Spokes yanked right out of the rim...WTB i19

[Wayne77]

Has anyone seen this before? (see pics below). 2 spokes pulled right out of the rim (drive side). I alluded to this in my "want to buy" post in the classifieds looking for new 650B disc wheels. The last time I rode this bike was at the Crusher race earlier this year (60 mile gravel race, 10,000 feet climbing, nearly as much descending). After racing exclusively road the last 4 months I started to clean up the bike (Trek Crockett) for a planned gravel ride this weekend. Looked down and saw these gaping holes in the rear rim. The rear wheel, as expected is very out of true and won't turn. The crazy thing is it was spinning just fine at the Crusher...and it has just been sitting around since then. Bizarre. Is it possible for some initial/unseen damage to occur (possibly during the Crusher...there is a fast, very steep downhill with LOTS of washboard..and HEAVY braking), then while the bike is sitting around the two spokes eventually pull out of the rim?

These rims get great reviews, so I'm not going to immediately jump to the conclusion that the rim was defective. Perhaps I'm at fault here...not sure

These are 700c WTB Frequency i19 rims 3X/32H, wheelsmith DB14 spokes. The wheels have been used for two year, a few CX races here and there. Not abused, but have been used for a lot of gravel riding. One of my favorite routes does have a long gravel descent with lots of washboard (my least favorite part of that route).

Other factors that may come into play here:

- Both spokes that pulled out of the rim are drive side.

- I am 5'11" 170 lbs. No, the bike has never been hucked, jumped of bridges, or entered any DH events :-)

- tires used are WTB Riddler 45mm tires @ 45 psi, tubeless (maybe too big a tire or too high pressure for that rim?). They were installed a few days before the race. Previously I had been using 40c WTB Nano, tubeless

- The Trek Crockett frame clears these 45mm tires just fine, however there was a very slight clearance issue (the corner of the tread BARELY brushed an the dimpled inside the drive side chain stay). Day before the race I noticed this and asked my shop if I could just put a spacer on the drive side axle to slightly move the wheel inward. Instead the slightly re-dished the wheel. Looked like the mechanic went around the wheel giving a 1/8- 1/4 turn on the non drive side spoke nipples. I don't recall seeing him also loosed the drive side nipples. Could this have put undue pressure on the drive side spokes?

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4451/37423897660_4d214e52b6_z_d.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4514/37010939023_8d5009d3ec_z_d.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4493/36971813054_f3462fb6ae_z_d.jpg

And of course, I have to post a picture of the bike itself. Frame is nothing special, but I really like this bike. Currently set up with Sram Red 10speed, 34/46 crank, 11-36 cassette, Sram XX mtb der, TRP Spyre brakes.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2920/33069728282_21f672905b_b_d.jpg

[gdw]

How old are the rims and do you know what aluminum alloy was used in their construction? Are they OEM models purchased off of Ebay? I ask because WTB changed the alloy several years ago after allegedly experiencing problems with the first OEM version.

[Peter P.]

Looks like a brittle alloy, as gdw suggests. Different alloys have different applications. Rims don't usually fail like that from one particular ride such as you suggest with your Crusher event.

Rebuild it with the same rim with presumably a different alloy, and reuse the spokes. Just tape the new rim to the old rim and move the spokes over.

[Wayne77]

How old are the rims and do you know what aluminum alloy was used in their construction? Are they OEM models purchased off of Ebay? I ask because WTB changed the alloy several years ago after allegedly experiencing problems with the first OEM version.


The rims are two years old. I bought them new off Amazon if I recall correctly. Not sure what alloy to be honest...sounds like I should contact WTB to see if these rims came from that batch

[Ken Robb]

When I read "pulled out" I was expecting to see the hole in the rim had expanded a little and allowed the nipple to slip through. The photo shows catastrophic failure of the rim. I agree that it looks like it was built with an alloy too brittle for this application either by faulty selection specification or manufacture. I have to think the failure occurred after your ride or you would surely have noticed it.

[ORMojo]

In case you hadn't seen this in the news, be thankful it is just a bicycle wheel. And let's all be hopeful it doesn't start happening to planes, trains, and automobiles.

Kobe Steel Scam Hits Planes, Trains, Automobiles (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-13/kobe-steel-scam-hits-planes-trains-automobiles-quicktake-q-a-j8pto39q)

[dgauthier]

(...) Looked like the mechanic went around the wheel giving a 1/8- 1/4 turn on the non drive side spoke nipples. I don't recall seeing him also loosed the drive side nipples. Could this have put undue pressure on the drive side spokes? (...)

In answer to your last question, no.

Drive side spokes have such a shallow angle that the force they extert barely changes when the non-drive side spokes are tightened or loosened. If you've ever built or trued a rear wheel, this is easy to observe.

In fact, one technique for building a rear wheel is to bring the drive side spokes up to full tension first, then use the non-drive side spokes to dish the wheel. This is only possible because the increase in drive side tension is so slight. So the mechanic did exactly what he was supposed to do. Definitely blame the rim, not the mechanic.

[cnighbor1]

Black anodizing softens the aluminum
Send photos to rims maker for his thoughts

[Hindmost]

...Bizarre. Is it possible for some initial/unseen damage to occur (possibly during the Crusher...there is a fast, very steep downhill with LOTS of washboard..and HEAVY braking), then while the bike is sitting around the two spokes eventually pull out of the rim?...

Where are the rim fragments?

[peanutgallery]

Amazon, live by the sword - die by the sword, you've lost all the Bezos invested in that. After 2 years you're sort of on your own, especially with a rim. There is no wrrnty basically. If somebody gave you something I'd be shocked

Who knows where the the rim came from. Pulling what looks to be an aluminum nipple thru a rim is quite a feat.You have to be careful not to wreck the nipps when winding up the tension, much less something like that. Count yourself lucky that the failure wasn't more catastrophic

I would recommend a Grail or HED from a reputable source and in the hands of a competent builder and call it good. I don't particularly like WTB rims and would never put one on a bike, nor build one up...even for $

[DavidC]

100% without a doubt, right away, send an email to WTB with photos. They’ll want to see it and know about, and certainly they’ll take care of you too. I’d be surprised if they don’t send you new rims and ask for you to send back the busted ones, all on their dime. And as someone else mentioned, just reuse exact same hubs and spokes!

But very importantly, WTB needs to know about it in case it’s an issue that could harm other users. Just copy paste your OP into an email.

[Peter P.]

... I bought them new off Amazon if I recall correctly.

Makes me wonder whether those rims may be Chinese knock-offs.

[peanutgallery]

More like WTB allowed those out on Amazon by "accident"

Nothing gets thrown away, there's a buck in anything and sucker born every minute. Reputable source is important, at this level I would say that amazon isn't. Great place for toilet paper and watchbands, beyond that....?

My expectation would be very low

Makes me wonder whether those rims may be Chinese knock-offs.

[gdw]

The first generation of I19 rims were made from 7000 series alloy and were replaced by models made from an alloy called WT69. Bikewagon and a couple other vendors were selling the OEM 7000 series rims a few years ago for reasonable prices. They were labeled Frequency Race instead of Team.

[sales guy]

These are older rims. They might be only 2yrs from your purchase, but they switched them about 3 years ago. The finish of the rim is different. It's not glossy like that. That's a first generation rim. They did have some issues with them. I didn't. And neither did the 6 I built up. But a friend who owns a shop built up two sets and both had issues. WTB gave me 16 rims back when they were first coming out and had me build up some for testing. 4 went to buddy/shop owner. I built up a set for me, a set for a racer buddy and a set for a regular rider. Our 6 are still solid. One guy just used them to race Leadville-3rd time on them.

It's just a flukey thing. Call up WTB and they should take care of them. If they don't, let me know, I will handle it for you.

[Wayne77]

Thanks - sincerely appreciated. I'll definitely contact them. And thanks to everyone else commenting here - great info.


These are older rims. They might be only 2yrs from your purchase, but they switched them about 3 years ago. The finish of the rim is different. It's not glossy like that. That's a first generation rim. They did have some issues with them. I didn't. And neither did the 6 I built up. But a friend who owns a shop built up two sets and both had issues. WTB gave me 16 rims back when they were first coming out and had me build up some for testing. 4 went to buddy/shop owner. I built up a set for me, a set for a racer buddy and a set for a regular rider. Our 6 are still solid. One guy just used them to race Leadville-3rd time on them.

It's just a flukey thing. Call up WTB and they should take care of them. If they don't, let me know, I will handle it for you.

[oldpotatoe]

The rims are two years old. I bought them new off Amazon if I recall correctly. Not sure what alloy to be honest...sounds like I should contact WTB to see if these rims came from that batch

Poor choice of aluminum alloy for the rim, perhaps a bit too much tension..very common on other rims like first gen mavic MA3..regardless of tension.

[Wayne77]

Update: Props to WTB. I sent them pics, and they are sending me two new rims (and rim tape!). All they needed was a screenshot of the invoice. I don't even need to send the old rims in. That's a super classy move and I'm now a big WTB fan...love their tires too.

I had already bought some 650B wheels here, so once I swap out the rims I'll have a set of 700c wheels too. Maybe I'll use one for slicks and another for a more rugged off road tire.

I've never built a wheel before, but I might try to swap out the rims myself. Any pointers?

[gpendergast]

I've never built a wheel before, but I might try to swap out the rims myself. Any pointers?

If the effective rim diameters of the old and new rims are the same, as others had mentioned you could tape the new rim beside the old one and move the spokes over. This is a nice way to get your feet wet because you don't have to be concerned with the lacing pattern as you are copying what was done previously. You should definitely get some nice new (brass!) nipples too

[oldpotatoe]

Update: Props to WTB. I sent them pics, and they are sending me two new rims (and rim tape!). All they needed was a screenshot of the invoice. I don't even need to send the old rims in. That's a super classy move and I'm now a big WTB fan...love their tires too.

I had already bought some 650B wheels here, so once I swap out the rims I'll have a set of 700c wheels too. Maybe I'll use one for slicks and another for a more rugged off road tire.

I've never built a wheel before, but I might try to swap out the rims myself. Any pointers?

Yup, send them to me and let me build them. Building good wheels isn’t hard but can be difficult....:)

[DarkStar]

Seen cracked eyelets on old rims but never seen this level of damage.

[Black Dog]

Update: Props to WTB. I sent them pics, and they are sending me two new rims (and rim tape!). All they needed was a screenshot of the invoice. I don't even need to send the old rims in. That's a super classy move and I'm now a big WTB fan...love their tires too.

I had already bought some 650B wheels here, so once I swap out the rims I'll have a set of 700c wheels too. Maybe I'll use one for slicks and another for a more rugged off road tire.

I've never built a wheel before, but I might try to swap out the rims myself. Any pointers?



I've never built a wheel before, but I might try to swap out the rims myself. Any pointers?

Send them to Oldspud.

[Wayne77]

Yup, send them to me and let me build them. Building good wheels isn’t hard but can be difficult....:)

I'll be in touch