Are you just happy to see me, or is that a motor in your seat tube?

[54ny77]

This vid from a pro cyclocross race is hilarious.

Scroll to about 44 seconds thru 1:00 or so and watch the mini-Tesla work its wonders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6w3TJs0lks

[Black Dog]

Wow. That is some damming evidence.

[William]

:)

[earlfoss]

I bet in 10-20 years it comes out that Fabian used a motor. I bet pros from his heyday accept it.

Most of the footage of Wout has me on the fence but for the one where he's off the bike and the rear wheel spins up. That looks pretty damning to me.

No one seems to want to actually do anything about it though, so enjoy watching the races!

[Bwana]

Better quality videos of that part clearly show his pedal digging in to the ground and spinning around.

[jumphigher]

Really disgraceful if true! Makes you wonder how prevalent this problem really is..

[msl819]

Some of those rear wheels seems to spin up without the cranks being rotated. As I understand it a downtube motors aid in the ability to turn the crank but if the chain isn’t moving how does the rear wheel spin up? Help me understand. Are there motors in the rear hub?

[Black Dog]

Some of those rear wheels seems to spin up without the cranks being rotated. As I understand it a downtube motors aid in the ability to turn the crank but if the chain isn’t moving how does the rear wheel spin up? Help me understand. Are there motors in the rear hub?

Good question. I was amazed by the shots of the wheels spinning up when the rider was dismounted. A lot of the other shots seemed like normal effects.

[Tony]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=199683

[etu]

wasn't convinced when it first was discussed, but that Ryder Hesjedal clip is pretty convincing for a motor. how can you drag the rear tire on pavement for a good second and then have it reaccelerate enough to spin the bike around?

[Black Dog]

wasn't convinced when it first was discussed, but that Ryder Hesjedal clip is pretty convincing for a motor. how can you drag the rear tire on pavement for a good second and then have it reaccelerate enough to spin the bike around?

Because the cranks were not spinning.

[cmg]

motor in the hub or magnets in the rims with coils in the chain stays? not clear how either would work but i didn't believe the motor in the seatube could provide enough torque to make a difference. may be it it's a hidden jet under the saddle.

[choke]

I bet in 10-20 years it comes out that Fabian used a motor.There is a well respected member across the hall (he's a member here as well but seldom posts), who works in the industry, who has claimed that he did indeed use one before the UCI paid any attention to them.

motor in the hub or magnets in the rims with coils in the chain stays? not clear how either would work but i didn't believe the motor in the seatube could provide enough torque to make a difference. may be it it's a hidden jet under the saddle.http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/product-news/this-electromagnetic-hidden-motor-bike-can-go-100kph-211660

http://road.cc/content/news/128979-lightweight-show-e-bike-concept-eurobike

[smontanaro]

Some of those rear wheels seems to spin up without the cranks being rotated. As I understand it a downtube motors aid in the ability to turn the crank but if the chain isn’t moving how does the rear wheel spin up? Help me understand. Are there motors in the rear hub?

If I remember correctly from the 60 Minutes piece, seat-tube-mounted motors are so last decade. The latest technology appears to be inductive motors in the rims.

Edit: Wasn't there a kerfuffle about the weight of Sky's TT bikes at the TdF? Something about not being able to remove and weigh the wheels independent of the frame?

[chiasticon]

not saying nobody is using one, but the three clips of Wout (cyclocross dude with the Zipps and the WC stripes) aren't convincing to me. they've been debunked elsewhere but I'll share my thoughts...

for the ones where he's in mud and his wheel starts spinning really fast... you put down huge torque to get through mud, get buried a bit, slowly kinda getting stuck, keep putting down torque, then the mud gives way and wow, guess what happens...? the wheel spins real fast!

the one where he's running and it starts to spin (from the Italian world cup last winter), that's the worst quality video of it I've seen so you can't really tell what's going on. in better ones, you can see his pedal smacks a rock while he's running, sending the wheel going. he's also going downhill through slippery mud at the time... why the hell would he engage a motor then?

the other thing is that in all the clips of him where it claims to show a motor, he's in mud. sometimes in turns or off-camber mud. you wouldn't use a motor while in these situations, as it would really decrease your level of control; speed goes way up, traction goes way down, likelihood for crashing and getting caught goes way up. you'd use it on straightaways, specifically those that are either paved or where traction is at a premium.

speaking of which, the Koppenbergcross one where Van Den Driessche rides away easily... THAT's where you'd use a motor in cross. and indeed, that one is suspect. and she was caught with a motor right after it...

[William]

So is the motor for the hard pulls, or just allows you to soft pedal and conserve energy so you are fresh for the hard pulls/attacks?






William

[54ny77]

Forum member "Choke," thanks for the link to the EM-based wheel thingamajig. That's really amazing tech, in terms of the tech itself.

As for the bike racing/cheating aspect for which it's been used, well, that's lame.

If the Cancellara or Froome spiders really come out of the closet in years to come, that would be crushing. Doping by individuals is one thing, but a hidden mechanical "motor" used in the bike? Man, that's lower than low.

[AngryScientist]

Doping by individuals is one thing, but a hidden mechanical "motor" used in the bike? Man, that's lower than low.

couldnt agree more. anyone who puts a hidden motor in their bike and competes should absolutely be ashamed of themselves.

[oldpotatoe]

There is a well respected member across the hall (he's a member here as well but seldom posts), who works in the industry, who has claimed that he did indeed use one before the UCI paid any attention to them.


He raced with one? And he is still considered ‘well respected’? Huh?

[DRZRM]

He raced with one? And he is still considered ‘well respected’? Huh?

I think the "he" being referred to in the quote was Fabian, not the poster, but as you make clear, the vague wording makes it hard to be sure.

I bet in 10-20 years it comes out that Fabian used a motor. I bet pros from his heyday accept it.


There is a well respected member across the hall (he's a member here as well but seldom posts), who works in the industry, who has claimed that he did indeed use one before the UCI paid any attention to them.

[choke]

He raced with one? And he is still considered ‘well respected’? Huh?

I think the "he" being referred to in the quote was Fabian, not the poster, but as you make clear, the vague wording makes it hard to be sure.DRZRM is correct, the 'he' was referring to Cancellara....so to be clear, the well respected member, who has worked in the industry for years (much of that time in Europe), claims that FC used a motor in the past.

[54ny77]

That Paris Roubaix escape was probably among the most questionable.

Boy could we all imagine if all his big TT wins were tainted as well? What a bummer of a cloud now hanging over his terrific career.

LeMond, as usual, was right when he talked about the legitimacy of bike changes, that you should only be changing a bike if yours is completely toast.

DRZRM is correct, the 'he' was referring to Cancellara....so to be clear, the well respected member, who has worked in the industry for years (much of that time in Europe), claims that FC used a motor in the past.

[weisan]

wanna see something funny?

Fast forward to 4:28 - Superprestige Women's Cyclocross
http://www.steephill.tv/players/youtube3/?title=Cyclocross+Superprestige+Ruddervoorde+-+Women%27s+Elite+On-Demand&dashboard=&id=fpsCRO_rGq8&yr=2017

[54ny77]

Women's cyclo-cross presented by Honda?

wanna see something funny?

Fast forward to 4:28 - Superprestige Women's Cyclocross
http://www.steephill.tv/players/youtube3/?title=Cyclocross+Superprestige+Ruddervoorde+-+Women%27s+Elite+On-Demand&dashboard=&id=fpsCRO_rGq8&yr=2017

[Black Dog]

wanna see something funny?

Fast forward to 4:28 - Superprestige Women's Cyclocross
http://www.steephill.tv/players/youtube3/?title=Cyclocross+Superprestige+Ruddervoorde+-+Women%27s+Elite+On-Demand&dashboard=&id=fpsCRO_rGq8&yr=2017

sooo, what are we looking for?

[weisan]

sooo, what are we looking for?

Spinnin' wheels

[oldpotatoe]

Spinnin' wheels

They need to take the great big white decals off so it's not so obvious...:eek:

[shovelhd]

I don't know about that. If you make a fast cyclocross dismount. it's normal for wheels to be spinning a bit.

[David Tollefson]

Spinnin' wheels

Yes. Front and rear. What's your point? Note that none of the CRANKS are spinning...

[weisan]

don't think the cranks need to be moving in order to "activate" the motor.

but really, I am not that interested in this discussion about motor-driven bikes, just jesting with the witch hunt that goes after "if wheels spinnin', your motor's runnin'

[54ny77]

that electro magnetic wheel tech doesn't cause cranks to spin, right?

that would explain why no cranks-a-spinnin'.

[seanile]

just look like a hub full of race-worthy bearings to me.

[Black Dog]

Spinnin' wheels

Yea but the front and rear were spinning and they stopped as soon as the riders put the wheels on the ground. I appreciate the tease. :)

They were running up those hills fast...that was impressive!

[54ny77]

Special Spanish bearings lubed with bulls blood?

just look like a hub full of race-worthy bearings to me.

[GregL]

Rather than start a new thread...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-to-investigate-gaimons-cancellara-mechanical-doping-accusations/

Wonder if Sparty's 2010 Ronde and Roubaix bikes are available for inspection?

Greg

[donevwil]

...Wonder if Sparty's 2010 Ronde and Roubaix bikes are available for inspection?

Greg

I anticipate the inevitable, "Cancellara's Roubaix winning bicycle recently stolen from his trophy room/garage/museum ..." headline.

[Jaybee]

Certainly the trophy bikes have had the motor removed and a proper crankset placed in them, no? :bike:

[fignon's barber]

Rather than start a new thread...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-to-investigate-gaimons-cancellara-mechanical-doping-accusations/

Wonder if Sparty's 2010 Ronde and Roubaix bikes are available for inspection?

Greg


So Gaimon watched it on tv, and declares " that f****r probably had a motor". Won't Gaimon just please go away. It feels like he's written more books than Protour races ridden.

[Imaking20]

^this.

Also, this entire discussion (anywhere, not just this particular thread) makes me think of the movie 23. You can find anything you look hard enough for - whether it's real or not.

It's crazy how many people ride bikes and still have no understanding of momentum/inertia

[batman1425]

So Gaimon watched it on tv, and declares " that f****r probably had a motor". Won't Gaimon just please go away. It feels like he's written more books than Protour races ridden.

The reason he didn't ride more protour races and is writing books instead is because of his stance on doping. He couldn't be competitive and be clean, so he stopped racing rather than stoop to cheating. Personally, I think his books are unique perspective of the pro-cyclist life with a lot of the BS cut out. He's pissed he couldn't keep his job with out having to cheat and I think that's pretty reasonable. Him being vocal about his experience and continuing to ask for answers rather than tossing his hands in the air and saying "what are you going to do" helps humanize the impact of doping/cheating.

[rshak]

The reason he didn't ride more protour races and is writing books instead is because of his stance on doping. He couldn't be competitive and be clean, so he stopped racing rather than stoop to cheating. Personally, I think his books are unique perspective of the pro-cyclist life with a lot of the BS cut out. He's pissed he couldn't keep his job with out having to cheat and I think that's pretty reasonable. Him being vocal about his experience and continuing to ask for answers rather than tossing his hands in the air and saying "what are you going to do" helps humanize the impact of doping/cheating.



Bwahahaha! Man needs to know his limitations. Gaimon is a climber, not a rouleur like Cancellara or Boonen. At best he would be a domestic. Maybe he needs to eat more cookies?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[CunegoFan]

The reason he didn't ride more protour races and is writing books instead is because of his stance on doping. He couldn't be competitive and be clean, so he stopped racing rather than stoop to cheating. Personally, I think his books are unique perspective of the pro-cyclist life with a lot of the BS cut out. He's pissed he couldn't keep his job with out having to cheat and I think that's pretty reasonable. Him being vocal about his experience and continuing to ask for answers rather than tossing his hands in the air and saying "what are you going to do" helps humanize the impact of doping/cheating.

He didn't ride more Pro Tour races because he wasn't good enough. Now is a bitter ex-pro spreading his own BS like a monkey flinging its feces. It is not based on inside information or even hearsay. No, it is wild accusations based on viewing old Youtube clips. He does not have any more information than the nutters over at Cycling News' forum. What will he put in his next book? Conspiracy theories based on his analysis of the Zabruder film? Maybe he can help O.J. during his pursuit of the real killers.

[batman1425]

Bwahahaha! Man needs to know his limitations. Gaimon is a climber, not a rouleur like Cancellara or Boonen. At best he would be a domestic. Maybe he needs to eat more cookies?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Gaimon wasn't in the race the day in question nor is he trying to suggest that if he was, he got robbed a victory. His first and only Roubaix was 2016 and even then it was a last minute addition due to injuries and by his own admission, it wasn't a race for him. He was told to he needed to fill in, so he did, and did well. He made it into a dangerous early break which is super hard at Roubaix. Unfortunately it had a bit too much horsepower to be given a leash and it was reeled in, then he got caught up behind and in crashes. Not a terrible performance for his first go, and as a climber.

The point is not that he personally feels robbed of that win, it's that the culture of doping and cheating creates an environment where the riders that are trying to do it clean struggle to even hang on. It's part of what created the pressure for many riders to dope in the first place. Phil left the game rather than cheat. His book and the worst retirement ever project calls attention to the issues that have plagued, and will continue to be pervasive in Cycling. Phil feels as bad for all the other guys that were working their buts off just to get robbed of results, or lose contracts, because the other guys around them were on juice.

Personally, I think his experience in the pro-peloton gives him the right to call BS if he so chooses. It helps keep the discussion alive. Cycling is far from reformed and we shouldn't be complacent.

[batman1425]

He didn't ride more Pro Tour races because he wasn't good enough. Now is a bitter ex-pro spreading his own BS like a monkey flinging its feces. It is not based on inside information or even hearsay. No, it is wild accusations based on viewing old Youtube clips. He does not have any more information than the nutters over at Cycling News' forum. What will he put in his next book? Conspiracy theories based on his analysis of the Zabruder film? Maybe he can help O.J. during his pursuit of the real killers.

Wasn't good enough for who? Wasn't good enough to keep up with the dopers? Yep, absolutely right, he wasn't good enough to hang in a field full of juiced up leaders and super domestiques.

To be frank, we don't know what he has or has not seen during his time in the peloton. Also he wasn't the one who put Fabians move into question - he's recovering what has been claimed and implicated by others.

People don't want to think that their cycling idols were cheaters. We need to get over it. Chances are, anyone who was at the tip of the spear over the last 15 years had some questionable help getting there. Phil is one rider that isn't afraid to sling some feeces over it and keep the conversation going. Sticking our heads in the sand and hoping it will get better wont fix anything.

[oldpotatoe]

He didn't ride more Pro Tour races because he wasn't good enough. Now is a bitter ex-pro spreading his own BS like a monkey flinging its feces. It is not based on inside information or even hearsay. No, it is wild accusations based on viewing old Youtube clips. He does not have any more information than the nutters over at Cycling News' forum. What will he put in his next book? Conspiracy theories based on his analysis of the Zabruder film? Maybe he can help O.J. during his pursuit of the real killers.

You can say that twice..CN forum is the wacky rec.bicycles.tech, version 2.0..nutters included. :)

[Clean39T]

He didn't ride more Pro Tour races because he wasn't good enough. Now is a bitter ex-pro spreading his own BS like a monkey flinging its feces. It is not based on inside information or even hearsay. No, it is wild accusations based on viewing old Youtube clips. He does not have any more information than the nutters over at Cycling News' forum. What will he put in his next book? Conspiracy theories based on his analysis of the Zabruder film? Maybe he can help O.J. during his pursuit of the real killers.


Wow. Have you even read his books?

[Clean39T]

Gaimon wasn't in the race the day in question nor is he trying to suggest that if he was, he got robbed a victory. His first and only Roubaix was 2016 and even then it was a last minute addition due to injuries and by his own admission, it wasn't a race for him. He was told to he needed to fill in, so he did, and did well. He made it into a dangerous early break which is super hard at Roubaix. Unfortunately it had a bit too much horsepower to be given a leash and it was reeled in, then he got caught up behind and in crashes. Not a terrible performance for his first go, and as a climber.



The point is not that he personally feels robbed of that win, it's that the culture of doping and cheating creates an environment where the riders that are trying to do it clean struggle to even hang on. It's part of what created the pressure for many riders to dope in the first place. Phil left the game rather than cheat. His book and the worst retirement ever project calls attention to the issues that have plagued, and will continue to be pervasive in Cycling. Phil feels as bad for all the other guys that were working their buts off just to get robbed of results, or lose contracts, because the other guys around them were on juice.



Personally, I think his experience in the pro-peloton gives him the right to call BS if he so chooses. It helps keep the discussion alive. Cycling is far from reformed and we shouldn't be complacent.


+1 - thank you for adding a thoughtful response to some serious drivel..

[Clean39T]

So Gaimon watched it on tv, and declares " that f****r probably had a motor". Won't Gaimon just please go away. It feels like he's written more books than Protour races ridden.


Read the book. This article takes everything out of context.

[Clean39T]

The reason he didn't ride more protour races and is writing books instead is because of his stance on doping. He couldn't be competitive and be clean, so he stopped racing rather than stoop to cheating. Personally, I think his books are unique perspective of the pro-cyclist life with a lot of the BS cut out. He's pissed he couldn't keep his job with out having to cheat and I think that's pretty reasonable. Him being vocal about his experience and continuing to ask for answers rather than tossing his hands in the air and saying "what are you going to do" helps humanize the impact of doping/cheating.


His latest book isn't even that much about being pissed at ex-dopers; it's about training his face off, having some unlucky breaks, and not being quite good enough at exactly the right time (or young enough) to continue his career as a domestique. He celebrates those who are better than him, and even excuses Vaughters' behavior to an extent in the end. It's a really good read, balanced, and educational. I laughed, I cried, and had a hard time putting it down.

[FlashUNC]

Wasn't good enough for who? Wasn't good enough to keep up with the dopers? Yep, absolutely right, he wasn't good enough to hang in a field full of juiced up leaders and super domestiques.

To be frank, we don't know what he has or has not seen during his time in the peloton. Also he wasn't the one who put Fabians move into question - he's recovering what has been claimed and implicated by others.

People don't want to think that their cycling idols were cheaters. We need to get over it. Chances are, anyone who was at the tip of the spear over the last 15 years had some questionable help getting there. Phil is one rider that isn't afraid to sling some feeces over it and keep the conversation going. Sticking our heads in the sand and hoping it will get better wont fix anything.

Phil would do far more good naming names with doping than, yanno, weird claims about motors. If doping really ruined his career rather than, say, a shrinking number of pro tour roster spots and teams unwilling to bring on a 31 year old domestique, it's time to help break the omerta.

[Vientomas]

I've seen no response from Fabian...perhaps he is consulting with a libel attorney???

[batman1425]

Phil would do far more good naming names with doping than, yanno, weird claims about motors. If doping really ruined his career rather than, say, a shrinking number of pro tour roster spots and teams unwilling to bring on a 31 year old domestique, it's time to help break the omerta.

Fair point - but again, Phil didn't make claims about motors. That's been out there for some time. His book recounts those events to make a point about the culture and his experience.

He's telling a story about what impact the culture of doping/cheating has had on the guys on the cusp - which is a different perspective that what is commonly discussed elsewhere.

I don't see his comments as sour grapes. In fact, he readily owns when someone else is just flat out better than he is and knows his limitations, but when that person has doped to get there, thats where he feels robbed.

Edit - the original allegations with Fabian came in early 2016 from two Italians that had been concerned about motorized doping for some time.

[batman1425]

His latest book isn't even that much about being pissed at ex-dopers; it's about training his face off, having some unlucky breaks, and not being quite good enough at exactly the right time (or young enough) to continue his career as a domestique. He celebrates those who are better than him, and even excuses Vaughters' behavior to an extent in the end. It's a really good read, balanced, and educational. I laughed, I cried, and had a hard time putting it down.

It's on my list, just haven't gotten to it yet. There is a lot of this same tone in his youtube series. He'll always acknowledge others that are truly better than he is and gets why some doped, but doesn't agree with it or appreciate what it did to the sport and the ability of guys like him to participate in it.

[Clean39T]

It's on my list, just haven't gotten to it yet. There is a lot of this same tone in his youtube series. He'll always acknowledge others that are truly better than he is and gets why some doped, but doesn't agree with it or appreciate what it did to the sport and the ability of guys like him to participate in it.

One other thing - every time he didn't get selected, or had a rough result, he doubled-down on training, did what he was asked, etc. - the guy is a winner, not a whiner - and anyone saying otherwise obviously has only read excerpts taken out of context. His basic argument/advice is right in line with this: http://calnewport.com/books/so-good/ Another good and recommended read, especially for the millenials among us..

[fignon's barber]

Read the book. This article takes everything out of context.


Ehhh...that won't be happening anytime soon. I've actually had first hand experience with Gaimon. A few seasons ago, we entrusted our team's clothing order to him and his Podium brand custom cycling clothes business. The decision was made based on the promise of "Italian clothing designed by a European pro". We figured, "what the hell, help the guy out". What we got was comically bad Chinese made junk. I'm talking chamois sewn in backwards, legs on bibs 4 inches short, medium jerseys sized the same as XL with the only difference being they cut the elastic hem 8 inches shorter on the medium, zippers breaking when first removed from packaging. Soon after, they shut their doors, I believe.
My comment wasn't meant to rehash some sort of clean v doper diatribe, more of a statement about an annoying huckster.

[velofinds]

Sorry to hear about your experience. Fundamentally he seems like a good guy and I like him, but that doesn't mean he can't be bad at business. Based on what little I know of him it sounds like he's never had a "real" job before in his life, so while unfortunate, that story doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

[Clean39T]

Sorry to hear about your experience. Fundamentally he seems like a good guy and I like him, but that doesn't mean he can't be bad at business. Based on what little I know of him it sounds like he's never had a "real" job before in his life, so while unfortunate, that story doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

Could very well be true. As with most things, it sounds like there is plenty of nuance here - doesn't make for good internet generalizations, but such is life.

My comments are just about what I know from listening to his podcast, watching youtube vids, and reading his books. Never met the guy myself.

[Imaking20]

I think Gaimon is an insecure hypocrite. I have his first book and I was a fan of him for the entertainment value. But the dude has gone against most everything he started this Strava war about and now just won't shut up. The argument about "he quit because he refused to cheat" is about a decade late and wreaks of nuthugging. He couldn't get another job because he's not as fast as he thinks he is. That's why he's turned his Strava assaults on local amateur racers in SoCal. And why Chad Haga probably could have just ridden him off his wheel on Mt. Evans.

So if Phil is "one of the 10 best climbers in the world" ...what does that make Chad Haga? The kid is awesome (and I'm a huge fan), but I don't see him competing for yellow next year.


FWIW, my disdain started with a little spat online with Gaimon who acted like a total punk - instigating some BS - then writing a million page blog the next day acting like a victim. People who are guilty of nothing don't need to try as hard as he does to justify their actions.

[Mikej]

At some point, everybody has to realize that everybody cant win. Motor or not, some guys are just faster than others.