Chainline/drivetrain issue and question. SOLVED!

[Clancy]

Ok, here's the deal.

I'm not going to mention the bike for now just in case. It's new and I'm starting to wonder if it's the problem.....

Dedicated gravel bike

SRAM Rival 22 hydro shifters with a Rival rear derailleur and a Force front derailleur. Everything is new except for the front derailleur, which is used but functions perfectly.

The crankset is the White Industries R30 sub compact 30/46, rear cassette is SRAM 11-32, less than 100 miles, new Shimano 11 speed chain. I just installed this crankset, prior I had a Force compact 34/50, but the problem described below happened with the Force crankset as well. Shim

I can get the shifting PERFECT using the small chainring but when I shift up to the big chainring, the shifting is off, acts as if there's not enough cable tension. If I tension the cable more to where it shifts correct, the shifting is off when I shift down to the small chainring plus now the guide pulls is no longer aligned perfectly under the small cog.

I have spent a HOURS trying to adjust, going crazy.

Derailleur hanger is perfectly aligned. I've checked it multiple times using the Park tool.

Cable is not dragging in the housing but to make sure I even ran a new cable.

So, if I'm doing everything correct when setting up the rear derailleur to shift properly in the small chainring- and let's assume I am doing it correctly-but the shifting is off when in the large chainring, what could it be?

Incorrect chainline?

The frame specs a 68 BSA BB and standard road crank. The rear spacing is 135.
The White Industries crank has a 45mm chainline if that helps with the diagnosis.

[Peter P.]

You sound like you know your technical stuff.

Have you tried measuring your chainline to verify it's actually 45mm?

Is the bare cable running through a plastic cable guide under the BB? Those guides usually have TWO mounting holes. Depending on which hole you mount it with, it will laterally shift the cable guide and can affect shifting.

[Clancy]

You sound like you know your technical stuff.

Have you tried measuring your chainline to verify it's actually 45mm?

Is the bare cable running through a plastic cable guide under the BB? Those guides usually have TWO mounting holes. Depending on which hole you mount it with, it will laterally shift the cable guide and can affect shifting.

No, have not measured, but will, great idea.

No, continuous cable housing. Cable housing is run smoothly, no kinks/sharp bends. The shift cable, when disconnected from the derailleur, pulls and releases smoothly as I shift up and down. Derailleur functions fine and I've double checked my b limit screw multiple times.

I'm saying, I'm pulling my hair out, I can't figure it out.

[jtakeda]

I feel like the continuous housing is the issue.

What kind of housing?

[-dustin]

Acting up throughout entire range of cassette?

[Clancy]

Jagwire housing.

I can adjust the derailleur spot on, guide pully aligned with small cog, cable pull adjusted just slight of taunt, and it will shift perfectly up and down the full range, flawlessly, until I shift up into large chainring. Then shifting hesitates shifting up, drops down too fast, which is a symptom of not enough cable tension. I shift back down to small chainring, it shifts flawlessly.

[Satellite]

Do you have the derailleur cable in the right groove? Happened to me on a rear 7800 group. I tuned to bike to perfection and had to remove the rear derailleur cable for some reason. When I re-installed I put the cable on the wrong side of the fixing bolt. I couldn't get the bike to shift through out the whole range I could get the top and lower cogs spot on but the middle of the cassette was crap. I cried uncle and took the LBS they found the issue pretty quick and I was busy kicking myself. So they took pity and didn't even charge me for finding my error. I instead that I pay so I bought a case of beer and shared stories of dumb DIY customers.

Also check that your cassette lock ring is to the proper torque. Sounds simple but often over looked.

[-dustin]

Problem was evident with old crank...what about old cassette and chain?

Upright bike, right? Not a recumbent or something with an extra long wheelbase?

Med cage RD?

[cachagua]

If I'm doing everything correct when setting up the rear derailleur to shift properly in the small chainring- and let's assume I am doing it correctly-but the shifting is off when in the large chainring, what could it be?


Seems like the derailleur's out of plane somehow -- when it swings around to accommodate the big ring's taking up more chain, it sits farther outboard...? Bent mounting bolt? Cage bent? h'mm, you'd know if it were crossthreaded into the hanger. But is anything uneven where the back of the derailleur's end faces against the hanger that would lean it just the slightest bit?

Is the lower pivot -- in fact, are both pivots tight, with no play? What about the pulleys?

If you can somehow get hold of another derailleur to try, that might reveal something.

[commonguy001]

I'm in agreement with cachuga, really sounds like a rear derailleur issue.

I know you've checked the hanger alignment but picking up a second never hurts for a bike that gets banged around some and you could also try that just to see. I've gone through a couple on my Warbird between tranporting it and picking up debris on a trail so a spare if it's fine never hurts.

So I'd start with a second derailleur and a hanger which may just be a spare but still you'll have a spare if you don't need it.

[Clancy]

I just installed the sub compact crankset. Along with the crankset I installed a different cassette with closer ratios to take advantage of the sub compact.

Before that I had a standard compact crankset with an 11-36. I had the identical shifting problem.

before that, when I bought the frameset brand new I built it up as a 2x10 with Force shifters, Force compact crank, an X9 rear derailleur and the 11-36 cassette. I had the same shifting problem.

I agree it sounds like a bent hanger but I've always found a bent hanger will show up as shifting ok in the lower part of a cassette, than start skipping further up, or if adjusted to correct on the upper range, it will shift poorly on the lower cogs. A bent hanger does not shift perfectly in one chainring and poorly in another.

I currently have the bike adjusted perfect - it will shift flawless in the entire range of the 11-32 11T cassette up and down, both in the stand and when riding.

Shift to the big chainring, and it shifts poorly, as described.

So this pretty much eliminates the cable, housing, rear derailleur, shifter, or anything else I can think of as a problem.

This is why I'm really starting to question if the chainline is correct on the bike.

I've got an email into the manufacturer asking what the chainline is that they designed the bike around.

It's a standard 54 dedicated gravel road frame

I know there's some brilliant bike techs out there. What's the problem or what am I missing?

[weisan]

So this pretty much eliminates the cable, housing, rear derailleur, shifter, or anything else I can think of as a problem.

This is why I'm really starting to question if the chainline is correct on the bike.

Based on your conclusions, it's the bottom bracket then.

[stien]

A picture could be worth 1000 words in this case. Is the RD housing too short?

[-dustin]

always used a shimano chain?

i've had bikes with funky chainlines, but it never resulted in odd rear shifting.

[oldpotatoe]

Things I would check.

-Full der housing...no kinks, bends, smooth ends, ferrules? Might try 5mm housing and metal ferrules.

-Rear der cage alignment, pulley direction, cage not upside down.

-RH shifter..maybe something wonky inside?

-Chain length-maybe too short? Chain installed with 'shimano' facing outboard?

[yetitotheheady]

Are the shift cables routed internally?

Ive seen cables unintentionally crisscrossed inside the frame. They can bind up against one another, hence the change in cable tension on the rear derailleur once you shift between the chainrings on the front.

[Clancy]

Things I would check.

-Full der housing...no kinks, bends, smooth ends, ferrules? Might try 5mm housing and metal ferrules.

-Rear der cage alignment, pulley direction, cage not upside down.

-RH shifter..maybe something wonky inside?

-Chain length-maybe too short? Chain installed with 'shimano' facing outboard?

Been waiting/hoping for your reply.

Full cable housing, no kinks, sharp bends. And! I isolated the shift cable by disconnecting the cable clamp at the derailleur, pulling on the cable as I work the shifter to check smoothness and that the shifters is indexing properly - everything is good.

Chain is cut perfect. Done the same way I've done hundreds before.

The symptoms again...

It shifts perfectly in the small chainring, poorly in the large.

When in the large chainring it acts as if there's not enough cable tension, classic. Hesitates when shifting up, drops two cogs (more like 1 1/2) when shifting down. Classic systems of loose cable tension.

Adjust cable tension while in the large chainring, and now it shifts poorly when in the small chainring.

It's done this with the current and new 2x11 drivetrain, also with a 2x10 older drivetrain.

I know this next question is overly broad but how does one determine if the chainline is correct? If the chain is on the large chainring, which cog should it be on when the chain is parallel or in line with the bike? Exactly in the middle of the 5th cog or middle cog?

The frame is a Salsa Vaya Ti purchased new by me. I've contacted Salsa and they had no answers or suggestions. This was a few weeks ago when I had the 2x10 set-up. I emailed them two days ago asking what the recommended chainline is, have not heard back.

It's a spectacular frame, beautiful, and rides wonderfully. Shifts like crap.

I didn't want to state the frame because I didn't want to disparage it or cast it in a bad light. However I'm beginning to wonder if it is the problem. In the specs it states it's designed around a 68 BSA BB to be used either 1X or 2X. In their first reply, Salsa confirmed that the bike is designed around a 68mm BB.

However, by my eye, it looks as if the chainline would be better if the crank sat out further as it would with a 73mm BB. Unfortunately, that requires another crankset.

Money going down a rabbit hole.

[Clancy]

Are the shift cables routed internally?

Ive seen cables unintentionally crisscrossed inside the frame. They can bind up against one another, hence the change in cable tension on the rear derailleur once you shift between the chainrings on the front.

All external housing and full housing.

Hard for me to see in my mind's eye how shifting into the large chainring would effect the cable tension on the rear derailleur if the rear derailleur housing is cut too short. Shifting up does reposition the rear derailleur throughout its entire range in effect pulling on the housing more. I've triple checked that but will again.

I like a big large loop going into the rear derailleur. I may install new and longer housing along with a new cable just to eliminate this as the problem. But I really don't believe it is. I've seen on full suspension MTB's where housing that's just a tad short will impact smoothness of shifting when the suspension is compressed. So you may be on to something.

I still suspect that the chainline is off.

[cmbicycles]

Post up some pictures of your setup, cable routing, etc... that way at least people can see what you/they are talking about.

[Pierre]

Are you supposed to be using a spacer in behind the cassette? If so, have you installed? Is the cassette nice and tight against the hub? I know, I'm reaching...

[Mark McM]

Bad chainlines can cause front shifting problems, and can cause noise and sometimes can cause chain jumping at the extremes of cross chaining, but it usually doesn't cause rear shifting problems (at least not the kind you are describing). Once the chain goes through the rear derailleur cage, it should become aligned properly with the cassette, and not cause shifting problems.

Offsets in rear shift indexing points between large and small chainrings is usually caused by rear derailleur alignment problems. The derailleur cage will extend and retract to take up different amounts of chain slack between large and small chainrings - if the derailleur is misaligned, the cage will move at an angle as it extends/retracts, resulting in different lateral alignments (and consequentially offsets in indexed positions).

You say that you have double checked the hanger alignment, but could the derailleur itself be twisted? Here's a quick check: Find the gear combination that results in the rear derailleur cage being in the most vertical alignment. Stand behind the bike, and eyeball the cassette and the derailleur cage. Is the derailleur cage lined up in the same vertical plane as the cassette sprockets? Another test is to observe the alignment between the engaged cassette sprocket and the derailleur top pulley while somebody else turns the cranks and shifts the front derailleur between chainrings. Do you see the derailleur top pulley move laterally when the shifting between chainrings?

[lzuk]

My wife's aluminum salsa had poor shifting. Did all the same checks. Finally found the weld on the dropout touched the mating surface of the derailleur. Filed it flat and good to go. Never heard back from Salsa as well

[-dustin]

When in the large chainring it acts as if there's not enough cable tension, classic. Hesitates when shifting up, drops two cogs (more like 1 1/2) when shifting down. Classic systems of loose cable tension.
this is the anomaly that rules out a number of potentials.

i'd say it's the chain or cassette, but given that both are new...who knows. too bad you don't have a sram chain laying around.

[cachagua]

Shift cables... can bind up against one another, hence the change in cable tension on the rear derailleur once you shift between the chainrings on the front...



Oooh, another really good idea. Definitely something to check. Forgot this completely when I was thinking about it before.

Although, would that make the r der shift like the cable was tighter, rather than looser?

[BikeNY]

Bad chainlines can cause front shifting problems, and can cause noise and sometimes can cause chain jumping at the extremes of cross chaining, but it usually doesn't cause rear shifting problems (at least not the kind you are describing). Once the chain goes through the rear derailleur cage, it should become aligned properly with the cassette, and not cause shifting problems.

Offsets in rear shift indexing points between large and small chainrings is usually caused by rear derailleur alignment problems. The derailleur cage will extend and retract to take up different amounts of chain slack between large and small chainrings - if the derailleur is misaligned, the cage will move at an angle as it extends/retracts, resulting in different lateral alignments (and consequentially offsets in indexed positions).

You say that you have double checked the hanger alignment, but could the derailleur itself be twisted? Here's a quick check: Find the gear combination that results in the rear derailleur cage being in the most vertical alignment. Stand behind the bike, and eyeball the cassette and the derailleur cage. Is the derailleur cage lined up in the same vertical plane as the cassette sprockets? Another test is to observe the alignment between the engaged cassette sprocket and the derailleur top pulley while somebody else turns the cranks and shifts the front derailleur between chainrings. Do you see the derailleur top pulley move laterally when the shifting between chainrings?

This make the most sense to me. Get a new rear derailleur and give that a try. Or something funny on the derailleur hanger.

[-dustin]

you know, how old is this derailleur? is it new new, or new to you?

when sram derailleurs get some age, the little...ball joint?...that keeps the cage inline will wear. when the cage is rotated foward, it can shift out of place, which will cause the cage to kick like / <- that. small ring isn't a problem. it'll be noticed when you shift into the big ring. easy way to see it is to look at the derailleur from behind and see if a gap forms between the cage and the knuckle when in the big ring.

Pictured derailleur has many, many miles on it, but shows what I'm talking about.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4512/37796812211_395acca436_z.jpg

[oldpotatoe]

Been waiting/hoping for your reply.

Full cable housing, no kinks, sharp bends. And! I isolated the shift cable by disconnecting the cable clamp at the derailleur, pulling on the cable as I work the shifter to check smoothness and that the shifters is indexing properly - everything is good.

Chain is cut perfect. Done the same way I've done hundreds before.

The symptoms again...

It shifts perfectly in the small chainring, poorly in the large.

When in the large chainring it acts as if there's not enough cable tension, classic. Hesitates when shifting up, drops two cogs (more like 1 1/2) when shifting down. Classic systems of loose cable tension.

Adjust cable tension while in the large chainring, and now it shifts poorly when in the small chainring.

It's done this with the current and new 2x11 drivetrain, also with a 2x10 older drivetrain.

I know this next question is overly broad but how does one determine if the chainline is correct? If the chain is on the large chainring, which cog should it be on when the chain is parallel or in line with the bike? Exactly in the middle of the 5th cog or middle cog?

The frame is a Salsa Vaya Ti purchased new by me. I've contacted Salsa and they had no answers or suggestions. This was a few weeks ago when I had the 2x10 set-up. I emailed them two days ago asking what the recommended chainline is, have not heard back.

It's a spectacular frame, beautiful, and rides wonderfully. Shifts like crap.

I didn't want to state the frame because I didn't want to disparage it or cast it in a bad light. However I'm beginning to wonder if it is the problem. In the specs it states it's designed around a 68 BSA BB to be used either 1X or 2X. In their first reply, Salsa confirmed that the bike is designed around a 68mm BB.

However, by my eye, it looks as if the chainline would be better if the crank sat out further as it would with a 73mm BB. Unfortunately, that requires another crankset.

Money going down a rabbit hole.

Regardless of some number, ‘proper’ chain line is when in middle of cogset, line between center of crank is parallel to top tube. So, middle of cogset, small ring small angle and middle of cogset, big ring, small angle. Unless it’s WAY out, it’s not chain line. Something is making cable draggy she going into big ring, which essentially ‘tightens’ the chain. I still think I’d try 5mm der housing and metal ferrules first(cheap also).

[dddd]

We've had a few real experts weigh in here, I believe cachagua nailed it early on, and I feel certain that the problem rests with the rear derailer cage somehow rotating off-axis from the rear axle.
I hadn't thought of the weld at the mounting surface, but I have had to correct many drivetrains that had off-axis (with the rear axle) derailer hangers and bent derailers, and all presented the described symptoms exactly, though not always in the same "direction" with respect to which chainring had which sort of problem.
Perhaps both of the derailers used here were bent. It is not an uncommon problem!
But I would also re-visit the derailer hanger's mounting bolt face being off-axis with the rear axle.
In the absence of alignment tools, ANY new and mounted long-cage rear derailer should provide a good enough indicator of whether the cage is running parallel to the cogs at various angular positions. I would install such derailer without cable, and then position the cage (by hand) vertically under the larger cogs of a clean cassette. Then I would sight down the parallelism between the large cogs and the cage (the pullies) from above.
I would then position the cage horizontally and repeat that, while viewing from behind the bike.
I have yet to come across a bike where an off-axis defect that was bad enough to be a problem did not show up with such a careful visual inspection.

Lastly, One can actually inspect a derailer's straightness while it is off of the bike simply by holding it in front of the horizon while sighting off of the end of the mounting bolt! I have used this to reject many used-derailer purchases in the field, and have come to trust my eye to the degree that I feel that any significant misalignment between cage and mounting bolt is clearly visible. Here again, one should look from at least two angles by rotating the cage about it's pivot.

[Clancy]

You say that you have double checked the hanger alignment, but could the derailleur itself be twisted? Here's a quick check: Find the gear combination that results in the rear derailleur cage being in the most vertical alignment. Stand behind the bike, and eyeball the cassette and the derailleur cage. Is the derailleur cage lined up in the same vertical plane as the cassette sprockets? Another test is to observe the alignment between the engaged cassette sprocket and the derailleur top pulley while somebody else turns the cranks and shifts the front derailleur between chainrings. Do you see the derailleur top pulley move laterally when the shifting between chainrings?

Last night I replaced the cable and housing just to make sure that the problem isn't caused by the cable housing being cut too short and causing increased tension when shifting up to the large chainring.

Problem remained.

With the bike in the stand I then had my wife pedal and shift as I observed the guide pully's alignment. And sure enough, the guide pulley moves ever so slightly inboard every time.

Reminder, the bike uses full cable housing.

The current set-up uses a new Rival 1 rear derailleur, new Rival 22 Hydro shifters, new SRAM Red 11-32 cassette, new Shimano chain.

The derailleur is a Rival 1 obviously intended for a 1X set-up. I assumed it wouldn't matter if it's used in a 2X set-up - I thought what does the rear derailleur care what's happening up front?

Is the Rival 1 derailleur the issue?

Because! Here's the other piece, the bike was doing the exact thing when I first built it up using SRAM Force 2x10 shifters and a SRAM X-9 rear derailleur. Exact same symptoms.

Where the Rival 1 is designed for a 1X set-up, the X-9 is designed for a 2X and the cable pull ratio is correct to use with Force shifters.

And, I had installed that groupset on a Gunnar Hyper-X and the shifting on that bike was perfect. When I purchased the Salsa Vaya Ti, I transferred the groupset from the Gunnar to the Salsa and the problems began.

So now I believe it's a soft derailleur hanger. The hanger is the stock one that came on the bike. I'm going to order a replacement from Wheels Manufacturing, not Salsa.

I also ordered a Rival mid cage derailleur to eliminate the Rival 1 as the issue.

Common that a derailleur hanger is not stiff enough?

Money down a rabbit hole

[oldpotatoe]

Last night I replaced the cable and housing just to make sure that the problem isn't caused by the cable housing being cut too short and causing increased tension when shifting up to the large chainring.

Problem remained.

With the bike in the stand I then had my wife pedal and shift as I observed the guide pully's alignment. And sure enough, the guide pulley moves ever so slightly inboard every time.

Reminder, the bike uses full cable housing.

The current set-up uses a new Rival 1 rear derailleur, new Rival 22 Hydro shifters, new SRAM Red 11-32 cassette, new Shimano chain.

The derailleur is a Rival 1 obviously intended for a 1X set-up. I assumed it wouldn't matter if it's used in a 2X set-up - I thought what does the rear derailleur care what's happening up front?

Is the Rival 1 derailleur the issue?

Because! Here's the other piece, the bike was doing the exact thing when I first built it up using SRAM Force 2x10 shifters and a SRAM X-9 rear derailleur. Exact same symptoms.

Where the Rival 1 is designed for a 1X set-up, the X-9 is designed for a 2X and the cable pull ratio is correct to use with Force shifters.

And, I had installed that groupset on a Gunnar Hyper-X and the shifting on that bike was perfect. When I purchased the Salsa Vaya Ti, I transferred the groupset from the Gunnar to the Salsa and the problems began.

So now I believe it's a soft derailleur hanger. The hanger is the stock one that came on the bike. I'm going to order a replacement from Wheels Manufacturing, not Salsa.

I also ordered a Rival mid cage derailleur to eliminate the Rival 1 as the issue.

Common that a derailleur hanger is not stiff enough?

Money down a rabbit hole

Yes...and a new rear der can't hurt...Good luck. Hope it works.

[-dustin]

Common that a derailleur hanger is not stiff enough?

common? no.

[commonguy001]

Last night I replaced the cable and housing just to make sure that the problem isn't caused by the cable housing being cut too short and causing increased tension when shifting up to the large chainring.

Problem remained.

With the bike in the stand I then had my wife pedal and shift as I observed the guide pully's alignment. And sure enough, the guide pulley moves ever so slightly inboard every time.

Reminder, the bike uses full cable housing.

The current set-up uses a new Rival 1 rear derailleur, new Rival 22 Hydro shifters, new SRAM Red 11-32 cassette, new Shimano chain.

The derailleur is a Rival 1 obviously intended for a 1X set-up. I assumed it wouldn't matter if it's used in a 2X set-up - I thought what does the rear derailleur care what's happening up front?

Is the Rival 1 derailleur the issue?

Because! Here's the other piece, the bike was doing the exact thing when I first built it up using SRAM Force 2x10 shifters and a SRAM X-9 rear derailleur. Exact same symptoms.

Where the Rival 1 is designed for a 1X set-up, the X-9 is designed for a 2X and the cable pull ratio is correct to use with Force shifters.

And, I had installed that groupset on a Gunnar Hyper-X and the shifting on that bike was perfect. When I purchased the Salsa Vaya Ti, I transferred the groupset from the Gunnar to the Salsa and the problems began.

So now I believe it's a soft derailleur hanger. The hanger is the stock one that came on the bike. I'm going to order a replacement from Wheels Manufacturing, not Salsa.

I also ordered a Rival mid cage derailleur to eliminate the Rival 1 as the issue.

Common that a derailleur hanger is not stiff enough?

Money down a rabbit hole

This guy on Ebay sells a really nice machined version for your bike that is only 15 bucks. I've used the same hanger with great luck. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Derailleur-hanger-SALSA-Beargrease-Colossal-El-Mariachi-Mamasita-Selma-Vaya-142-/191616965785?hash=item2c9d42dc99

Also - I think trying a Rival Mid Cage is a great idea.

[Jaybee]

I don't think the issue is just the Rival 1 RD, since you had issues with X9 as well, but SRAM 1x specific RD's don't play well with 2x setups. The geometry is different, and there isn't nearly as much vertical movement in the parallelogram.

[yetitotheheady]

I don't think the issue is just the Rival 1 RD, since you had issues with X9 as well, but SRAM 1x specific RD's don't play well with 2x setups. The geometry is different, and there isn't nearly as much vertical movement in the parallelogram.

I'm in agreement here a Sram 1x specific rear derailleurs will definitely not work with a 2x setup.

It is strange that he had the same problem with his 10spd Force/X9 setup. That works for sure, well... unless its a old 9spd X9 rear der.

[Clancy]

The X9 is 10 speed and worked fine as a 2x10 set up on a Gunnar.

I'm honed in on the hanger as the issue since I can clearly see the alignment of the derailleur move inboard as I shift up to big chainring, than move back to correct alignment when I shift down. I have a new hanger coming as well as a standard Rival rear derailleur. I'll report back once they arrive and installed.

[zank]

I would have a shop do a quick check with a hook tool and make sure the rear end is in plane.

[Clancy]

Only alignment tool I know of is the Park FAG-2. Assume same thing?

[zank]

Yes.

[Mikej]

Does sram use a b-tension type screw?

[Peter P.]

Clancy-you better post what you find out with the new hanger/derailleur. I'm losing sleep over this!

[yetitotheheady]

Clancy-you better post what you find out with the new hanger/derailleur. I'm losing sleep over this!

Same here I wish I could see what is happening and want to know what the solution ends up being.

I'd be blown away if it is a chainline issue, highly doubt it. Hanger maybe but something doesn't sound right from what you described.

Ok this sounds crazy and I feel even strange asking but... You aren't using brake housing in lieu of shifting housing by accident?

[Clancy]

To recap

New Salsa Ti Vaya frame. First built up with SRAM Force that came off of a Gunnar Hyper-X. Shifted fine on the Gunnar, not so on the Salsa.

Problem - if rear derailleur is adjusted correctly in the small chainring, when shifted to the big, shifting is off. Hesitates and acts if the hanger is bent.

Fixes - hanger alignment checked, perfect. Installed new housing (full housing), new cable, checked alignment of derailleur guide pulley (30-40 times!).

Still no good.

Installed a Rival 22 hydro disc brake set-up with Rival 1 rear derailleur and a White Industries sub compact crankset.

Shifting still off - going crazy. Post problems on Paceline.

A brilliant recommendation.... check to see if hanger is moving by having someone pedal and shift while I observe from the back. Bingo! Hanger noticeably moves inward as bike is shifted up to the big chainring.

Order a new hanger from https://www.ebay.com/itm/Derailleur-hanger-SALSA-Beargrease-Colossal-El-Mariachi-Mamasita-Selma-Vaya-142-/191616965785?hash=item2c9d42dc99. Arrives and is beautiful! Installed. Eliminates 90% of the issue!

I now suspect the remaining 10% is due to me trying to make the Rival 1 derailleur work with a 2X set up.

Install a Force22 rear derailleur- bike shifts perfect!

Problem all along? A soft derailleur hanger that was flexing under load. I've never seen that. Scores of bent or misaligned but never one that is too soft.

Thanks to everyone, particularly the recommendation to observe the hanger while shifting and the tip on the aftermarket hanger.

[-dustin]

i've seen a few hangers bend while being ridden, owned one myself, but none have ever had the elasticity to basically revert back to normal. that's an odd one. post a picture of the hanger? i'm curious as to what it looks like.

[BdaGhisallo]

Problem all along? A soft derailleur hanger that was flexing under load. I've never seen that. Scores of bent or misaligned but never one that is too soft.

Thanks to everyone, particularly the recommendation to observe the hanger while shifting and the tip on the aftermarket hanger.

A fair number of ProTour teams get their sponsors to make their frames with one piece non-replaceable hangers or get special hangers made and fitted because they find the stock hangers and dropouts too soft. Trek did this for a while for their teams.