How do you define the term "Hand Made?"

[eBAUMANN]

Sadly, I feel like the terms "Hand Made" or "Made by Hand" no longer really mean a whole lot in the bicycle industry, they've been reduced to buzz-words, used to imbue the frame with that special sort of bespoke romance that customers fawn over.

The reality is, a Surly is (by definition) no more/less "Hand Made" than a Speedvagen.

The tubes for both are cut to spec by human operated machines and welded/brazed together by humans.

And yet, one has that "hand made" mojo while the other is often times referred to as the exact opposite.

So, what does "hand made" mean to you?

[MattTuck]

In wine, there are certain controlled terms that can only be used if the product meets certain specifications. Just pulled this off some random website, but it sort of gets what I am talking about.

To be designated as a "California" wine, 100% of the grapes used in the wine must be grown in that state. To bear a viticultural area designation such as "Napa," "Sonoma," or "El Dorado County," 85% or more of the grapes used must be grown in the designated area. The winery production and bottling designation on a wine label can tell a lot to an educated consumer. "Estate Bottled" and "Grown, Produced and Bottled by ..." each mean that 100% of the grapes used must be from a vineyard that is owned or controlled within a viticultural area where the winery is located. These designations by a respected winemaker often denote a higher quality wine, since the entire product was produced by that winemaker. "Produced and Bottled by . . ." designates that the bottler made, fermented and finished at least 75% of the wine. "Made and Bottled by . . ." means that the bottler made, fermented and finished at least 10% of the wine. Again, the extent to which a winemaker participated in the production of the wine often can be an indicator of quality. "Cellared and Bottled by . . ." or "Vinted and Bottled by . . ." means that the bottler made less than 10% of the wine and possibly did not make any of the wine. This designation often refers to wines bought in bulk from other wineries and bottled under the label of a winery that had no involvement in the production of the wine. Knowledge of the foregoing labeling regulations can give a consumer more information and a better understanding of a given wine. However, this is just a beginning. Not all "Estate Bottled" wines are great and some "Vinted and Bottled by . . ." wines are outstanding. While knowledge of these designations is useful, an informed consumer should also look for wines that have won medals in state and county fairs and other wine competitions and wines that have been praised or highly rated by critics such as Robert Parker and Jerry Mead or by wine publications like the Wine Spectator, Connoisseurs' Guide to California Wines and California Grapevine. Such wines are generally notable and worth acquiring.

At some point, handmade has just become a meaningless marketing term. As far as custom bikes go, I think more people care that they know WHOSE hands made something, not just that it was made by two human hands. I think this gets back to the idea that buying a big brand bike (or any product) is a very antiseptic relationship. You have a relationship with the brand (a sort of nebulous intangible thing), not the individual who made it. With a custom builder, or a small group of builders, there is more of an expectation that you have a human relationship with a person who 'made' the product.

[Mark McM]

So, what does "hand made" mean to you?

A product made prior to the industrial revolution?

[sitzmark]

...
So, what does "hand made" mean to you?

http://azblacksmiths.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/blacksmith-blacksmiths-like-it-hot-mike-savad.jpg

[sales guy]

Sadly, I feel like the terms "Hand Made" or "Made by Hand" no longer really mean a whole lot in the bicycle industry, they've been reduced to buzz-words, used to imbue the frame with that special sort of bespoke romance that customers fawn over.

The reality is, a Surly is (by definition) no more/less "Hand Made" than a Speedvagen.

The tubes for both are cut to spec by human operated machines and welded/brazed together by humans.

And yet, one has that "hand made" mojo while the other is often times referred to as the exact opposite.

So, what does "hand made" mean to you?


I read it as a product made by someone who has a hand in it from start to finish. From concept to design to manufacturing to delivery.

In our case, we do that.

We do the concepts and design in-house. Whether by me or Richard at HQ we do the bike fits and bike cad designs and the concepts for the client. Whether it's a paint idea like the John Players Special idea a shop has for a NAHBS bike. We draw up the paint designs. We discuss it and go over it many times with them. One person we did 32 different paint designs and 18 BikeCad designs.

We do everything in-house.

If you look at Surly, they may do the concept and design at Q. But they don't make it. The contract it out. They also don't get the client involved. Again, we do. Many times over.

I think those are the differences between Hand Made or Made by Hand. Kind of like Made in the USA.

[bikinchris]

I call it "hand made" when I work with the builder to design the frame, then I see his/her signature on the build sheet, and finally on the card listing the people who had a hand in building the frame.

[batman1425]

There's the technical definition of "Hand Made" and the spirit of the term. Technically, built by hand with more involvement/skill than moving blanks into hoppers and transferring intermediates between CNC machines. Something more than chickens in, pies out. Skilled human labor/involvement.

The spirit, to me, is something built on an individual unit basis to a standard which is either difficult or impossible to be accomplish in an automated manufacturing pipeline. This includes the intellectual input of the builder who can make choices in materials and methods, and subtile changes to the final product to suit the needs of the intended user. This is the part that makes automation challenging.

That said, personally, I don't consider "Hand Made" to necessarily be a definition of quality. There are things that humans can do much better than machines, but also things that machines are much better at doing than even a master craftsmen. It depends on the item and the application.

[Mark McM]

Most of the processes/products in the responses above refer to custom products, which can probably be better described as "bespoke" rather than "hand made". (Plus "bespoke" is already a bicycle pun!)

batman1425's response is probably closer to the mark for the term "hand made". It can also be applied to other products, such as baked goods or woven baskets, which are often made as standard products rather than to a specific order.

[Bentley]

So this is an interesting discussion. For me Hand made is "artisnal" in nature. So while a bicycle may be made of manufactured tubes and lugs for me its hand made if an actual human does the brazing, welding of those tubes to actually make that tube set into a bike. While it could be a previously made item (stock frame) if the item is actually brazed/welded by a human, as opposed to a robot that would fit my definition. To go a step further, if the item is "customized" to my specifications, the tubes are cut and then welded/brazed to fit my specifications then it is clearly not only hand made but I would argue "bespoke".

I think you could argue that a set of wheels that is build by hand, a hub set, spokes, rim, nipples that are done with a set of human hands are "hand built" wheels using stock components.

A stem, or a seat post that is made from tubes and machined parts and is brazed/welded by hand is also "hand made/built"

I assume the question is that is it still hand made if you use manufactured components, I think that the answer is yes because all the work of making those separate parts into something that is recognizable is done with human hands.

[Mark McM]

How do we classify mass produced carbon frames? There are a lot of processes in carbon frame building that can't easily be automated, particularly in the final steps (layout into the mold), and thus are largely built with hand labor. (This is why most carbon frame building is done in countries with lower labor costs). Based on some definitions here most production carbon frames are "hand made".

[arimajol]

There is a nuanced aspect of "handmade" that was described in a This American Life a few years ago about a guy obsessed with Apple products. He ended up getting in trouble for making up a bunch of his story, but that's beside the point. He talked about how just because something is made in a factory in Asia, doesn't mean it isn't made with human hands. Not to be incendiary, but sometimes "handmade" means made by white hands. As opposed to anonymous cheap overseas labor. I would say the word "artisanal" is better, but it's so frickin' pretentious, atmo.

My partner's mom likes to only give "handmade" gifts and I've tried to needle my partner about the weird connotations of the term. She didn't really get it.

[Ken Robb]

I read it as a product made by someone who has a hand in it from start to finish. From concept to design to manufacturing to delivery.

In our case, we do that.

We do the concepts and design in-house. Whether by me or Richard at HQ we do the bike fits and bike cad designs and the concepts for the client. Whether it's a paint idea like the John Players Special idea a shop has for a NAHBS bike. We draw up the paint designs. We discuss it and go over it many times with them. One person we did 32 different paint designs and 18 BikeCad designs.

We do everything in-house.

If you look at Surly, they may do the concept and design at Q. But they don't make it. The contract it out. They also don't get the client involved. Again, we do. Many times over.

I think those are the differences between Hand Made or Made by Hand. Kind of like Made in the USA.
I may be the only guy in the dark but what is the name of your company?

[mhespenheide]

I may be the only guy in the dark but what is the name of your company?

http://www.enigmabikes.com/ (http://www.enigmabikes.com/), as per this thread: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=211673

[makoti]

How do we classify mass produced carbon frames? There are a lot of processes in carbon frame building that can't easily be automated, particularly in the final steps (layout into the mold), and thus are largely built with hand labor. (This is why most carbon frame building is done in countries with lower labor costs). Based on some definitions here most production carbon frames are "hand made".

I guess it has to be small batch items to be considered "Hand made". I'll admit, that seems to arbitrarily scratch a lot of stuff off, but I just can't consider anything "mass produced" hand made. Unless you have LOTS of people doing it, I guess.

[false_Aest]

I have been to at least 10 mass mfg facilities in China and 3 in Vietnam.

In all but 1 factory the bikes were hand made. That one factory makes 1.5million bikes a year. They use the robotic welder is there to do the BB/CS/DT cluster. All the other joints along with alignment, etc is done by people using their hands.

[eBAUMANN]

They use the robotic welder is there to do the BB/CS/DT cluster. All the other joints along with alignment, etc is done by people using their hands.

I have always wondered how any machine could possibly weld the tight joints in a bike frame...is there any video of these machines doing their thing? Would LOVE to see if so.

[Bob Ross]

I guess it has to be small batch items to be considered "Hand made". I'll admit, that seems to arbitrarily scratch a lot of stuff off, but I just can't consider anything "mass produced" hand made. Unless you have LOTS of people doing it, I guess.

I would differentiate between "hand made" and "hands made" :banana:

By the time half a dozen or more sets of hands have had their part in your fabrication, whatever je ne sais quoi the term may have conveyed has been lost imho. It's now a committee project, and there's very little "artisanal" about that no matter how many free-range candles they're burning in their shop.

[Mark McM]

There is a nuanced aspect of "handmade" that was described in a This American Life a few years ago about a guy obsessed with Apple products. He ended up getting in trouble for making up a bunch of his story, but that's beside the point. He talked about how just because something is made in a factory in Asia, doesn't mean it isn't made with human hands. Not to be incendiary, but sometimes "handmade" means made by white hands. As opposed to anonymous cheap overseas labor. I would say the word "artisanal" is better, but it's so frickin' pretentious, atmo.

My partner's mom likes to only give "handmade" gifts and I've tried to needle my partner about the weird connotations of the term. She didn't really get it.

So, I think I'm starting to understand what people actually mean when they say "hand made" - it means that you have a personal connection to person(s) who did the finishing work on the product. It isn't just that the product is made by hand, it's that the person last in line in production will directly hand it to you.

In other words, its more about the personal connection with the production of the goods (real or imagined), rather they the reality of how much human hands were involved in the production.

[pdmtong]

for frames it is probably better to differentiate (if it matters to you) by the size of the shop.

one person - richard sachs
few people - firefly (~4)
handful of people - vanilla (2017, ~12)

[eBAUMANN]

for frames it is probably better to differentiate (if it matters to you) by the size of the shop.

one person - richard sachs
few people - firefly (~4)
handful of people - vanilla (2017, ~12)

so at what point does the frame exit the hand-made realm and enter the production realm?

[ltwtsculler91]

so at what point does the frame exit the hand-made realm and enter the production realm?

I think this is what the question really is. Coming from rowing I see similar delineations in the marketplace between the types of shops similar to what was mentioned above:
1) Solo/Small shop Framebuilder - Dave Kirk, Kelly Bedford, Richard Sachs, etc
One guy is making all of the bikes. Maybe has an assistant or painter helping along the way, but the process is driven from start to end by the one builder/designer

2) Boutique - Seven, Vanilla/Speedvagen, Firefly, No22, Moots, Serotta, Pegoretti, Parlee
These frames are designed and built by a team/factory, but still in limited runs and with custom availability. They have stock models and a presence but still maintain approach-ability and custom options

3) Mass market/Production - Trek, Spec, Giant, Cervelo, Salsa, QBP brands, etc
Stock bikes made in a factory. You may be able to get custom paint options, but sizing and offerings are whatever they give you.

[macaroon]

I'd agree with some of the other posters in this thread.....

"Hand made" is the product of a one-man/woman band (in my eyes).

Of course, manufacturers don't just use the term "hand made", they often add on the name of their hometown so it becomes "hand made in Portland, Oregon"

The place names are the important bit I think.

[shovelhd]

so at what point does the frame exit the hand-made realm and enter the production realm?

This is a topic of great disagreement, discussion, and debate on Etsy. There are pros and cons to either side of the argument.

Here are my loose definitions. Fire away.

Production - When any kind of automation is introduced, the term "hand made" should no longer be allowed. A bicycle that has tubes mitered by a CNC mill or welds joined by a CNC welder, is no longer hand made (i.e. Surly). I understand that a human has to program the CNC, but that doesn't count. Automation of production is where I draw the line.

Hand made - When the production of the item is done by hand with no automation. Off the shelf parts can be used, and manual machines can be used as well, as long as a human operates them. It's a broad category.

Artisan - This is where the human interaction comes in. Something that is hand made could be made for anyone, without automation. I'm thinking of an engagement ring sold at Kay Jewelers, or a beer at your local microbrewery. An artisan product is made for you. It may or may not be hand made. It has an identified owner.

[Mark McM]

I'd agree with some of the other posters in this thread.....

"Hand made" is the product of a one-man/woman band (in my eyes).

Of course, manufacturers don't just use the term "hand made", they often add on the name of their hometown so it becomes "hand made in Portland, Oregon"

The place names are the important bit I think.

Again, I think the notion of "hand made" is about the feeling of personal connection, rather than the physical use of hands in production:

If product is made entirely with the hands of a single person, but at a distance and anonymously, the consumer won't feel a strong personal connection to the maker or product.

If a product is made entirely with the hands, but by a large group where each person only contributes a small part, the consumer won't feel a strong personal connection to the maker(s) or product.

Adding a location (or other unique identifier) to the "hand made" label (such as "hand made in Portland") adds to the notion of the maker being unique individuals with personal connection to a place, and therefore helps the consumer feel a personal connection.

[rnhood]

I'd say that since the tubes are production made, that throws the "hand made" argument out the window. In fact as mentioned earlier, carbon frames have as much hand making in them that steel, Ti or Alu.

As a general rule I tend to agree with the comment, hand made refers to products built prior to the industrial revolution. But with some type products there are exceptions.

Today I think the term "hand made" really means the product is hand assembled.

[Mark McM]

This is a topic of great disagreement, discussion, and debate on Etsy. There are pros and cons to either side of the argument.

Here are my loose definitions. Fire away.

Production - When any kind of automation is introduced, the term "hand made" should no longer be allowed. A bicycle that has tubes mitered by a CNC mill or welds joined by a CNC welder, is no longer hand made (i.e. Surly). I understand that a human has to program the CNC, but that doesn't count. Automation of production is where I draw the line.

Hand made - When the production of the item is done by hand with no automation. Off the shelf parts can be used, and manual machines can be used as well, as long as a human operates them. It's a broad category.

These are technical definitions of what "hand made" means, and I don't disagree with them. But I think a more important (but harder to answer) question is: Does it matter? Isn't the quality of the final goods more important than the processes used to make them?

[Thrillho]

These are technical definitions of what "hand made" means, and I don't disagree with them. But I think a more important (but harder to answer) question is: Does it matter? Isn't the quality of the final goods more important than the processes used to make them?

Interesting question. Let me take a stab at this and say that the end product and the process both matter. Would you buy a perfect product if it were made by slave labor or if it resulted in horrible environmental contamination? What if a terrorist organization were funding its activities by making the "best" bikes in the world for cheap--would you buy one? By the same token, would you pay more for a product of the same quality because you knew that the money paid living wages to people in your community? Also, do you value being part of the design and build process and are you willing to pay for that access?

[arimajol]

Interesting question. Let me take a stab at this and say that the end product and the process both matter. Would you buy a perfect product if it were made by slave labor or if it resulted in horrible environmental contamination? What if a terrorist organization were funding its activities by making the "best" bikes in the world for cheap--would you buy one? By the same token, would you pay more for a product of the same quality because you knew that the money paid living wages to people in your community? Also, do you value being part of the design and build process and are you willing to pay for that access?

What if the owners or shareholders of the manufacturer donate to political causes you disagree with and/or when carried out negatively impact your life?

[arimajol]

Again, I think the notion of "hand made" is about the feeling of personal connection, rather than the physical use of hands in production:

If product is made entirely with the hands of a single person, but at a distance and anonymously, the consumer won't feel a strong personal connection to the maker or product.

If a product is made entirely with the hands, but by a large group where each person only contributes a small part, the consumer won't feel a strong personal connection to the maker(s) or product.

Adding a location (or other unique identifier) to the "hand made" label (such as "hand made in Portland") adds to the notion of the maker being unique individuals with personal connection to a place, and therefore helps the consumer feel a personal connection.

I agree. I think knowing the name of the person whose hands made it is a big factor.

[MattTuck]

These are technical definitions of what "hand made" means, and I don't disagree with them. But I think a more important (but harder to answer) question is: Does it matter? Isn't the quality of the final goods more important than the processes used to make them?

Stepping away from the hand made debate for a second, there are plenty of products like diamonds and certain rare earth metals that could have their value impaired if people knew certain practices were being used. [ie. if you had 2 equal diamonds in the 4 C's, but one was from canada and one was sourced from a conflict region where you know child labor is used, and the diamond finances violence, would you place different willingness to pay on them?

Look at the story of Saran wrap. S.C. Johnson company puts out an inferior product because they want to avoid using a certain chemical in it, and the product isn't as "clingy" without that chemical. That is an example of a time when a company has decided that the process used to make something is more important than the 'quality' (measured on a certain dimension).

As far as bikes, the difference between product and process may not be as stark as these examples. Different people have different tastes and preferences, and there very well could be people who value differentiation in production process over differentiation in performance. Just like some people prefer continental garden hoses, err, gatorskin tires for puncture resistance over clearly superior riding tires that are slightly more prone to flats.

To say that quality of the final goods is ALL important is the same as a company prioritizing profit over everything else. You may get very good quality stuff, but there may be unseen (to you) side-effects and unintended consequences.

[macaroon]

Adding a location (or other unique identifier) to the "hand made" label (such as "hand made in Portland") adds to the notion of the maker being unique individuals with personal connection to a place, and therefore helps the consumer feel a personal connection.

Yeh, I don't know whether it's that, it could be; there's definitely reasons though. TBH I've turned my brain off for the evening so I don't want to have to think about it.

You never see "hand made in Tianjin, China" mentioned.....

[Mark McM]

Interesting question. Let me take a stab at this and say that the end product and the process both matter. Would you buy a perfect product if it were made by slave labor or if it resulted in horrible environmental contamination? What if a terrorist organization were funding its activities by making the "best" bikes in the world for cheap--would you buy one? By the same token, would you pay more for a product of the same quality because you knew that the money paid living wages to people in your community?

All important questions, but wandering far afield and off topic. My question about whether the product quality or production processes was more important was intended to only pertain to the matter under discussion: "Hand made" vs. "Mass produced".

Also, do you value being part of the design and build process and are you willing to pay for that access?

This touches upon my thesis that the concept of "hand made" really evokes the idea of a personal connection to goods, rather than simply that only hand labor was used. It also touches upon the idea of customer input, and whether that should really be labeled "bespoke".

[Ralph]

Can't necessarily define it....but I know what I mean if I use that term. When the guy showed up with a pile of lumber, and made a nice fence surrounding my back yard....the fence was "hand made". If frame builder buys some tubes and lugs....measures, cuts, joins, paints, a bike frame just for me....I call that frame "hand made". When my Aunt takes honey from her bee hives, packages that in jars, and sells to the local country store, I call that "made by Aunt Bessie" (even if the bees really made the honey). You probably have your list.

I don't call many things "hand made" anymore. Believe that term is from a bygone era. I also don't think being "hand made" tells you anything about the item or product. Lots of "hand made" items were replaced by "machine made"...and are now far better.

[shovelhd]

These are technical definitions of what "hand made" means, and I don't disagree with them. But I think a more important (but harder to answer) question is: Does it matter? Isn't the quality of the final goods more important than the processes used to make them?

I think the definitions I suggested are very much under debate. I can find plenty of people that will disagree with them.

To answer your question, I'd say "it depends". For some people, it matters whether the "artisan" product that was created exclusively for them could be recreated exactly. It's not "unique" at that point.

I also wouldn't equate "quality" with "hand made".

[e-RICHIE]

This touches upon my thesis that the concept of "hand made" really evokes the idea of a personal connection to goods, rather than simply that only hand labor was used. It also touches upon the idea of customer input, and whether that should really be labeled "bespoke".

Bespoke infers that the item was made for a client, and for that client alone. It's not the same as custom-made because such items can be produced in batches as well as one at a time. It's also not the same as made to measure. Bespoke, while a term often connected with personal service and/or a more intimate touch, can mean manufactured goods as easily as it can made by hand.

[shovelhd]

Bespoke infers that the item was made for a client, and for that client alone. It's not the same as custom-made because such items can be produced in batches as well as one at a time. It's also not the same as made to measure. Bespoke, while a term often connected with personal service and/or a more intimate touch, can mean manufactured goods as easily as it can made by hand.

Which is what I was getting at with the (awful) term "artisan".

[pncguy]

I'd say that since the tubes are production made, that throws the "hand made" argument out the window. In fact as mentioned earlier, carbon frames have as much hand making in them that steel, Ti or Alu.

As a general rule I tend to agree with the comment, hand made refers to products built prior to the industrial revolution. But with some type products there are exceptions.

Today I think the term "hand made" really means the product is hand assembled.

This is an interesting take. Immediately the photos I have seen of Llewellyn bikes come to mind. Mr. McCulloch makes lugs. Some he sells to the likes of Dave Kirk. Llewellyn bikes are amazing examples of what I see as the highest levels of craftmanship - and they are definitely "hand made," despite the fact that he uses production tubing. Dave Kirk is similarly amazing (although I am sure he would say he wouldn't compare himself to Mr. McCulloch, but thanks for the compliment) at the work he does producing his bikes - which I also consider "hand made."

Then there is Carl Strong, who doesn't do lugs, and uses production tubing, but who I also consider someone whose bikes are "hand made."

All three of these builders ALSO add the element of personal involvement with the buyer, but that isn't what I would say makes their work "hand made."

Maybe this really directs us back to the "why do you care" question. Not to say that you SHOULDN'T care, but the answer should be based on why you're asking. When I got my bike I wanted a high-quality, made-for-me, product where I could talk to the builder personally to determine everything about what they were making for me. So, yeah, my bike is "hand made." But I don't actually use that term when I talk to people about it. I say it is a "custom bike made for me." Of course, that description could describe a Seven, but I wouldn't have gotten the exact experience from them that I did from Carl. I think I would have received made-for-me and high quality, but then it is a little fuzzier if Seven makes "hand-made" bikes.

[Mark McM]

Okay, after reading some of the comments here and pondering a little more, I think there may be another idea implied or inferred by the term "hand made":

"mass production" not only implies a cold, impersonal process, but it also implies a certain uniformity and "sameness" between every unit produced.

"hand made" implies not only a human connection, but also a certain variability and non-conformity between every unit.

While you might want some items (such as nuts and bolts and brackets) to be completely identical, you may want other items (such as vases, silk flowers, or clothing) to all have unique touches. Such variability might require non-automated hand processes.


As far as bicycle frames, I might want the builder to draw up a unique geometry or use a custom selection of tubes, but as long as the final product has the characteristics and quality level I'm looking for it matters not a whit to me whether the builder welds frame tubes by hand, or uses an automatic welder.

[redir]

I make guitars and this topic comes up often in the luthier forums. My personal take on it is that anything that you put into a CNC machine that pops out a product on the other side is not hand made. Having said that, I don't make the strings, the fret wire or the tuners either. I don't even chop down the tree, though in some cases I actually had. I use a band saw but I feed the wood into it, by hand.


So I would think in the bike industry if all you do is hand feed tubes into a frame makin machine you probably ought not to call it hand made. Sure you don't make the tubes but if you have framing tables and jigs and align everything and weld it together and align everything and so on then yeah it's hand made.

[sales guy]

Bespoke infers that the item was made for a client, and for that client alone. It's not the same as custom-made because such items can be produced in batches as well as one at a time. It's also not the same as made to measure. Bespoke, while a term often connected with personal service and/or a more intimate touch, can mean manufactured goods as easily as it can made by hand.

You beat me too it. I was going to use Savile Row and the suit stores there as an example of "bespoke" and "hand made".

[e-RICHIE]

You beat me too it. I was going to use Savile Row and the suit stores there as an example of "bespoke" and "hand made".


>>> suit stores

That there is one precious term atmo!

[dustyrider]

Seems to me folks all over the world use their hands to make things, but somehow only American hands are worthy of the title “handmade”.

[classtimesailer]

If I ask you, "Who made your frame?", and you reply, "Firstname Lastname.", that evokes an image of someone building that frame with their hands. Any other reply evokes the image of a shop with a bunch of workers, machines and time clocks and stuff.

[54ny77]

When the product, no matter what it is, arrives late.

;)

[ripvanrando]

In my office sit many objects.

Most are mass produced.

A handmade Damascus steel knife from Tennessee with exquisite birds eye maple handle excepted.

A handmade pen also in birds eye maple also excepted.

A Riedel sommelier glass is obviously hand blown

A locally crafted hutch.

A set of hand built wheels.

An 1885 music box.

Everything else is crap (in my office)

[David Tollefson]

Thinking from my own little iota of the bike biz world, I do consider the frames I make to be hand made -- from the handshake between me and the customer at the beginning of the process, to the measuring/fitting, design, cutting, mitering, and brazing, alignment and finishing of the frame, it's all my hands doing the work. The only things my hands DON'T do (at this point) is paint a customer frame. I rattle-can my own frames, but that's more because I'll likely either change the color or make a different frame for myself sometime down the line. The only "automated" machine I have is a drill press (hand-fed), and that's only used to make holes, not cut miters. So, yeah, I do consider them to be hand made, but I don't use that as any kind of marketing term.

I'd be curious as to the people who are on the cusps of the previously delineated definitions and how they consider their own products, one way or the other.

[Buzz Killington]

Slight tangent here...I do a lot of work in the food and beverage industry and can vouch that a lot of “homemade” foods are not produced anywhere near a home. Way,way, way overused and abused term there.

[54ny77]

Boy ain't that the truth!

I worked in a nice restaurant during college that served up Costco lasagne and put it in a clay plate/bowl with semi-homemade sauce on it, called it "homemade." Oh and charged a lot of money for it to boot!

What's amazing is that no food critic could put two & two together and taste different sauces inside the lasagne and the "gravy" that was poured on top of it.

Sorry for the slight tangent....

Slight tangent here...I do a lot of work in the food and beverage industry and can vouch that a lot of “homemade” foods are not produced anywhere near a home. Way,way, way overused and abused term there.

[cadence90]

This touches upon my thesis that the concept of "hand made" really evokes the idea of a personal connection to goods, rather than simply that only hand labor was used. It also touches upon the idea of customer input, and whether that should really be labeled "bespoke".

I do not really understand this train of thought.

There is currently a frame for sale in the Classifieds that was certainly "Fatto a mano in Italia". Not only that, this particular frame was very possibly a bespoke product for the first owner (but not the second, etc., of course). And, yet, it is also quite possible that none of the previous owners, including the first, had any direct contact with the builder. Nonetheless, for the fourth owner, the frame will be just as "Fatto a mano in Italia" as it was for first one, etc.




However, if you are referring to "the idea of a personal connection to goods" as more a romantic myth than any actual reality, then, yes, this does play into it, and the Italians in particular play into it very well indeed.
.
.

[false_Aest]

I have always wondered how any machine could possibly weld the tight joints in a bike frame...is there any video of these machines doing their thing? Would LOVE to see if so.

I tried but was warned that the high-frequency would short my camera. Wasn't willing to try it.

[William]

I have always wondered how any machine could possibly weld the tight joints in a bike frame...is there any video of these machines doing their thing? Would LOVE to see if so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6669_gyYh8






William

[bicycletricycle]

something made a person who had the liberty/motivation to care about/attend to the details.

[sales guy]

>>> suit stores

That there is one precious term atmo!

LOL! Yeah, I goofed on the words. Never bleed a brake while trying to type. The funnel was almost dry and I rushed to put fluid in it so no air sucked in.

Tailors and BeSpoke suit makers.

[e-RICHIE]

LOL! Yeah, I goofed on the words. Never bleed a brake while trying to type. The funnel was almost dry and I rushed to put fluid in it so no air sucked in.

Tailors and BeSpoke suit makers.

Regardless, if these workers use a sewing machine, or assemble garments from materials sourced elsewhere, it's not that_much_different than a bicycle maker who uses pre-fabbed components or subassemblies (can you say forks...). Or one who has a lot of machinery in place to rid his daily labor of repetitive work that can be easily programmed and yields a more exact/precise result time after time. Of course, then there are those who want the idiosyncrasies that are part and parcel of hand-made. One's not really better than the other.

[GonaSovereign]

Seems to me folks all over the world use their hands to make things, but somehow only American hands are worthy of the title “handmade”.

It's a global term, actually.
In Italy:
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4472/37392549644_f0d41c13ca.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YYfAgN)Pegoretti_fatti_con_le_mani (https://flic.kr/p/YYfAgN)

In France, Cyfac describes its biz this way: "Quand vous utiliserez un vélo Cyfac, vous remarquerez la différence qui vient d’une fabrication artisanale et d’une production par la main de l’homme qualifié"

And in Germany it's handarbeit.


Interesting thread.

[dustyrider]

It's a global term, actually.
In Italy:
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4472/37392549644_f0d41c13ca.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/YYfAgN)Pegoretti_fatti_con_le_mani (https://flic.kr/p/YYfAgN)

In France, Cyfac describes its biz this way: "Quand vous utiliserez un vélo Cyfac, vous remarquerez la différence qui vient d’une fabrication artisanale et d’une production par la main de l’homme qualifié"

And in Germany it's handarbeit.


Interesting thread.

I have a hard time phrasing my thoughts about the term handmade.
Handmade strikes me as term most commonly used by those people who find higher value in things made by people of a specific country of origin.
It’s often associated with companies that promote their locality first and foremost while they gloss over the fact they’re just assembling parts made in some other country.
In my OP, America could have been replaced with any country that has a populace eager to spend money on what essentially equates to a feeling.

As a teenager, I worked at frye’s measure mill in Wilton, NH. It had stopped making every piece of wood required to assemble the colonial/shaker style boxes long before I arrived. The bases/lids are plywood with maple veneer and the nails holding it in come out of a nail gun. The decorative brass nails used to hold the shape are made somewhere else too. The molds used to shape the boxes and the forms used in drying were made many years before I ever got there and duplicated as use degraded them. The water driven belt drive machines that were used to fabricate all the pieces on site had become museum pieces by that point. After seeing what handmade meant it made our production seem less so. What I did amounted to little more than stick a model together with glue. Whoever posted the picture of the blacksmith got it right. If you don’t make every piece of the thing, it isn’t handmade. It’s hand assembled.

[Bob Ross]

The only "automated" machine I have is a drill press (hand-fed), and that's only used to make holes, not cut miters.

This raises the issue of degree of handmade-ness:

If framebuilder A uses a milling machine to miter the ends of tubes, and framebuilder B carves those tube ends with a hacksaw and a file, is one frame more handbuilt than the other?

And does anyone care?

[cadence90]

This raises the issue of degree of handmade-ness:

If framebuilder A uses a milling machine to miter the ends of tubes, and framebuilder B carves those tube ends with a hacksaw and a file, is one frame more handbuilt than the other?

And does anyone care?
No.

And no.
.
.

[Kontact]

It's funny how de-humanizing there term "handmade" is, since certain welders output is "by hand" and all the rest are effectively machines.

"Handmade" seems more like a booby prize for those that bought a production item but pine for bespoke. Especially when NO ONE makes a steel frame completely by hand. I know people who are capable of forging steel tubing by hand on a mandrel, but they don't make bicycles.

Seven's are more or less handmade. So are Surlys. We're all just going to have to deal with that. I have truly handmade knives, so using that term for bicycle frames seems off base and just marketing.


Can we talk about what "natural" means in food, next? Very similar.

[shovelhd]

Boy ain't that the truth!

I worked in a nice restaurant during college that served up Costco lasagne and put it in a clay plate/bowl with semi-homemade sauce on it, called it "homemade." Oh and charged a lot of money for it to boot!

What's amazing is that no food critic could put two & two together and taste different sauces inside the lasagne and the "gravy" that was poured on top of it.

Sorry for the slight tangent....

Please out them so that I can avoid that place. :)

[William]

It's funny how de-humanizing there term "handmade" is, since certain welders output is "by hand" and all the rest are effectively machines.

"Handmade" seems more like a booby prize for those that bought a production item but pine for bespoke. Especially when NO ONE makes a steel frame completely by hand. I know people who are capable of forging steel tubing by hand on a mandrel, but they don't make bicycles.

Seven's are more or less handmade. So are Surlys. We're all just going to have to deal with that. I have truly handmade knives, so using that term for bicycle frames seems off base and just marketing.


Can we talk about what "natural" means in food, next? Very similar.


So I guess that depends on how far you want to extend the term "Hand Made". Did your knife maker mine and smelt the ore used to make up the metal used in the knife? Is Dale Chihuly's glass work fully "hand made" since he used an electric moly furnace to get the glass molten to work with?







William

[fignon's barber]

If it says "hand made" on it, the seller benefits from a 50% mark up. If it says "fatto a mano"....well that's a different story.

[parco]

Is "handmade" from a Guild mentality? Very few artists do everything themselves. They have assistants who are learning the trade and completing small portions of the whole. There are numerous paintings and drawings attributed to Verrocchio that some speculate were actually done by DaVinci's hand. Andy Warhol had a "factory" to produce his art, some of which probably his only contact was when he signed it. Did Michelangelo paint the entire Sistine chapel with his own hand? But if I want something truly made only by the artist himself I have to wait (Richard Sachs, seven years?) or I have to pay, (Tom Ritchey $10K). If the artist is overseeing the production of an item and they put it out because it meets their standards, I'm OK with that.

[David Tollefson]

... But if I want something truly made only by the artist himself I have to wait (Richard Sachs, seven years?) or I have to pay, (Tom Ritchey $10K)....

SO many more choices with neither of those issues...

[Mark McM]

However, if you are referring to "the idea of a personal connection to goods" as more a romantic myth than any actual reality, then, yes, this does play into it, and the Italians in particular play into it very well indeed.
.
.

Yes, that's what I was getting at. The label "hand made" is usually used to evoke a romantic myth, rather than descriptive reality. Today, virtually no goods are made entirely by being worked or manipulated by hand, nor are goods made entirely without being worked or manipulated by hands. Being "hand made" is not an either/or proposition, at best it is a matter of degrees.

I think there are some parallels between the "hand made" label and the "made in USA" label. Lots of products carry "made in USA" labels even though they are made from a high degree of foreign materials and components. And regardless of the actual reality, both labels are often applied to specifically to evoke a certain quality or connectedness of the product.

[sales guy]

Regardless, if these workers use a sewing machine, or assemble garments from materials sourced elsewhere, it's not that_much_different than a bicycle maker who uses pre-fabbed components or subassemblies (can you say forks...). Or one who has a lot of machinery in place to rid his daily labor of repetitive work that can be easily programmed and yields a more exact/precise result time after time. Of course, then there are those who want the idiosyncrasies that are part and parcel of hand-made. One's not really better than the other.

Not disagreeing at all. Just look at rear ends of frames. Many builders like us, IF and others who are bespoke or hand made builders like yourself were buying carbon rear seatstays for a bit there. Clearly not made by us. Which is why I listed my comment as a product that is from start to finish- concept, design, production and delivery in house. Which of course you do. I don't think getting say a block of billet and turning it into a seatpost or stem like Thomson makes them anymore "hand made" or "bespoke" than others. They are still doing everything in house which is the difference unlike Surly or Salsa or even Specialized to use a bigger name.

[Kontact]

So I guess that depends on how far you want to extend the term "Hand Made". Did your knife maker mine and smelt the ore used to make up the metal used in the knife? Is Dale Chihuly's glass work fully "hand made" since he used an electric moly furnace to get the glass molten to work with?

William
Some start with hand smelted sand iron. But now you're saying that the work had to be all by a single set of hands. Where is that in the definition of "handmade"?

A vast number of bicycles are "handmade production". People were deeply involved in every step after the tubes left the mill and the lugs left the rotary casting facility. Drawing lines that say the guy who did the brazing on an old Univega is less than the guy who welded my non-custom Merlin is just a lie I could tell myself. Very similar hand labor was performed by both.

[Kontact]

Not disagreeing at all. Just look at rear ends of frames. Many builders like us, IF and others who are bespoke or hand made builders like yourself were buying carbon rear seatstays for a bit there. Clearly not made by us. Which is why I listed my comment as a product that is from start to finish- concept, design, production and delivery in house. Which of course you do. I don't think getting say a block of billet and turning it into a seatpost or stem like Thomson makes them anymore "hand made" or "bespoke" than others. They are still doing everything in house which is the difference unlike Surly or Salsa or even Specialized to use a bigger name.

"In house" is a fine thing to brag about, it just doesn't have anything to do with "handmade" or not.

[EricEstlund]

When I talk about my bikes being handmade, it is not to denigrate others and is simply a description of what happens in my shop.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/485/31927712734_d8287077ed.jpg

[Kontact]

When I talk about my bikes being handmade, it is not to denigrate others and is simply a description of what happens in my shop.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/485/31927712734_d8287077ed.jpg

That's beautiful work, and deserving of a description with more gravitas than simply "handmade". A Surly may also be handmade, but the lugs aren't hand cut.

[EricEstlund]

Thank you. I'd never use the word to take away from the good work the folks on the Surly line do in day in and day out. I'd just use other words to talk about the extra stuff I do.

I've worked in a bike factory, and I've worked on my own. What I do now is no more or less handmade, but how I use my hands and what I can prioritize are different.

[William]

Some start with hand smelted sand iron. But now you're saying that the work had to be all by a single set of hands. Where is that in the definition of "handmade"?

A vast number of bicycles are "handmade production". People were deeply involved in every step after the tubes left the mill and the lugs left the rotary casting facility. Drawing lines that say the guy who did the brazing on an old Univega is less than the guy who welded my non-custom Merlin is just a lie I could tell myself. Very similar hand labor was performed by both.

Yeah, all I said was it depends on where you set the parameters of the definition, not that it had to be from the basic atoms to finished product in one set of hands.






William

[e-RICHIE]

Not disagreeing at all. Just look at rear ends of frames. Many builders like us, IF and others who are bespoke or hand made builders like yourself were buying carbon rear seatstays for a bit there. Clearly not made by us. Which is why I listed my comment as a product that is from start to finish- concept, design, production and delivery in house. Which of course you do. I don't think getting say a block of billet and turning it into a seatpost or stem like Thomson makes them anymore "hand made" or "bespoke" than others. They are still doing everything in house which is the difference unlike Surly or Salsa or even Specialized to use a bigger name.


I think it was Dufour, actually it was DuFour, who said - and I'm paraphrasing now - "Everything now is manufactured, not made." in reference to the horology trade. He was including himself too. With rare exception, all of us use parts for which some or most of the thinking and labor is taken care of by the actual process that makes the parts. Sure, we can enhance them or personalize them. At the end of the day, we are using hands but less and less.

For the longest time, I resisted, believing that cast parts were cheating and also took some of the humanity and creative work away from the trade I was finally getting used to having a slice of for my own self. That ended by 1983 when I finally let go and embraced new technologies. Short of an homage frame or two each season, there's no amount of money one could pay me to use components from the old days.

[Kontact]

I think it was Dufour, actually it was DuFour, who said - and I'm paraphrasing now - "Everything now is manufactured, not made." in reference to the horology trade. He was including himself too. With rare exception, all of us use parts for which some or most of the thinking and labor is taken care of by the actual process that makes the parts. Sure, we can enhance them or personalize them. At the end of the day, we are using hands but less and less.

For the longest time, I resisted, believing that cast parts were cheating and also took some of the humanity and creative work away from the trade I was finally getting used to having a slice of for my own self. That ended by 1983 when I finally let go and embraced new technologies. Short of an homage frame or two each season, there's no amount of money one could pay me to use components from the old days.

Are you contrasting cast lugs with stamped lugs, or something else? Weren't stamped lugs made in dies?

[e-RICHIE]

Are you contrasting cast lugs with stamped lugs, or something else? Weren't stamped lugs made in dies?

They were. And they were in eras prior to the migration over to OS dimensions. So by the 80s, you couldn't find a mainstream supplier of non cast parts who wasn't (still) using Eisenhower era tech to fabricate them. The lost-wax process replaced all of this. But with it, the parts became more refined and the ability to mimic hand-work came with it.

All parts, from all eras, are machine made. That's normal. The exception is making your own three lugs and bb shell using cylinders brazed or welded together and shaping them. That's fine. It's beyond quaint. But it doesn't represent a business model. Hobbies aside, no one made frames, and a living, doing it that way.

[Kontact]

They were. And they were in eras prior to the migration over to OS dimensions. So by the 80s, you couldn't find a mainstream supplier of non cast parts who wasn't (still) using Eisenhower era tech to fabricate them. The lost-wax process replaced all of this. But with it, the parts became more refined and the ability to mimic hand-work came with it.

All parts, from all eras, are machine made. That's normal. The exception is making your own three lugs and bb shell using cylinders brazed or welded together and shaping them. That's fine. It's beyond quaint. But it doesn't represent a business model. Hobbies aside, no one made frames, and a living, doing it that way.

I could see why brazing tubes together to make lugs instead of simply brazing the frame tubing directly would be a pretty quaint practice. Lugs always were labor saving alternative to fillet brazing.

[e-RICHIE]

Lugs always were labor saving alternative to fillet brazing.

Hmm. My sense of the trade's history wouldn't agree with that.

No matter.

[Kontact]

Hmm. My sense of the trade's history wouldn't agree with that.

No matter.

I had seen enough of this kind of construction to assume that lugless brazing, like is done for other types of lightweight tube construction, had to precede complex socket lugs by a few years.

http://cyclart.com/content/1890s-piece-bicycle-restoration

Tubular gussets were certainly always in use and are arguably lugs.

No big argument, just something I find interesting.

[cribbit]

There are many things I would rather see made by accurate, perfect machines than even the best human hands.

[beeatnik]

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/264/32756867885_c6125fe64d_h.jpg


https://farm1.staticflickr.com/773/31924999294_c62d3d45eb_h.jpg


https://farm1.staticflickr.com/451/32388187130_9026959948_h.jpg


https://farm1.staticflickr.com/464/32388187700_33bbe21cd1_h.jpg


https://farm1.staticflickr.com/507/32614924192_2e330bb634_h.jpg


https://farm1.staticflickr.com/305/32388188620_d53c13ee62_c.jpg


https://farm1.staticflickr.com/613/32644671451_b3db1886db_c.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94bNyh6BBB0

[rain dogs]

This is a very relevant and passionate conversation for me. I think that the term "handmade" infers, or did, or should, about the process and the person/people involved in that process.

This starts with the distinction between someone who is a master/expert of, or mastering all the stages of the process of creation, and does each of those things (or trains an apprentice to do them in the same way), vs someone who outsources those stages to other "experts" and has little to no knowledge of that stage of the process. And at each stage of the process there should be value add by said expert. The "hand" to me is the fingerprint. If you don't know, or don't want to learn how, or cannot do to do any of the major stages of the creation of your product, then should you be using the term "handmade" or any of it's synonyms?

I make clothing professionally, for a living. I market that under brand names.

The easy/fast/low-value (IMHO) but maybe better ROI way for me to get from A to B is to design a logo, order pre-made, in-style garments from a catalogue of chinese products, send said items to an embroidery/screenprint/sublimation shop and put my aesthetic on it, say it's "handmade" cause it's unique and not from The Gap and charge a premium for it.

Instead, how I, as one individual who does all of these steps, often daily, is:
Select specific compositions, knits and colors of my textiles.
Design said item
Create a pattern for said item in a single size.
Grade that size for a range of sizes and sexes (S-XL Mens, XS-L Womens)
Cut the textile
Sew the garment (I personally sew 90% of the garments we make)
Finish said garment - embroidery, created in-house, processing done by me
I do the photography, web design, instagram, product testing, branding, everything...
and I can adjust every or one part of sais process for any specific client who comes to order our goods.

Now, I do not work alone because there isn't 80hrs in everyday, but everything is done in studio by people that have been trained by me to do the above things how I would do them, or improve on how I would do them. And those people are within feet of me, we work together, eat together, talk, discuss, refine and change, and I learn from them too, and I improve.

Now, handmade means very little today because people use it to describe both those above scenarios. And they are not the same obviously, not even close. And I think a term would be great to have for that distinction. Far too many people think that because they do one thing by hand, even if it is signing the UPS waybill to receive a box, it's handmade!

So, what's the word? Or what's the identifier of said type of working process? because "handmade" has been diluted, and likely many of the frame builders, micro brewers, carpenters, artists etc face the same.

Maybe it's insanity-made, could-have-been-way-easier-made, obsessively-made, ... those just don't quite pop.

[Kontact]

So, what's the word? Or what's the identifier of said type of working process? because "handmade" has been diluted, and likely many of the frame builders, micro brewers, carpenters, artists etc face the same.

How has 'handmade' been diluted? When was it that hand work in China didn't count as handmade?


I think people today would like the term to mean something it never did, for lack of a better way to express their connection to their products. But an imported foreign made item has always been "handmade" if people made it with their hands.

"Made in USA", "Made in house", "Made by our ten person team" are all to the point.

[rain dogs]

How has 'handmade' been diluted? When was it that hand work in China didn't count as handmade?


For this exact reason! That you today equate the word "handmade" with only the fact that people who possess hands and fingers were involved in the manufacturing. Surely it is more than identifying that random anonymous people have hands. And that certainly isn't what the majority of individuals 10 years ago were implying by having handmade on their "tags" - that some person who may or may not have hands did this work. So, if that's is what it is today - it's diluted.

If someone buys a generic T-shirt made in China and screenprints it with a wordmark or logo. Is it handmade?

If someone cuts and sews a T-shirt to their exact design desires and then screenprints their logo on it. Is it handmade?

Feel free to substitute bikeframe for T-Shirt, and screenprint for paint, and sews with welds/brazes.

To me, the "Made" aspect implies making the product from raw materials to finished piece. If you do only one part of the process... it isn't "made", instead it is "printed" or "painted" or "cut" or "stained" etc. The "Hand" being a set of hands.... a fingerprint. The handmaker. The carpenter. The builder...

[unterhausen]

Are you contrasting cast lugs with stamped lugs, or something else? Weren't stamped lugs made in dies?

then they were welded by hand. Maybe some of the Japanese lugs were welded by machine, but I doubt it. I don't think a machine ever made a weld so random as the welds found on most European lugs. At least Nervex had a clean bore, not so much on Prugnat lugs. Cinelli stamped lugs were pretty nice.

[holliscx]

If you can shake the builder's hand before he welds your frame then it's handmade.

[Kontact]

For this exact reason! That you today equate the word "handmade" with only the fact that people who possess hands and fingers were involved in the manufacturing. Surely it is more than identifying that random anonymous people have hands. And that certainly isn't what the majority of individuals 10 years ago were implying by having handmade on their "tags" - that some person who may or may not have hands did this work. So, if that's is what it is today - it's diluted.

If someone buys a generic T-shirt made in China and screenprints it with a wordmark or logo. Is it handmade?

If someone cuts and sews a T-shirt to their exact design desires and then screenprints their logo on it. Is it handmade?

Feel free to substitute bikeframe for T-Shirt, and screenprint for paint, and sews with welds/brazes.

To me, the "Made" aspect implies making the product from raw materials to finished piece. If you do only one part of the process... it isn't "made", instead it is "printed" or "painted" or "cut" or "stained" etc. The "Hand" being a set of hands.... a fingerprint. The handmaker. The carpenter. The builder...

Well, no. "Handmade" means that the work was done by hand, not whether the work was done in a local workshop or not.

If a custom parts maker makes cool parts on his CNC equipment, that's a pretty cool story, but it isn't "handmade".

If an unknown worker in a Chinese factory hand welds your Giant frame, that really is "handmade". Someone did skilled hand labor to produce the frame.


"Handmade" should mean hand made vs. machine made, not used to reflect issues that have nothing to do with the involvement of skilled labor.

[Kontact]

then they were welded by hand. Maybe some of the Japanese lugs were welded by machine, but I doubt it. I don't think a machine ever made a weld so random as the welds found on most European lugs. At least Nervex had a clean bore, not so much on Prugnat lugs. Cinelli stamped lugs were pretty nice.

My point is that the lion's share of the work to make those stamped lugs was a machine stamping process using dies. But a hand weld was used to close the stamped shape. Cast lugs also require some hand work to remove the sprue and clean up.

I'm contrasting that with something like making a lug from scratch by welding two short lengths of mitered tube together, like some builders do to make titanium lugged carbon frames. Stamped lugs are made of a single piece of sheet metal.

[charliedid]

For me and many others I think at least in part has to do with scale and how closely involved ownership is to the entire process and end product.

It's more of a signifier than a literally defined term.

[rain dogs]

Well, no. "Handmade" means that the work was done by hand, not whether the work was done in a local workshop or not.


Fair enough that your definitions are yours, but that seems to be the minority opinion, as Charlie said^^. And I didn't say anything that relates handmade to local. And you're above telling me that Made in the USA, or made in house is supposed to give the client more information than Handmade in the USA?

Do people forget as well of all the bike frames that were being labelled "Handmade in Italy" when in fact they were just being painted and assembled in Italy. Laws changed over that.

Would you buy your mother a piece of Ikea furniture and present it to her saying "That piece there is handmade, Merry Christmas" whether anonymous factory hands were involved in the process or not? And in fact why not? Or if your buddy proudly shows you his new handmade piece of furniture do you think "all my Ikea crap is handmade, what's the big deal? In fact, I handbuilt it myself!?!?"

[Kontact]

Fair enough that your definitions are yours, but that seems to be the minority opinion, as Charlie said^^. And I didn't say anything that relates handmade to local.

Do people forget as well of all the bike frames that were being labelled "Handmade in Italy" when in fact they were just being painted and assembled in Italy. Laws changed over that.

Would you buy your mother a piece of Ikea furniture and present it to her saying "That piece there is handmade, Merry Christmas" whether anonymous factory hands were involved in the process or not? And in fact why not? Or if your buddy proudly shows you his new handmade piece of furniture do you think "all my Ikea crap is handmade, what's the big deal? In fact, I handbuilt it!?!?"

I don't, because I don't confuse "hand made" with quality or design.

Would you choose a poorly handmade item over a nicely machine made item? Is a knife CNC'd in Idaho in a custom shop better or worse than a hand forged knife made of an old leaf spring in a Burmese jungle? Only one of those is remotely handmade, but I would hope you'd be judging things outside of that.

By conflating quality and place of origin with the level of hand work involved, you are making things muddy. And muddy is just bad marketing that eventually pisses customers off. That is why I suggested many phrases that are both positive and accurate to advertise products without taking away the literal meaning of "handmade".


I have an old Fuji lugged frame laying around here. I imagine a Japanese man with a torch hand brazed every lug. I'm not going to go around and brag about my "handmade frame", nor am I going to denigrate Richard Sachs by saying "yeah, my Fuji is handmade, too". The term only has so much utility, and becomes less meaningful every time marketeers misuse it.

[shovelhd]

Fair enough that your definitions are yours, but that seems to be the minority opinion, as Charlie said^^.

Add one to the "minority". Kontact and I are on the same page.

[rain dogs]

Well, this is very informative, thank you. Definitions matter. I don't like using handmade for this very reason.

So, that brings me back to my original question:

So, Kontact, ShovelHD what's YOUR word? Or what's the identifier of said type of working process? The building of something by an individual or small team, in a unique, controlled, process-based, master-apprentice environment. Custom sizes. Materials etc. Non mass-production. But that you want to describe with a compelling word or two extra.

Is it just Made in ______? Because actually "MADE" is even more problematic than "hand". There are massive percentages of people not making anything, they are decorating or finishing and they change the claim of origin of where the item was made. As did a certain Italian bike brand - the bike was MADE in China, not Italy. but that's not what they said.

So, Bikes, Furniture, Clothing, Home goods, whatever the good may be.

Assuming the functional output is adequately similar (it's not that Specialized makes poor bicycles) but there is a price distinction.

A quick search of the first bikeframe, bike bag, bike accessory and bike clothing brands I could think of use Handmade in a way that wouldn't fit your definition.

[Kontact]

Well, this is very informative, thank you. Definitions matter. I don't like using handmade for this very reason.

So, that brings me back to my original question:

So, Kontact, ShovelHD what's YOUR word? Or what's the identifier of said type of working process? The building of something by an individual or small team, in a unique, controlled, process-based, master-apprentice environment. Custom sizes. Materials etc. Non mass-production. But that you want to describe with a compelling word or two extra.

Is it just Made in ______? Because actually "MADE" is even more problematic than "hand". There are massive percentages of people not making anything, they are decorating or finishing and they change the claim of origin of where the item was made. As did a certain Italian bike brand - the bike was MADE in China, not Italy. but that's not what they said.

So, Bikes, Furniture, Clothing, Home goods, whatever the good may be.

Assuming the functional output is adequately similar (it's not that Specialized makes poor bicycles) but there is a price distinction.

A quick search of the first bikeframe, bike bag, bike accessory and bike clothing brands I could think of use Handmade in a way that wouldn't fit your definition.
I did already offer:
"Made in USA", "Made in house", "Made by our ten person team" are all to the point.

But I prefer something like:
"Designed and fabricated completely at our Woodbury facility."



You can use handmade if your product is made (largely) by hand. But so can Giant if the shoe fits, and maybe you don't want to wear those same shoes.

[zennmotion]

They were. And they were in eras prior to the migration over to OS dimensions. So by the 80s, you couldn't find a mainstream supplier of non cast parts who wasn't (still) using Eisenhower era tech to fabricate them. The lost-wax process replaced all of this. But with it, the parts became more refined and the ability to mimic hand-work came with it.

All parts, from all eras, are machine made. That's normal. The exception is making your own three lugs and bb shell using cylinders brazed or welded together and shaping them. That's fine. It's beyond quaint. But it doesn't represent a business model. Hobbies aside, no one made frames, and a living, doing it that way.

The 3 lugs on my steel Spectrum were made by Jeff Duser prior to assembly and final brazing, standard process for him. As the customer, I paid for his experience, he can do it anyway that works for him as far as I'm concerned. It's cool that he does that though. Arghh, now I need to consider a repaint from Tom with flames or something so it's paint beyond quaint! :help:

[Kontact]

The 3 lugs on my steel Spectrum were made by Jeff Duser prior to assembly and final brazing, standard process for him. As the customer, I paid for his experience, he can do it anyway that works for him as far as I'm concerned. It's cool that he does that though. Arghh, now I need to consider a repaint from Tom with flames or something so it's paint beyond quaint! :help:
Any idea how they make the lugs? Welding tubes, lost wax, forging, stamping? I could see any of these possibly being used by a small shop.

[pbarry]

Any idea how they make the lugs? Welding tubes, lost wax, forging, stamping? I could see any of these possibly being used by a small shop.

4130 tubing brazed with silicon bronze, iirc. Frame brazing is done with silver at a lower temperature than the lug fabrication uses.

[Kontact]

4130 tubing brazed with silicon bronze, iirc. Frame brazing is done with silver at a lower temperature than the lug fabrication uses.

Fascinating. Thank you.

[nobuseri]

Read through this; very good read and a lot of interesting takes on what handmade means. These days, in the literal sense of the word, no on is really doing it. Subjectively, it can prob be used to describe most of the bespoke builders as they are building things to spec - using jigs or not.

I guess I need to use the term “handmade” with care (caution?) as the cafe stops and bike chat could get quite lengthy.

[Kontact]

Read through this; very good read and a lot of interesting takes on what handmade means. These days, in the literal sense of the word, no on is really doing it. Subjectively, it can prob be used to describe most of the bespoke builders as they are building things to spec - using jigs or not.

I guess I need to use the term “handmade” with care (caution?) as the cafe stops and bike chat could get quite lengthy.

What do you mean no one is doing it? Hand made artisans are booming in the US right now.

[nobuseri]

What do you mean no one is doing it? Hand made artisans are booming in the US right now.

In the literal sense of the word “handmade,” meaning from raw materials to a finished product, I would put a very high wager that not many are doing it.

Artisan and bespoke are prob better terms to describe the majority. And by those terms, I agree with your statement. :beer:

[Kontact]

In the literal sense of the word “handmade,” meaning from raw materials to a finished product, I would put a very high wager that not many are doing it.

Artisan and bespoke are prob better terms to describe the majority. And by those terms, I agree with your statement. :beer:

I don't think "hand made" has ever literally meant that even the raw materials had to be gathered and refined by hand.

There is certainly a point where someone is merely "assembling" rather than "making". But a leather worker ought to get full credit for hand making something even though he didn't skin the horse and tan the leather in urine.

Some types of manufacturing involves so little hand work that it doesn't qualify at all. For something like building a lugged frame out of factory tubing and lugs, it is still handmade, but the conversation about what a builder like Spectrum does vs. one using more off the shelf components is simply good discussion rather than a line in the sand.


In general, I would rather there was more acknowledgement of skilled hand labor rather than less. That's why I would like to see "hand made" used more appropriately and for people to market their products with more specificity to their process.

Our saddles are assembled by hand, but that just isn't important to what the customer receives. But handbuilt wheels are generally superior to machine built, and this is worth noting to customers.

[FlashUNC]

Unless someone is pulling the ore from the earth by hand, and smelting the metals they will use, it's not hand made enough.

Can also only use tools they've made by hand.

[nobuseri]

Agree. I think there should be more recognition (distinction?) made between something "off the line" vs. hand crafted. I prefer bespoke frames (when I can afford them - new or used), as I like to support that market. Was somewhat playing devil's advocate by taking the extreme angle of the term "handbuilt."

Rest assured, there are folks that will argue from that perspective though. The term has always led to a very interesting discussion - no matter the product.


I don't think "hand made" has ever literally meant that even the raw materials had to be gathered and refined by hand.

There is certainly a point where someone is merely "assembling" rather than "making". But a leather worker ought to get full credit for hand making something even though he didn't skin the horse and tan the leather in urine.

Some types of manufacturing involves so little hand work that it doesn't qualify at all. For something like building a lugged frame out of factory tubing and lugs, it is still handmade, but the conversation about what a builder like Spectrum does vs. one using more off the shelf components is simply good discussion rather than a line in the sand.


In general, I would rather there was more acknowledgement of skilled hand labor rather than less. That's why I would like to see "hand made" used more appropriately and for people to market their products with more specificity to their process.

Our saddles are assembled by hand, but that just isn't important to what the customer receives. But handbuilt wheels are generally superior to machine built, and this is worth noting to customers.

[unterhausen]

My point is that the lion's share of the work to make those stamped lugs was a machine stamping process using dies. But a hand weld was used to close the stamped shape.
I'm pretty sure the Nervex pro lugs I'm working on (slowly) right now have taken more work than most bilaminate lugs made out of tubing. They were stamped, welded, and then some maniac with a belt sander made a mess out of them. It's just for this bike, I wanted those lugs. For most builders, lugs get a pretty thorough going over, even the cast ones. The shoreline is never right, and the surface really isn't usable as-cast. And none of this can be done well with machines.

[tigoat]

I think "hand crafted" or "Taylor made" would be a better term for me.

Along the same line, most custom bicycle builders are not really "custom" anyway regardless of how much hand work they have in the process. When you ask for something, they would say oh I cannot do this or I don't that, and pretty soon you have to wonder what custom work can you really do. If you want to see custom machines, take a look at those custom motorcycle builds, as each one is truly unique.