NYC Terrorist attack on Hudson River Greenway Bikepath

[djg21]

The NY Times is reporting another mass shooting. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/31/nyregion/police-shooting-lower-manhattan.html

Other new sources are reporting that the shooter also may have tried to mow down cyclists in a cycling lane with his truck before opening fire. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41825577

http://www.timesunion.com/news/crime/article/NYPD-responding-to-shots-fired-near-World-Trade-12320803.php

I’ll refrain from editorializing and just hope that all our NYC forumites are OK.

[gasman]

Let’s not make this political or about gun control but merely that we hope for the best. I’m grateful the suspect is in custody.

[torquer]

ABC reports six dead among those hit by a truck on the bike lane near Stuyvesant HS. Driver then fired shots, but was apparently shot himself (by cops.)
http://abcnews.go.com/US/york-city-officers-responding-reports-shots-fired-lower/story?id=50842052
2nd Edit: NY Times reports guns were fakes.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/31/nyregion/police-shooting-lower-manhattan.html

[54ny77]

Terrible terrible terrible.

Prayers & condolences for those injured or killed.

It's a sick world.

[AngryScientist]

Oh man; terrible is right. I just hopped on the PATH at WTC downtown, and there was definitely an increased police presence. I was wondering what was up. What on earth is wrong with people; this is getting much too frequent. Sad.

[jimcav]

I think it was on MSNBC. looked awful. I hope the death toll is not high but it was a large home depot rental truck in the pics on TV, so hard to imagine getting run over by that and being ok

[R3awak3n]

I think there are more than 2 dead. I am pretty close to there right now, at work. Terrible.

[tumbler]

So sad. Used to ride on that path all the time.

[galgal]

I'm pretty close at work too. Sirens, helicopters. Saw a pic of mangled bikes. Awful.

[William]

From what I've heard so far they drove into people with their vehicle../

Edit:
At least six people are dead and others injured after a truck drove onto a bike path in lower Manhattan in New York City. The sprawling crime scene runs several blocks along the West Side Highway, a few blocks away from One World Trade Center.

A vehicle entered the West Street pedestrian and bike path north of Chambers Street, hitting multiple people on the path, leaving some dead and "numerous people injured," New York City police said, citing preliminary investigation.

The vehicle kept driving south until it hit another vehicle, police said. At that point, the suspect, who was "displaying imitation firearms," got out of the vehicle and was shot by responding officers, authorities said.

The suspect is in custody, police said.






William

[hokoman]

I was suppose to go on a ride up to the GW this week. Thankful it was not today. Terrible situation. 7 dead now.

[msl819]

From what I've heard so far they drove into people with their vehicle, then got out and fired some shots before being taken out.


William

The NY Times article cited first states that he drove his truck down what seems to be a bike lane, hitting and killing multiple people before getting out with two fake guns. I am unclear as to if this was a shooting, a road rage incident, etc. Terrible anyway you look at it. Just not clear to me what happened.

[William]

The NY Times article cited first states that he drove his truck down what seems to be a bike lane, hitting and killing multiple people before getting out with two fake guns. I am unclear as to if this was a shooting, a road rage incident, etc. Terrible anyway you look at it. Just not clear to me what happened.

Yes, I already edited my post.




William

[oldpotatoe]

The NY Times article cited first states that he drove his truck down what seems to be a bike lane, hitting and killing multiple people before getting out with two fake guns. I am unclear as to if this was a shooting, a road rage incident, etc. Terrible anyway you look at it. Just not clear to me what happened.

‘Death by cop’? Imitation guns?

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

‘Death by cop’? Imitation guns?

Suicide by cop. Was thinking the same thing. Shot perp in the ass, he lived.

[msl819]

‘Death by cop’? Imitation guns?

Obviously the individual was troubled, whatever the reason. That said, given what little we know, I would not be surprised if the perp had it in his mind to create chaos before allowing or inciting the NYPD officers to take matters into their own hands.

[rnhood]

Too bad the suspect is alive.

[BobO]

It's being investigated as political terrorism.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/31/us/new-york-shots-fired/index.html

[Wilkinson4]

Awful, looks like a terrorist attack. Captured so maybe something can come of it. Be diligent and careful folks, on and off the bike. Bless all First Responders.

Mike

[Bruce K]

Yelling “Allah akbar” according to some reports.

NYPD calling it a terrorist act.

Paintball gun and pellet gun recovered at the scene. No real firearms involved.

PD shot him in the butt!

News conference now.

BK

[William]

The OP might want to edit the title for better clarity.




William

[sales guy]

https://cyclingtips.com/2017/11/multiple-fatalities-truck-plows-cyclists-bike-path-manhattan/

So sad.

[bigbill]

I'm glad the shooter is alive, it prevents so much speculation and allows for quicker response by law enforcement to round up everyone involved before any other potential acts can be carried out. I just hope he was a lone actor.

[ANAO]

I ride that path, that EXACT stretch of road, thrice weekly.

I even turn off right there.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[shovelhd]

The pictures of the crushed bikes are sickening.

[Wilkinson4]

The pictures of the crushed bikes are sickening.

I literally got chills when I saw that. just horrible.

Mike

[jimcav]

I ride that path, that EXACT stretch of road, thrice weekly.

I even turn off right there.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

that has to be sobering to consider. Only silver lining I can think of is the plane vs house scene in 'the world according to garp'--by that perspective hopefully that path is now safe as possible (although an admittedly poor analogy, since any copycat can ruin it)

[bicycletricycle]

Too bad the suspect is alive.

Although it seems wrong I have to say that I agree, better to remove these types quickly and cheaply.

[Bruce K]

Still hoping OP will edit his title.

The only shooting here was of the perpetrator by the NYPD

BK

[bironi]

Better to have the suspect alive. Speculation vs facts. Think of the Las Vegas investigation. You can wish him dead, but the possibility of motives remain elusive and more so with the main actor deceased.

[Llewellyn]

Better to have the suspect alive. Speculation vs facts. Think of the Las Vegas investigation. You can wish him dead, but the possibility of motives remain elusive and more so with the main actor deceased.


Agreed, better that the suspect can spend the rest of his life in a cell contemplating what it's like to have his freedom taken away. Although that won't go down well with the "eye for an eye" crowd.

[FlashUNC]

Vengeance isn't justice. All the better he's alive, as others mentioned, to dig into motive.

Giving in to bloodlust and fear is exactly what terrorists want. And we're all to eager to play in to their hands.

[bironi]

Agreed, better that the suspect can spend the rest of his life in a cell contemplating what it's like to have his freedom taken away. Although that won't go down well with the "eye for an eye" crowd.

According to the latest news reports, that would be 2 eyes to 16 eyes. This is not an equation.

[Satellite]

My hopes and prayers to those effected by this tragedy.

[Matthew]

I have been doing corrections since 1991. You would be surprised just how "easy" many of these cretins find prison life to be. In a way I am glad he was taken alive so maybe we can find out some sort of motive, etc. But my guess is he will not be thinking "boy did I screw up my life." Hardly, if ever do I see many prisoners express any remorse or regret for doing what they have done. And if this POS did indeed shout what the witnesses are claiming he will likely have a sense of pride the rest of his life because of his beliefs and hatred for western civilization. Personally, I'd rather have this scumbag suffer a horrible death than live the rest of his life watching cable t.v., eating three meals a day in a climate controlled environment. If that puts me in the eye for an eye crowd so be it. These poor victims never had a chance. F this dirt bag.

[AngryScientist]

suicide, or effective suicide is the cowards way out, and likely what he was hoping for with the fake guns brandishing.

let him answer for his crimes, IMO.

[rnhood]

I agree, its an abomination to keep him alive, and for years in Taj Mahal prisons with taxpayers getting bilked for the cost, medical care, and probably for the cost of a new prayer rug.

We have been trying to get in their heads since 2001, with civilized approaches, and more stringent approaches like waterboarding. Was it really successful? I just don't have much faith in our interrogations especially when it's radical islam at hand.

[parris]

Matthew dont forget health care, programs, free practice of his chosen religion, as well as a number of things that I'm forgetting at this time.

And you assesment on how many inmates feel when inside is spot on. I'm in my 22nd year at a county facility so we see the same individuals.

[General69]

Seems suspicious that he couldn't get a real gun in the land of guns.

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[parris]

General in what way? NY is among the toughest states when it comes to legal access. Also its WAY less expensive to rent a truck as this incident clearly reminds us.

[Matthew]

Yeah, my ER visits cost me $200 each time unless I get admitted. Prisoners are charged $5 for visiting our health care facility. And don't even get me started on the cost of medications for my family that prisoners don't pay for at all. Sorry, but it's sickening to me.

[General69]

General in what way? NY is among the toughest states when it comes to legal access. Also its WAY less expensive to rent a truck as this incident clearly reminds us.No permit is required for the purchase of a rifle or shotgun (except in New York City). Seems pretty easy to go outside city limits to get one. This was planned far enough ahead to get a pellet gun.

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[MattTuck]

Absolute tragedy. Mass murderer. Period.

I have plenty of feelings on criminal justice system, but will save that for another thread. At this point, my heart simply goes out to the victims and their families.

[parris]

Our facility has 24-7 med staff with 2 medical units. There's a DR on call during off hours and he's on site several days a week. We also have mental health staff with it's own DR. If there's something beyond our on site facility we take the inmate to the hospital. If the condition of the inmate requires admittance we have and officer(s) with the inmate 2-7 during their hospital stay UNLESS due to the category of crime a judge can release the inmate from our custody. That happens in rare cases though. The people of NYS end up paying those costs.

[jlwdm]

Seems suspicious that he couldn't get a real gun in the land of guns.

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????

Why suspicious? What did he need a real gun for?

Jeff

[joosttx]

According to the latest news reports, that would be 2 eyes to 16 eyes. This is not an equation.

"Hate begets hate; violence begets violence; toughness begets a greater toughness. We must meet the forces of hate with the power of love" MLK

[beeatnik]

Matthew and Parris, with all due respect, when I read your posts I think two things: I wonder if the CO's union is still a major player in CA politics and I'm even more disturbed by what was revealed by the documentary 13th.

Full disclosure: my wife is a PO.

[parris]

Beetnik no offense taken. I work at a county facility and we see EVERY crime before someone's convicted and sentenced to prison, found not guilty and released, found guilty and sentenced to local time, probation, intermittent sentencing, etc.

I'm not familiar with the documentary you listed. Where can it be found?

PO? Probation Officer, Parole Officer, Police Officer?

[fiamme red]

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manhattan/argentine-belgium-tourists-dead-manhattan-attack-article-1.3602815

Most of the dead and wounded were tourists.

Five of those killed after a terrorist plowed a rental truck through a lower Manhattan bike path were visiting New York from Argentina to celebrate the 30th anniversary of their college graduation, consulate officials confirmed.

The Argentine government identified the slain as Hernan Mendoza, Diego Angelini, Alejandro Pagnucco, Ariel Erlij and Hernan Ferruchi...:(

[Matthew]

I have not seen the documentary either. I worked 9 years in a county jail and the last 17 in a couple state penitentiaries. From a level 5 maximum security to a level 1 minimum. Maybe my experiences have swayed my feelings, I'm not sure. All I can go on is by what I have seen in 26 years inside the walls. I see very little regret and remorse and a whole lot of blaming the system, others, etc. Is there injustice for some? Absolutely. But from the behavior I see on a regular basis it is hard for me to be sympathetic.

[MagicHour]

Good thoughts to those affected...happened 2 blocks from us. :(

[Elefantino]

Things like this always strike me as a vengeance vs. justice argument that can never be solved. Some might say there is no way to prove that the death penalty is a deterrent or that there is no way to prove that it isn't. Others might just as convincingly argue that there is ample proof of the opposite(s).

In an ideal world, killing someone should be seen as amoral whether perpetrated by a criminal or by a state. We dont live in an ideal world. Today reminds us that, in fact, it is far from it.

[cachagua]

It's only academic, I know, but what makes something "terrorism" and something else just garden-variety mayhem?

[Scuzzer]

Without intent it's just mayhem

[William]

My heart goes out to all those touched by this.

Unfortunately its just another sad example that evil people will do evil things. The tools can change but someone bent on creating mayhem and carnage will find a way.







William

[shovelhd]

Without intent it's just mayhem

The intent of ISIS is well known and understood. Hopefully, the fact that he survived will save future lives. I'm willing to pay his imprisonment costs for that.

[93legendti]

Definition of mayhem

1 a :willful and permanent deprivation of a bodily member resulting in the impairment of a person's fighting ability
b :willful and permanent crippling, mutilation, or disfigurement of any part of the body
2 :needless or willful damage or violence movies filled with murder and mayhem


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mayhem


“Terrorism Definitions
International terrorism: Perpetrated by individuals and/or groups inspired by or associated with designated foreign terrorist organizations or nations (state-sponsored).
--for example, the December 2, 2015 shooting in San Bernardino, CA, that killed 14 people and wounded 22 which involved a married couple who radicalized for some time prior to the attack and were inspired by multiple extremist ideologies and foreign terrorist organizations.

Domestic terrorism: Perpetrated by individuals and/or groups inspired by or associated with primarily U.S.-based movements that espouse extremist ideologies of a political, religious, social, racial, or environmental nature.
--for example, the June 8, 2014 Las Vegas shooting, during which two police officers inside a restaurant were killed in an ambush-style attack, which was committed by a married couple who held anti-government views and who intended to use the shooting to start a revolution.”

https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/terrorism





C’mon...

[William]

Not sure why we are getting into semantics here but the term applies imo.

Mayhem is a common law criminal offense consisting of the intentional maiming of another person. ... Later the meaning of the crime expanded to encompass any mutilation, disfigurement, or crippling act done using any instrument.







William

[ripvanrando]

Prayers for the victims......

[William]

And no reason for this to shift to gun/gun law debates because they were a non-issue in the incident...other than to apprehend the perp.





William

[93legendti]

Not sure why we are getting into semantics here but the term applies imo.









William

Not legally. Sorry. This was terrorism.

http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1230

Another poster brought it up:


It's only academic, I know, but what makes something "terrorism" and something else just garden-variety mayhem?

[jimcav]

on the side-tangents raised in this thread, but I for one am truly glad he didn't have a real gun for when his primary weapon failed him, as then there'd just be more dead. I don't know enough about legal gun rules to know if an immigrant 7 years in the USA could get one, but glad he did not. The lack of remorse is unfathomable to me. Especially since I'd assume the goal was to get gunned down as a martyr and go to heaven etc, having failed that, I would just think there would be some reflection on what he did and some remorse. Terrible thing for the familes involved--loved ones gone who played no part in any of this idiot's internally generated false "war" or ideals.

I also dislike the speculative reporting that was on last night--wish we had the capacity to await the results of investigation. I'm hoping they can do an in depth analysis of how a "happy uber driver" became this monster supposedly by the internet. really hoping there is a cyber-counter to such things soon.

[William]

Not legally. Sorry. This was terrorism.



I'm not arguing that it wasn't.





William

[Mikej]

Edit: just sorry this **** happens, that's all.

[93legendti]

on the side-tangents raised in this thread, but I for one am truly glad he didn't have a real gun for when his primary weapon failed him, as then there'd just be more dead. I don't know enough about legal gun rules to know if an immigrant 7 years in the USA could get one, but glad he did not. The lack of remorse is unfathomable to me. Especially since I'd assume the goal was to get gunned down as a martyr and go to heaven etc, having failed that, I would just think there would be some reflection on what he did and some remorse. Terrible thing for the familes involved--loved ones gone who played no part in any of this idiot's internally generated false "war" or ideals.

I also dislike the speculative reporting that was on last night--wish we had the capacity to await the results of investigation. I'm hoping they can do an in depth analysis of how a "happy uber driver" became this monster supposedly by the internet. really hoping there is a cyber-counter to such things soon.

Good points. The toy guns were mocking those who try to turn a terrorist incident into a gun control debate as in San Bernardino. If one studies the history of terrorism, the terrorists rush to claim responsibility for acts of terror-unlike criminals or those committing “mayhem”, who don’t want to be caught. Terrorists want the notoriety. They want be a shahid. They want streets and plazas named after them.

[93legendti]

I'm not arguing that it wasn't.




William

Sorry, I misread your post.

[William]

on the side-tangents raised in this thread, but I for one am truly glad he didn't have a real gun for when his primary weapon failed him, as then there'd just be more dead...

I don't disagree with you. I'm also glad he didn't have hatchets or knives with him. I've seen incidents of this in the Middle East where they use a vehicle to hit people and then jump out and go after others with edged weapons. It appears his plan was to get taken out by waving paint/pellet guns when he couldn't continue his rampage. I'm glad they were able to apprehend this perp quickly.







William

[William]

Sorry, I misread your post.

No problem.





William

[shovelhd]

What I can't get out of my mind is how much worse this could have been. It's bad enough. But just think if he just woahed up at Chambers, Warren, etc., enough to get through each intersection. Unstopped, he could have gone all the way to Battery Park.

[redir]

I also dislike the speculative reporting that was on last night--wish we had the capacity to await the results of investigation. I'm hoping they can do an in depth analysis of how a "happy uber driver" became this monster supposedly by the internet. really hoping there is a cyber-counter to such things soon.

It's pretty much why I won't even respond in threads like this till days later when they usually get locked anyway. I worked in a news room, small town TV news, but we had an international incident one day and the so called 'reporting' from the big news networks was all about getting something first and fast and the facts don't matter till it's all cleaned up.

[cmg]

best thing that could happen is that he be put away quickly and quietly without a lot of press coverage. feel so sorry for the victims

[djg21]

It's only academic, I know, but what makes something "terrorism" and something else just garden-variety mayhem?

It is an academic question that has been discussed and written about extensively over the past decades, and which still is debated. Caleb Carr (military historian and author of The Alienist among other great historical novels) wrote an excellent book called Lessons of Terror: A History of Warfare Against Civilians. https://www.amazon.com/Lessons-Terror-History-Warfare-Civilians/dp/0375760741. Carr defines terrorism “as deliberate warfare against civilians” as a political and military strategy. Some argue this definition too narrow because it doesn’t address attacks on military personnel or military installations. https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=444680.

[oldpotatoe]

best thing that could happen is that he be put away quickly and quietly without a lot of press coverage. feel so sorry for the victims

Wonder if this could become a federal case and he be faced with the death penalty? Does NY have the death penalty?

[KJMUNC]

Heard an interesting take on local news this AM from an eyewitness who was on the opposite side of the street as it happened. He was an older gentleman who grew up in London during terrorism in the 70's/80's and said he was surprised that most people just stood frozen in fear or filming with their phones and didn't run/take cover as the guy was running around with the gun (albeit only a fake one, but no-one knew that). His point was that in the reality of today's society where this is always a threat, especially in large cities with crowds, people need to be more aware of what to do if this happens and we should teach kids to run/hide if they hear gunfire or see something like this.

Not to minimize what happened, but it could've been significantly worse if that gun was real or the guy went on a full rampage after he got out of the truck.

[parris]

Spud NY does not have the death penalty. The state reenacted the death penalty in the mid-late 80's. It was then struck down in the spring of 2003 or 2004. I was in court on a capital case when the proceeding came to a halt when the judges law clerk came in with a note from the Appelete(sp) division striking down the law. He and all lawyers involved had to go into chambers to get clarification to see if the trial could continue with new jury instructions or if it would be declared a mistrial.

[parris]

KJM what you're relaying sounds like the people on the street had what's known as "normalcy bias". It's a very interesting subject to look into.

[tctyres]

What I can't get out of my mind is how much worse this could have been. It's bad enough. But just think if he just woahed up at Chambers, Warren, etc., enough to get through each intersection. Unstopped, he could have gone all the way to Battery Park.

He was also driving there at a really low volume time. Rush hour hadn't started. Had he been near Penn Station at that time or two hours later, he could have done much worse just running a red light into pedestrian traffic. I'm not sure what this guy's motive was or what he was thinking. He certainly was not going for maximum damage.

I'm glad they got him alive.

[sipmeister]

It's pretty much why I won't even respond in threads like this till days later when they usually get locked anyway. I worked in a news room, small town TV news, but we had an international incident one day and the so called 'reporting' from the big news networks was all about getting something first and fast and the facts don't matter till it's all cleaned up.

Good point. Early on, one of the networks was saying it was a result of 'road rage.' I see road rage regularly and it doesn't end up like this. It's obvious what this was. Very sad that it happened. Prayers for the victims and their families.

[Seramount]

I'm also glad he didn't have hatchets or knives with him. I've seen incidents of this in the Middle East where they use a vehicle to hit people and then jump out and go after others with edged weapons. William

just reported that the perp had multiple knives...some found in the truck, others outside it...

luckily he didn't use them to increase the carnage.

[19wisconsin64]

Sad. My heart goes out to those killed, hurt, and affected. This has stunned the cycling community of NYC.

Right after 9/11 I moved here in 2002. Several times a week I rode that path where the people were killed yesterday. I rode down, along the Hudson, stopped my bike where they were working on "the pit" where the twin towers stood, said a prayer, and then rode down to the bottom of Manhattan where I could stop, look out at Ellis Island, and think of my Grandparents and their journey here. ...... but this is just my story of that path. It's too much for me to think about this, or make sense of it, or what it means. It's just sad.

The path was always hectic with walkers, runners, cyclists, skateboarders, and every now and then a doggie or two. It was seen as a safe place.

[reuben]

NEW YORK — The man convicted of killing eight people by driving a truck on a New York bike path in 2017 will serve life in prison without a chance for parole as punishment, after a federal jury could not reach a unanimous decision on whether to sentence him to death.

The jury in the death penalty phase of the federal case against Sayfullo Saipov, who was convicted of the killings in January, had heard emotional testimony from relatives of victims and survivors at U.S. District Court in Manhattan.

Separate article:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/13/us/verdict-trial-saipov-bike-path-attacker/index.html

[redir]

Took 5 years to get to this point? That's just crazy. Good, honestly the death penalty is the easy way out. Solitary confinement at least 22 hours a day is well deserved.

[reuben]

Manhattan U.S. Attorney Damian Williams said in a statement that Saipov, 35, was motivated by devotion to the Islamic State when he purposely drove a 6,000-pound vehicle onto the path and “proudly maintained” that conviction afterward, including during his trial.

Jurors weighed the federal government’s case in favor of death for Saipov, which included prosecutors saying he hoped to become part of the Islamic State militant group, planned the attack and showed no remorse after the killings on Oct. 31, 2017.
...
Saipov was convicted of 28 counts, including murder.

[Peter P.]

Took 5 years to get to this point? That's just crazy.

Didn't matter. He was in custody, already wasting his life away.

[Tandem Rider]

This may or may not be a popular opinion, but I am glad that the wheels of justice continue to turn, much too slow for these instances where it seems "cut and dried", but they usually work out "right" and I would rather that when they occasionally err, it is in such a way that an innocent person goes unpunished than the other way around.