Thiking of running some 650B wheels on my cx/gravel bike designed for 700c..bad idea?

[Wayne77]

I'm currently shopping around for some new wheels for my Trek Crockett. It has lots of clearance. I've been able to run 45mm WTB Riddler tires on 700c rims...plenty of clearance with the exception of the inside of the drive side chain stay where the outside is dimpled in for the chain ring. There is only has 2mm clearance. Anyway, I got a wild hair and thinking of replacing my damaged WTB i19 wheels with some 650B rims. No specific reason... maybe it would give me a little more clearance for even fatter tires? I've always wanted to try the smoother tread 47mm WTB Horizon. Any significant weight or handling considerations to think of? Or maybe since I'm already running 45c tires, the 650B benefits (bigger tires with the end result being similar overall diameter) are justified... That 45 mm tire I'm using on a 700c rim does result in quite a large diameter, probably a lot more rolling weight than the 35c tires I had before. Maybe going 650B with a similar tire gets me back down to something closer to 700c + regular tire overall diameter..

Thoughts?

[MaraudingWalrus]

The information on Boyd's website about their gravel 650b "road plus" wheelset talks about sizes, it's somewhere around 700xnormal road bikeish outer diameter.

I think WTB has, somewhere on their website, a list of some compatible frames for "road plus."


I did it with my bike (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=206716). I think if you have room for 700x45 or so, you can probably fit the Horizons or byways. Not sure what all you'll gain, probably not a whole lot in terms of grip or comfort for offroad, if you're already riding big monster tires, but I'd guess you'd see a drop in rotational inertia...the benefits of which are hotly contested here on the forum if you do some searching.

I would see if you can try fitting a set of wheels with big old tires on em from somewhere before buying something crazy expensive to find it not fit afterwards.

[sales guy]

Here's a link to a good write up about choosing the right gear for an event. He talks about 650 vs 700 and tire choices.

http://www.velonews.com/2017/10/bikes-and-tech/how-to-choose-a-bike-for-gravel-the-three-cs_450104

[ergott]

I have 650X42s. The tires weigh 350g and so do the rims plus 20g of sealant. That setup has very low weight considering how much tire I have. Another benefit is overall diameter is similar to 700X23 so the frame sits like a road bike.

I think more people on disc bikes should be open to the idea. It's faster with no loss in comfort.

PS - The Gravel Kings are excellent. Roll great at speed and grippy too. I went with them over the Gravel Kings for a bit more flat protection. They are still very light tires. These 42mm tires weigh about as much as 25mm Continental Gatorskins.

[Cornfed]

I think it's a great idea. ;)

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=210441&highlight=m60

[ColonelJLloyd]

It depends as much on the tire as the wheel size. If you replace the Riddlers with a similar tire you won't notice a whole lot. There are 700x40-45mm tires that are lighter and more supple. Wider (say i23) and lighter rims and going tubeless (if you weren't already) will make a noticeable difference.

I had a frame built to take as big as 27.5x2.2 or 700x38. First set I built was a 1840g 650b dynamo set and I haven't had the desire to build a 700c wheelset yet. I've tried some other tires, but am enjoying SBH EL or 2.1" Liteskin Thunder Burts the most.

[weisan]

http://alicehui.com/bike/RS/650b.jpg

[marciero]

I've done this with two frames with great results.
Yes, handling is different, owing as much, probably more, to the lower pressure than to slight change in trail. Not better or worse, just different. I think it likely will work best with bikes that were designed for narrower tires though. I went from 700 28-30 to 48-650b 48-52mm tires (SBH and Byways tubeless). The bikes look like they were designed for it. If you are already running 45 tires the bike is going to sit a lot lower.

Recently discussed here


https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=2225402#post2225402

[sparky33]

Do it.
There is something perfect about a snappy aluminum cx frame on chubby 650b tires.
I set my Zanconato cx with 650b on occasion and it’s buckets of fun. It really adds a new dimension to a great bike. I only wish the my clearance on 650x48 was a little better, but your Crockett might have plenty.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171014/43015dc62309ed68e0036cb1d212ef85.jpg

[Wayne77]

Thanks for the great thoughts here. I think I'm sold. Sparky, that Zanconato looks like boatloads of fun. Really leaning towards the custom build route at this point. I did come across this pre-order set online...not that I'm considering it but I'm curious if anyone knows about Hunt wheels. Can you tell what rim they're using here? Maybe a Pacenti or Stans branded as their own? Or maybe they make their own rims.

https://www.huntbikewheels.com/products/hunt-650b-adventure-sport-disc-27-5-gravel-road-trail-wheelset-1579g-24deep-25wide-339-pre-order-sept-wk4

[Gartenmeister]

I did it on a Salsa Vaya. It came with something like 700x40 with tons of clearance. I swapped the steel fork for a Whiskey carbon one to save some weight and it was a bit tight on the tire. To get more clearance, cut more weight, and because it was cool at the time (2014?) I put 650b wheels (Stan's Crest) and Soma Cazaderos on it.

It's been that way for years now and has mostly been fine. As others have mentioned the handling changes somewhat. It is probably more nimble now, which is good since the Vaya is a bit of a truckish bike in factory form. The wheel/tire/tubeless setup is very light by comparison and for what it cost (not much). The bike is mostly a loaner for friends now and it does everything from road rides to gravel to light single track to really sketchy desert bushwacking. Sometimes all on the same ride. Credit to the tires here.

The one caveat is that since the Vaya was already intended for fat tires the net result of the conversion is that the bottom bracket is lower. The crank arms are 175, so they smack stuff.

[Kirk007]

I did come across this pre-order set online...not that I'm considering it but I'm curious if anyone knows about Hunt wheels. Can you tell what rim they're using here? Maybe a Pacenti or Stans branded as their own? Or maybe they make their own rims.

https://www.huntbikewheels.com/products/hunt-650b-adventure-sport-disc-27-5-gravel-road-trail-wheelset-1579g-24deep-25wide-339-pre-order-sept-wk4

I've been looking at those as well. On-line reviews are good and there's a few post here and on Velocipede from folks that have them. SalesGuy is familiar with them. Someone said they are Kinlin rims, taiwanese hubs with upgraded bearings. reports are they are very straight and that customer service is good. As I'm sure you say they are the stock wheels on the Mason Bokeh which looks like a cool bike.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Thanks for the great thoughts here. I think I'm sold. Sparky, that Zanconato looks like boatloads of fun. Really leaning towards the custom build route at this point. I did come across this pre-order set online...not that I'm considering it but I'm curious if anyone knows about Hunt wheels. Can you tell what rim they're using here? Maybe a Pacenti or Stans branded as their own? Or maybe they make their own rims.

https://www.huntbikewheels.com/products/hunt-650b-adventure-sport-disc-27-5-gravel-road-trail-wheelset-1579g-24deep-25wide-339-pre-order-sept-wk4

FWIW, I truly believe that 23-26mm internal (can go even a little wider no problem) is better for these wider tires. I'm really loving my Crest Mk3 rims. i23, 341g (confirmed actual weight) and built up really nicely. They setup tubeless so easy as well.

The Velocity Blunt SS is a nice choice as well.

[NHAero]

To get into the right ballpark, since a 700C rim is a 622mm, and 650b is 584mm, will a 650b tire that is 38mm/2 = 19mm larger than a 700c tire yield the same outside diameter on the bike? So a 650x42 is equal to a 700x23?

[ColonelJLloyd]

Yeah, that's pretty much it. There are a few other factors at play (tire drop, pneumatic trail), but that's a good guide to let you know what sort of BB height you'll end up with.

[sparky33]

FWIW, I truly believe that 23-26mm internal (can go even a little wider no problem) is better for these wider tires. I'm really loving my Crest Mk3 rims. i23, 341g (confirmed actual weight) and built up really nicely. They setup tubeless so easy as well.



The Velocity Blunt SS is a nice choice as well.


For alloy hand built, the MK3 looks terrific. Stan’s rims have been great across the board for me, but the newer hubs on their prebuilt wheels are remarkably loud...easy to service but loud. No problem if you are lacing the rims to other hubs.
For a bit more $ you could do Nox Skyline 27.5 on DT350s hubs!?!?? I’m itching to get some.

[ergott]

Skyline 27.5 rims have been great for me. I'd done a few D2R2s on them and other various treacherous rides and they have been strong. I currently have 42mm Gravel Kings on them.

[Wayne77]

Really enjoying the discussion here...good stuff. Guys let me know if my logic here is correct:

As mentioned, I'm currently running 45mm WTB Riddler tires on this frame no issues. That said, the tire raises me up (and my center of gravity) even further than a 32-35mm cx tire does (...and of course a 32 mm knobby cross tire brings you up noticeably compared to a road bike with 25mm tires). So as much as I like the extra width and comfort, I'm not too keen on the increasing "wagon-wheel" feel I get the taller my wheels get. Its the same reason I never completely got sold on how my old 29er felt in certain situations...just not as nimble feeling and the tires seemed to wander a bit more on narrow single track that was sloped upwards on one or both sides (maybe the larger diameter of the wheels were catching the sides easier? ...or maybe its because I suck at mountain biking :-)

So my thinking is that going 650B would give me the width but perhaps bring my center of gravity back to where it was with a 35mm tire, along with the benefits of having a more nimble feel. Some comments I've read always throw out the lower position as a possible negative, but in my case it seems like a positive. Maybe thats because I'm coming from the jacked up pick up truck feel of 45mm tires on a 700c rim. So 650 B preserves the same width, but more typical cx bike center of gravity... I do get the issue with lower than normal positioning going from say a 32mm cx tire on 700c to a 38mm 650B tire. Also, the majority of of-road riding for me is competitive gravel events, and group gravel rides for fun. I don't do too many cx races, so I don't think ground clearance will be an issue

Am I missing something, or am I on the right track here? Needless to say, I've just pulled the trigger on a slightly used set of Crest MK3/Chris King R45 650 B wheels. Can't wait to try them out with something like a 47mm WTB Horizon! I rode with a few guys at NAHBS earlier this year sporting that tire on their 650B bikes...it was a fast group ride at times and they HAD no problem keeping up...A couple guys from 3T riding Exploros, a reall cool cat from No22 bikes, Boyd (can't remember for sure if he was on 650B...but I think he was), and a couple other on 650B.

[ergott]

You're on the right track. Even better, the 42mm tires I run are more like 700X23mm. Just got back from a road ride and it was wet with leaves everywhere. The wider setup with only 35psi is a lot safer due to a lot more grip. Fall riding is less sketchy and I'm still on my "road" bike.

[marciero]

Regarding lower bb goes-it sounds like it's win-win for you, as it was in my case. Most riders would like a lower bb for a gravel/all road bike than they would for cx racing, so cx bikes make good candidates for the 650b size.

[Lovetoclimb]

I say try a 650x2.1, something like the minimal tread Schwalbe or the Maxxis Refuse (650x2.0). WTB used to have the 650x2.1 Nano but it was not tubeless compatible and they quit making it opting for the 700c size only.

I personally switch between the WTB Byway for off road rando stuff and the 700x2.1 Nanos for all day gravel/light trails riding.

[sparky33]

Maybe thats because I'm coming from the jacked up pick up truck feel of 45mm tires on a 700c rim. So 650 B preserves the same width, but more typical cx bike center of gravity... I do get the issue with lower than normal positioning going from say a 32mm cx tire on 700c to a 38mm 650B tire. Also, the majority of of-road riding for me is competitive gravel events, and group gravel rides for fun. I don't do too many cx races, so I don't think ground clearance will be an issue

Am I missing something, or am I on the right track here? Needless to say, I've just pulled the trigger on a slightly used set of Crest MK3/Chris King R45 650 B wheels. Can't wait to try them out with something like a 47mm WTB Horizon!

Yeah, this makes sense. The ride height of large 700c tires feels high on a cx bike, and that is good, bad or inconsequential depending on what you are doing.
I do like how a cross bike feels when lowered a bit on 650b tires. 650bx42s feel nimble. 650bx48+ feel less nimble and have a bit of steering feedback on pavement that takes some getting used to...but these super wide 650b tires are incredible off-road.
There is no shortage of excellent 650b variety from Compass, WTB, Terrene, etc.

[Tommasini53]

I am enjoying this discussion, I am considering the same wheel conversion.

I am curious about forumites experience with 650b rim selection. What is your favorite brand. I've noticed that DT Swiss has several 650b options.

If I go this route I am going to use Campy so I'm not clear on hub selection for Campy disc. Are hub manufactures covering the Campy disk set ups yet?

[owly]

I am enjoying this discussion, I am considering the same wheel conversion.

I am curious about forumites experience with 650b rim selection. What is your favorite brand. I've noticed that DT Swiss has several 650b options.

If I go this route I am going to use Campy so I'm not clear on hub selection for Campy disc. Are hub manufactures covering the Campy disk set ups yet?

Currently using a DT Swiss XR331 rim. No complaints. Probably more suitable if the rider is lighter weight.

I do know that Carbon-ti and Tune do Campy freehub options for their disk 'mtb' hubs.

[Ttx1]

Another aluminum + 650b setup, lots of fun.

I run 650 most of the time on this bike, but swap to 700 x 32-33 for singletrack

I generally ride 650 for gravel / mixed rides and 700 for singletrack.

Very close OD, it’s great to be able to swap and experiment.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4392/35714644593_ff61d8ad51_h.jpg

[mattnes17]

Another aluminum + 650b setup, lots of fun.

I run 650 most of the time on this bike, but swap to 700 x 32-33 for singletrack

I generally ride 650 for gravel / mixed rides and 700 for singletrack.

Very close OD, it’s great to be able to swap and experiment.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4392/35714644593_ff61d8ad51_h.jpg
Why go larger wheel with skinnier tire for singletrack? better obstacle roll-over?

[mtb_frk]

Really enjoying the discussion here...good stuff. Guys let me know if my logic here is correct:

As mentioned, I'm currently running 45mm WTB Riddler tires on this frame no issues. That said, the tire raises me up (and my center of gravity) even further than a 32-35mm cx tire does (...and of course a 32 mm knobby cross tire brings you up noticeably compared to a road bike with 25mm tires). So as much as I like the extra width and comfort, I'm not too keen on the increasing "wagon-wheel" feel I get the taller my wheels get. Its the same reason I never completely got sold on how my old 29er felt in certain situations...just not as nimble feeling and the tires seemed to wander a bit more on narrow single track that was sloped upwards on one or both sides (maybe the larger diameter of the wheels were catching the sides easier? ...or maybe its because I suck at mountain biking :-)

So my thinking is that going 650B would give me the width but perhaps bring my center of gravity back to where it was with a 35mm tire, along with the benefits of having a more nimble feel. Some comments I've read always throw out the lower position as a possible negative, but in my case it seems like a positive. Maybe thats because I'm coming from the jacked up pick up truck feel of 45mm tires on a 700c rim. So 650 B preserves the same width, but more typical cx bike center of gravity... I do get the issue with lower than normal positioning going from say a 32mm cx tire on 700c to a 38mm 650B tire. Also, the majority of of-road riding for me is competitive gravel events, and group gravel rides for fun. I don't do too many cx races, so I don't think ground clearance will be an issue

Am I missing something, or am I on the right track here? Needless to say, I've just pulled the trigger on a slightly used set of Crest MK3/Chris King R45 650 B wheels. Can't wait to try them out with something like a 47mm WTB Horizon! I rode with a few guys at NAHBS earlier this year sporting that tire on their 650B bikes...it was a fast group ride at times and they HAD no problem keeping up...A couple guys from 3T riding Exploros, a reall cool cat from No22 bikes, Boyd (can't remember for sure if he was on 650B...but I think he was), and a couple other on 650B.

Did you ever try this out with your Trek?

[Wayne77]

Did you ever try this out with your Trek?

Actually I did. It was really fun - totally different feel. The only thing I didn’t like was that the steering was a tad slower at low speeds. At normal speeds not as noticeable but it did feel like it wanted a little more counterateering when diving into corners. I got used to it and had a blast. That experience inspired me enough to sell the Trek and buy a new 650B gravel bike with hydro disc, 1X, etc. I really enjoy it...especially with 47mm WTB Byway tires.

[.RJ]

So the crockett fit 650's just fine? How much clearance? 600x47 or something different?

[Wayne77]

So the crockett fit 650's just fine? How much clearance? 600x47 or something different?

Yes. Before the 650B conversion I was able to run 700c x 45mm WTB Riddlers _barely_. I never got a chance to mount the 47mm Byways once I mounted the 650B wheels but given the 45mm tires @ 700c I’m sure it would have easily fit the 650B 47mm Byways. Anyway, the tires I did try were Pari Motos...I think they were 43mm. There was PLENTY of clearance with those.

[Hilltopperny]

I'm curious about running some 650b on a couple of my bikes. If they'll fit a 700c 40mm tire what can I get away with for 650b?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[mtb_frk]

Actually I did. It was really fun - totally different feel. The only thing I didn’t like was that the steering was a tad slower at low speeds. At normal speeds not as noticeable but it did feel like it wanted a little more counterateering when diving into corners. I got used to it and had a blast. That experience inspired me enough to sell the Trek and buy a new 650B gravel bike with hydro disc, 1X, etc. I really enjoy it...especially with 47mm WTB Byway tires.

Thanks for the update.

What did you end up with? I keep looking at the hanjo exp, even though I can make it work with the crockett.

[tombtfslpk]

mtb frk, I saw your post on the other thread about 650b tires on a Crockett, and thought I would give you some input.
I also own a Crockett, and a Haanjo Carbon. I have 650 wheels on my Soma Fogcutter. I had some free time this afternoon and put the 650 wheels with 38mm tires on my Crockett. I had enough room on the drive side chainstay to slide a 5mm allen between the tire edge and the chainstay. With the 700x38 panaracer tires I normally run, I could only slide a 2mm allen wrench between the tire and chainstay. I need to add that my Crockett frame is a first generation without the adjustable axle of the newer frames. I hope this provides some information for you.
My Haanjo Carbon is one with 700 wheels. We know Diamondback equips them with 650x2.1 tires, so I have been trying 29er tires on mine. I currently have 29x1.9 Bontrager tires on it. I have a Shimano 105 front derailleur on it and that is the tightest point of clearance.

[mtb_frk]

Thanks for the info. My crockett is the first gen as well. That does help. The more I look at the Haanjo the more I am liking it.

[Wayne77]

FWIW, I had a 2014 Crocket 7 disc and I was able to run 700c 45mm WTB Riddlers front and back. There was PLENTY of clearance in the front fork. The only tight spot in the back was just inside the chainring dimple / drive side stay. I had to re-dish the rear wheel to the left about 2mm, leaving me with 2.5 - 3mm clearance in that spot. Not enough clearance for a muddy cross race, but it was plenty for gravel racing. I did the Crusher on that set up and it worked great. Other than that dimple area there was plenty of clearance everywhere else. For a CX bike the Crockett really has well above averag tire clearance.

As much as I enjoyed the 700x45mm tires on the Crockett I eventually went with a 650B setup on another bike. When you get a big fat tire like that on a 700c rim, it starts to feel a little wagon-wheelish...less precise through technical terrain where it’s all about pickng the right line through the rocky stuff. I far prefer the 650B x 47mm tire setup of my current gravel bike...the wheels just feel a little more nimble and definitely don’t deflect. That said the rims are Enve M60s, which are extremely stiff, so that helps obviously. LOVE those wheels for gravel and especially single track where your pushing your gravel rig into mtb territory. I also use 2.1” Maxxis Tread Light tires on snowy days and I like that set up as well. Definitely not as fast on asphalt and gravel, but great in the snow and carving loose berms :-)

Anyway, if anyone is considering the Crocket for an economical gravel worthy frame I say go for it. It’s a great bike.

mtb frk, I saw your post on the other thread about 650b tires on a Crockett, and thought I would give you some input.
I also own a Crockett, and a Haanjo Carbon. I have 650 wheels on my Soma Fogcutter. I had some free time this afternoon and put the 650 wheels with 38mm tires on my Crockett. I had enough room on the drive side chainstay to slide a 5mm allen between the tire edge and the chainstay. With the 700x38 panaracer tires I normally run, I could only slide a 2mm allen wrench between the tire and chainstay. I need to add that my Crockett frame is a first generation without the adjustable axle of the newer frames. I hope this provides some information for you.
My Haanjo Carbon is one with 700 wheels. We know Diamondback equips them with 650x2.1 tires, so I have been trying 29er tires on mine. I currently have 29x1.9 Bontrager tires on it. I have a Shimano 105 front derailleur on it and that is the tightest point of clearance.

[doomridesout]

Here's a question, what is, in absolute terms, the lowest BB height that one would tolerate w/175mm cranks? I ask because I just built a set of cheap 650b wheels to put on my Rock Lobster.

I was running 700x32 Gravel Kings, now running 650x1.9 Gravel Kings and feeling looooooow to the ground. I understand that in theory I shouldn't be changing ride height appreciably, but it seems to measure lower to the ground and feels lower too.

This bike was designed to be stable and has an 81mm BB drop. Would ya ride it? I intend to treat it like a road bike and pedal through corners when appropriate.

[.RJ]

If you're not riding singletrack, then no problem.

[BikeNY]

Here's a question, what is, in absolute terms, the lowest BB height that one would tolerate w/175mm cranks? I ask because I just built a set of cheap 650b wheels to put on my Rock Lobster.

I was running 700x32 Gravel Kings, now running 650x1.9 Gravel Kings and feeling looooooow to the ground. I understand that in theory I shouldn't be changing ride height appreciably, but it seems to measure lower to the ground and feels lower too.

This bike was designed to be stable and has an 81mm BB drop. Would ya ride it? I intend to treat it like a road bike and pedal through corners when appropriate.

Can you measure the BB height with both wheelsets? That will tell you what you need to know.

There is no absolute lowest tolerable BB height. It all depends on your own needs and how you plan on using it.

[weaponsgrade]

I've got a set of 650b Byways and am really liking them for mixed road/gravel riding. The frame (Rock Lobster) was originally designed as a 650b suspension-corrected hardtail. I think the bottom bracket height is about 11.5 inches. I took it on some single track that I normally do with my 29er just to see how it would handle. I did get some pedal strike in some sections that I normally clear with my 29er. I won't be doing that again. I also much prefer mtn bars rather than drops for tight twisty single track riding.

Still, I think the Byways do OK on the road and the extra volume helps with avoiding pinch flats when coming down chunky fire roads.

I've got 700x35s Kenda Small Blocks on another bike. Lately I've been enjoying the 650b Byways much more.