OT*-Who do you think should get the Amazon headquarters?

[bikinchris]

Leaving aside the point that getting the second Amazon HQ, who do think should get it?
Some of the criteria:
Well educated populous
Bike paths and infrastructure
International Airport
Housing
Access to major roads

Boston is trying very hard, except they aren't offering deep tax breaks. If they get it they will be ahead of places like New Jersey, who is trying to give away the farm. Boston has MIT, Harvard etc. Decent public transportation, an old racetrack for a campus, I 93 and I 95.

Atlanta, Washington DC and others can match most of that.

Who do you guys think should get it?

[beeatnik]

Monterey, MX

[rwsaunders]

The NYT predicted Denver a while back...here's a link to the RFP.

https://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=17044620011

[Matthew]

Hopefully Grand Rapids, Michigan.

[hankchong]

Cincinnati

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[zzy]

I think a suburb of Denver. Doubt they'll go all the way to the East coast.

[Louis]

They'll go to whatever area's stupid enough to give them a huge tax break.

[bigbill]

Atlanta, GA and Charlotte, NC for the SE.
Cincinnati, OH for the East/Midwest.
I'd vote Cincinnati for the airport alone although it's in Kentucky. It was my favorite airport for international travel.

[Louis]

I'd vote Cincinnati for the airport alone although it's in Kentucky.

I've often wondered how this works - does Kentucky get all the tax revenue from the airport, or is there some sort of sharing agreement with OH / Cincinnati?

[Ken Robb]

I really hope it is NOT Chula Vista, CA. which abuts San Diego. Our orads are overcrowded and our homes are already VERY expensive. The last thing locals need is the addition of 50,000 employees earning an average of $100,000 a year and their families.

[pncguy]

They'll go to whatever area's stupid enough to give them a huge tax break.

If this is true, and I can't imagine how it isn't, Denver is out of the running. I have heard "our" proposal has eight sites to choose from, but does not contain much - if any - tax relief. I'm not sure I dislike that approach, but it does make it less likely that we'll get it.

Of course, I just heard today that the Colorado unemployment rate is just 2.2%, which is the second lowest in the country. Ah. Just looked it up: North Dakota at 2.4%, Colorado at 2.5%...

https://www.bls.gov/web/laus/laumstrk.htm

[Schmed]

Please not Denver. Traffic is getting worse by the day and unemployment is 2.5%. I can't find anyone to hire as it is!

[adub]

I really hope it is NOT Chula Vista, CA. which abuts San Diego. Our orads are overcrowded and our homes are already VERY expensive. The last thing locals need is the addition of 50,000 employees earning an average of $100,000 a year and their families.

Ya a bunch of low paying employment would be much better for a local economy :rolleyes:

[Ken Robb]

Ya a bunch of low paying employment would be much better for a local economy :rolleyes:g a bunch of

The area is OVERCROWDED now so an influx of 50,000 employees plus their families would make it much worse.

[Tickdoc]

Ya a bunch of low paying employment would be much better for a local economy :rolleyes:

I'm w Ken, stay outa my town. I like our lack of traffic and cheaper housing.

[Jaybee]

Please not Denver. Traffic is getting worse by the day and unemployment is 2.5%. I can't find anyone to hire as it is!

Agree. I moved here in August and you should shut the gates after me.

[dustyrider]

I’m voting for China.

[Vientomas]

Don't know, don't care...just so long as the drones deliver overnight.

[gdw]

Please not Denver. Traffic is getting worse by the day and unemployment is 2.5%. I can't find anyone to hire as it is!

It's time to build the wall and make California and New York pay for it.

[bigbill]

I'm w Ken, stay outa my town. I like our lack of traffic and cheaper housing.

I was thinking about Jenks next, so yeah.

[kookmyers]

I really hope it is NOT Chula Vista, CA. which abuts San Diego. Our orads are overcrowded and our homes are already VERY expensive. The last thing locals need is the addition of 50,000 employees earning an average of $100,000 a year and their families.

But we have such great bike infrastructure and plenty of water for everyone!
:help:

[ctcyclistbob]

1) 2017 Hartford Cyclocross National Championships
2) 2018 North American Handmade Bicycle Show (NAHBS)
3) Amazon HQ #2

[likebikes]

I'm w Ken, stay outa my town. I like our lack of traffic and cheaper housing.

don't worry, tulsa isn't in the running.

[joosttx]

Dallas, Tx

[oldpotatoe]

monterey, mx

potd!!!!

[oldpotatoe]

I think a suburb of Denver. Doubt they'll go all the way to the East coast.

I'm thinking east of Denver between Denver proper and DIA..Aurora-ish..Not that I think Amazon, them coming to CO, etc is a great idea..CO has the second lowest unemployment in the country behind North Dakota..:eek:

[fa63]

I want Atlanta to get it for selfish reasons. Two of the potential sites they are talking about are within a few miles of our house, and we would love to sell high and move out of the city to help fund our early retirement :)

[dancinkozmo]

no brainer..... they should build Amazon in the Amazon !
they could quickly staff up with the largely untapped sloth workforce...

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/56/bb/3a/56bb3acb80214ff1ed6cf989593dbe68.jpg

[fignon's barber]

My prediction is Austin,TX. But it will come down to who can bribe them with the most tax breaks. That being said, the municipality will still need to build more schools/infrastructure/etc. And if there is no incoming Amazon tax base, the current townspeople will foot the bill.

[simplemind]

My prediction is Austin,TX. But it will come down to who can bribe them with the most tax breaks. That being said, the municipality will still need to build more schools/infrastructure/etc. And if there is no incoming Amazon tax base, the current townspeople will foot the bill.

Please not Austin...too damn many texting, prematurely-self-assured, trust fund millennials here already!

[Seramount]

My prediction is Austin,TX. But it will come down to who can bribe them with the most tax breaks. That being said, the municipality will still need to build more schools/infrastructure/etc. And if there is no incoming Amazon tax base, the current townspeople will foot the bill.

hoping that our lack of mass transit will be a deal-killer for AUS.

but, the city council LOVES to offer huge tax breaks to rich mega-companies that don't need them.

[William]

... But it will come down to who can bribe them with the most tax breaks.

In Mass Worcester is throwing in as well as Boston...

The city of Worcester submitted a bid Tuesday that offers up to $500 million in local real estate tax savings, a 100 percent personal property tax exemption over 20 years, an investment tax credit through the state, and research and development tax credits. The bid proposed nearly 100 acres along Route 20 as the potential site where Amazon should build its second headquarters.

The state publicly released its bid Friday, touting the state as a whole. Rather than focusing on one site, it lists 26 sites from Suffolk Downs in Boston, to New Bedford, to Pittsfield, where Amazon could build.


The Governor of RI threw out a pitch as well but they aren't disclosing what that bid was yet. RI will probably end up with a satellite office for about 30 people that the State will have pitched a couple hundred million in tax breaks for. Just commenting on the track recored here. :)







William

[bicycletricycle]

Boston is at close to 100% capacity already :)

They should go to someplace that could "really use" the jobs.

[Ken Robb]

I wonder if Detroit got into this contest. Way before the auto companies went bust it was a beautiful city with many recreation/arts opportunities. Since the crash many lovely homes are available at pennies on the dollar and there are areas of abandoned homes that could be rehabbed or bulldozed. In the latter case there would be lots of inexpensive now-vacant land where new housing could be built. While many people who lost jobs moved away I'll bet there are still quite a few locals who would make good employees.

[likebikes]

i can't imagine boston is seriously in the running. it's got high real estate prices, hardly any free land area to build a giant hq. (i think i heard it would be 2x the size of the pentagon)
also not a particularly cheap place to do business (high taxes). i also can't imagine the state/city giving them significant tax breaks to make it worthwhile as there are some cities seriously bending over backwards and then some to try to land amazon.

[sg8357]

I wonder if Detroit got into this contest.[snip]

Now there is a good idea, free land, nearly free homes if you are DIY type.

A deluxe version of "This Old House", "This Old City"
Lots of old giant fortress like plants to turn into data centers.

[OtayBW]

Baltimore threw in as well, but for the traffic where the want to place it, I can't see anyone getting anything delivered on time.....
I'm guessing Austin will get it as well....

[Bradford]

I wonder if Detroit got into this contest...

A friend of mine is a VP at Amazon. We spoke about this when it first came out and Detroit was his best guess, so at least some people there have considered it. I think it would be too hard to draw top talent to Detroit, so I would pick a more attractive place if it were me.

[texbike]

PLEASE, not Austin!

DFW seems like it would be the perfect place for it - lots of infrastructure, multiple local universities cranking out educated folks, LOTS of land for development, big business/development-friendly local government, affordable housing, close to a major IA, in the middle of the Country, great logistics capabilities, AND multiple major sports arenas for Amazon to sponsor.

Texbike

[soulspinner]

Rochester NY. Just because i live there.:p

[Ralph]

Our Florida Governor is always trying to give big incentives to get companies to move here.....always touting how it benefits our state. I haven't figured out how it benefits most of us.....but most of us pay for those incentives. You have to build roads, schools, medical facilities, etc, way in advance of any economic benefit. I'm not so sure most of those Amazon jobs will be "hi paying" either, whatever that means. And that makes the local burden even greater. Politicians just want to brag about these "wins" in their next run for election. I like Colorado's approach.

[Dude]

Maybe I'm biased but Philadelphia is always overlooked. Easy location to most other major cities on the east coast, lots of universities and lots of land that can be developed/repurposed.

My guess is Raleigh/durham area (cheaper land) still a good system of universities.

[FlashUNC]

Whichever city and state debases themselves enough.

[BobO]

We've got it locked up,... we sent them a cactus, who could say no to that? :rolleyes:

[1centaur]

Re: Boston - that race track is on a very busy commuting road which would be horrendous if an Amazon HQ were located there. Also, not a nice location for the workers.

I also think Raleigh/Durham would be a natural spot. Politics edging in Amazon's direction, really nice quality of life, lots of universities, very good road transportation, and an international airport that could become more so with new demand. Near Research Triangle. Not the best Internet infrastructure, but Google fiber is in Raleigh.

[Idris Icabod]

We've got it locked up,... we sent them a cactus, who could say no to that? :rolleyes:

I wish. They returned the cactus.

[Ken Robb]

I wish. They returned the cactus.
I guess you're stuck with it.

[MikeD]

I'd be surprised if California gets it. High taxes and cost of living, awful traffic, and a business unfriendly leftist government.

[Ken Robb]

I'd be surprised if California gets it. High taxes and cost of living, awful traffic, and a business unfriendly leftist government.

That's us!

[FlashUNC]

I'd be surprised if California gets it. High taxes and cost of living, awful traffic, and a business unfriendly leftist government.

So business unfriendly we're the sixth largest economy in the world, all by ourselves.

[MikeD]

So business unfriendly we're the sixth largest economy in the world, all by ourselves.


Climate, geography, ocean access, Silicon Valley, aerospace and defense industry, all in spite of the business unfriendly state government.

Oh, and I forgot the real estate industry driving the economy too, as if that helps the average citizen that has to rent or buy a home here.

[FlashUNC]

Climate, geography, ocean access, Silicon Valley, aerospace and defense industry, all in spite of the business unfriendly state government.

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0NwPZ027mabR6Tg4/giphy.gif

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Boston isn't saying "no tax breaks", they're just saying "show us what you're bringing to the table and then we'll talk about tax incentives ". Also, I think Suffolk Downs would be an awful site.


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[gasman]

I'd be surprised if California gets it. a business unfriendly leftist government.


OK guys lets keep politics out of it.

Thanks

[josephr]

It'll be east of the Mississippi for sure...even though my city (Birmingham) is in the running, I really hope we don't get it as I like Amazon too much and the last thing I want to see is a bunch of douchebag politicians puffing out their chests and talking about how great they are for woo-ing Amazon when in reality they've sold the house for free, threw in the children, and promised to mow the yard for eternity.

It'll be someplace with some regional centrality to it, access to interstates and rail, and somewhere technical poeple want to raise a family without getting obliterated by a hurricane every other year. Probably Richmond, VA or Northwest Indiana.

[bikinchris]

Someone told me today it would be Detroit. It would revive a once thriving city.

My personal sentimental wish would be Little Rock. Centrally located with a good quality of life.

[Doug Fattic]

I've heard it said that big companies know well in advance where they want their new business to be. They just use approaching other cities as negotiating leverage to get tax advantages where they wanted to be all along.

[likebikes]

Re: Boston - that race track is on a very busy commuting road which would be horrendous if an Amazon HQ were located there. Also, not a nice location for the workers.
freaking seriously.

do they seriously think the 50k amazon workers are going to take 1a or ride the blue line to work? ****ing LOL.

[bikinchris]

freaking seriously.

do they seriously think the 50k amazon workers are going to take 1a or ride the blue line to work? ****ing LOL.

No, they think the vast majority would live on the rather large site.

[Ken Robb]

No, they think the vast majority would live on the rather large site.

This always sounds good but it hasn't worked in San Diego. I was a real estate broker for 36 years and the hardest thing to get buyers to consider was the ease or difficulty of their commutes. When downtown San Diego started to get new high-rise condos and apartments it was expected that they would be occupied by people who worked downtown and wanted to be near work. At the same time we got new offices in the northern suburbs. Many of the downtown residents now live there to be near the Gas Lamp District with all its bars and restaurants but they work up north. Our rush hour used to be from the suburbs to downtown in the morning and from downtown to the suburbs in the evening. Now it is largely reversed with more traffic in the morning OUT of downtown. There is still a traffic increase TO downtown in the morning but its not as heavy as the northbound flow.

I'm retired so I just avoid driving weekdays 6-10am and 3:30-6:30pm and when I worked I lived 2-3 miles from my office. We are getting an extension of our Trolley System and there will be a station 2 blocks from my home. Needless to say quite a few of my neighbors were against this project especially those whose homes front the tracks. I think that's silly because the tracks will run alongside I-5 and I doubt anyone will hear the trolley over the steady hum/roar of the freeway. The new trolley line will enable us to get almost anywhere I would want to go while leaving my car in the garage.

[MattTuck]

It appears that Amazon has carefully studied the strategies that FIFA and the IOC use to decide where to host the games.

These cities are falling over each other.

As far as California's business climate, I don't know enough details to know for sure. I've heard a bunch of anecdotal information that there are some serious headwinds there. I've heard of atleast 3 companies that have moved to Texas from California because of taxes. And I've heard a number of stories that suggest Silicon valley is not a sustainable model, and some VCs are now considering it a strike against a company to be located there.

My general feeling on Amazon is that over the next 5 years or so, they (along with google and Facebook) may face a real threat of anti-trust action because of their size. As such, I don't know that the 50,000 new employees will ever be fully realized.

[likebikes]

No, they think the vast majority would live on the rather large site.

that's even more laughable than 50k employees commuting there. for those not familiar with boston, the proposed amazon site there is ringed by 2 scary roads (no shoulder, one divided road), adjacent to the airport, and constrained by the ocean on 2 sides. it's a weird bit of land that's been a dog track for the last 80 years.

[biker72]

I would think an east coast location would be the best. Whoever gets it will inherit a huge traffic problem.

Dallas/Ft. Worth has submitted a package deal to Amazon. Still lots of empty space available, no state income tax, international airport, and a skilled workforce.

Unfortunately housing has become more expensive in the last few years. Four years ago houses in my neighborhood were going for around $150K. Some are now asking close to $300K.

[saab2000]

It appears that Amazon has carefully studied the strategies that FIFA and the IOC use to decide where to host the games.



Can't speak to FIFA, but the IOC is rapidly finding out that most places have discovered that hosting the Olympic Games is terrible.

[54ny77]

in the race to get the hq prize, will there be doping involved? :bike:

[Ken Robb]

Unfortunately housing has become more expensive in the last few years. Four years ago houses in my neighborhood were going for around $150K. Some are now asking close to $300K.

$300,000 will get you a mediocre one-bedroom condo in San Diego. I'm not making this up. :eek:

[ntb1001]

Not much different in Toronto...maybe even worse.

I think the average detached house price is around 1million.



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[csm]

OK guys lets keep politics out of it.

Thanks



How can you take politics out of this? It's basically Amazon shaking down States and cities for incentives.

While the east coast would be a no-brainer, I think in the next 2-3 years Amazon will purchase a CLS/3rd party provider to gain control of the final mile delivery and LTL segment of their supply chain and delivery to the end user. That said, I think upper Midwest makes a ton of sense.


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[charliedid]

Chicago will get it.

[Monthly Payment]

I'm with the Philadelphia movement. Close to major east coast hubs.
Coming from a NYC guy, it pains me to say something nice about them, but they have good schools, arts, restaurants. All stuff a big influx of employees with $100k+ incomes want.

[xnetter]

I've heard it said that big companies know well in advance where they want their new business to be. They just use approaching other cities as negotiating leverage to get tax advantages where they wanted to be all along.

Exactly. And this is one of the most data-driven companies in the world - the decision was likely made long ago.

KJ

[oldpotatoe]

Chicago will get it.

Detroit...we need a pool..pick location and time it's announced...winner gets a paceline cap..

[45K10]

that's even more laughable than 50k employees commuting there. for those not familiar with boston, the proposed amazon site there is ringed by 2 scary roads (no shoulder, one divided road), adjacent to the airport, and constrained by the ocean on 2 sides. it's a weird bit of land that's been a dog track for the last 80 years.

Suffolk Downs is a horse track, Wonderland in Revere, which has also put a bid in, is the dog track. They are probably about 2 miles from each other. Either one would suck. It is already a traffic nightmare around both of them. Lynn also put a bid in which probably has the most space at the around the old GE factory which would go for pretty cheap. They'll even throw in the PCB's and jet fuel contaminated soil for free!

[Tickdoc]

Detroit...we need a pool..pick location and time it's announced...winner gets a paceline cap..

I'm down with Detroit. Makes sense in the grander scheme.

[54ny77]

I'll take a guess it ends up somewhere in one of the coastal (east or west) regions in FL. Favorable biz climate, no state income tax, lifestyle attraction for the workforce. Major companies have been moving backoffice operations in the Jacksonville and Tampa metro areas for the past several years.

[oldpotatoe]

I'll take a guess it ends up somewhere in one of the coastal (east or west) regions in FL. Favorable biz climate, no state income tax, lifestyle attraction for the workforce. Major companies have been moving backoffice operations in the Jacksonville and Tampa metro areas for the past several years.

Lotsa USAF and USN wives looking for jobs at those 2 places too:)

[marsh]

Detroit...we need a pool..pick location and time it's announced...winner gets a paceline cap..

I bet Chicago gets it, they will probably be given the land and pay no taxes.
https://www.illinoispolicy.org/illinois-prepared-to-give-2b-in-tax-breaks-incentives-to-amazon-for-hq2/

Rahm will tout it as a huge win, it will do nothing for the areas of Chicago that really need investment that the tax money could help provide.

[brownhound]

Should get? A struggling city where HQ2 would be transformative for the local economy, a boost to help establish it as relevant in the global economy. These places are big enough to soak up 50,000 families and have infrastructure that can serve a big company.

Examples: Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, St. Louis, Memphis, Buffalo, maybe even Philly.

Will get? A large city with the wind blowing at its back already. Companies move places where the CEO wants to live, and it'll be this way now, whether it makes local sense or not.

Examples: Denver, Austin, DFW, Minneapolis, Charlotte, Boston, maybe even Chicago.

[cmg]

Who's really paying those high salaries if the HQ2 is demanding tax incentives, free land with infrastructure, and school tax abatements? $8-10 million in incentives can really offset a lot of $100K salaries. Sorry go somewhere else, corporate welfare be damned.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Who's really paying those high salaries if the HQ2 is demanding tax incentives, free land with infrastructure, and school tax abatements? $8-10 million in incentives can really offset a lot of $100K salaries. Sorry go somewhere else, corporate welfare be damned.

Yep. When fifty thousand jobs come to a city the economic impact ends with their salaries and the (income, sales and property) taxes that company does or does not pay. Offering incentives to a company to locate to your city based on detailed economic models with varied scenarios, you know. . . a long view approach. . . is dumb. Totally with you on that.

[Mikej]

Lotsa USAF and USN wives looking for jobs at those 2 places too:)

Most military is transient, I don't think AMAZON wants to retrain constantly.

I'd vote South East WI, but we are in talks to shell out 3.5 billion to FOXCONN to make apple phone screens....for 3500 jobs, but maybe, JUST MAYBE, we can expand, for another n+ $$$$

[MattTuck]

Should get? A struggling city where HQ2 would be transformative for the local economy, a boost to help establish it as relevant in the global economy. These places are big enough to soak up 50,000 families and have infrastructure that can serve a big company.

Examples: Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, St. Louis, Memphis, Buffalo, maybe even Philly.

Will get? A large city with the wind blowing at its back already. Companies move places where the CEO wants to live, and it'll be this way now, whether it makes local sense or not.

Examples: Denver, Austin, DFW, Minneapolis, Charlotte, Boston, maybe even Chicago.

Perhaps the idea of a city "with the wind blowing at its back already" is a city with a well educated population that has made good investments and had good policies in the past. Getting a big employer like this is not a panacea. If struggling cities want to emerge as resilient and relevant players in the world of tomorrow, their time would be better spent on policies that shape the city into places that people want to live and do business -- not on winning a highly speculative beauty contest to hook Amazon.

Historically, there were obviously some cities that were simply endowed with better natural benefits than others. I'm thinking of some of the mill towns near rivers that could be harnessed for power back in the 1800's. Seaports, river access, quarries or other sources of natural resources, etc. that made commerce easier. Today, the most valuable asset most high growth companies have are the ones that leave at the end of the day. You can have adequate infrastructure (roads, airport, public transit, etc.) but the main differentiation today is innovation and talent, and that is nearly 100% people. So if you don't have a ready supply of high talent people, or can't get people to come and live somewhere, you're not going to locate important functions there.

[charliedid]

Detroit...we need a pool..pick location and time it's announced...winner gets a paceline cap..

Maybe

However I don't know if Detroit needs another Company to own the town again.

Chicago is aggressive, has the infrastructure, the Universities, the population, the housing and the (good, bad or otherwise) willingness to do what it takes in terms of the "offer" and incentives.

It would be a great thing for Chicago IMO and it would just add to a dynamic, albeit somewhat struggling city and state but not reinvent it and be it's new identity. I think that is important.

Send me my cap ;-)

[PepeM]

I'll just drop a few things here:

https://www.goodjobsfirst.org/news/amazons-hq2-and-rise-big-ticket-megadeals

http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/sites/default/files/docs/pdf/amazon-subsidies.pdf

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/amazon-facebook-google-conservative-anti-monopoly-movement/

Have a good day.

[brownhound]

Perhaps the idea of a city "with the wind blowing at its back already" is a city with a well educated population that has made good investments and had good policies in the past. Getting a big employer like this is not a panacea. If struggling cities want to emerge as resilient and relevant players in the world of tomorrow, their time would be better spent on policies that shape the city into places that people want to live and do business -- not on winning a highly speculative beauty contest to hook Amazon.

Historically, there were obviously some cities that were simply endowed with better natural benefits than others. I'm thinking of some of the mill towns near rivers that could be harnessed for power back in the 1800's. Seaports, river access, quarries or other sources of natural resources, etc. that made commerce easier. Today, the most valuable asset most high growth companies have are the ones that leave at the end of the day. You can have adequate infrastructure (roads, airport, public transit, etc.) but the main differentiation today is innovation and talent, and that is nearly 100% people. So if you don't have a ready supply of high talent people, or can't get people to come and live somewhere, you're not going to locate important functions there.

I mostly disagree that the current winners are a result of policy. I do agree that the current winners are places where places employees want to live (which is what I figured you meant by "leave at the end of the day"). Rapidly growing places like Portland or Seattle or Denver or Austin have the accident of geography, just like 19th century growth helped places like Cincinnati.

Whatever "smart" policy someplace like Cleveland would take, it isn't going to replicate Nashville or whatever winner you want to point to. It can't overcome the natural trends. And I agree that Amazon will select some place where people want to "come and live", which is why it'll be somewhere already popular and growing. It would take a lot of guts to choose Detroit, and I don't think Amazon has that kind of guts. Almost no company does.

[Mikej]

So, what if current employers in the "golden choices" areas, Austin, Chicago, etc. lobby politicians for no because it could cause people to jump ship or cause higher demand therefore higher wages?

[brownhound]

^^^
Yes, what if?

NIMBYism could extend to a corporate HQ with well compensated, white-collar workers too. I could see someplace small like Boulder doing it, but it's hard to imagine in a larger city turning away (or declining to participate in) Amazon. Economic development is one of the primary goals of local government.

Do you really want to be, say, the Governor when Amazon says they chose to send 50,000 jobs elsewhere because the Governor isn't "open for business"?

[charliedid]

I mostly disagree that the current winners are a result of policy. I do agree that the current winners are places where places employees want to live (which is what I figured you meant by "leave at the end of the day"). Rapidly growing places like Portland or Seattle or Denver or Austin have the accident of geography, just like 19th century growth helped places like Cincinnati.

Whatever "smart" policy someplace like Cleveland would take, it isn't going to replicate Nashville or whatever winner you want to point to. It can't overcome the natural trends. And I agree that Amazon will select some place where people want to "come and live", which is why it'll be somewhere already popular and growing. It would take a lot of guts to choose Detroit, and I don't think Amazon has that kind of guts. Almost no company does.

You make a good point, and the geography (lifestyle) part is where Chicago will never stand up to Denver or Portland or other cities where that is an ideal/accidental feature and or benefit.

That said, Chicago is a hard working town and Amazon is a hard working Co. and the friends I know who work for them talk about the culture being work centric and not nearly as relaxed as some other employers who tout the life/work balance as key to their culture. I think that is changing a little but...

[charliedid]

So, what if current employers in the "golden choices" areas, Austin, Chicago, etc. lobby politicians for no because it could cause people to jump ship or cause higher demand therefore higher wages?

Yes please!

[Kirk007]

Jeff Bezos has been in Seattle since the beginning and what Seattle is, then and now I think will have to translate into the decision. How many Corp. Execs in Seattle would be enthused to relocate to Detroit - I'm guessing zero absent a huge $$ increase. So my bet is a community that offers lifestyle amenities like Seattle.

On the other hand, and the fear of some up here: Seattle's local government has been taken over by decidedly business unfriendly trends that smack of inexperienced idealistic foolishness that combined with an inability to deal with real world problems, like infrastructure, traffic will make this a move of the Amazon center of the universe elsewhere. Now our socialist trending city council members and many self entitled residents who seem to think the world owes them, and that it is the job of business and anyone who has worked their asses off to accumulate even a modicum of assets, to fork it over. It's like a scene from history with youngsters running around the streets with "tax the rich" placards. No pitchforks as they wouldn't have a clue what a pitchfork is for. This sentiment, which is very anti-amazon, google etc., could be a big part of Amazon's thinking and that could drive them to a place that was more business friendly even it it lacked some amenities.

p.s. This is not the rant of a lifelong fiscal, social conservative. I run a conservation ngo and have been on the left side of the spectrum all my life, but things have jumped the shark in this town, so much so I just left for Kitsap County.

[MattTuck]

I mostly disagree that the current winners are a result of policy. I do agree that the current winners are places where places employees want to live (which is what I figured you meant by "leave at the end of the day"). Rapidly growing places like Portland or Seattle or Denver or Austin have the accident of geography, just like 19th century growth helped places like Cincinnati.

My point was, if a city does not have those natural advantages (accident of geography) of good climate, good work force, good quality of life, ample opportunities, good connection with schools, network effects, etc., the only levers remaining are those of policy choices.

I'd argue that the leaders of such cities/regions/states should focus on policies and investments that have general broad appeal to businesses and increase the probability that ANY company operating there is successful. That is hard policy work, that takes years and years to make a big impact. Trying to win the amazon contract is a short cut to big job growth, but if you don't have the accompanying general policies to benefit all high growth companies equally across the board, why would any other company locate there without exacting similar tax incentives to what Amazon got.

[brownhound]

So my bet is a community that offers lifestyle amenities like Seattle.

On the other hand, and the fear of some up here: Seattle's local government has been taken over by decidedly business unfriendly trends that smack of inexperienced idealistic foolishness that combined with an inability to deal with real world problems, like infrastructure, traffic will make this a move of the Amazon center of the universe elsewhere...This sentiment, which is very anti-amazon, google etc., could be a big part of Amazon's thinking and that could drive them to a place that was more business friendly even it it lacked some amenities.

I think you've got the right idea - a balance of Seattle amenities (and culture, to some extent) and business-friendly policies. The places with the former generally don't have the latter and vice versa.

Maybe Utah or Denver? If in the Midwest or East, then perhaps a Nashville? Or Austin?

Most of the currently successful business-friendly locations aren't exactly brimming with Seattle amenities: Houston, Atlanta, etc.

[Mikej]

OR, is this A2 all just a ploy to get Seattle and Washington to realize this guy is serious, so we better start forking over incentives?

[brownhound]

I'd argue that the leaders of such cities/regions/states should focus on policies and investments that have general broad appeal to businesses and increase the probability that ANY company operating there is successful. That is hard policy work, that takes years and years to make a big impact. Trying to win the amazon contract is a short cut to big job growth, but if you don't have the accompanying general policies to benefit all high growth companies equally across the board, why would any other company locate there without exacting similar tax incentives to what Amazon got.

Don't all of them try? Every city, metro area and State has an economic development department. Of course, each company has different needs, so it's hard to know what will be successful. For example, lax environmental policies and aggressive anti-union activities will be favored by some (manufacturers), but to an Amazon or similar it's anathema.

[FlashUNC]

Yep. When fifty thousand jobs come to a city the economic impact ends with their salaries and the (income, sales and property) taxes that company does or does not pay. Offering incentives to a company to locate to your city based on detailed economic models with varied scenarios, you know. . . a long view approach. . . is dumb. Totally with you on that.

Except the research indicates these kinds of incentive races to the bottom in smokestack chasing don't often make back the incentives given, and ignore the policy choice of trying to encourage and develop local businesses which really make up the vast bulk of any regions jobs.

Its not like Amazon needs the tax abatement after all. And all the cities folks are naming here are ones that already have healthy, diverse economies with notable local companies as stable employers and a local base of talent to pull from.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/state-budget-and-tax/state-job-creation-strategies-often-off-base

[benb]

You can't incentivize yourself to having a small army of software developers... all the other stuff can be solved with money.

IMO it's going to be Boston or Austin or someplace that is already overflowing with engineers. There's good stuff going on all over the the place but Silicon Valley, Boston, Seattle, Austin, RTP, NYC are the biggest areas. Then you gotta factor in whether the area already has enough other jobs that the engineers aren't going to want to quit and work at Amazon. Amazon does NOT have a good reputation in the industry, and it's a giant company, so the perceived upside is not as big as working at a smaller (probably private) company. In reality working a place like Amazon is probably a better bet in terms of stock, etc.. but the maximum upside is lower and Amazon backloads vesting and does some other stuff that people feel is unsavory.

Amazon has been trying to recruit me for jobs in Seattle for 10+ years. I did interview when they opened their Boston office for Boston positions but didn't get an offer... it was also one of those processes (like when I interviewed at Google) that made me think I didn't want to work there anyway. Big giant company, weird cult feeling, strange/obnoxious interview process, office location inconvenient for my lifestyle. (Having a family, wanting to be a cyclist, etc..) Google has left me alone ever since then (I think I actually requested that they leave me alone) but Amazon sends a recruiter my way once a month. One of the big things that makes these companies obnoxious as F is they don't actually let you know what you're interviewing for unless you're some kind of celebrity developer that they want to keep working on your celebrity thing or they're buying your startup and want you to keep working on that.

[ORMojo]

we need a pool..pick location and time it's announced...winner gets a paceline cap..

Gonna be a big pool, they received 238 proposals.

"Amazon did not list which cities or metro areas applied, but said the proposals came from 43 U.S. states, as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico, three Mexican states and six Canadian provinces. In a tweet, the company said it was 'excited to review each of them.'

The seven U.S. states that Amazon said did not apply were: Arkansas, Hawaii, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Vermont and Wyoming."

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Gonna be a big pool, they received 238 proposals.

"Amazon did not list which cities or metro areas applied, but said the proposals came from 43 U.S. states, as well as Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico, three Mexican states and six Canadian provinces. In a tweet, the company said it was 'excited to review each of them.'

The seven U.S. states that Amazon said did not apply were: Arkansas, Hawaii, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Vermont and Wyoming."

And the next step in the selection isn't happening for a long time (mid-2018, as I understand it). Something like this doesn't move fast.

[unterhausen]

that's an interesting list of the 7 states.

[Idris Icabod]

Down to the round of 20:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42727017

"Toronto was the only non-US city to make it to the list.

The others are Atlanta, Georgia; Austin, Texas; Boston, Massachusetts; Chicago, Illinois; Columbus, Ohio; Dallas, Texas; Denver, Colorado; Indianapolis, Indiana; Los Angeles, California; Miami, Florida; Montgomery County, Maryland; Nashville, Tennessee; Newark, New Jersey; New York City; Northern Virginia; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; Raleigh, North Carolina; and Washington DC."

[texbike]

Down to the round of 20:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42727017

"Toronto was the only non-US city to make it to the list.

The others are Atlanta, Georgia; Austin, Texas; Boston, Massachusetts; Chicago, Illinois; Columbus, Ohio; Dallas, Texas; Denver, Colorado; Indianapolis, Indiana; Los Angeles, California; Miami, Florida; Montgomery County, Maryland; Nashville, Tennessee; Newark, New Jersey; New York City; Northern Virginia; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; Raleigh, North Carolina; and Washington DC."

Both Dallas and Austin made the list. I personally think that Dallas would be the perfect spot and feel that it'll be one of the final contenders if not the ultimate choice. However, I wonder if the HQ for Whole Foods being in Austin would influence the decision our way?

Denver would be interesting, but not far enough East?

Texbike

[AngryScientist]

Both Dallas and Austin made the list. I personally think that Dallas would be the perfect spot and feel that it'll be one of the final contenders if not the ultimate choice. However, I wonder if the HQ for Whole Foods being in Austin would influence the decision our way?

Denver would be interesting, but not far enough East?

Texbike

Dallas's heyday is passed. Everyones moving to Plano.

edit: why do you say Dallas is the perfect spot tex?

[oldpotatoe]

Both Dallas and Austin made the list. I personally think that Dallas would be the perfect spot and feel that it'll be one of the final contenders if not the ultimate choice. However, I wonder if the HQ for Whole Foods being in Austin would influence the decision our way?

Denver would be interesting, but not far enough East?

Texbike

They sure don't seem to place it somewhere where it would help the area, like Detroit or New Orleans..Not Denver, take a drive thru the mousttrap any day of the week and that'll show ya Denver is a bad idea..unless it's way out by DIA...

[fignon's barber]

Down to the round of 20:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42727017

"Toronto was the only non-US city to make it to the list.

The others are Atlanta, Georgia; Austin, Texas; Boston, Massachusetts; Chicago, Illinois; Columbus, Ohio; Dallas, Texas; Denver, Colorado; Indianapolis, Indiana; Los Angeles, California; Miami, Florida; Montgomery County, Maryland; Nashville, Tennessee; Newark, New Jersey; New York City; Northern Virginia; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania; Raleigh, North Carolina; and Washington DC."



Predictably strategic list. Of the 20 there are probably around 4 real considerations, while the rest are somewhat desperate municipalities willing to leverage everything and therefore jacking up the bidding for the contenders.

[echelon_john]

The fact that DC, NOVA and Montgomery County, MD are all on the list, to me, shows there is strong interest in that neck of the woods. East coast, proximity to federal government.

Don't forget that the retail side of Amazon is only a portion of their business. Their cloud offerings are HUUUGE and growing. So the needs for HQ2 are very different from how we think of Amazon a lot, i.e. distribution centers, logistics, etc.





Predictably strategic list. Of the 20 there are probably around 4 real considerations, while the rest are somewhat desperate municipalities willing to leverage everything and therefore jacking up the bidding for the contenders.

[d_douglas]

I haven't read this thread at all, but I was listening to the local news this AM and heard that my own city lost out on the bid for the HQ (I knew that they had bid on this). It was 99% unlikely to happen, but they had put forth a business case that they believed would work, so kudos to them for thinking big.

Personally I am super happy, as Victoria (sp Langford) is a small town and something like this would've utterly transformed the city for the worse. I am also looking to buy a house for the first time and having 1000's of new people move here would've driven the real estate costs further through the roof from where it is now :).

Thanks for shutting us down, Amazon !!

[Davist]

hope they don't choose Philadelphia... I like it here. :)

NoVA is the largest data center / cloud location in the world, Dallas is 2nd for US business currently. If the play is for AWS, then these would bubble up I'm guessing.

[texbike]

Dallas's heyday is passed. Everyones moving to Plano.

edit: why do you say Dallas is the perfect spot tex?

To clarify, when I say "Dallas", I really mean the entire metroplex. As for Dallas's heyday passing, that could be somewhat debatable, but let's save that for another day/conversation.

My reason for thinking that the Dallas Metroplex would be the perfect candidate is for multiple reasons (not listed in any particular order) - large concentration of datacenters and IT infrastructure, transportation infrastructure, electrical grid infrastructure, cost of living/cost of housing, cost of utilities, geographic location in the middle of the country, moderated climate (hah!), increasing investment in public transportation, proximity to a major international airport, sheer number of educational institutions located in the area, diverse/stable economy, and a HUGE educated, and yet affordable workforce. This isn't taking any local or state economic and tax incentives into consideration - just the merits of the area itself from a large employer perspective.

The area has been blowing up the last few years (as have most major Cities in Texas) for many of these same reasons.

Texbike

[fiamme red]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/05/technology/amazon-second-headquarters-split.html

The company is nearing a deal to move to the Long Island City neighborhood of Queens, according to two of the people briefed on the discussions. Amazon is also close to a deal to move to the Crystal City area of Arlington, Va., a Washington suburb, one of the people said. Amazon already has more employees in those two areas than anywhere else outside of Seattle, its home base, and the Bay Area.

Amazon executives met two weeks ago with Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo in the governor’s Manhattan office, said one of the people briefed on the process, adding that the state had offered potentially hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidies. Long Island City is a short subway ride across the East River from Midtown Manhattan.

“I am doing everything I can,” Governor Cuomo told reporters when asked Monday about the state’s efforts to lure the company. “We have a great incentive package,” he said.

“I’ll change my name to Amazon Cuomo if that’s what it takes,” Governor Cuomo said. “Because it would be a great economic boost.”Hooray! Hundreds of millions of dollars in incentives have brought Amazon HQ to NYC! :help:

[pbarry]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/05/technology/amazon-second-headquarters-split.html

Hooray! Hundreds of millions of dollars in incentives have brought Amazon HQ to NYC! :help:

There goes the neighborhood. Hope they have budgeted more than $15/hr for the new warehouse employees.

[joosttx]

Dallas's heyday is passed. Everyones moving to Plano.

edit: why do you say Dallas is the perfect spot tex?

Highland Park Real Estate would prove otherwise.

[rwsaunders]

Looks like they're going to spilt HQ2 between Queens (NYC) and NoVA (Crystal City). Hard to fight city hall when they're (Cuomo) throwing a couple of hundred million in incentives at you and in the case of NoVA, they just need to deal with one landowner in order to get things moving.

https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/amazon-cuomo-governor-offers-name-change-land-new-hq

https://patch.com/virginia/arlington-va/amazon-crystal-city-advanced-discussions-hq2

[gemship]

Boston is at close to 100% capacity already :)

They should go to someplace that could "really use" the jobs.

A big Amen to that. I live roughly 35 miles north of Boston and honestly it's a place to avoid driving into I95 and I93 get constantly backed up and parking is limited. In fact nobody enjoys driving to Boston from where I live. Absolutely they should go somewhere that can use the jobs.

[fiamme red]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/07/technology/amazon-hq2-know.html

"Much of the process has been secret, and Amazon had local officials and real estate developers sign nondisclosure agreements during negotiations."

Our great plutocracy at work... :crap:

[echappist]

hope they don't choose Philadelphia... I like it here. :)

NoVA is the largest data center / cloud location in the world, Dallas is 2nd for US business currently. If the play is for AWS, then these would bubble up I'm guessing.
agreed

I like it here in Philly and can afford to live in even some of the fancier towns. Not sure i could do the same if Amazon were to move in
Looks like they're going to spilt HQ2 between Queens (NYC) and NoVA (Crystal City). Hard to fight city hall when they're (Cuomo) throwing a couple of hundred million in incentives at you and in the case of NoVA, they just need to deal with one landowner in order to get things moving.

https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/amazon-cuomo-governor-offers-name-change-land-new-hq

https://patch.com/virginia/arlington-va/amazon-crystal-city-advanced-discussions-hq2

the Crystal City decision is baffling and a nightmare. At least it could be argued that there's land to be reclaimed in Queens (e.g. Flushing Meadows or along one of the canals) for new sites.

Crystal City is literally less than 0.5 square miles. Its dimensions is (generously) 1 mile long by 0.4 mile wide. Traffic in that area is already an unmitigated nightmare, and now they want to add more to that area? I don't even know if they could fit 5000 people into Crystal City without some significant renovations...

The only people benefiting are the existing land owners in the area. I once rented a studio for ~1300/month in Pentagon City. If Amazon were to move in, i'd figure the place would now rent for ~1800.

The area also has quite a few feds, who can manage to make things work right now. Those who don't currently own will pretty soon find their salaries to be insufficient, thanks to Amazon moving in. It'd be an unmitigated disaster. And to think, they can have all the space they need if they build near IAD, and have access to an international airport, to boot...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/07/technology/amazon-hq2-know.html

"Much of the process has been secret, and Amazon had local officials and real estate developers sign nondisclosure agreements during negotiations."

Our great plutocracy at work... :crap:

amen to that

the thing is released just after the election, so nothing could be done about it, as it'd be fait accompali. Better yet, it gets buried in the news cycle.

[johnniecakes]

Anyplace that is not within 100 miles of my home.

[cmg]

The company said it would invest more than $5 billion over almost two decades in a second headquarters, hiring as many as 50,000 full-time employees that would earn more than $100,000 a year on average.

Do any of the current Amazon locations have 50,000 full time employees making $100k or more now? No, I didn't think so. if so they'll need that amount as an incentive from the area they'll build in.

[rnhood]

I'm sure Cuomo is coming up with billions in incentives, in addition to selling his own soul.

I'm just delighted Raleigh will not get them. Color me happy.

[Ozz]

Hindsight is 20/20....

Bezos is from New York, so planting HQ2 there makes sense....

Putting an HQ2(3) in DC makes sense for his lobbying / political needs....

As far as impact...here are some before and after shots of South Lake Union area of Seattle...roughly 2000 vs 2017

[jlwdm]

The company said it would invest more than $5 billion over almost two decades in a second headquarters, hiring as many as 50,000 full-time employees that would earn more than $100,000 a year on average.

Do any of the current Amazon locations have 50,000 full time employees making $100k or more now? No, I didn't think so. if so they'll need that amount as an incentive from the area they'll build in.

Seattle. $100,000 a year on average.

Jeff

[bikinchris]

The company said it would invest more than $5 billion over almost two decades in a second headquarters, hiring as many as 50,000 full-time employees that would earn more than $100,000 a year on average.

Do any of the current Amazon locations have 50,000 full time employees making $100k or more now? No, I didn't think so. if so they'll need that amount as an incentive from the area they'll build in.

Amazon has a bunch of employees working in their warehouses who live in tents, because they don't make enough to live.

[coreyaugustus]

100k/yr... Yep. They're gonna need it in Crystal City.
Where's that "rent is too d@mn high" guy when you need him?

[echappist]

well, effing A, it's now official

i hope they stall the s*** out of it. Loudon County, sure, why not. But Crystal City? Last Friday they had a nightmare at DCA, as the metro shut down. People were dragging their luggage to the airport from Crystal City due to the traffic gridlock created by the shut down. Place needs serious infrastructure work first before it can host anything...

And this doesn't even mention how much they extracted from the VA and Arlington governments. Hilarious how certain people who lean left think this is actually beneficial b/c of some virtue signalling by Bezos. Complete bananas. I have yet to hear of anything beneficial to come out of these new-breed tech entrepreneurs (Bill Gates aside)...

Once upon a time, I thought about returning to my own HQ (which is located in the area); well not anymore... The ~$100k i've saved up for a down pay already doesn't mean jack in the DC area; now it will mean even less...

[unterhausen]

seems to me that these two locations don't really fit their stated desires for infrastructure. The areas just beyond the reach of the Metro really don't want it extended because they are convinced that gangs will come and steal their $700 flat screen tv and take it back to inner city DC on the metro. "Where'd you get that TV sir?" "yard sale, got a really good deal". I guess gang clubhouses need a lot of TV's because they can't agree on what to watch. And NOVA is growing like crazy anyway. I navigated my way by bike from the C&O to Leesburg, and roads that were obviously low-traffic not that long ago now feature 30 minute waits at traffic lights. These new workers are going to be commuting from West Virginia, Maryland, or somewhere near Richmond. Apparently, it's difficult for some highly-paid people to predict what most of us see as the obvious results of adding a job center to a location. There will be a multiplier effect that is going to be much bigger than just the jobs they add.

Bike riding in a fairly wide radius around DC really stinks anyway, this might be the end of road riding.

[dbnm]

Amazon had the opportunity to really turn another small city into a major destination and instead chose places with really high costs of living and housing issues.

[fiamme red]

The Atlantic: Amazon’s HQ2 Spectacle Isn’t Just Shameful — It Should Be Illegal (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/amazons-hq2-spectacle-should-be-illegal/575539/)

Every year, American cities and states spend up to $90 billion in tax breaks and cash grants to urge companies to move among states. That’s more than the federal government spends on housing, education, or infrastructure. And since cities and states can’t print money or run steep deficits, these deals take scarce resources from everything local governments would otherwise pay for, such as schools, roads, police, and prisons...

[benb]

Yep, usually the politicians get fleeced to the moon on these tax break deals.

It works out well for you if you work at the company on the receiving end of the windfall though.

The tax breaks for sports stadiums for billionaire owners drive me nuts a lot more than something like Amazon though.. Amazon will be employing an order of magnitude more people in better jobs. The billionaire sports franchise owner hires a bunch of temp people to hand out hot dogs and beer for nothing.. and doesn't even create full time jobs.

[zap]

NoVA was at the top of my list.....never mind the incompetence of DC area metro. Heard about the latest metro mess when we were up there this past weekend.

Crystal City makes sense..........it's a long walk to DCA :banana:

NY is a surprise.

[echappist]

The Atlantic: Amazon’s HQ2 Spectacle Isn’t Just Shameful — It Should Be Illegal (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/amazons-hq2-spectacle-should-be-illegal/575539/)
correct, but sigh...

each city/state trying to outdo one another in giving away things

Yep, usually the politicians get fleeced to the moon on these tax break deals.

It works out well for you if you work at the company on the receiving end of the windfall though.

The tax breaks for sports stadiums for billionaire owners drive me nuts a lot more than something like Amazon though.. Amazon will be employing an order of magnitude more people in better jobs. The billionaire sports franchise owner hires a bunch of temp people to hand out hot dogs and beer for nothing.. and doesn't even create full time jobs.
i think it's the populace that gets fleeced. the politicians (and people negotiating) probably end up with sweetheart deals after their term's over, so they can lobby on the company's behalf...

agreed on the stadia though...

[benb]

Yes for sure the politician "retires" to a nice cushy job after they leave office.

Megacorp always has open reqs for "Vice President of Graft".

[fiamme red]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/13/nyregion/amazon-long-island-city.html

“Amazon will receive performance-based direct incentives of $1.525 billion based on the company creating 25,000 jobs in Long Island City,” the company wrote in a blog post formally announcing the deal, most of which come from a state tax credit. “Amazon will receive these incentives over the next decade based on the incremental jobs it creates each year.”

The state also offered a capital grant to the company that could total as much as $500 million that Amazon can use to build new offices.:help: :no: :crap: :mad:

[echappist]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/13/nyregion/amazon-long-island-city.html

:help: :no: :crap: :mad:

i guess the silver lining is that it's not as much as what either MD or NJ was proposing to give away. At least MD could have afforded it, but NJ definitely couldnt have...

[Jaybee]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/13/nyregion/amazon-long-island-city.html

:help: :no: :crap: :mad:

Sweet. Only $65k/new job. :rolleyes:

[unterhausen]

Amazon had the opportunity to really turn another small city into a major destination and instead chose places with really high costs of living and housing issues.

This is a good point. They wanted a nice place to live right off the bat, but in the right environment any city could become that. OTOH, they could have ruined a nice small city like has been done to Austin.

[54ny77]

It's pretty bonkers how much they're extracting from the state. GE couldn't get it from 'em.

That's a staggering # of "knowledge workers" coming into one place over the course of a year or two once HQ is completed. RE agencies are surely salivating, as are merchants, businesses, etc.

[echappist]

so apparently $1.7B paid by NYC and NY State; some $500M paid by VA state and Arlington. All things considered, at least it's not as ridiculous as the 5-7 billion offered by places like Maryland and NJ.

But still, ridiculous. I get it re: promising infrastructure upgrades, but actual tax breaks, etc. ugh...

[fiamme red]

so apparently $1.7B paid by NYC and NY State; some $500M paid by VA state and Arlington.And as a small detail, a helipad for Bezos. :rolleyes:

https://slate.com/business/2018/11/amazons-new-york-hq2-helipad-jeff-bezos.html

[likebikes]

bezos for mayor and/or governor!

[jtbadge]

so apparently $1.7B paid by NYC and NY State; some $500M paid by VA state and Arlington. All things considered, at least it's not as ridiculous as the 5-7 billion offered by places like Maryland and NJ.

But still, ridiculous. I get it re: promising infrastructure upgrades, but actual tax breaks, etc. ugh...

This is almost worse than the ridiculous, blackmailing smash and grabs that sports franchises pull every year. Almost.

[echappist]

indeed; corporate welfare at its finest

[Black Dog]

indeed; corporate welfare at its finest

Indeed; it rivals the welfare doled out for sport stadiums.

[bikinchris]

If you actually check into it, the tax "incentives" and breaks on a national level are frankly a large part of budgets.
And on a federal level, the tax breaks given to corporations aren't even figured into the budget. So we have a hard time really getting those figures. Major, very profitable corporations like Exxon get billions in tax breaks on all governmental levels. It was disclosed that Exxon has gotten $2 billion just in Baton Rouge recently.

[parris]

I'm just sickened by this s**t. As someone that's lived in upstate NY my entire life and seeing the way the state has lost jobs and more importantly people and the talent that they take with them the amount that's being thrown at the company is just shattering.

[fiamme red]

If you actually check into it, the tax "incentives" and breaks on the federal level are a frankly large part of the federal budget.Speaking of the federal budget:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/may/03/bernie-s/amazon-paid-0-federal-income-taxes-2017/

Amazon’s 2017 tax return is not public, and a company spokesman did not return our request for comment. So to find the answer, experts told us to look at the company’s annual filings to the Securities and Exchange Commission. The company could face stiff penalties from the SEC for misleading reports.

In its annual report filed to the SEC in February 2018, Amazon estimated that not only would the company not be paying anything in 2017 federal income taxes, but it would be getting a $137 million tax refund...:help:

[echappist]

Indeed; it rivals the welfare doled out for sport stadiums.

are you guys at least a bit more fortunate than those of us living south of the border?

what has always struck me as amusing is that in America, welfare for corporations (and especially sport teams) is promoted, while welfare for the needy is deemed unnecessary (or worse, as being infantilizing)...

In contrast, there's greater (though declining) social welfare in the GB, but little welfare for sport teams. Not only do most have to pay their own way for stadia, there's actual promotion/relegation, quite a survival of the fittest...

sometimes I really wish I were Canadian. Actually had the opportunity to become a Canadian citizen but passed on it...

[fa63]

This might be a good time for the saying: "don't hate the player, hate the game" :-)

As long as loopholes exist, accountants/lawyers will continue finding them.

Speaking of the federal budget:

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/may/03/bernie-s/amazon-paid-0-federal-income-taxes-2017/

:help:

[oldpotatoe]

so apparently $1.7B paid by NYC and NY State; some $500M paid by VA state and Arlington. All things considered, at least it's not as ridiculous as the 5-7 billion offered by places like Maryland and NJ.

But still, ridiculous. I get it re: promising infrastructure upgrades, but actual tax breaks, etc. ugh...

According to data from Thomson Reuters, the consensus target price for Amazon's stock is about $2,100 -- up 9.5% from where the stock is now, giving Amazon a $1.02 trillion valuation.

Bezos one smart cookie..not only big $ incentives to the most valuable company on the planet but invaluable info about each of these potential markets that threw tons of info their way..which I'm SURE goes into some sort of logarithum...gotta make the donald cringe..:eek:

[rwsaunders]

bezos for mayor and/or governor!

Perhaps even President or Grand Poobah too...

[Mark McM]

This might be a good time for the saying: "don't hate the player, hate the game" :-)

As long as loopholes exist, accountants/lawyers will continue finding them.

Most loopholes exist on purpose. So as long as corporations keep funding politicians, politicians will continue including loopholes in legislation. (Also of note is that many times proposed bills are actually written by corporations.)

[echappist]

Most loopholes exist on purpose. So as long as corporations keep funding politicians, politicians will continue including loopholes in legislation. (Also of note is that many times proposed bills are actually written by corporations.)

exactly this. ain't a fair fight if the player wrote the rules of the game...

[fa63]

Good points.

Most loopholes exist on purpose. So as long as corporations keep funding politicians, politicians will continue including loopholes in legislation. (Also of note is that many times proposed bills are actually written by corporations.)

exactly this. ain't a fair fight if the player wrote the rules of the game...

[Black Dog]

are you guys at least a bit more fortunate than those of us living south of the border?

what has always struck me as amusing is that in America, welfare for corporations (and especially sport teams) is promoted, while welfare for the needy is deemed unnecessary (or worse, as being infantilizing)...

In contrast, there's greater (though declining) social welfare in the GB, but little welfare for sport teams. Not only do most have to pay their own way for stadia, there's actual promotion/relegation, quite a survival of the fittest...

sometimes I really wish I were Canadian. Actually had the opportunity to become a Canadian citizen but passed on it...

We have had similar fiascos for sports stadia but nothing at the level of what goes on south of our border. We do however, happily give out corporate welfare to very profitable companies all the time. Our federal government just wrote off over $1 billion in loans to Chrysler that were never repaid after the 2008 crash, even tough the company has been making money every year since. We also give away tax dollars to gas an oil companies that make money etc.... Corporate welfare sucks...it is truly taking from the poor and giving to the rich.

[Mikej]

Amazon is our own monster, it our fault.

[fiamme red]

Bezos one smart cookie..not only big $ incentives to the most valuable company on the planet but invaluable info about each of these potential markets that threw tons of info their way..which I'm SURE goes into some sort of logarithum...That's a good point.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/14/tech/amazon-hq2-search-data/index.html

Amazon's search for a second headquarters was never just about finding a new home.

Throughout the process, Amazon skillfully obtained data from 238 cities and metro areas in North America for free, including proprietary information about real estate sites under development, details about their talent pool, local labor cost and what incentives cities and states were willing to cough up to bring the company to town.

"Amazon was not going through this exercise to pick a single HQ2," said Richard Florida, a leading urbanist and professor at the University of Toronto. "It was part of a broader effort -- a corporate relocation strategy -- to crowdsource a wide variety of data."

[fiamme red]

Now JPMorgan Chase is sure to want their share of public funding.

https://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20180227/FINANCE/180229893/dimon-says-jpmorgan-chase-will-seek-same-incentives-as-amazon (February 26, 2018)

Wherever Jeff Bezos goes, Jamie Dimon is sure to follow.

Once Amazon decides where to locate its second headquarters, the JPMorgan Chase CEO said he will lobby that state’s leadership for the same tax breaks and incentives offered to the giant retailer.

“The second they give benefits to those people, you can damn well be sure I’m going to be calling the governor up,” Dimon said at an investor meeting Tuesday. “I’m not kidding. You’ve got to fight for your company,” he said. “If you don’t, no one else does.”

Dimon added that he would also consider calling the state that finishes runner up in the Amazon sweepstakes and offer to relocate 50,000 employees there “if we get the same deal.”

...:crap:

[cdimattio]

I'm just sickened by this s**t. As someone that's lived in upstate NY my entire life and seeing the way the state has lost jobs and more importantly people and the talent that they take with them the amount that's being thrown at the company is just shattering.

The New York State Amazon incentives would seem a prudent investment when compared to the Cuomo "Buffalo Billion" efforts. At least the jobs may actually materialize. Aside from the corruption indictments and trials, I think the state has paid ~$2 million per job created upstate?

It goes without saying that the whole HQ search was a farce and Bezos would have steered this to Washington DC and New York for far less money.

[Ozz]

I'm just sickened by this s**t. As someone that's lived in upstate NY my entire life and seeing the way the state has lost jobs and more importantly people and the talent that they take with them the amount that's being thrown at the company is just shattering.

Any idea what the number of jobs / payroll that are going to located in Queens? Before judging too harshly, those tax incentives are creating jobs, and not just Amazon jobs.

You might check this out: https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/the-multiplier-effect-of-innovation-jobs/

I don't like the "corporate welfare" states go thru to attract jobs, but I would have to think that the math pencils out to the positive.....

[unterhausen]

Now JPMorgan Chase is sure to want their share of public funding.

https://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20180227/FINANCE/180229893/dimon-says-jpmorgan-chase-will-seek-same-incentives-as-amazon (February 26, 2018)

:crap:The masters of the universe that work in finance always make noises like this, "I'm going to move." Yeah, go for it. I know there are finance companies in a lot of cities other than New York, but I don't think JPMorgan is going to be one of them or can really afford to be one of them. Maybe a branch office

eta: I don't think New York should have made these offers to Amazon. But hopefully they will fix the subway. Is fixing the subway a recurring theme here?

[torquer]

eta: I don't think New York should have made these offers to Amazon. But hopefully they will fix the subway. Is fixing the subway a recurring theme here?
Subway repairs only if there’s any money left over after the helipads are done.
The one good aspect of the deal (at least as reported) is that most of the subsidy is directly tied to actual jobs created.
Although there will probably be some creative bookkeeping on this as well.

And speaking of massive wealth transfers (upward), kudos to our northern neighbors for telling the IOC where they can (not) shove the 2026 winter games.

[Black Dog]

Subway repairs only if there’s any money left over after the helipads are done.
The one good aspect of the deal (at least as reported) is that most of the subsidy is directly tied to actual jobs created.
Although there will probably be some creative bookkeeping on this as well.

And speaking of massive wealth transfers (upward), kudos to our northern neighbors for telling the IOC where they can (not) shove the 2026 winter games.

This was the result of of vote. The people of Calgary did not want the games again. Citizens are getting wise to the giant ripoff that the olympics are. Lots of promises but at the end of the day the taxpayers are subsidizing the enormous greed of the IOC.

[jet sanchez]

I just heard on the radio that the cost of the Tokyo Olympics for 2020 is approaching $25 billion USD, four times what was initially budgeted.

The original bid was approved because organizers said that they would be able to make sure that these would be the cheapest Olympics ever; so far, it's now the second most expensive.

[jlwdm]

I just heard on the radio that the cost of the Tokyo Olympics for 2020 is approaching $25 billion USD, four times what was initially budgeted.

The original bid was approved because organizers said that they would be able to make sure that these would be the cheapest Olympics ever; so far, it's now the second most expensive.

You wonder why any country wants to hold the Olympics. Always argue their are financial benefits but does not seem to be the case anymore. Ridiculous costs and many facilities without any use after the Olympics.

Jeff

[Jaybee]

You wonder why any country wants to hold the Olympics. Always argue their are financial benefits but does not seem to be the case anymore. Ridiculous costs and many facilities without any use after the Olympics.

Jeff

Somewhere in the Intermontane West is hosting the 2030 Winter Olympics. SLC already has the venues from 2002, but who knows how much the updates will cost. Denver is pretty much starting from scratch, though if an Olympic bid means improved metro area transit, and an extra lane on 70/public transit to the Summit County resorts, I might be in favor of that. Assuming it still actually snows in Summit County in 2030, of course.

Reno/Tahoe was smart enough to back out.

[FlashUNC]

Any idea what the number of jobs / payroll that are going to located in Queens? Before judging too harshly, those tax incentives are creating jobs, and not just Amazon jobs.

You might check this out: https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/the-multiplier-effect-of-innovation-jobs/

I don't like the "corporate welfare" states go thru to attract jobs, but I would have to think that the math pencils out to the positive.....

Except there's plenty of evidence that it doesn't, that the largesse balloons inevitably, the number of jobs don't appear as promised, and taxpayers are the ones who get soaked. Look at Foxconn in Wisconsin. Darn thing isn't even built yet and it's being revised by the company to not meet the projections and lofty promises put out there.

Municipalities shouldn't be giving the richest man on the planet (at $150 billion and counting) a red cent for anything.

[bocobiking]

I’d have been in favor of tax-incentivizing Amazon to locate anywhere but here. Happily that has not been necessary.

[kevinvc]

The New York site will also scrap plans for a bunch of new housing, including around 1,500 affordable housing units. Story Here (https://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2018/11/15/amazon-deal-will-disrupt-plans-for-affordable-housing-on-long-island-city-sites-700784)

This is yet another part of what disgusts me about these deals.

[fiamme red]

There seems to be little hope of stopping this crooked deal: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/15/nyregion/amazon-queens-opponents.html.

But the opponents’ challenge is daunting: The deal reached between Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo, Mayor Bill de Blasio and Amazon was explicitly constructed to minimize the ability of local politicians to block it. The company would not agree to come to New York City, Mr. de Blasio said, unless it could be assured it would not have to go through the lengthy process of approvals that would give the City Council veto power...Comments (https://nyti.ms/2DroVbi#permid=29417492) from a Seattleite:

Having lived my entire life in Seattle, in the periphery of Amazon, I have begun to feel like a second class citizen in my own city. Amazon doesn't contribute to the communities it works within. It bulldozes them over and builds gaudy hipster cafes and office parks which serve only their six-figure salaried employees, almost all of whom are from out-of-state or international. And the effect of these new tech hires extends outside of Amazon proper into the entire community in the form of gentrification. I went to high school in Seattle's historically black neighborhood, the Central District, and watched as families who had lived in the neighborhood for generations were forced into the city's southern suburbs because of rent and property tax increases. Sometimes students would "live" with an uncle or extended family member so they could continue going to my high school, commuting for hours through traffic (another effect of Amazon) for. Sometimes students would just disappear. Often, families couldn't even afford the suburbs -- ten percent of the students in my high school were homeless. You see Amazon's employees sometimes. They wear little identification cards. It's a smug reminder of who, in 2018, belongs to the city's upper class, on the receiving end of all economic development, and the rest of the city, who, amid gentrification, must listen to outsiders who blindly glorify big tech, adding insult to injury. Is this the community you want, New York?Also, for what its worth, let me address some purported "benefits" of harboring a tech company:

Transportation:

Anybody who believes Amazon will somehow improve local infrastructure is very, deeply, wrong. In Seattle, Amazon has actually purchased an entire fleet of shuttles exclusively for its employees (As has Microsoft) because the public transportation here is so sorely lacking. They have never put any effort into improving public transportation for the rest of us because they know that it will be cheaper to buy their own shuttle fleet than to pay their fair share of taxes to fund public transportation.

"It helps small businesses:"

Nope. Amazon exercises vertical integration to an extreme. Everything, everything, their employees touch during the work week is on campus. In neighborhoods like Capitol Hill where Amazon employees like take their recreation, decades old businesses are replaced by decadent new stores, which are in of themselves multi-million dollar investments, that cater to the much higher price point of tech employees.

"They bring innovation to the community:"

How about Amazon opens a large, automated grocery store in your neighborhood that is ONLY FOR THEIR EMPLOYEES. They did that in mine. Felt very innovative.

Ask any Seattleite for their take on Amazon. Nine times out of ten its something negative. The tenth person is an Amazon employee.

[oldpotatoe]

Somewhere in the Intermontane West is hosting the 2030 Winter Olympics. SLC already has the venues from 2002, but who knows how much the updates will cost. Denver is pretty much starting from scratch, though if an Olympic bid means improved metro area transit, and an extra lane on 70/public transit to the Summit County resorts, I might be in favor of that. Assuming it still actually snows in Summit County in 2030, of course.

Reno/Tahoe was smart enough to back out.

New Governor of CO recognizes what a bad deal the Olympics are. Voters said no before, hopefully again. Gigantic expense that we have to shoulder.

[Ozz]

Except there's plenty of evidence that it doesn't, that the largesse balloons inevitably, the number of jobs don't appear as promised, and taxpayers are the ones who get soaked. Look at Foxconn in Wisconsin. Darn thing isn't even built yet and it's being revised by the company to not meet the projections and lofty promises put out there.

Municipalities shouldn't be giving the richest man on the planet (at $150 billion and counting) a red cent for anything.

That would be the legislators/govt officials fault, not the companies....

Companies will negotiate to get the best deal they can...what's the saying: A fool and his money are lucky to get together in the first place.

Unfortunately, we don't have much choice but to pay our taxes and let the govt "fools" make these deals.

FWIW - Amazon has been pretty good to the Seattle area for jobs and economic stimulation. I am not familiar with the Foxconn deal...I would guess that would be more manufacturing related vs programmers and tech folks at Amazon. Other than skyrocketing housing prices, the rest of the construction and service jobs have been pretty good for Seattle.

[William]

FWIW - Amazon has been pretty good to the Seattle area for jobs and economic stimulation. I am not familiar with the Foxconn deal...I would guess that would be more manufacturing related vs programmers and tech folks at Amazon. Other than skyrocketing housing prices, the rest of the construction and service jobs have been pretty good for Seattle.


From my observation of having lived there for many years and multiple recent visits I would agree for the most part, but the ballooning housing prices are a big one....huge IMO. Part of the exploding homeless population there is in part due to little affordable housing available.

These new locations may be in for the same trajectory.







William

[Ozz]

There seems to be little hope of stopping this crooked deal: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/15/nyregion/amazon-queens-opponents.html.

Comments (https://nyti.ms/2DroVbi#permid=29417492) from a Seattleite:

ridiculous....

Transportation - not a company's responsibility to build infrastructure...if the local govt won't do it, they will adapt (use their own fleet)

Small business - this is just BS...there are small shops and restaurants all over the Amazon campus...the employees are all over the downtown core at lunch, and most live nearby. The restaurants have never been busier.

Innovation - you do know Amazon owns Whole Foods? The store described sounds like a test for automating grocery shopping in the future. It is not ready for public consumption. Here is my anecdote on innovation: My kids go to a pricey private middle/high school. At the beginning of every year there are "get to know the other parents in your kid's class" parties. Nearly every response I get when I inquire as to what the parent does is: "I worked at Microsoft/Amazon/Google and now I am at a start up...." There is plenty of innovation that comes out of those companies.

FWIW - I am not in tech, nor do I work at a start up.

[Ozz]

From my observation of having lived there for many years and multiple recent visits I would agree for the most part, but the ballooning housing prices are a big one....huge IMO. Part of the exploding homeless population there is in part due to little affordable housing available.
William
That is part of it...the other part is a Seattle City Council that is borderline insane with how they deal with homelessness.....they know one thing: Throw more money at it.

Part of Amazon looking for a new HQ2 was that the Council wanted to put a "Head Tax" on businesses to pay for homeless services...specifically targeting Amazon. The measure did not pass, but shortly after this Amazon announced the search for a new HQ.

The best part is Bezo announcing recently that he is setting up a foundation to help the homeless (https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/13/technology/jeff-bezos-homeless-fund/index.html) If he wants to give the middle finger to the Seattle City Council, they should not get any of it.:cool:

[William]

That is part of it...the other part is a Seattle City Council that is borderline insane with how they deal with homelessness.....they know one thing: Throw more money at it.

Part of Amazon looking for a new HQ2 was that the Council wanted to put a "Head Tax" on businesses to pay for homeless services...specifically targeting Amazon. The measure did not pass, but shortly after this Amazon announced the search for a new HQ.

The best part is Bezo announcing recently that he is setting up a foundation to help the homeless (https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/13/technology/jeff-bezos-homeless-fund/index.html) If he wants to give the middle finger to the Seattle City Council, they should not get any of it.:cool:


Yes, I've read a lot about them as well as heard from many people who live in the area. "Insane" and "crazy" are words that are used often in describing some of the things they do.





William

[parris]

Cdimattio projects like Buffalo Billions, the film studio/production hub in Syracuse, and the nano chip facility in Utica are 3 of the deals that I see when I hear about this Amazon deal. There's many other deals where heavy incentives were given to companies with the "promise" of jobs, improvements to the local economy, lasting commitment to the region etc. Each of those and more have all failed to deliver while costing the taxpayers.

Ozz I don't blame Amazon in the least for the deal they were smart enough to make. I do blame the politicians though. I like just about every other NY resident has seen taxes and fees spiral while services and quality has tanked over the years.

[fiamme red]

Good riddance! :bike:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/nyregion/amazon-hq2-queens.html

Some unions supported the deal, and even those opposed had appeared willing to work with Amazon if the company agreed to not work against the unionization of its employees in New York. An Amazon representative, during one council hearing, pointedly said the company would not agree to such terms.https://itep.org/amazon-in-its-prime-doubles-profits-pays-0-in-federal-income-taxes/

Amazon, the ubiquitous purveyor of two-day delivery of just about everything, nearly doubled its profits to $11.2 billion in 2018 from $5.6 billion the previous year and, once again, didn’t pay a single cent of federal income taxes.

The company’s newest corporate filing reveals that, far from paying the statutory 21 percent income tax rate on its U.S. income in 2018, Amazon reported a federal income tax rebate of $129 million. For those who don’t have a pocket calculator handy, that works out to a tax rate of negative 1 percent. The fine print of Amazon’s income tax disclosure shows that this achievement is partly due to various unspecified “tax credits” as well as a tax break for executive stock options.

This isn’t the first year that the cyber-retailing giant has avoided federal taxes. Last year, the company paid no federal corporate income taxes on $5.6 billion in U.S. income.

[buddybikes]

Expansion of Nashville being done. Our daughter lives there, sure wish we did house investment last year...

[echappist]

Good riddance! :bike:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/nyregion/amazon-hq2-queens.html

https://itep.org/amazon-in-its-prime-doubles-profits-pays-0-in-federal-income-taxes/

nah nah nah nah, nah nah nah nah, hey hey, good bye

no idea why some would choose to revere Amazon's leader and holds him as a foil to the current President. sure, Bezos actually generates money and has a vision, but in the end, it's just a spat between two large dinosaurs for personal reasons. Lest we forget the story of emergency ambulances waiting outside Amazon warehouses, b/c Amazon was too cheap to install AC...

and a nelson muntz gif at the people who already engaged in real estate speculation in NY

[54ny77]

Hubris on all sides.

Amazon on haggling for a private helipad amidst billions of tax breaks, and politicians thinking they actually know how to create private sector jobs (since very few actually started and ran companies, let alone held a private sector job that produces some sort of economic benefit).

[parris]

Time to break out the popcorn to see which areas will jump through the most hoops to get the new location.

I have to believe that there was a good amount of chess playing at Amazon with this deal. Now that they've changed things up they're showing that they're willing to walk away from anything that they don't like.

[54ny77]

It probably gathered a treasure trove of demographic and geographic data in the process. Somehow, they'll be ok wherever they land. They should've gone to Stamford, close to different airports, lots of vacant office space (esp. the former UBS building, which would have been perfect), train access, proximity to NYC for those who wish to do reverse commute, etc.


Time to break out the popcorn to see which areas will jump through the most hoops to get the new location.

I have to believe that there was a good amount of chess playing at Amazon with this deal. Now that they've changed things up they're showing that they're willing to walk away from anything that they don't like.

[MoparPorsche]

Expand the Baltimore Facility.

[BobbyJones]

I thought I heard Newark somewhere today....

[zap]

Expansion of Nashville being done. Our daughter lives there, sure wish we did house investment last year...

Nashville is doing well.

Quietly going about business and attracting firms from NYC.

[Tony T]

Good riddance! :bike:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/nyregion/amazon-hq2-queens.html

https://itep.org/amazon-in-its-prime-doubles-profits-pays-0-in-federal-income-taxes/

So…. How will NYC use the the $3.5 Billion it saved to create new jobs?

New York Returns 25,000 Jobs to Amazon (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/opinion/amazon-new-york.html)

There were all sorts of problems with the deal New York cut to bring Amazon to the city, and Amazon is no paragon, but its abrupt withdrawal was a blow to New York, which stood to gain 25,000 jobs and an estimated $27 billion in tax revenue over the next two decades. This embarrassment to the city presents a painful lesson in how bumper-sticker slogans and the hubris of elected — and corporate — officials can create losers on all sides.

[FlashUNC]

So…. How will NYC use the the $3.5 Billion it saved to create new jobs?

New York Returns 25,000 Jobs to Amazon (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/opinion/amazon-new-york.html)

There were all sorts of problems with the deal New York cut to bring Amazon to the city, and Amazon is no paragon, but its abrupt withdrawal was a blow to New York, which stood to gain 25,000 jobs and an estimated $27 billion in tax revenue over the next two decades. This embarrassment to the city presents a painful lesson in how bumper-sticker slogans and the hubris of elected — and corporate — officials can create losers on all sides.

Fix MTA. Improve the schools. Fund small businesses and entrepreneurs.

A company that earned $11 billion in profit and paid $0 in federal income tax, led by the richest man on the planet doesn't need a handout from anyone.

[Tony T]

Fix MTA. Improve the schools. Fund small businesses and entrepreneurs.

A company that earned $11 billion in profit and paid $0 in federal income tax, led by the richest man on the planet doesn't need a handout from anyone.

Amazon has HUGE carryover losses, that's why no FIT. Its only recent that Amazon has turned a profit.

CT and NJ are still interested, so maybe NYC residents can commute and pay non-resident taxes while they wait for NYC to create 25,000 jobs.

https://www.stamfordadvocate.com/business/article/Connecticut-shows-renewed-interest-in-Amazon-HQ-13606817.php
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-14/n-j-governor-says-nyc-s-amazon-loss-should-be-newark-s-gain

[fignon's barber]

The bottom line is that the politicians tried to use Amazon as a political football, and Bezos said "eff it". Seems like you don't want to mess with Bezos these days, as NY and the Natty Enquirer have found out.

[MattTuck]

Why doesn't NYC just rely on its business friendly policies to attract other big employers? I am sure they are lining up, right?


:rolleyes::help:

[echappist]

The bottom line is that the politicians tried to use Amazon as a political football, and Bezos said "eff it". Seems like you don't want to mess with Bezos these days, as NY and the Natty Enquirer have found out.

that's one way to look at it

the alternative is that Amazon pitted cities against one another, trying to extract concessions, some of which are quite unpalatable and would not have garnered enough support. This is merely the result of unveiling of the terms of concession.

also, Amazon apparently accepted $500M in benefits to bring 25k jobs to NoVa. I'd imagine that people are rightfully pissed upon realizing that their own offer represents 5x or more what VA offered.

with all that said, does anyone know what the exact NYC terms were? were these tax deductions (reduction of a portion of corporate taxes owed), tax credits (waiver of annual corporate taxes, until subtotal reaches $3B), or grants (given whether or not there's taxable profit)?

[FlashUNC]

Why doesn't NYC just rely on its business friendly policies to attract other big employers? I am sure they are lining up, right?


:rolleyes::help:

Google, Microsoft and other tech companies have opened offices in the City without needed the kind of largesse Amazon was demanding.

Tough to argue New York is not business friendly when, yanno, Wall Street still exists.

[vincenz]

Eh, I lived in NYC for 25 years. The last thing the city needs is Amazon to be honest. Other cities could use the economic injection much more. It was a good idea for amazon to get out of there.

[shinomaster]

Leaving aside the point that getting the second Amazon HQ, who do think should get it?
Some of the criteria:
Well educated populous
Bike paths and infrastructure
International Airport
Housing
Access to major roads

Boston is trying very hard, except they aren't offering deep tax breaks. If they get it they will be ahead of places like New Jersey, who is trying to give away the farm. Boston has MIT, Harvard etc. Decent public transportation, an old racetrack for a campus, I 93 and I 95.

Atlanta, Washington DC and others can match most of that.

Who do you guys think should get it?


Are you saying that an Amazon HQ is actually going to be good for a city? http://fortune.com/2019/02/14/amazon-doesnt-pay-federal-taxes-2019/?utm_medium=social&xid=soc_socialflow_facebook_FORTUNE&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=fortunemagazine&fbclid=IwAR2ev4n_f94G3JWfzTqirWjBFN4VrdhI4xlFEsxlt LRsRmsh5ESHH39iuHc

[BdaGhisallo]

So…. How will NYC use the the $3.5 Billion it saved to create new jobs?



NYC hasn't saved anything. The $3.5 bio was, overwhelmingly, in the form of tax incentives. The city would forgo levying taxes on Amazon's future tax liability. No Amazon - no tax revenues - no incentives.

NYC doesn't suddenly have $3.5 bio sitting in a cookie jar it can now do something else with.

[sg8357]

Who knew NYC was anti-socialist ???:)

Still think the Isle of Man is the future Amazon HQ-Virtual.
As Leona Helmsley said, "taxes are for the little people"

[Mr. Pink]

NYC , of all places, doesn't have a jobs problem or an overall business problem, but, it certainly has a very bad affordable housing problem, which Amazon was only going to make much worse.

[Louis]

NYC hasn't saved anything. The $3.5 bio was, overwhelmingly, in the form of tax incentives. The city would forgo levying taxes on Amazon's future tax liability. No Amazon - no tax revenues - no incentives.

NYC doesn't suddenly have $3.5 bio sitting in a cookie jar it can now do something else with.

I'm no economist, but presumably the taxes would have been to pay for Amazon's share of the benefits that the city provides them. If they (Amazon) didn't pay the taxes, then the money to provide the benefits would have come from somewhere else. If Amazon's not there to get the benefits without paying the taxes, then everyone else benefits from Amazon not getting the freebies.

[shinomaster]

The World would be better off without Amazon.com

[victoryfactory]

NYC , of all places, doesn't have a jobs problem or an overall business problem, but, it certainly has a very bad affordable housing problem, which Amazon was only going to make much worse.


Word!

(do they still say that?)

LIC/Brooklyn is overbuilding highrise apartments. Even in my
neighborhood (Queens) there are new buildings going up.

The single family houses that once dominated here have all been converted (many illegally) into 2,3 and 4 families. Front yards have been paved over for more parking.

Meanwhile, the developers/owners were salivating over the prospect of 2.5-3K/month 1 bdrm apartments becoming the norm everywhere.

Where is a person of modest means supposed to live?
If you make $20./hour you can't afford a studio apt in NYC (If you can find one)!

rant over.
VF

[alancw3]

interesting that amazon is paying no corporate income taxes this year. and wait i don't blame amazon for that. they would be totally stupid not to take advantage of every tax loophole. i blame the politicians that have voted in the tax laws to allow this to happen. don't get me started on a capitalistic democracy where lobbying exists and politicians wanted to get reelected exists. so if you were a politician and joe blow citizen contributed $10 to your reelection campaign your xyz corporation contributed $10,000 to your reelection campaign how would you vote?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/amazon-taxes-zero-180337770.html

[bicycletricycle]

right? Every time I here someone refer to that 3 billion like it is money New York now has, well, it drives me nuts.


NYC hasn't saved anything. The $3.5 bio was, overwhelmingly, in the form of tax incentives. The city would forgo levying taxes on Amazon's future tax liability. No Amazon - no tax revenues - no incentives.

NYC doesn't suddenly have $3.5 bio sitting in a cookie jar it can now do something else with.

[oldpotatoe]

The World would be better off without Amazon.com

??:eek:

If ya don't like, putnameofcompanyhere, don't buy from them.

[schwa86]

There has been a lot of writing about tax incentives and whether they are worth it over the years. It's not just a one to one swap -- when people move in they use all kinds of other services (schools, roads, public safety, etc.). So you have to believe that all the corporate tax money you are foregoing will Ben more than made up for by the personal income taxes you collect. This is almost never the case in these mega deals.

I have not followed the NYC deal closely, but Boston was also asked for all kinds of infrastructure improvements that cost money, and even if financed through long-term debt, would have had a significant negative impact on the state budget (so you had to be damn well sure amazon lived up to its promises, and the improvements you are making had better be things you want to do regardless, not just for one company). I think in Boston we are getting at least a bit better at all this -- no patriots stadium financed with public funds, no olympics, GE got some money but it appears we are getting it back now that they are bailing out on their deal.

[echappist]

There has been a lot of writing about tax incentives and whether they are worth it over the years. It's not just a one to one swap -- when people move in they use all kinds of other services (schools, roads, public safety, etc.). So you have to believe that all the corporate tax money you are foregoing will Ben more than made up for by the personal income taxes you collect. This is almost never the case in these mega deals.

I have not followed the NYC deal closely, but Boston was also asked for all kinds of infrastructure improvements that cost money, and even if financed through long-term debt, would have had a significant negative impact on the state budget (so you had to be damn well sure amazon lived up to its promises, and the improvements you are making had better be things you want to do regardless, not just for one company). I think in Boston we are getting at least a bit better at all this -- no patriots stadium financed with public funds, no olympics, GE got some money but it appears we are getting it back now that they are bailing out on their deal.
not disagreeing with anything you said, but what if the whole state corporate tax money issue were a moot point, as creative accounting may allow corporations to say that they had no profits generated within that state in the first place

[Mr. Pink]

interesting that amazon is paying no corporate income taxes this year. and wait i don't blame amazon for that. they would be totally stupid not to take advantage of every tax loophole. i blame the politicians that have voted in the tax laws to allow this to happen. don't get me started on a capitalistic democracy where lobbying exists and politicians wanted to get reelected exists. so if you were a politician and joe blow citizen contributed $10 to your reelection campaign your xyz corporation contributed $10,000 to your reelection campaign how would you vote?

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/amazon-taxes-zero-180337770.html


Well, probably one reason Amazon pays little or no income tax is because they barely show a profit most years, investing most revenue into R&D and new infrastructure.

[shinomaster]

??:eek:

If ya don't like, putnameofcompanyhere, don't buy from them.

It's not that simple, plus they've ruined countless brick and mortar business and ruined retail.. etc. All so one greedy guy can become mega rich and not pay taxes?

[Jaybee]

It's not that simple, plus they've ruined countless brick and mortar business and ruined retail.. etc. All so one greedy guy can become mega rich and not pay taxes?

Is this the fault of the greedy guy, or the millions of people who shop solely on price and convenience?

[jlwdm]

It's not that simple, plus they've ruined countless brick and mortar business and ruined retail.. etc. All so one greedy guy can become mega rich and not pay taxes?

The internet changed the world. All shopping is different. Car buying is totally different.

Consumers have more choices at lower prices. I was looking for a jacket for my work partner the end of the year. There were 4700 coats and jackets at Nordstrom online. Just a small fraction in the store. Yesterday I looked at computer monitors at Best Buy and Costco. Very few in store, but all kinds of them online. Easy to get the size, inputs and quality you want. Prices are lower because inventory is not needed in all stores.

I can buy products from around the country and around the world that I never had access to before.

The owner of the shop where I get my haircut said Amazon is so important to a small business. He can order product and get it today, tomorrow or in a few days. He used to have to send an employee out to multiple stores trying to find a product and then pay whatever the price.

Retail has changed and retailers have to recognize that. To survive they must provide great product and great service.

A month ago someone told me their children might not ever set foot in a restaurant in the future. They just call for delivery. The world is changing.

Jeff

[jlwdm]

Is this the fault of the greedy guy, or the millions of people who shop solely on price and convenience?

It is not just price and convenience. It is often being able to get the product you want.

Jeff

[Tony T]

Is this the fault of the greedy guy, or the millions of people who shop solely on price and convenience?

And service. I've had Zero problems returning an item to Amazon.

[Plum Hill]

St. Clair County, Il.
It got the shaft on the new NGA HQ (why put it next to an existing military HQ base when you can stick it in a STL Ghetto?). New interchange on an Interstate highway, very close to an underutilized airport, semi-rapid transit to STL that should have already been extended to the location, probably free land.
I could make a killing selling my house and get out of the area. I know, selfish of me.

[azrider]

It's not that simple, plus they've ruined countless brick and mortar business and ruined retail.. etc. All so one greedy guy can become mega rich and not pay taxes?


No it really is that simple. Speak with your wallet. Period. If company stays in business well then your side didn't have enough momentum to make a difference. Tough cookies.

To say Amazon has "ruined countless brick and mortar and ruined retail" is painting with a very broad brush stroke. WalMart and Target started pinning the retail industry to the wall long time ago by forcing manufactures to lower prices and offering people a one stop shop of sorts across many different product lines instead of just specializing in one area. Amazon's model may very well have been the final nail in coffin for most of these companies but they're not solely responsible for whats happening right now. The biggest disruption in retail has been the digital age and internet itself. Those companies that have changed their model to fit the new consumer are succeeding (albeit at different pace). If your company can't make a digital transformation and keep up, then competition like Amazon exposes just how poorly your company has been run and you'll be FORCED to shut your doors.......a la Toy's R Us.

Few years back everybody loooooved pointing the finger at WalMart..........now everybody looooooves pointing the finger at Amazon.

Guarantee 90% of those same people who b*tch about those companies are utilizing their services at the same time. :rolleyes:

Maddening.

[shinomaster]

No it really is that simple. Speak with your wallet. Period. If company stays in business well then your side didn't have enough momentum to make a difference. Tough cookies.

To say Amazon has "ruined countless brick and mortar and ruined retail" is painting with a very broad brush stroke. WalMart and Target started pinning the retail industry to the wall long time ago by forcing manufactures to lower prices and offering people a one stop shop of sorts across many different product lines instead of just specializing in one area. Amazon's model may very well have been the final nail in coffin for most of these companies but they're not solely responsible for whats happening right now. The biggest disruption in retail has been the digital age and internet itself. Those companies that have changed their model to fit the new consumer are succeeding (albeit at different pace). If your company can't make a digital transformation and keep up, then competition like Amazon exposes just how poorly your company has been run and you'll be FORCED to shut your doors.......a la Toy's R Us.

Few years back everybody loooooved pointing the finger at WalMart..........now everybody looooooves pointing the finger at Amazon.

Guarantee 90% of those same people who b*tch about those companies are utilizing their services at the same time. :rolleyes:

Maddening.

I don't buy anything from Amazon and I don't shop at Walmart. My dad doesn't really have choice where he lives because all the retail has pretty much closed. How much does Walmart pay their employees? Do you think they have good benefits? These are terrible companies to work for. Maybe one man or one family shouldn't have so much power and wealth. It's just an abstract concept. When all the bike shops close because of online sales, who will put together bikes sourced from Wiggle or Ribble?

[54ny77]

Sounds like a business model that someone enterprising might take on!

On a fluke I checked Amazon for a Nitto seat post, and voila,there it was. Sold by Nitto, coordinated thru Amazon. On my doorstep in about a week, could have had it in two days but I got 5 bucks credit for taking the slow shipping option.

Not an LBS around that could get me what I need in person, or at least not without driving a good 4+ hours round trip to a specialty shop, assuming they have in stock (I've ordered Nitto stuff from them before, they've shipped it).

When all the bike shops close because of online sales, who will put together bikes sourced from Wiggle or Ribble?

[azrider]

I don't buy anything from Amazon and I don't shop at Walmart. My dad doesn't really have choice where he lives because all the retail has pretty much closed. How much does Walmart pay their employees? Do you think they have good benefits? These are terrible companies to work for. Maybe one man or one family shouldn't have so much power and wealth. It's just an abstract concept. When all the bike shops close because of online sales, who will put together bikes sourced from Wiggle or Ribble?

Oh I agree they're terrible companies. 1000% percent. I work with AWS daily (Amazon's Cloud services arm) and I've heard first hand some of the absolute horror stories about their cut throat culture.......and don't get me started on fact that WalMart employees alone cost Federal tax payers over $6.2B.....with a B.....in "public assistance" programs each year. It's all completely eff'ed.

I guess I should have been more specific with my earlier example and said "i can't stand people I know who b*tch about WalMart but then go there to buy their liquor, essentials, etc". It's the same people who complain about athletes salaries but then every Sunday where NFL jerseys and go to the games..........really???

"C'MON MAN" (pun intended)

[Tony T]

AWS S3 — costs me 65c/mo for my personal cloud backup.

[Jef58]

I can't comment on the headquarter move, but most of the bike stuff I order from Amazon comes from bike shops that have adapted to this. Those shops, I'm assuming, would be struggling if it wasn't for the instant and almost worldwide coverage they get through Amazon's network. Keep the price competitive with good customer service, and you can probably get by better through Amazon than running a brick and mortar shop.

I definitely am not commenting on Walmart's practices...

[oldpotatoe]

Maybe one man or one family shouldn't have so much power and wealth. It's just an abstract concept. When all the bike shops close because of online sales, who will put together bikes sourced from Wiggle or Ribble?

Called capitalism and I doubt in this here good ole UnitedStates, government restriction of any business like amazon is a 'good' idea.

Here in the republic, there are about 6 new car dealers BUT about 35 car repair places..THIS is the biz model some of these bike shops should embrace. Can't get 'service' over the interweb..maybe info but I tried to watch video about cleaning an older shotgun I have and there is NO WAY I'd try that myself.
So, places sell 'stuff' for less online, sell something they don't or can't sell..Like service...

But to punish a person or company because they actually DO fill a need, either thru availability, ease of shopping or price..that's dumb..Want to sell a better mousetrap? Build a better mousetrap..

BTW-there are some people who really can't pay the $ for tshirts found down
at small, local retailer, so they go to wallmart..Not everybody can buy based on something other than price.

[bikinchris]

I am for regulated capitalism. Money and power should not get you anything more than the average Joe. Multibillion dollar handouts by government should be illegal.

[Tony T]

I am for regulated capitalism. Money and power should not get you anything more than the average Joe. Multibillion dollar handouts by government should be illegal.

We have regulated capitalism.
Multibillion dollar handouts by (local) governments help bring jobs.
If this were illegal, then areas in decline would have no method of enticing businesses to take risks. The question regarding NY is why the Governor and Mayor decided it was necessary to give "handouts" for an area that may not need 25,000 new jobs (not saying it wasn't)

[echappist]

We have regulated capitalism.
Multibillion dollar handouts by (local) governments help bring jobs.
If this were illegal, then areas in decline would have no method of enticing businesses to take risks. The question regarding NY is why the Governor and Mayor decided it was necessary to give "handouts" for an area that may not need 25,000 new jobs (not saying it wasn't)
good and all when it's competing for new jobs (e.g. Toyota or VW wants to build a new plant), not so good when used to entice companies to move from one state to another (e.g. Boeing moving factory to S. Carolina)

[bikinchris]

We have regulated capitalism.
Multibillion dollar handouts by (local) governments help bring jobs.
If this were illegal, then areas in decline would have no method of enticing businesses to take risks. The question regarding NY is why the Governor and Mayor decided it was necessary to give "handouts" for an area that may not need 25,000 new jobs (not saying it wasn't)

It seems that 25,000 people sleeping in tents to be able to eat because they work at Amazon for one of the richest men in history didn't sound very enticing to New York.

[Mr. Pink]

We have regulated capitalism.
Multibillion dollar handouts by (local) governments help bring jobs.
If this were illegal, then areas in decline would have no method of enticing businesses to take risks. The question regarding NY is why the Governor and Mayor decided it was necessary to give "handouts" for an area that may not need 25,000 new jobs (not saying it wasn't)

You forgot about trillion dollar bailouts of our financial industry.

Also, licensing. Try entering certain professions like the legal and medical and even hairdressing biz without being approved by a combo of public and private official approval.

[Mikej]

And its all perfectly legal.

[BobbyJones]

You forgot about trillion dollar bailouts of our financial industry.

Also, licensing. Try entering certain professions like the legal and medical and even hairdressing biz without being approved by a combo of public and private official approval.

....along with the mandatory educational requirements (to be provided by a tax-exempt "business" entity that you pay for) to even be considered for that approval.

[pbarry]

It seems that 25,000 people sleeping in tents to be able to eat because they work at Amazon for one of the richest men in history didn't sound very enticing to New York.

Amazon wasn't going to hire them.

[jlwdm]

It seems that 25,000 people sleeping in tents to be able to eat because they work at Amazon for one of the richest men in history didn't sound very enticing to New York.

New York is expensive but it is hard to argue an average salary of $150k means everyone will be living in tents.

Jeff

[kppolich]

Is it really a headquarters if there is more than 1?

Why does Amazon need another office building? Solely for the tax incentives or do they really have that many people coming into work? For a cloud based computing company (AWS) they should be able to work remote or not all at one site.

Large warehouses, let the robots loose and let's get this conversation over with.

[Tony T]

It seems that 25,000 people sleeping in tents to be able to eat because they work at Amazon for one of the richest men in history didn't sound very enticing to New York.

Is Queens the "new Brooklyn"?
When did rents in Queens get so high?
(…is the solution to high rents to discourage new business?)

[schwa86]

We have regulated capitalism.
Multibillion dollar handouts by (local) governments help bring jobs.
If this were illegal, then areas in decline would have no method of enticing businesses to take risks. The question regarding NY is why the Governor and Mayor decided it was necessary to give "handouts" for an area that may not need 25,000 new jobs (not saying it wasn't)

I really disagree with this. Multi billion dollar handouts never bring a sufficient number of jobs to make the multi billion dollar handout affordable in the long term. The multi billion dollars is much better spent investing in public and higher education, and public infrastructure, Etc., such that companies want to locate there regardless of the handout. See NC triangle, Boston, TX, etc. The current FoxConn debacle in WI is a really good example.