Boulder Valley Velodrome for sale

[pncguy]

Weren't we just talking about how successful velodromes can or cannot be in the US?

http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-business/ci_31397114/sale-4-7m-boulder-valley-velodrome-erie

[Tickdoc]

had a chance to ride it last year....but I chose a shop trip to Mosaic instead :cool:

[David Tollefson]

Dammit, I just bought a house...

[MattTuck]

Interesting.

How many weeks out of the year is it open?

[pncguy]

Interesting.

How many weeks out of the year is it open?

Last day is 11/5 for this season. You could check the calendar (http://www.bouldervalleyvelodrome.com/calendar/) to see when it opened this year. I don't know offhand.

[MattTuck]

Last day is 11/5 for this season. You could check the calendar (http://www.bouldervalleyvelodrome.com/calendar/) to see when it opened this year. I don't know offhand.

March 4th, according to that link. Actually, not bad. Only 4 months of downtime is better than I'd have thought. Still, I don't see how a for-profit investor could do this. I think for it to be sustainable, the facility has to be paid for by a non-profit, with operations generating enough cash flow to fund maintenance and programming.

I just don't see how you could make that kind of investment back.

[pncguy]

March 4th, according to that link. Actually, not bad. Only 4 months of downtime is better than I'd have thought.

A secret we like to keep is that the snow doesn't really last that long as soon as you get a little bit away from the foothills, so Boulder proper and east tends to have dry (if cool) riding for a lot of the winter.

[ultraman6970]

To me the price is reasonable, you have a lot of land in there, the bad thing is that I doubt you can built a neighborhood in that area (yet)... :D

Was a millionare I would buy it just to enjoy it myself like eric cartman :D

[echelon_john]

I'd donate to a GoFundMe for this before saving Vaughters' team...

[gdw]

Annual memberships are $400 and they claim to have hundreds of members. If they actually have 500 people paying full memberships than they're only bringing in $200,000 a year. Additional fees might generate $75-100,000 so they might be taking in $300,000 a year. After subtracting the costs of running the business the profits are minimal if it is profitable. If those figures are in the ballpark, finding a buyer willing to drop $4.7 million on the track will be difficult if not impossible.

[shovelhd]

Is it really only a 250 foot track, or was Banta misquoted? If so, then that's a crazy price to pay for a practice facility.

[nooneline]

Is it really only a 250 foot track, or was Banta misquoted? If so, then that's a crazy price to pay for a practice facility.

it's a 250m.

[11.4]

Is it really only a 250 foot track, or was Banta misquoted? If so, then that's a crazy price to pay for a practice facility.

250 meters isn't a practice facility. It's the standard length for UCI world events these days.

As for the valuation of a track, the proposed price is only that, to begin with. Beyond that, no track is valued based on membership alone. You also have racing revenue, extensive sponsorship revenue, spectator admissions, hopefully TV revenue, and plenty of other sources of revenue. And at that point you probably don't declare a profit. One will also be seeking local support from community, county, and other sources. Plus donations. Annual auctions/dinner/etc. Plus class fees, clinic fees, and on and on. Add potential parking fees, rent to local food trucks, restaurants, vendors, bike shops, etc. This is why tracks frequently fail -- it takes an exhausting amount of work, without respite, to keep any track alive, and if you want a deep racing and community program, it only gets more exhausting. The people who have made their tracks successful deserve every compliment you can muster.

[nooneline]

Yeah it probably doesn't come back as profit - it comes back as staff salaries and capital improvements. In the black? Finally give your staff raises. Or start paying those volunteers and interns. Etc. Hire people to make **** sustainable. Pay a company to do the repaint and repair instead of asking people in the community to help out.

At least, that's what happened at the track I helped out at.

[gdw]

A question for the locals.....
Do you know anyone who uses or has used the velodrome?

[cloudguy]

A question for the locals.....
Do you know anyone who uses or has used the velodrome?

Yeah, a guy that used to work with me discovered that he wasn't really a roadie, but loved the track. I'm guessing he still trains there.

[oldpotatoe]

Weren't we just talking about how successful velodromes can or cannot be in the US?

http://www.dailycamera.com/boulder-business/ci_31397114/sale-4-7m-boulder-valley-velodrome-erie

I think 2 things spelled their undoing..in Erie and not at least covered. For a Velodrome to succeed it needs to be in Boulder proper(ain't gonna happen..8 attempts, 8 shootdowns, mostly by NIMBY people) and indoors..IMHO, of course. AND at least 250 meters..:)

For right above..yes, I know a few guys who ride road but really love the track..couple of masters racers, one guy age group, master US champ..

[shovelhd]

250 meters isn't a practice facility. It's the standard length for UCI world events these days.


I know. The article quoted the owner as saying it was a 250 foot track.

[rockdude]

A question for the locals.....
Do you know anyone who uses or has used the velodrome?

I ride it at least twice a week, Many of the top Master's and Elite racers in Boulder area use it regularly. It seem like everyone is wearing the stars and bars or rainbow on their selves. As racers have found the velodrome improves power and strength across many disciplines. During the Master's World championships last week, the BVV riders brought home something near 40 medals. If BVV was a nation they would have been third in the medal count.

The community they have created is the real value at the facility. For most people Track riding is new, they have done a great job introducing people to the track and it will take more then two years to see its potential. As a Coach, I see the value and recommend my riders to get on the track at least once a week. They have weekly races and there and they are pretty packed with people. I see a lot of positive things happening there, but believe the ownership has moved on to other things. They started their work on this 14 years ago, times have changed for both of the owners.

[oldpotatoe]

I ride it at least twice a week, Many of the top Master's and Elite racers in Boulder area use it regularly. It seem like everyone is wearing the stars and bars or rainbow on their selves. As racers have found the velodrome improves power and strength across many disciplines. During the Master's World championships last week, the BVV riders brought home something near 40 medals. If BVV was a nation they would have been third in the medal count.

The community they have created is the real value at the facility. For most people Track riding is new, they have done a great job introducing people to the track and it will take more then two years to see its potential. As a Coach, I see the value and recommend my riders to get on the track at least once a week. They have weekly races and there and they are pretty packed with people. I see a lot of positive things happening there, but believe the ownership has moved on to other things. They started their work on this 14 years ago, times have changed for both of the owners.

Thanks for the info, sounds like a healthy, going concern. Great to hear.

[HenryA]

I’ve meant to ride there for a couple of years now, but every time I visit the kids (who live right down the road) there the weather is prohibitive or SWMBO has other plans. I agree that a cover over the track would be an important factor in attendance and hope that someone can keep it running.

[11.4]

A roof always helps, but it also makes it more expensive to build and more expensive to maintain (heating, security, and so on).

Don't expect it to break even. Expect to work hard to get it close, with support from local community governments and hopefully some decent sponsors. I've gotten a couple tracks to break even with heavy member recruitment, and am hoping to do that with another one soon. It's takes a lot of work and a full program of activities and fundraising. That's a wishful price that says they want to get their money, or most of it at least, out of the deal. Instead, ask what you can actually raise from the town, from a couple sponsors, from local shops, and from riders and racing. That's your price. Price it conservatively.

[pbarry]

Kinda sad to hear this. The asking price is way high, imo, but probably represents current market value of the land and the construction costs. This project was sold as an altruistic venture, and it can remain so if the partners decide to sell at their cost plus 50% or so. The surface is less than optimal: Low cost was a definite priority in the building process. A roof or bubble was never in the works, afaik. Both partners can afford to break even on this and I hope they do the right thing if serious proposals are made from parties who will keep the track going.

[likebikes]

the velodrome wasn't built to last to begin with- shoddy construction, wood construction, no protection of any sort from the elements, wood directly touching/laid on the ground, no concrete footings, etc. and it was wrecked a couple times before it even opened from a couple of natural disasters? i seem to remember a flood and then a tornado destroying it at least 2x.

[nooneline]

the velodrome wasn't built to last to begin with- shoddy construction, wood construction, no protection of any sort from the elements, wood directly touching/laid on the ground, no concrete footings, etc. and it was wrecked a couple times before it even opened from a couple of natural disasters? i seem to remember a flood and then a tornado destroying it at least 2x.

Yeah, there was a windstorm before it was completed - because it hadn't been built all the way around at that point, it wasn't strong, and a section got knocked over.

https://www.coloradocycling.org/sites/default/files/Images/bvv_photo_by_bvv.jpg

Being wood doesn't mean it's not built to last. And, from pictures, it looks like it's sitting on a concrete foundation.

http://www.boulderrealestatenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/bike-track-neighborhood.jpg

[nooneline]

A roof always helps, but it also makes it more expensive to build and more expensive to maintain (heating, security, and so on).

Don't expect it to break even. Expect to work hard to get it close, with support from local community governments and hopefully some decent sponsors. I've gotten a couple tracks to break even with heavy member recruitment, and am hoping to do that with another one soon. It's takes a lot of work and a full program of activities and fundraising. That's a wishful price that says they want to get their money, or most of it at least, out of the deal. Instead, ask what you can actually raise from the town, from a couple sponsors, from local shops, and from riders and racing. That's your price. Price it conservatively.

fwiw, the NSC velodrome breaks even, although its books don't include the initial cost of construction.

i've seen indoor velodrome proposals with strong business plans that recoup construction costs, but those rest on them being built as multi-purpose venues, not relying on cycling (or sponsorship) as sole sources of income or operation.

[rockdude]

From a riders point of view, on a clam day, its the fast track in the US and has the very good geometry. The track was built to be a world class track that UCI events could be held at. Several National federations have come there to train when in the Americas. The National and International Track Community holds the track in pretty high regards. I'm seeing a lot of negative chatter from people who are not track riders and have never been on the track. O ya, I forgot its the internet and everyone is an expert.

[nooneline]

yeah, i was initially skeptical of the surface but i'm told that it's very firm and not at all like Hughes-style plywood surfaces.

[pncguy]

the velodrome wasn't built to last to begin with- shoddy construction, wood construction, no protection of any sort from the elements, wood directly touching/laid on the ground, no concrete footings, etc. and it was wrecked a couple times before it even opened from a couple of natural disasters? i seem to remember a flood and then a tornado destroying it at least 2x.

Floods and tornadoes have destroyed lots bigger than a velodrome around here in the past several years. Do you have a reference and basis for your opinion that it wasn't built to last?

[_G_]

I'm with Peter, part of the challenge is not being in Boulder. For whatever reason this is a big deal to many. A roof or bubble of some sort would have been swell. I understand how this runs up costs, but even that little track in the warehouse was super fun. We drove in plenty of evenings in the winter to race. Summer competes with a lot of other activities. An indoor, winter track series would have been AMAZING! To their credit, USOC keeps getting in the way of making it work in Colorado Springs, so maybe it is way harder than I imagine.

I had several conversations with Doug during the planning and early execution. The "club" model was an interesting business approach and I'm not sure how it did or did not work out for them. Given his past business success, I wasn't going to question him too much.

As a cyclist from another part of the state, I often felt like the most unwelcome form of second class citizen. "No, you can't train without a club affiliation even when the track was empty. This isn't a bowling alley" coupled with being asked to certify on their track. I had demonstrated results on the little track in Boulder, a 250 in Frisco TX, and 333 in Colorado Springs. I was not always on the top step, but certainly was safe on a track. If Pat had not intervened I truly believe they would have turned me away and forced me to take a certification class.

I found deep irony that USAC and USOC could not manage to properly leverage having two tracks on the front range. The number of people who race in Dallas and Houston in the same week was a mindblowing experience to me. We could not avoid stepping on each other's toes with tracks less than 100 miles apart!

I hope the future owners keep a track there and wish them nothing but success.

[pdonk]

When I helped with a plywood track in Dieppe, New Brunswick the stated life expectancy of the surface was 10 to 12 years. Now almost 15 years later they have only needed to do a partial resurfacing.

As for the wood on dirt argument. I assume the trusses sit on sacrificial blocks that are used to level the track each spring after the frost is out of the ground and replaced regularily. The trusses, if treated should last at least 25 years

With respect to costs. A 250 m track needs about 1000 sheets of marine grade, one side good plywood and 320 trusses. When we built Dieppe the track cost about $125k not including surface prep or land.

[11.4]

fwiw, the NSC velodrome breaks even, although its books don't include the initial cost of construction.

i've seen indoor velodrome proposals with strong business plans that recoup construction costs, but those rest on them being built as multi-purpose venues, not relying on cycling (or sponsorship) as sole sources of income or operation.

I'd agree that with good management a track can consistently break even on an operating basis. The issue in this thread is that the current owners seem to seek a buyer for whom revenues can also amortize a significant amount of debt. That's what's unrealistic here. I hate to say it, but a track is pretty much a sunk cost and nonrecoverable. Once it's there, one maintains and operates it with an eye to modest profitability. That's about all one should expect.

[11.4]

When I helped with a plywood track in Dieppe, New Brunswick the stated life expectancy of the surface was 10 to 12 years. Now almost 15 years later they have only needed to do a partial resurfacing.

As for the wood on dirt argument. I assume the trusses sit on sacrificial blocks that are used to level the track each spring after the frost is out of the ground and replaced regularily. The trusses, if treated should last at least 25 years

With respect to costs. A 250 m track needs about 1000 sheets of marine grade, one side good plywood and 320 trusses. When we built Dieppe the track cost about $125k not including surface prep or land.

The actual construction cost right now of an uncovered 250m 46 degree plywood track, without any buildings, storage containers, bleachers, etc., is about $3.1 million. That's welded steel trusses and 9/8 marine plywood, and lights for evening use. That was a best bid obtained about two months ago. One can run it, crudely, from used storage containers at roughly $1K/container and use a portable building for admin, sound, registration, race secretary, and the like. After covering a track and providing basic amenities (plumbing, storage, electronic timing, billboard, heat/air, lighting, etc.) the cost goes up to around $16 million basic and $20+ million with a few frills.

[cnighbor1]

I take it
Charles

[pdonk]

The actual construction cost right now of an uncovered 250m 46 degree plywood track, without any buildings, storage containers, bleachers, etc., is about $3.1 million. That's welded steel trusses and 9/8 marine plywood, and lights for evening use. That was a best bid obtained about two months ago. One can run it, crudely, from used storage containers at roughly $1K/container and use a portable building for admin, sound, registration, race secretary, and the like. After covering a track and providing basic amenities (plumbing, storage, electronic timing, billboard, heat/air, lighting, etc.) the cost goes up to around $16 million basic and $20+ million with a few frills.

WOW that is a lot more than we spent. We used wood roof trusses and it was totally no frills in any way. Time passes and old experiences become history and less than relevant, and I am not that old.

Thanks for sharing.

[nooneline]

I'd agree that with good management a track can consistently break even on an operating basis. The issue in this thread is that the current owners seem to seek a buyer for whom revenues can also amortize a significant amount of debt. That's what's unrealistic here. I hate to say it, but a track is pretty much a sunk cost and nonrecoverable. Once it's there, one maintains and operates it with an eye to modest profitability. That's about all one should expect.

Yes, I agree that construction is a sunk cost. That's why the more velodromes I see come (and go, too, unfortunately), the more I'm convinced that the way to go isn't private ventures but public ones. The longest-running tracks in the country are mostly in public parks, aren't they? City or state government funds the initial constructions and then turns over management and operation to a public-private partnership or a nonprofit org.

[11.4]

WOW that is a lot more than we spent. We used wood roof trusses and it was totally no frills in any way. Time passes and old experiences become history and less than relevant, and I am not that old.

Thanks for sharing.

Design (if you want a fast track), engineering standards to meet safety standards (essential for a public venue or one in any public venue), etc. Those all cost. The correct paint costs almost $2K per coat for an outdoor track and should have minimum two coats, twice a year. Rails cost almost 40k in steel alone. Either a tunnel under or steps outside to get up to the track surface (and steps need to meet safety standards, have rails, etc.). It goes on and on.

[rockdude]

Here is a little more information than was provided by the press release.

http://www.westword.com/news/boulder-valley-velodrome-for-sale-9628622

[shovelhd]

Great video. Gave me chills.

[Tickdoc]

what is the minimum building size required for an indoor track?

[MattTuck]

The actual construction cost right now of an uncovered 250m 46 degree plywood track, without any buildings, storage containers, bleachers, etc., is about $3.1 million. That's welded steel trusses and 9/8 marine plywood, and lights for evening use. That was a best bid obtained about two months ago. One can run it, crudely, from used storage containers at roughly $1K/container and use a portable building for admin, sound, registration, race secretary, and the like. After covering a track and providing basic amenities (plumbing, storage, electronic timing, billboard, heat/air, lighting, etc.) the cost goes up to around $16 million basic and $20+ million with a few frills.

Around here (New England) I actually think that an indoor track could do pretty well in the winter, as a lot of serious riders would probably become members for the winter evenings and weekends when riding outside is either dangerous, unpleasant or impossible.

[KarlC]

Great video. Gave me chills.

What with the bumps at 4-7 seconds into the video ?

[shovelhd]

what is the minimum building size required for an indoor track?

It's not so much the area, it's the height. I'd think you'd need three stories minimum, but I'm no expert.

[11.4]

It's both. As your track gets bigger the engineering costs of supporting a roof get big very fast. Most six-day tracks are in the 168-188 meter range, in part because they want to squeeze in all the seats they can and because many of the tracks are demountable and use facilities where they get installed once a year. All of this factors in.

As for the height, ensuring wind stability, snow load, etc. all gets more expensive as a roof gets higher. It also creates a lot more volume you have to cool or heat. It's the seating rather than the track surface itself that's the killer.

[nooneline]

What with the bumps at 4-7 seconds into the video ?

that's just track rumble combined with the chestcam shaking.

what is the minimum building size required for an indoor track?

Big.

Tracks seem small until you're at one and you realize that even on a midsized one, a football field can fit on the infield, and if you want to cover it and have it be worth a damn you're gonna need a pretty big buffer around the edges.

[oldpotatoe]

Here is a little more information than was provided by the press release.

http://www.westword.com/news/boulder-valley-velodrome-for-sale-9628622

Banta says that the sale isn't because the velodrome has run into financial trouble. Rather, Emerson is moving to Mexico

Holy crap...he's been battling with the 'authorities'..his wife is from Mexico, in Mexico...wonder if U-Bikes will be up for sale also?

[rockdude]

It truly is the home of Champions.

http://www.bouldervalleyvelodrome.com/2017-podium-champs/