What’s a gravel bike, how’s it different, and why a gravel bike

[velotel]

Almost a year and a half of riding my stoner bike. Time flies. So various thoughts on what makes a gravel bike and what makes them different.

First off, the bike’s friggin awesome. That’s probably true for gravel bikes in general but since I only know mine, I only know what mine is, literally a rejuvenation of my love of riding a bike.

What the heck is a gravel bike. The honest, straight-up answer is a gravel bike is any damn bike you ride on dirt/rock/gravel roads. End of subject. Which is boring.

So here’s what my gravel bike is, and isn’t. It’s not a cross bike nor a rigid mountain bike with drop bars nor a road bike with spacing for fat tires. It’s its own genre but with genes straight out of road bikes. I have two Eriksens, one a pure road bike Kent designed and built for me in 07, the second what I call my stoner bike, again designed by Kent and built by Kent and Brad in 016. When Kent and I were talking about what I wanted, I told him I absolutely didn’t want the bike’s performance on pavement compromised. I wanted a bike that would rip off high cols with perfect stability, that would carve sweet, unwavering curves, that would track straighter than me.

My mixed rides are generally 80-85% on pavement. I’ve only done two rides where the percentage on dirt was greater. One, over in Italy on the mountains above Oulx, was maybe 85-90% dirt but that was exceptional, in every respect. Of my rides here in France only once did the dirt surpass 50%, barely. Thus my emphasis on the bike’s performance on asphalt.

Since receiving the bike my ideas on gravel bikes have evolved. Not in terms of my thoughts on the bike’s performance for pavement, just on what I ride. Originally all I had in mind was a road bike I could mount fatter tires on for a bit more comfort on dirt roads connecting paved roads. Like what I call the High Traverse, 8K of dirt between the Col du Chaussy and Col de la Madeleine roads, and the Grand Traverse, 15K of dirt and rock between Col de l’Arpettaz and Col des Aravis.

I’d ridden both those roads several times with my road bike wearing 700x25 and 700x28 tires (labeled sizes, not measured) and saw no need for a so-called gravel bike. But after Kent and my son ganged up and decided I was indeed getting a gravel bike, I managed to give Kent some vague idea of what I imagined an ideal gravel bike would be. The rest I left to Kent.

The bike arrived, beautifully boxed up by Jim at Vecchio’s. My friend Sylvain put it together. The fit was perfect, exactly what I hoped for. Not too long after that I rode the Grand Traverse. Blew me away. Night and day. The bike was faster, smoother, way more stable, yet nimble as a rabbit getting chased by dogs. I mean it was like I was on this super road bike only it wasn’t a road bike, it was a new kind of bike, one that ripped up dirt roads then burned down paved descents. I call it my Stoner Bike because it rolls over stones so well and because the name makes me laugh.

It turned out to be so incredible in the dirt that I soon started searching out dirt roads to ride and then figuring out what normal roads would get me to them and back. Then I started riding trails, as in hiking trails, as in single-tracks. Within limits. My stoner bike is not a mountain bike and I’m wonderfully content with that. The trails I ride are tame compared to what mountain bikers search out. Trails that are taking me into some crazy beautiful places that I’d otherwise never see without hiking there. And all because my son and Kent decided I needed a gravel bike.

In short my stoner bike has expanded my playground.

The bike with its slightly tweaked geometry and fat, soft tires has also transformed rasty ol pavement into glide city. Cracks and holes and bumps that rattle and shake a standard road bike on standard tires are brushed off by my stoner bike like they’re barely even there. And those damn cracks running up the pavement instead of across, the ones that can take a bike down in a flash, I barely even give those a glance now. This was big time appreciated last time I was riding in the hills in eastern Italy where the roads are a mess. Combination of weather, unstable land, and lean budgets. My stoner bike purred over them.

So as sweet as my stoner bike is on dirt roads and trails, it remains a beautiful road bike, something I can forget in my enthusiasm for exploring dirt. Until I do a twisting plunge off some col and suddenly think, damn, I’d forgotten what a joy this bike is on the road!

The differences in geometry between my two Eriksens are subtle but make the stoner bike feel like a different breed of bike.

The following dimensions are what I measured with the bikes sitting on the floor. At times they’re almost estimates because identifying the center of a tube isn’t all that clear.

The stoner bike’s chainstays are 16mm longer, front-center 14mm longer. The stoner bike’s BB is also 17mm higher from floor to centerline of the BB (measured with tires). Floor to top of the handlebar is 16mm higher on the stoner bike. Floor to top of saddle is the same on both bikes. Distance from tip of the saddle to center line of handlebar is 3mm shorter on the stoner bike (same make, model of saddle and positioning on both bikes). Head angle is 1° shallower on the stoner bike (71.9 vs 72.9), seat angle 0.5° steeper on the stoner bike (73.6 vs 73.1). The angles come off the original drawings for the bikes.

The stoner bike feels more compact, applying pressure on the front end easier which I consider of prime importance in the dirt. The front wheel is the guide and to do the job correctly it needs pressure on it. Shifting weight between front and back wheels is easier. The ever so slightly longer chain stays don’t, contrary to what some like to think, diminish traction in climbs one iota. The bike is also much more comfortable riding in the drops where I now spend a lot of time, even in climbs, standing or seated. I like that. In the dirt when conditions become technical, as in rocky and line picking required or maneuvering through a tight forest, etc., I’m in the drops. That’s my power position, especially in climbs that are technical or traction is sketchy.

Kent used different tubes for the stoner bike. Oversized chainstays (1-inch), oversized steerer tube for an Enve tapered cross fork (1,5-inch as I recall), oversized down tube (44mm) and top tube (38mm). Those were Kent’s recommendations. I was like hey, I’m old, I’m not some power guy on a bike, what do I need all that extra strength for. I went with his call anyway and, contrary to what I was afraid of, the bike doesn’t know the word harsh, obviously aided by the fat, soft tires. It’s stunningly stable no matter what the road throws up. In technical sections and especially in climbs where explosive, wrenching torque can be applied to the front end of the bike both by me forcing my way through and over rocks and such and by the terrain itself, the front end is pure stability.

But best of all the stoner bike makes me feel young again. At age 72 anything that does that is to be treasured. Makes me feel like a kid playing hooky from school.

The thing with riding dirt and rock roads and single-tracks that I absolutely adore is the need for laser focus, for riding on instinct, not thinking about which line to follow, just knowing and going. If I have to think, it’s too late. Like skiing a mogul field, running rapids, catching a big wave, etc., everything is coming in so fast that if you’re not in the moment, perfectly synched with where you are, what you’re doing, what’s coming at you, you’re off the back and staggering around like a drunk walking across ice. But when you’re in the zone, hitting the notes with crystalline clarity, everything falls into place with an ease that can never be forced. Doesn’t happen all the time but when I slip into that zone, I love it.

I missed that road riding where the zone is, at least for me, completely different. On asphalt it’s about being in tune with your body, settled in on the bike, sensing the energy flowing through the legs and arms and driving the bike with a fluid ease and strength that can be addictive. But you’re never dancing on that edge of disaster that permeates technical trail riding. I like that buzz on the edge. The stoner bike lets me play there, like a kid daring life.

Kent nailed the design for me; it’s exactly the bike I wanted. He knew my riding style from back in 80’s riding mountain bikes together, knew how I loved picking lines, using finesse instead of power, and he perfectly transferred all that into my stoner bike. It fits me like the proverbial glove with the characteristics that perfectly match my riding style. For all of that I owe him a huge thanks.

Which is why I invariably tell someone who asks that in my opinion the finest gravel bikes are custom built by people with years of experience building and riding road bikes and non-suspended mountain bikes, as in no suspension fork. They’re the ones who can understand the subtle differences between the performance needs on pavement and on dirt and can blend those needs into one bike. It’s not about simply building a road bike for fat tires and disc brakes (which I didn’t go with) or putting drop bars on a non-suspended mountain bike or simply re-labeling a cross bike and building it with disc brakes. Or that’s my perspective.

As an aside, my stoner bike reminds me of one of Richard Cunningham’s earliest Mantis bikes. It was totally different than all the other mountain bikes at the time with, as I recall, 72° head and seat tubes and a short stem. Felt like a road bike built for trails and I loved it. This was in ’83 or ‘84 and it was a test bike for an article. I was bummed when shortly afterwards he changed his bikes’ geometries to more like the norm. That first Mantis was one great handling mountain bike.

Anyway, Kent and Brad aren’t the only builders out there with strong road and mountain bike experiences. There’s a bunch of them, some of them with long histories, some with newer histories. Kent was my builder of choice mostly because of years of friendship and respect for what a damned fine rider and builder he is. I could have gone with Steve Potts just as easily for the same reasons but at the time his frame building business was going through some transition stages. For me a huge reason for going with one builder over another is knowing the guy personally. I like riding a bike built by a friend who I love riding with and who I know kicks ass on a bike. It doesn’t make the bike any damn better obviously but whenever I look at his name on the bike, good memories can come floating to the surface.

I’m sure a lot of the big companies are putting out some fine riding gravel bikes based on whatever criteria they think is important. My friend Max can kick my butt any day with his Canyon gravel bike. Moots is obviously a company with one of the deepest wells of experience in the dirt and on asphalt and as it happened, it was on a Routt out of Vecchio’s that swung me into thinking gravel bikes were pretty cool.

Bottom line is we all know it’s the rider, not the bike, and I’m just this old guy snorting around in the dirt on a bike that is way beyond my needs and abilities so any opinions I have on the subject need to be looked at with that in mind. But oh man do I love riding my stoner bike! It just flat knocks me straight to paradise every time I’m on it, even when I’m riding so poorly I have to apologize to it afterwards. Like I already said, the bike absolutely rejuvenated my passion for riding. I can’t think of a higher complement than that.

The only problem is that now I feel really bad for my orange Eriksen, the pure road bike. It just hangs there, not forgotten but thoroughly ignored. Which is rather mean on my part. The bike took me to so many wonderful places, gave me super rides, and now in gratitude I replace it with a new one and just let it hang upside down by the wheels! Maybe I’ll sell it, hopefully to someone who will take it to places as spectacular as the ones the orange bike and I visited.

Some pics of the bikes in the kind of places they like to go, two of the orange road bike, the rest the red stoner bike.

[VTR1000SP2]

I feel the same way in that a gravel bike should and would replace the most frequently used bike in a stable. In this respect, a gravel bike for me has to fit well enough to facilitate long days in the saddle, precise handling, and swift efforts when required. Additionally, tire clearance is possibly the one focal trend these days. 27.5 x 2.1 or 700 x 40 being the 2018 way but with room for fenders.

I personally have tried the GT Grade, Trek Crockett, and the Giant TCX but am still looking.

Next up is the Ibis Hakka MX. Have one on order. Hope this ticks all the boxes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tommasini53]

I enjoyed the writing. I'm curious what type of brakes you are using on the stoner bike? I'm building up a gravel bike with rim brakes and friends have recommended Paul Components for brake options. Great photos...enjoy. :banana:

[cribbit]

no disc brakes 0/10

JK sweet bike

I wish I had areas to ride off road so I could justify getting one.

[fignon's barber]

Great write up. I always look forward to your posts and have thought what a great advertisement you are for Eriksen.
On a side note, do you still have copies of Switchbacks for sale?

[572cv]

I had it easy. Once Hank posted pictures of his new stoner bike, I was done. I contacted Kent Eriksen and asked him if he would mind too much building another, basically the same goals. My stateside Eriksen has the fat chain stays too, and the tubing is tuned to the location and goal of stability and stiffness. One other thing that impressed me was the concern Kent and Brad had for how the bike LOOKED. They wanted the size of everything to be relational, the flow of each tube to the next to have the right panache, the right sense to the discerning eye.

So, like Hank's, it too is friggin awesome....just an amazing bike every time i get on it. Lots of dirt roads around here used to be tolerable. Now they are fast and fun. , e don't have as many high cols and stunning views, but there are some reasonably lofty back roads which are all dirt. One route I had stopped riding much was a loop that goes over Smugglers Notch, then back through Stowe and down Rt 100 to Waterbury and back to Richmond (VT, natch). But Route 100 is nasty with traffic these days and Rt 2 from Waterbury to Richmond isn't so great. But the dirt alternatives...wow, they make the ride. Instead of Rt 100, there's a climb up to the height of land parallel to rt 100 to the east, then down through Waterbury Center. Then from Waterbury, the old river road south of the Winooski through Jonesville to Richmond, no traffic, beautiful views and Bob's your uncle. One does not think twice about using the stoner bike.

My set up is a little different. I have Paul Mini-motos which I love; Hank has TRPs if I remember. But neither of us went with discs. He's a Campy guy. I settled in with Shimano many years ago when they were a team sponsor, and have Dura Ace on the Eriksen. I don't know what he uses for pedals or a seat or bars; I'm on Time ATAC12, a Power seat, and Enve bars. I'm trying out different tires and wheels, so no conclusions there yet. The current set up is Ardennes LT plus w 32 Barlow Pass (I think that's the name/size).

My Eriksen arrived around this time last year, so I have a year on it. Having a bike made for me may only have been a once in a lifetime experience, but it has been so eye opening, so worthwhile. As Hank said, getting a bike that makes you feel like a kid again is a wonderful thing in and of itself. There is really great builder, and there are a reasonable number, including D.Kirk who contributes so much to this forum, in the country, who would love to get to know you and your needs and hopes. I am really grateful for all of them.

[Tommasini53]

I've heard good reviews of both Paul's Mini-Motos and TRP brakes. Did either of you feel like you needed to use a Problem Solvers Travel Agent with these brakes?

[Kontact]

What would characterize the difference between gravel and rando bikes?

[572cv]

I've heard good reviews of both Paul's Mini-Motos and TRP brakes. Did either of you feel like you needed to use a Problem Solvers Travel Agent with these brakes?

The Mini-moto's work perfectly with the DA levers, which I think they were designed to do. No travel agent needed. I think the same is true with the TRPs, same general style of brake.

I really like the modulation on the Minimoto set up.

[nobuseri]

I see some thought went in to this OP. Props.
Definitely some perspective on the subject.

I will admit I am building a cross bike - mainly for cross racing, but would like it to check the “gravel” box also. Going back and forth on 1x vs 2x so I can hit the sustained gravel climbs. Will have to reread this post and see if I can get a bit more out of it.

Maybe I can’t combine the two. :)

Nice pics. Good riding out there; I can tell by the photos.

[weisan]

Stoner = GADA (Go Anywhere, Do Anything)

[velotel]

I enjoyed the writing. I'm curious what type of brakes you are using on the stoner bike? I'm building up a gravel bike with rim brakes and friends have recommended Paul Components for brake options. Great photos...enjoy. :banana:
TRP mini-V brakes. Went with those because aesthetically I like their look. Paul's are supposed to be excellent but in my eyes they're also a bit ugly, no style. The TRP's have a nice style to my eyes. And they've worked great with zero problems.

[velotel]

Great write up. I always look forward to your posts and have thought what a great advertisement you are for Eriksen.
On a side note, do you still have copies of Switchbacks for sale?
Your's is for me by far the best forum name of all. Fantastic. And yea, I believe there are still a few copies. Go to here to order. (http://velodogs-publishing.com)

[velotel]

Nice looking bike, of course, but that road is entirely too smooth! It's pretty cool the way these bikes let us avoid road with cars. And more fun. Cheers

[velotel]

I've heard good reviews of both Paul's Mini-Motos and TRP brakes. Did either of you feel like you needed to use a Problem Solvers Travel Agent with these brakes?
Apparently not since I have no idea what those even are. Used with Campy levers.

What would characterize the difference between gravel and rando bikes?
I don't really know but from what I've seen as a rule I think rando bikes are basically gravel bikes you can tour with, as in with panniers and go camping.

[Kontact]

The TRP Mini-Vs have shorter arms than regular V-brakes so they use more standard road/canti cable travel. Travel Agents change the lever pull ratio so road or canti levers can actuate and standard V-brakes.


So it sounds like a gravel bike is an endurance bike with a higher BB and canti-mounts.

[cribbit]

The TRP Mini-Vs have shorter arms than regular V-brakes so they use more standard road/canti cable travel. Travel Agents change the lever pull ratio so road or canti levers can actuate and standard V-brakes.


So it sounds like a gravel bike is an endurance bike with a higher BB and canti-mounts.

A common thought of gravel bikes is disc brakes.

Higher bb is nice but not required.

[Kontact]

It sounds like anything could be a gravel bike as long as it works for the rider.

[cribbit]

It sounds like anything could be a gravel bike as long as it works for the rider.

You could say the same of any type of bike though.

What "works for the rider" tends to have patterns across many riders, leading to common suggestions.

For gravel the only thing "required" would be thicker tires, everything else is personal preference (crazy people (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z1fSpZNXhU) might still use thin tires but you get the idea). It's basically a mix of a road and mountain bike where you choose the features you want, especially since not everyone's terrain is the same.

Going on muddier or wetter terrain? Probably going to really want disc brakes over rim brakes and a titanium frame over something that can rust/corrode. Doing big bumps rather than just dirt/gravel? Probably going to go for suspension at least in the front and raised bb might be of more desire. Drop bars or flat bars are mostly personal preference, influenced also by terrain and how many downhills you have. How wide of tires depends on terrain and personal preference.

[paredown]

This thread makes me want to buy an Eriksen!

Oh, and be Hank too.

[weisan]

More than anything else, the free spirit of adventure, curiosity, exploration, risk-taking, and a deep appreciation for beauty, humanity and the surroundings - all of that which comes through clearly and regularly in velotel's writing and pictures, that's what makes a gravel bike a gravel bike.

[oldpotatoe]

You could say the same of any type of bike though.

What "works for the rider" tends to have patterns across many riders, leading to common suggestions.

For gravel the only thing "required" would be thicker tires, everything else is personal preference (crazy people (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z1fSpZNXhU) might still use thin tires but you get the idea). It's basically a mix of a road and mountain bike where you choose the features you want, especially since not everyone's terrain is the same.

Going on muddier or wetter terrain? Probably going to really want disc brakes over rim brakes and a titanium frame over something that can rust/corrode. Doing big bumps rather than just dirt/gravel? Probably going to go for suspension at least in the front and raised bb might be of more desire. Drop bars or flat bars are mostly personal preference, influenced also by terrain and how many downhills you have. How wide of tires depends on terrain and personal preference.

'Gravel', as in dirt road?..I ride dirt roads around the republic all the time with 25mm Vittoria Corsa Elites, on a Moots Vamoots and Merckx MXLeader..Friend of mine just did L'Eroica on same w/o any issue, on a 1980s something Merckx. Nice fat tires 'may' work 'better', but certainly not a requirement.

Wet, muddy, sloppy, a different scenario..as mentioned. But riding on a dirt road..anything works.

BUT, can't talk about 'gravel grindng' or GRoad bikes w/o the marketing blather..'gotta haves'..discs, tapered fork, thru axles, fat tires, 1 by, blah, blah...:)

[simplemind]

Subscribed...as in I subscribe!

[merlinmurph]

Great to hear some bike love, Hank. You're an inspiration for all of us.

I feel the same way about my Seven Evergreen I got a little over a year ago. I have a whole list of things I used to rationalize the purchase, but the most convincing one was that we were going on a 6+ month trip around the USA and I wanted a bike for dirt and road. With two sets of wheels, the bike is perfect. 25/28mm tires for the road and 40mm for dirt. I did some gorgeous road rides, like the mountains around Napa Valley, and some memorable dirt rides, like the singletrack in LaPine OR, the dirt roads in Custer SP in SD, and the Mickelson bike trail in SD.

Locally, we have a lot of trails and lots of nice roads, and the bike is a blast. Now that it's colder out, I head to the woods more and can keep warm.

Enjoy your ride,
Murph

[572cv]

Nice looking bike, of course, but that road is entirely too smooth! It's pretty cool the way these bikes let us avoid road with cars. And more fun. Cheers

Well, the road getting to that point was rougher and steeper. Hits 18%. But the light wasn't nearly as good !

[wc1934]

I enjoyed the writing. I'm curious what type of brakes you are using on the stoner bike? I'm building up a gravel bike with rim brakes and friends have recommended Paul Components for brake options. Great photos...enjoy. :banana:

I'm curious about your pedals - what are you using?

[GRAVELBIKE]

If you have a bike, and you ride it on gravel/dirt roads, it's a gravel bike. Hell, more than a few of the big brands' "gravel" models are essentially disc-equipped road bikes with different tires and a wider-range cassette.

[oldpotatoe]

If you have a bike, and you ride it on gravel/dirt roads, it's a gravel bike. Hell, more than a few of the big brands' "gravel" models are essentially disc-equipped road bikes with different tires and a wider-range cassette.

From 'Gravelbike'...he knows...:)

How are the wheels?

[GRAVELBIKE]

From 'Gravelbike'...he knows...:)

How are the wheels?

The wheels are splendid. And I'm really glad I/we opted for the silver spokes. It's a nice change of pace from the all-black look.

[Clancy]

Not too long ago, there were mountain bikes, now there are Trail, XC, Enduro, Downhill with varying specs within each category. Each of these is quite a bit different from the others with different geometry and component specs. These are not the same bikes with minor tweaks and different branding but different designed bikes for different purposes.

Can someone go mountain biking on a 90's Stumpjumper? Sure.

Can someone take any bike, go out on a trail and say they're mountain biking? Sure.

But does a MTB specifically designed for an intended terrain and purpose outperform. No argument - or if you do you're either a curmudgeon or just like to argue.

The point is that The Gravel Bike has evolved (and will continue to evolve) into its own specific genre.

I often will dart down a gravel road on my road bike with 25c tires and rim brakes, works just fine.

But if I'm going out on a true dedicated gravel ride I'm taking my disc brake equipped gravel bike with 38c Gravel Kings designed with much different geometry. The gravel roads in The Texas Hillcountry are rutted, washboard, stretches of deep sand, often very rocky with baby head size rocks. Best enjoyed on a dedicated gravel bike.

I'm sure there are gravel roads in many parts of the country that are more like paved roads but only dustier, rougher, and no traffic. Those don't require a dedicated gravel bike. Just like an easy flat trail in a neighbor park doesn't require a full suspension MTB with long travel.

We are far into the era of specialization. Argue all you want as to the drive for this, marketing hype, excessive consumerism, whatever.

And as far as The Gravel Bike is concerned, it's now firmly established as its own unique family of bikes. For good or bad.

For me, it's good.

[Clancy]

And, to take this in a slightly different direction.....

In the 90's, the bike industry was on the ropes when the advent of the mountain bike along with associated innovations and improvements gave the industry a life line. Plus brought in an entirely different segment of riders, clothing, equipment, etc., into cycling.

Lance (apologies for bringing his name up) brought in a resurgence of interest and participation in road cycling along with the advent of what might be termed the "modern safety bicycle" with carbon fiber becoming dominant along with increased technological advances not seen before. (Road segment was arguably dormant during the 70's-90's compared to the explosion of advancements during the early 2000's onward)

Now we have gravel bikes. It's not too far fetched that this will develop into a segment of cycling as big and unique to its own as to what happened to mountain biking in the 90's and onward.

And meanwhile it's giving a much needed lifeline to the industry during a fairly severe downturn in the market- not unlike what happened in the 90's.

I think I've had too much coffee. Enough philosophical nonsense.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Just a good observation. I think there's a good sized segment of the market that is . . .

--put off at riding busy roads because of traffic, distracted drivers, etc.

--put off at the gonzo aspect of MTB and the technical riding challenges.

Both of these demographic groups would be interested in solving some valid objections that prevent people from entering the serious cycling world. These bikes will do pretty much everything that needs to be done for the average practical recreational or avid cyclist.

BBD

[joosttx]

The first gravel bike I had with intentions of riding on dirt roads was and IF Ti Club Racer with canti brakes- a relaxed geo road bike which could fit 33mm tires. My old Bilenky had to same geo as my Vanilla, an early SpeedVagen road bike, which could fit 33mm tires and use Paul's racer medium brakes. Now I have a disc bike brake with geo similar to my Vanilla and Club Racer. This bike can fit 38mm tires. I am pretty satisfied with this. I have ridden the single tracks of Mt Tam on 28's for about a year and a half. You can ride gravel on skinny tires especially if the gravel is more like

The other thing that is important to me is gearing. I always run compact cranks of the gravel bikes but progressed from 28 to 32 to 34 tooth cassette. Where I ride there are plenty of hills and steep ones plus plenty of road to ride. Having a wide gear range works very well for me.

Gravel means a lot of things to a lot of people. The gravel roads in New England are far different than here in Norcal.

[Geekonbike]

My "Gravel" Bike setup is;

For Rougher Roads (Northern Virginia Dirt Roads, Light Singletrack) - Gunnar Crosshairs with Mini Vs steel fork HED Belgium + Wheels and 46x36 & 11x32 Gearing. Compass 32c Tires

For Smoothish Gravel (Minnesota Roads and Crushed Gravel) and Less than Stellar Pavement - Regular Steel Road Bike with clearance for 28-30s. 50x34 11x32

I've found that when it comes to gravel bikes simple is always better. I'm a bit of a retro grouch but the specialization of gravel bikes with thru axles, discs and really large tires (bigger than my Mountain Bike from the 90's ) is really distracting. From what I've seen riding with others it is better to have similar equipment....I've loaned out many a tube to riding buddies.

I should also say that I'm not a big guy so I don't tend to be real hard on equipment so Braking has never been a concern for me and Neither has pinch flatting so super big volume tires not needed

[Kontact]

Since this thread I've been looking at what different makers think a gravel bike is, and really it is just fatter tires, longish stays and possibly some sort strongers break.

Growing up all the rails to trails paths were gravel. We road our "sport touring" 27 inch wheel road bikes on them with no consideration that a different kind of bike would be more comfortable or safer.


I think, but could be wrong, that there are two forces at work here:
A reaction to overly stiff road bikes that can't accept larger than a 23c tire, and the enjoyment many people have in being the members of exclusive club.

The old Lemond brand philosophy of all day comfort and some decent tire clearance pretty much does what gravel bikers need, and that sort of road race bike never actually went away. Many road bikes today have longer stays than the average in the '90s (405 to 415 now), and dual pivot brakes are really powerful stoppers now.

So I would be interested in how poorly served a gravel biker would be if they just built up something like an entry level Lynskey sport road frame with 28c tires. I'm having a hard time imagining the issues they'd encounter compared to a specialty gravel bike. I don't say that to knock the dedicated gravel bike, but just to say that the price of entry to the gravel world might just be a pair of tires and some Swissstops.

[fignon's barber]

When you think about it, if you're not actually racing crits/circuits/rr , a gravel bike is the one to own.

[Kontact]

When you think about it, if you're not actually racing crits/circuits/rr , a gravel bike is the one to own.

Even if you are racing, what is a bike with slightly longer stays going to do that will prevent your win?

[tv_vt]

My gravel-dirt road-travel bike is a Hampsten ti Strada Bianca with couplers. Has a Seven mid-reach 5e fork with TRP RG957 caliper brakes. Not huge clearance as far as tires go, but a 700x32 clears easily, and some 35s do too.

Great do-it-all bike.

Would be curious to hear about the best dirt road clincher tires @ 700x28-700x32 size range.

[tv_vt]

...the price of entry to the gravel world might just be a pair of tires and some Swissstops.

I would agree with that. Larger tires and you're good to go. (Not sure what the reference to brake pads is referring to.)

[BikeNY]

Since this thread I've been looking at what different makers think a gravel bike is, and really it is just fatter tires, longish stays and possibly some sort strongers break.

Growing up all the rails to trails paths were gravel. We road our "sport touring" 27 inch wheel road bikes on them with no consideration that a different kind of bike would be more comfortable or safer.


I think, but could be wrong, that there are two forces at work here:
A reaction to overly stiff road bikes that can't accept larger than a 23c tire, and the enjoyment many people have in being the members of exclusive club.

The old Lemond brand philosophy of all day comfort and some decent tire clearance pretty much does what gravel bikers need, and that sort of road race bike never actually went away. Many road bikes today have longer stays than the average in the '90s (405 to 415 now), and dual pivot brakes are really powerful stoppers now.

So I would be interested in how poorly served a gravel biker would be if they just built up something like an entry level Lynskey sport road frame with 28c tires. I'm having a hard time imagining the issues they'd encounter compared to a specialty gravel bike. I don't say that to knock the dedicated gravel bike, but just to say that the price of entry to the gravel world might just be a pair of tires and some Swissstops.

It all depends what your definition of 'gravel' is! If you are just riding perfectly graded dirt roads, than your assessment is correct. If, like myself, and I think many others as well, your definition is much broader, wider tires and better brakes are really nice to have. I'm talking rutted dirt doubletracks and such. For me, bigger tires just make long days on the bike so much more comfortable and pleasant. I may give up a bit of speed on the pavement, but I'm OK with that.

[Kontact]

It all depends what your definition of 'gravel' is! If you are just riding perfectly graded dirt roads, than your assessment is correct. If, like myself, and I think many others as well, your definition is much broader, wider tires and better brakes are really nice to have. I'm talking rutted dirt doubletracks and such. For me, bigger tires just make long days on the bike so much more comfortable and pleasant. I may give up a bit of speed on the pavement, but I'm OK with that.

I think it comes down to the size tires we're talking about. Anywhere you can ride a minimal tread 28c tire, you can probably get away with a modern road rim brake. If such a tire does not offer enough traction, you are in the cross world.

I'd actually be interested in what the relative grip to rim braking power of different kinds of brakes. I wouldn't be surprised if cantis actually don't do anything more than a double pivot brake does. A lot of brake selection has to do with tire or much clearance.

I've taken 23c tires on singletrack. There is no obvious point when a standard road bike suddenly becomes uncontrollable. Look at the cobbles the pros have always ridden.

[mbrtool]

I bought an Ellis Strada a few years ago that has clearance for Nokian 52mm tires...I bought it to ride in the winter. He measured my Ottrott to nail down the dimensions...so it's pretty close to a road bike. Dave put Vittoria 32mm's when I picked it up that July so I could ride it right away. The bike is a joy to ride both on pavement, D2R2 and snow. As Weisan posted on the definition of a gravel bike..this is mine.

Ray

[BikeNY]

I think it comes down to the size tires we're talking about. Anywhere you can ride a minimal tread 28c tire, you can probably get away with a modern road rim brake. If such a tire does not offer enough traction, you are in the cross world.

I'd actually be interested in what the relative grip to rim braking power of different kinds of brakes. I wouldn't be surprised if cantis actually don't do anything more than a double pivot brake does. A lot of brake selection has to do with tire or much clearance.

I've taken 23c tires on singletrack. There is no obvious point when a standard road bike suddenly becomes uncontrollable. Look at the cobbles the pros have always ridden.

I don't run wider tires for more traction, I ride them because they are way better at smoothing out rutted rocky 'roads'. I'm talking 42mm to 48mm wide tires here.

Sure, you can ride 23mm tires on singletrack, at least some very tame singletrack, but it will be much more fun and much safer on wider tires.

Same reason why the pros are now riding those cobbles on 28mm or even wider tires now, instead of on the 23mm tires they used to use.

[Kontact]

I don't run wider tires for more traction, I ride them because they are way better at smoothing out rutted rocky 'roads'. I'm talking 42mm to 48mm wide tires here.

Sure, you can ride 23mm tires on singletrack, at least some very tame singletrack, but it will be much more fun and much safer on wider tires.

Same reason why the pros are now riding those cobbles on 28mm or even wider tires now, instead of on the 23mm tires they used to use.

I'm not saying to use 23c tires, I'm saying that a 150 pound rider only needs 75 psi in 28c tires, so how low a pressure do you want to run? Are you riding long distances at 30 psi?

[BikeNY]

I'm not saying to use 23c tires, I'm saying that a 150 pound rider only needs 75 psi in 28c tires, so how low a pressure do you want to run? Are you riding long distances at 30 psi?

I want to run much lower than 75 psi. When I was running 42mm tires I was running between 40 and 50 psi. I only have a couple of rides on my new 48mm tires, but I'll certainly be going under 40. And yes, riding long distances sometimes. I did a 90 mile ride a few weeks ago at 14psi! Oh wait, that was on 3" wide tires!

[Clancy]

I'm not saying to use 23c tires, I'm saying that a 150 pound rider only needs 75 psi in 28c tires, so how low a pressure do you want to run? Are you riding long distances at 30 psi?

Back to the new classification of Gravel Bike

Yes you can take an old steel road frame, put 28's on there, and ride gravel roads, but that's not a gravel bike. It's an old steel road bike that you're riding on gravel.

And a gravel bike is not a road bike with a little longer chain stays.

Yes you can take a gravel bike and do a crit. Why would you I have no idea, but you could. It doesn't turn it into a crit bike just because you're riding a crit.

My Salsa Vaya has very different geometry than a road bike. It is a gravel bike. I use Panaracer Gravelkings that I run tubeless at around 28-30 psi. It would be miserable to ride that thing on pavement for a 100 miles, much less 30.

There are a lot of manufacturers jumping into the gravel bike market and the category is broad and not yet that clearly defined. My Salsa Vaya vs a Salsa Cutthroat vs an Open U.P. vs....

What a lot of people are saying are gravel bikes are road bikes adapted to ride gravel. Slapping tri bars on a road bike does not make it a TT bike, it makes it a road bike that you can do time trails on.

With all that said, an old steel frame that will fit 28c tires makes a great and fun bike to go exploring back roads and gravel roads. My first real adventures were on a Gunnar with 28c cross tires.

I rode the first Crusher. People showed up on cross bikes and MTB's. This was at the infancy of the gravel bike, cobbling parts together. Since then there's been an explosion of advances in this area. And what you'll see lining up this year will be nothing like the first year.

What I firmly believe we are in the midst of is an establishing of a whole new family of bicycles along with gear, clothing, and events aimed specifically at this category and style of riding. In my area of the Texas Hill Country, San Antonio/Austin area, there was not a single organized "Gravel Ride" 8-10 years ago. Now there are a dozen or more in my area.

I'm willing to bet we'll see a dedicated organization come about that will govern gravel racing and we'll see more and more marquee events such as the Grinduro. There will be much debate, arguments, and wringing of hands but in 5-10 more years, this segment will not look anything like it does today.

I'd even go so far as to say that the push by individuals, small builders, component manufacturers and bike companies to develop this market has brought about more innovations in the last few years than any other segment of the market.

This is a new category and I believe we will see it grow into a highly unique category all of its own. In the end, if it expands the sport of cycling, that's a good thing.

Geez, I need to quit drinking so much coffee! Back to looking at the classifieds.

[simplemind]

In my area of the Texas Hill Country, San Antonio/Austin area, there was not a single organized "Gravel Ride" 8-10 years ago. Now there are a dozen or more in my area.
.

I'm in your wheelhouse as well and I would like to know your sources of local rides and/or websites such as Bike MoJo - Texas Bike Forum.

[Clancy]

Here's a few to get you going.

http://www.spinistry.net

Spinistry, puts on lots of events, well organized.

https://www.facebook.com/IcemansChallengeGravelPursuit/

I signed up for that one, going to be a suffer fest.

Also check Bicycle Sport Shop, they put on the Holy Roller every year, great event right outside Austin - in Bastrop.

http://www.castellgrind.com

You missed out on signing up for the Castell Grind, sells out in minutes. A waiting list is available. Super fun event.

Search Facebook for the San Antonio gravelriders - good stuff.

Try searching Facebook for the Austin equivalent.

Wait 6 months, then look again. They're probably be much more. It's growing at an unbelievable rate.

And, to continue to drive home my point about the specificity of gravel bikes. The Castell grind is 90% gravel with long sections of deep sand. Riders with plus size tires were riding those sections while those on cross bikes or adapted bikes where running it. (Or falling!) The Holy Roller is more 50/50 but with stretches of gravel that have fist size to baby head size rocks. I've not ridden the Iceman, but I anticipate fast stretches of smooth gravel.

Horses for courses

A dedicated gravel bike capable of running 32's-47's or 700/650B wheels, sub-compact 2X with a large cassette, or a 1X set-up, specific geometry, will handle any of those conditions and handle them well. A road bike with 28's could handle parts but be a serious handicap in other stretches.

I could not imagine riding the Castell grind on a road bike, be miserable.

[Kontact]

Back to the new classification of Gravel Bike

Yes you can take an old steel road frame, put 28's on there, and ride gravel roads, but that's not a gravel bike. It's an old steel road bike that you're riding on gravel.

And a gravel bike is not a road bike with a little longer chain stays.

Yes you can take a gravel bike and do a crit. Why would you I have no idea, but you could. It doesn't turn it into a crit bike just because you're riding a crit.

My Salsa Vaya has very different geometry than a road bike. It is a gravel bike. I use Panaracer Gravelkings that I run tubeless at around 28-30 psi. It would be miserable to ride that thing on pavement for a 100 miles, much less 30.

There are a lot of manufacturers jumping into the gravel bike market and the category is broad and not yet that clearly defined. My Salsa Vaya vs a Salsa Cutthroat vs an Open U.P. vs....

What a lot of people are saying are gravel bikes are road bikes adapted to ride gravel. Slapping tri bars on a road bike does not make it a TT bike, it makes it a road bike that you can do time trails on.

With all that said, an old steel frame that will fit 28c tires makes a great and fun bike to go exploring back roads and gravel roads. My first real adventures were on a Gunnar with 28c cross tires.

I rode the first Crusher. People showed up on cross bikes and MTB's. This was at the infancy of the gravel bike, cobbling parts together. Since then there's been an explosion of advances in this area. And what you'll see lining up this year will be nothing like the first year.

What I firmly believe we are in the midst of is an establishing of a whole new family of bicycles along with gear, clothing, and events aimed specifically at this category and style of riding. In my area of the Texas Hill Country, San Antonio/Austin area, there was not a single organized "Gravel Ride" 8-10 years ago. Now there are a dozen or more in my area.

I'm willing to bet we'll see a dedicated organization come about that will govern gravel racing and we'll see more and more marquee events such as the Grinduro. There will be much debate, arguments, and wringing of hands but in 5-10 more years, this segment will not look anything like it does today.

I'd even go so far as to say that the push by individuals, small builders, component manufacturers and bike companies to develop this market has brought about more innovations in the last few years than any other segment of the market.

This is a new category and I believe we will see it grow into a highly unique category all of its own. In the end, if it expands the sport of cycling, that's a good thing.

Geez, I need to quit drinking so much coffee! Back to looking at the classifieds.
I get what you're saying, but did you look at the two Erikson's in the OP and a couple posts later? They don't sound like they meet your defintion of a gravel bike, either. I was saying that those two are so "road bikish" that their subtle geometry differences would not impact their performance with 25c tires in a road race.

I get that the Vaya is very different from a road bike, but it appears to be very different from the Erikson gravel bike, too.

[simplemind]

Here's a few to get you going.


Thanks Clancy, I will check your suggestions! :beer:

[GRAVELBIKE]

I'm glad that the Vaya has been mentioned in this thread. For me, it was the first gravel bike that wasn't just a rebadged CX rig. I hold it in such high regard that it's my gold standard when evaluating new gravel models.

[2metalhips]

I'm glad that the Vaya has been mentioned in this thread. For me, it was the first gravel bike that wasn't just a rebadged CX rig. I hold it in such high regard that it's my gold standard when evaluating new gravel models.

I have a first generation Vaya, the brown one, 2010. Back then they didn't even call it a gravel bike. Salsa deemed it an All Road/Any road adventure bike. Stiil a great ride.

[GRAVELBIKE]

I have a first generation Vaya, the brown one, 2010. Back then they didn't even call it a gravel bike. Salsa deemed it an All Road/Any road adventure bike. Stiil a great ride.

Nice. I loved the brown colorway. I've owned the charcoal grey and robin's egg blue ones, and rode them basically everywhere.

[BRad704]

Stoner = GADA (Go Anywhere, Do Anything)

I like it. Would make a good model name for a bike.

[adirik]

Like the OP, I have 2 Eriksens (road and gravel/stoner). The OP's earlier threads on his riding experiences and his relationship with Kent were an inspiration to me. Having met Kent and Brad in person at NAHBS several times, I trust them to build me a bike that meets my needs. The same can be said of the many reputable builders that are known on this forum.

Kent made my first road bike 8 years ago. With clearance for 28mm tires, I've ridden thousands of miles on both road and dirt.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171108/50beeabdbd4fcc1d25a8d5dbc494d146.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171108/7159008f24cdbed3fd82641765ecde0b.jpg

Earlier this year Brad Bingham (with input from Kent) made me a bike with disc brakes and clearance for 40mm tires. I told Brad I wanted a similar geometry as my road bike and the end result is a bike that is more versatile and can handle both fast road rides as well as technical singletrack (with appropriate wheelset/tire changes).

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171108/3445861820ce2d0f96d260fff10f0002.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171108/1aa951e0d637dca4a294f0ef11ee5165.jpg

I don't ride my Eriksen road bike much these days. The main thing I miss about it is the Campy drivetrain. Campy H11 wasn't available so I went with Ultegra Di2 disc, which is nice and has been trouble-free. As much as I want to try H11, I can't justify spending more money to switch. Maybe in a few years when (or if) prices drop. In the meantime, I'm going to ride the hell out of it :-)

[Clancy]

Kent Eriksen fabricates the finest Ti frames being produced today. There are a few builders that are as good, but no one better in my mind.

I owned an Eriksen that I purchased from the original owner, so it was not designed specifically for me. Was a sublime ride none the less.

I hope one day to have him build a custom and when I do, it will be designed virtually identical to yours.

Beautiful bikes!

[VTR1000SP2]

What about the Eriksen makes it better than a Moots?

[Kontact]

What about the Eriksen makes it better than a Moots?

That isn't what he said.

[VTR1000SP2]

That isn't what he said.


Someone else in the thread did though.

[adirik]

What about the Eriksen makes it better than a Moots?

I know this question isn't directed at me, but I think both are amazing bikes, and whenever I see a Moots ride by in the other direction I turn my head to check it out.

I went with Eriksen because I wanted to have a personal connection with the builder of my bike. And while I know Moots can do custom geometry for an upcharge, it's an inherent part of the Eriksen experience.

For my gravel bike, I considered a Moots Routt RSL because it has both the 40mm tire clearance and shorter chainstays that I wanted (which is a problem for people deciding between the regular Routt and the Routt 45). But I was concerned about the reliability of the 3D-printed dropouts and it was also more expensive than an Eriksen (even with stock geometry).

Anyway, whenever someone unfamiliar w/Eriksen asks me about my bike, I simply say it was "built by the guy who founded Moots" and they instantly understand :)

[VTR1000SP2]

Anyway, whenever someone unfamiliar w/Eriksen asks me about my bike, I simply say it was "built by the guy who founded Moots" and they instantly understand :)


Nice. I appreciate the response. I think I get it.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Clancy]

What about the Eriksen makes it better than a Moots?

There are few builders who are as good but no one better in my mind.

And in that camp I would include Strong, Moots, Spectrum, and I'm sure a few more I'm missing.

And a lot of great builders making outstanding bikes, including Gravel Bikes, out of steel. A lot of options out there for gravel now that weren't a few years ago.

I'd suggest the Salsa Fargo, killer gravel bike and bike Packing bike.

Trying to get back on topic.

[VTR1000SP2]

I'd suggest the Salsa Fargo, killer gravel bike and bike Packing bike.

Trying to get back on topic.

This thread has rekindled my love for Ti and on that note, a Salsa Warbird Ti would be quite lovely.

[velotel]

I get what you're saying, but did you look at the two Erikson's in the OP and a couple posts later? They don't sound like they meet your defintion of a gravel bike, either. I was saying that those two are so "road bikish" that their subtle geometry differences would not impact their performance with 25c tires in a road race.

I get that the Vaya is very different from a road bike, but it appears to be very different from the Erikson gravel bike, too.
You're right on that observation, the two bikes are very close, but also surprisingly different when on the bike. For me, which I think I made clear in the original post, a gravel bike or rather what I prefer to call a fat-tired road bike is totally a road bike. I mean a road bike is a wonderful ride with a superb and, to me, powerful position that's also super comfortable, depending on how it's set-up obviously. But riding dirt and especially rough roads and trails, and some of the stuff I ride is pretty rough with large and sharp-edge rocks (personally I prefer the terrain smoother for my old bod), requires in my opinion a modified geometry, but only a little modified. Just enough to optimize the handling characteristics on dirt and rock roads and on technical single-tracks. But it remains a road bike. Like I said in the original post, I've lost zero performance on the road while gaining the same level of performance on dirt and rocks. So, yea, you're correct, it's a road bike but a bit more like one those Porche 911's they build years and years ago to race whatever that race was in Mexico on dirt roads plus do some rallying. They were still absolutely 911's, just tweaked for the dirt. That's my Eriksen, a road bike tweaked for dirt, rocks, single-tracks

[BikeNY]

You're right on that observation, the two bikes are very close, but also surprisingly different when on the bike. For me, which I think I made clear in the original post, a gravel bike or rather what I prefer to call a fat-tired road bike is totally a road bike. I mean a road bike is a wonderful ride with a superb and, to me, powerful position that's also super comfortable, depending on how it's set-up obviously. But riding dirt and especially rough roads and trails, and some of the stuff I ride is pretty rough with large and sharp-edge rocks (personally I prefer the terrain smoother for my old bod), requires in my opinion a modified geometry, but only a little modified. Just enough to optimize the handling characteristics on dirt and rock roads and on technical single-tracks. But it remains a road bike. Like I said in the original post, I've lost zero performance on the road while gaining the same level of performance on dirt and rocks. So, yea, you're correct, it's a road bike but a bit more like one those Porche 911's they build years and years ago to race whatever that race was in Mexico on dirt roads plus do some rallying. They were still absolutely 911's, just tweaked for the dirt. That's my Eriksen, a road bike tweaked for dirt, rocks, single-tracks

I get what you're saying, but the analogy doesn't work. That 911 (and also the 959) for the Dakar rally were awesome cars, but on tarmac, they handle nothing like a normal 911.

[oldpotatoe]

I get what you're saying, but the analogy doesn't work. That 911 (and also the 959) for the Dakar rally were awesome cars, but on tarmac, they handle nothing like a normal 911.

:):eek:

[velotel]

I get what you're saying, but the analogy doesn't work. That 911 (and also the 959) for the Dakar rally were awesome cars, but on tarmac, they handle nothing like a normal 911.
Oh well, I never drove one, only saw pics of them. At any rate my stoner bike is awesome on pavement.

[Wayne77]

Not sure I agree with the idea that hitting single track and jeep trails on a road bike isn't going to give anything up in the handling department to something with fat tires and geometry more suited to that sort of thing. sorry a road bike with a 25mm tire isn't going to get you very far on the single track and gravel roads I ride. First steep gravel descent with a road bike with 25 or even 28mm tires and that bike is going down period. Maybe it's the dry wash, loose gravel stuff I ride out west. Lots of extended climbing, fast descents in surfaces that can go from relatively smooth to rock strewn in a heart beat. Navigating a roubaix style road bike down a tight single track switch back is a non-starter...and not just because of tires.

The Crusher is a great example. Could you get through that race on a road bike with 25mm tires? Yes, but it would be a miserable experience and you'd put yourself and other riders at risk descending the very steep and very loose Col d' Crush. The return trip climbing back up that road? No thanks. The first time I did that event it was on a cross bike with traditional CX gearing, 35 mm tires, and brakes that up to that point had been fine. It worked ok...but I was miserable going up the last aforementioned climb of the day. The 36/28 wasn't close to low enough (not because I wasn't fit) and I was losing traction even with the 35mm tires. It was a relatively smooth road but crazy steep. Fast forward to last year and I rode the same frame with 45mm WTB Riddlers, and a Sram XX mtb derailleur to accommodate the 36T cassette / 34T ring. WORLD of difference. I love that race...I keeps me up at night and I'm determined to break top 20 this year. So how is my equipment going to change for 2018? I'm going to get a more 'extreme' sort of gravel grinder with hydraulic brakes, clearance for 2.1 650B tires, extra bottle mounts (Sarlac Pit part of the race...heat management is key and water intake is critical), geometry better suited to riding off road at significantly higher speeds than my CX bike is optimized for, etc. So in this case at least, suggesting a CX bike is a step up from a gravel bike in terms of off road prowess doesn't work.

My point is that there is a broad spectrum even within the "Gravel bike" category. So many flavors for so many different conditions...that's why it's really resonating with people. There are perfectly legit gravel bikes well suited to blasting along gravel access roads and well maintained single track that will fall well short of the terrain other types of gravel bikes will shine on. To distill it down to "long chain stays and more tire clearance" is missing the point. There are so many equipment configuration choices to be made. Some are irrelevant to some folks and some are very relevant to others. So I think dismissing thru-axles, hydro brakes, 1x, road plus, etc etc as mostly marketing driven misses the point. All these little configurational details to obsess over when outfitting your ideal adventure rig is one reason why this gravel biking thing is so cool to me...everyone has their own very unique use case and thankfully there are a lot of players in the industry bringing new and old tech to the table to support that.

[oldpotatoe]

What about the Eriksen makes it better than a Moots?

Nothin but 2 different business models. Eriksen started Moots, grew it, sold it. Stayed for 3 years as consultant and for whatever reason, this 'contract' was not renewed. He left and started Eriksen. Kent small, direct to consumer, builder who does have 'models' but is really a 'one at a time, one of a kind', type builder, but small(about 100 or so frames per year). Plus, AFAIK, Kent has stepped away from frame building and Brad is now running the show. So not really 'built by the guy who started Moots'.

Moots a mid level titanium frame builder(1500 or so frames per year), has a great lineup and does custom but limits the changes to their lineup or else it's no longer a 'Moots'. AND relies on a dealer network to sell their frames.

BTW-Brad Bingham used to be head of production at Moots, lived in the upstairs apartment at the Moots 'factory'..

Both great titanium frames as are the likes of Seven, IF, lots of others, both big and small. BUT I think a mistake to say one is 'better' than the other. Too many variables, to subjective. Which tastes better, a Fuji apple or a Macintosh apple?

[Clancy]

Wayne77 and Oldpotatoe

Much wisdom from both

[VTR1000SP2]

Wayne77 and Oldpotatoe

Much wisdom from both

Agreed.

[Wayne77]

Wayne77 and Oldpotatoe

Much wisdom from both

Honored to be mentioned in the same sentence as Oldpotatoe...in this case maybe, but in all others my cycling knowledge pales. I've learned much on this forum over the years from Mr Potatoe :-)

[oldpotatoe]

Honored to be mentioned in the same sentence as Oldpotatoe...in this case maybe, but in all others my cycling knowledge pales. I've learned much on this forum over the years from Mr Potatoe :-)

Thanks but lotsa knowledge here from any and all paceliners...

[John H.]

I +1 everything Old P. says, also this-

1.) Moots offers a ton of options these days- they have really upped their game.
Internal disc routing
-brought back the threaded bb
-Nice thru axle dropouts
-Nice OE forks
-Many nice stock options of all types of bikes- aggressive fit or taller head tube-
-Butted tubing options- though, other than on their road frames to butted frames don't come out any lighter than straight gauge frames
-Moots will have way better resale value because less enthusiasts know the brand

2.) Eriksen- Every bike is a one off- that matters to some
- Erikson des everything Moots does except butted tubes and private label forks. You just have to ask for it.
-Eriksen does custom down to 1mm if needed

Only con to Moots is that in custom they only work in 5mm increments. But this doesn't matter to most of the world.
But at the end of the day Moots would rather sell you a stock frame.

Kent hasn't welded an Eriksen in some time- He used to cut tubes, but I don't think he does that anymore. Is this bad? From my perspective, Eriksen cycles is a tighter ship under Brad Bingham in every way.

Both frames are top notch- can't go wrong.

You would be hard pressed to find a flaw on either frame!



Nothin but 2 different business models. Eriksen started Moots, grew it, sold it. Stayed for 3 years as consultant and for whatever reason, this 'contract' was not renewed. He left and started Eriksen. Kent small, direct to consumer, builder who does have 'models' but is really a 'one at a time, one of a kind', type builder, but small(about 100 or so frames per year). Plus, AFAIK, Kent has stepped away from frame building and Brad is now running the show. So not really 'built by the guy who started Moots'.

Moots a mid level titanium frame builder(1500 or so frames per year), has a great lineup and does custom but limits the changes to their lineup or else it's no longer a 'Moots'. AND relies on a dealer network to sell their frames.

BTW-Brad Bingham used to be head of production at Moots, lived in the upstairs apartment at the Moots 'factory'..

Both great titanium frames as are the likes of Seven, IF, lots of others, both big and small. BUT I think a mistake to say one is 'better' than the other. Too many variables, to subjective. Which tastes better, a Fuji apple or a Macintosh apple?

[hampco]

Which tastes better, a Fuji apple or a Macintosh apple?

Honeycrisp, duh.

[Kontact]

I wonder why Eriksen doesn't do butted tubing?

[dvancleve]

Wayne77, what bikes meet your criteria (if you don't mind me asking ;^) ? Based on my "gravel bike" research, I can only think of the Rodeo Labs Trail Donkey and maybe the Open U.P. There are not many that fit a tire bigger than 45mm...

Thanks, Doug

[Wayne77]

Wayne77, what bikes meet your criteria (if you don't mind me asking ;^) ? Based on my "gravel bike" research, I can only think of the Rodeo Labs Trail Donkey and maybe the Open U.P. There are not many that fit a tire bigger than 45mm...

Thanks, Doug

Hi Doug, once you go to a 650B wheel the list expands quite a bit. That said, now that I put 650B wheels on my Trek Crockett, I can fit a 47mm WTB Byway. The WTB page for their Byway tire actually has a link to a list of gravel and cx frames that will accommodate that tire. Its a pretty long list:

https://www.wtb.com/pages/road-plus .

Also, I've seen many custom builds that will fit a 47mm tire. One off the rack frame I'm really interested in is the Norco Search XR (http://www.norco.com/searchxr/). It fits up to a 2.1 mtb tire (about 53mm). The Lynskey GR250/260 will as well I believe. If you wanted to get really crazy you could run a 27.5 Schwalbe Racing Ralph mtb tire. Side note: Chainreaction has the Lynskey GR250 priced at $1387 I assume to make room for the updated GR260. The Norco has a lot of really cool features, in addition to the excellent tire clearance. 3 bottle mounts on the frame and 2 on the fork, hidden mounts for racks and fenders, etc. The sloping top tube isn't for everyone, but it doesn't bother me...The new Ibis Hakka is another similar option.

Carver makes a great Ti frame that will fit 45mm 700c / 2.1 650B...frame only is $1399. Great deal. (Apparently this Carver frame is actually made by Lynskey)

Anyway, the list seems to be getting longer and longer as this category expands...

[pncguy]

Honeycrisp, duh.

This, along with the post it was referencing, made me laugh. This attitude is why I love this forum so much. :)

[adub]

If it's tire clearance your looking for check out the new lynskey gravel frame

[choke]

Not sure I agree with the idea that hitting single track and jeep trails on a road bike isn't going to give anything up in the handling department to something with fat tires and geometry more suited to that sort of thing. sorry a road bike with a 25mm tire isn't going to get you very far on the single track and gravel roads I ride. First steep gravel descent with a road bike with 25 or even 28mm tires and that bike is going down period. Maybe it's the dry wash, loose gravel stuff I ride out west. Lots of extended climbing, fast descents in surfaces that can go from relatively smooth to rock strewn in a heart beat. Navigating a roubaix style road bike down a tight single track switch back is a non-starter...and not just because of tires. I get what you're saying but I can't agree with it. Obviously I'm not riding the same roads as you, but I have ridden Cino Heroica twice on old road bikes (Merckx, Pogliaghi) with tires that measured 26mm and lived to tell the tale. :) The people on wide tires did ride away from me on the descents and that was the biggest downside IMO. I've also spent time on BLM roads in WY that barely qualify as a road on those same width tires and while it's more challenging than using a wider tire it is still doable.

Given a choice I would always take take a wider tire but to say it's not possible with something smaller is the opposite of my experience.

[Wayne77]

Makes sense, perhaps I phrased it a little too black and white. That said, I think we're making similar points regarding the extra wide tires. Anyway, in a similar vein to your point, I love it when I come down technical single track on my CX bike and come across mountain bikers who are usually surprised to see a drop bar bike coming down the trail. I certainly can't hang with the full squish guys through the technical stuff, but the fact that there are drop bar bikes these days fully capable of doing that is pretty darn cool.

I get what you're saying but I can't agree with it. Obviously I'm not riding the same roads as you, but I have ridden Cino Heroica twice on old road bikes (Merckx, Pogliaghi) with tires that measured 26mm and lived to tell the tale. :) The people on wide tires did ride away from me on the descents and that was the biggest downside IMO. I've also spent time on BLM roads in WY that barely qualify as a road on those same width tires and while it's more challenging than using a wider tire it is still doable.

Given a choice I would always take take a wider tire but to say it's not possible with something smaller is the opposite of my experience.