Ripples in carbon rim sidewall

[gone]

I've a set of Zipp 303 tubular rims. If you look at the sidewall of the rim (below the brake surface) there are several indentations/ripples in line with the spoke. The rim is true, spoke tensions are correct & equal. I don't know anyone else with a set of 303's or, for that matter, carbon rims, so I don't know if this is normal or not and thought I'd consult the collective wisdom of the forum. Is this normal or does it indicate a problem or weakness in the rim?

Thanks.

[ada@prorider.or]

its delamating due to tension

[swoop]

not to say anything negative about the good folks at zipp.... but your rims are toast.
buy yourself some campy boras or some of cees wheels or some cosmics... depending on your budget.

[Louis]

Is this a new development (in which case it doesn't sound good) or has this been there since day one?

[gone]

Is this a new development (in which case it doesn't sound good) or has this been there since day one?
Since day one.

[gone]

not to say anything negative about the good folks at zipp.... but your rims are toast.

So what does "toast" mean? It's been a number of months since I last trued them and they're still straight, spoke tension hasn't changed, they're radially true, dishing is good. I'f they're going to fail, wouldn't at least some of these things not be true or are they going to fail catastrophically at some point?

[bigdeal]

sorry, as said before, they're toast.

next time, go with Reynolds. I've had a set for a year and a half and they're picture perfect, and are daily riders. Before these I went through 2 sets of Zipps in less than 1 year (1 due to their fragility and the other due to delamination). Call Zipp, they'll 'only' charge you around $450 for a rebuild (plus shipping)....quite a deal :bike:

[Zard]

Second the Reynolds for wheels in that price range. Very light but more importantly seem to be very durable. They are coming out with a revamped line in November. www.ReynoldsComposites.com

Having said that I still like my regular mavic open pro's the best.

[Johny]

...call Zipp, they'll 'only' charge you around $450 for a rebuild (plus shipping)....quite a deal :bike:

Call Nimble (http://www.nimble.net). My two sets of Nimble Fly's are so far so good...many happy users on this forum also.
BTW, see this
"FLY no fault replacement (call to arrange)
Rebuild original FLY hub with new rim, spokes, nipples $210"

Nimble rules!

[ergott]

The rims are not toast. Contact the people who actually made the rims and get their read on the issue. Zipp will explain the problem better than anybody here (including me) and will resolve it for you. I've seen it before.

[Too Tall]

What Eric said. It is not delamination...I'm fairly sure of that...seen it before and Zipp covered the replacement no questions asked.

[Jason E]

I Third what Eric said, and second TT. Zipp is very god about standing behind their product with fast, often generous, warranty service.

ZIpp has some of the best customer service, as well as products.

[zap]

I have three Zipp rims with several thousand miles (+ one crash) on each. Each have ripples in line with spokes since day one. Ripples can be seen when looking off angle and playing with light reflections.

As others stated, contact Zipp.

But how about a photo here.

[gone]

I have three Zipp rims with several thousand miles (+ one crash) on each. Each have ripples in line with spokes since day one. Ripples can be seen when looking off angle and playing with light reflections.

As others stated, contact Zipp.

But how about a photo here.

Your whim is my will :)

[Too Tall]

Yep, I returned an 04' wheel same deal...they said that they had a small batch of hubs where drilling was not correct??? Memory is fuzzed on that however it was warrantied at zero cost.

[Zard]

YIKES!!! That's not good.

[zap]

That looks a bit worse than what I've seen.

As Ergott stated earlier, contact zipp as they will be able to explain it better than anyone here.

Keep us posted.

[gone]

I contacted Zipp and sent the pictures. I told them I was taking a trip leaving next week and wanted to know if the rims would be safe to ride. The short answer is "no", they said I should send them in. Bummer.

[ada@prorider.or]

As Ergott stated earlier, contact zipp as they will be able to explain it better than anyone here.

Keep us posted.

thank you for the compliments!

[ada@prorider.or]

The rims are not toast. Contact the people who actually made the rims and get their read on the issue. Zipp will explain the problem better than anybody here (including me) and will resolve it for you. I've seen it before.


so ergott can you explain me then what is happend to rim
as what i say delamanating becuase of the tension
and you still find this rim still save to ride
as seen the pic provided?

and that the rim is not collapse due to the tension ??
and that in can still stand the normal tension

i would not decent with wheel from a mountain
would you?

[flydhest]

in all fairness, ergott posted before seeing the photo.

[ada@prorider.or]

in all fairness, ergott posted before seeing the photo.
i too so what do you want to say with that?

[cpg]

If I understand this correctly, these wheels were like this from day one? And you didn't notice until now? Did you buy them knowing they were like that? Who sold them in that condition? I'm not picking on you but I doubt it was like that from day one or else there's some serious QC problems going on somewhere. Can I get a witness?

Curt

[swoop]

those rims will make lovely landfill. enjoy. i believe the word i used was toast.

[gone]

If I understand this correctly, these wheels were like this from day one? And you didn't notice until now? Did you buy them knowing they were like that? Who sold them in that condition? I'm not picking on you but I doubt it was like that from day one or else there's some serious QC problems going on somewhere. Can I get a witness?

Curt
No, you're right, they weren't exactly like that from day one though there were some slight ripples in the sidewalls which worsened over time. They didn't get dramatically worse overnight, the ripples deepened over time. Note also that I was *trying* to make the dent visible in the photo and deliberately took the shots with the light coming in at an angle to accentuate it. Nevertheless, it is clearly visible.

[gone]

those rims will make lovely landfill. enjoy.
Thanks much for taking pleasure in my misfortune.

i believe the word i used was toast.
Yep, you did, but I'm still uncertain exactly what "toast" means. I gather that it means "unusable" but I am still curious about what the failure mode is for a rim like this. Does it collapse? Go unrecoverably out of true? Catch fire? Has anyone actually seen a rim with indentations like this in the sidewall fail?

[cpg]

No, you're right, they weren't exactly like that from day one though there were some slight ripples in the sidewalls which worsened over time. They didn't get dramatically worse overnight, the ripples deepened over time. Note also that I was *trying* to make the dent visible in the photo and deliberately took the shots with the light coming in at an angle to accentuate it. Nevertheless, it is clearly visible.


Thanks for the clarification. I'm glad Zipp is taking care of you. It seems odd to me that it would pass QC even with slight dimpling but what do I know. Seems like things will work out for you.

Curt

[ada@prorider.or]

slight dimpling
Curt



zipp love´s dimple´s

(that was a joke)

[Serotta PETE]

ada, please do not take the note personal.

I am sure that it was meant to say you did not have the knowledge.

It was meant to say "they are ZIPP and talk to ZIPP to see what they are going to do about it." this was my take on it (and it could be incorrect)

Problem with e-mail and the "US" english language - things can take many different meanings. :no: :no: :no:

Hopefully you know what I am trying to say.

Have a good weekend. PETE

[ada@prorider.or]

i know pete i understand you
was just teasing

friday you know

[ergott]

so ergott can you explain me then what is happend to rim
as what i say delamanating becuase of the tension
and you still find this rim still save to ride
as seen the pic provided?

and that the rim is not collapse due to the tension ??
and that in can still stand the normal tension

i would not decent with wheel from a mountain
would you?

As I mentioned, the most qualified people to speak about a product is the people who made it. I do know that I have seen the above and it didn't end in casastrophic failure or any failure at that. I do not manufacture any of the things I sell. I assemble them. Whenever I'm in doubt about something, I contact the manufacturer.

Cees, you know first hand the dangers of letting people comment on a product without first-hand knowledge. There are threads a mile long that are full of people that "know better" than you. You know carbon and you might be right, but the best answer will always be from the manufacturer.

[swoop]

As I mentioned, the most qualified people to speak about a product is the people who made it.

actually, not always. if you have a carbon rim and there are changes in the surface of the rim. stop riding it no matter what the manufacturer tells you.

the manufacturer wont be there to hold your skull together when you are laying on the side of the rode cuz your wheel broke and you ignored the signs. the consumer needs to make smart decisions about stuff. there is no carbon fiber bike bit that is designed to make surface changes as a part of normal use.

zipp wheels break.. and they break more than you'd think. if you own zipps you need to respect their fragility.

carbon fiber isn't engineered to morph and wrinkle. i'm sure the good folks at zipp will agree. and if they don't he still shouldn't ride the wheels.
it aint rocket science here... it's the bike game.

it's ok that you were mistaken ergott... it's not like it matters. and yes.. talking to the manufacturer is a good idea.. checking in with a message board to have a bunch of dudes encourage you to do so is cool too. talking to one of the worlds foremost experts on carbon fiber wheel layup on that message board is golden. cees is that.

[ergott]

actually, not always. if you have a carbon rim and there are changes in the surface of the rim. stop riding it no matter what the manufacturer tells you.

I contacted Zipp and sent the pictures. I told them I was taking a trip leaving next week and wanted to know if the rims would be safe to ride. The short answer is "no", they said I should send them in. Bummer.

Let's see what Zipp has to say.

[Spicoli]

303 suk-a-chuck season is coming just in time! We have some new blood, OOHRAH!

Sorry about your new membership to the "What the heck is wrong with my Zipp's club" but what WILL happen is that bubble (Delam) will work its way to the brake surface, eventually hitting your brake pads under load, eventually causing flat tubulars from the cracking sidewall cutting through the tubs tape, then eventually clicking making a racket and become a cracked up flat spot wiggle wheel that you probably wont feel too safe on? Yadda Yadda Yadda!

Before everyone goes "that will never happen", this has been just one of my Zipp (TRUE) stories, before I gave up on them. And like I said, "just one" I've had them fail many other ways, I think every way possible, wasting many piles of cash on "warranty" items? FYI I used to be a Zipp Zellot too? Racewheels that cost you races are not that much fun, Sorry but my 2 cents and hopefully it may save you some of your 2 cents?

Broham, Jeff :confused:

[gone]

303 suk-a-chuck season is coming just in time! We have some new blood, OOHRAH!

Sorry about your new membership to the "What the heck is wrong with my Zipp's club" but what WILL happen is that bubble (Delam) will work its way to the brake surface, eventually hitting your brake pads under load, eventually causing flat tubulars from the cracking sidewall cutting through the tubs tape, then eventually clicking making a racket and become a cracked up flat spot wiggle wheel that you probably wont feel too safe on? Yadda Yadda Yadda!

Thanks much for your reply. Finally! Someone who's had it happen and knows what the actual rim failure is.

I've ordered a set of Reynolds Stratus DV-UL's. I am debating whether to send the wheel in for "warranty" service since I'm sure it's gonna cost $$$. I'll certainly argue against it but I'm guessing this is the path it's going to go down. :mad:

[Spicoli]

Unfortunatly Yes....

I want, in no particular order;

New Shimano's
Carbones
Have Heds and luv em
Bora's if I had campy, but dont.

I have heard some horror stories about the Reynolds wheels? but sounds like you are getting some good feed back on them?

Fasinated by shiny round spinny things, Jeff :banana:

[NateM]

I pulled my Zipp 303 down from the rafters and lo and behold it looks worse than your pix do.Bulges running up to and even into the brake track on the front wheel.The rim is 3 yrs old with fairly low mileage.Zipp built the wheel as a replacement for a bulging 340 rim.I will not be riding this wheel on my hilly century this Sunday nor can I afford to see if Zipp can get it right the 3rd time around.

[gone]

Unfortunatly Yes....

I want, in no particular order;

New Shimano's
Carbones
Have Heds and luv em
Bora's if I had campy, but dont.

I have heard some horror stories about the Reynolds wheels? but sounds like you are getting some good feed back on them?

Fasinated by shiny round spinny things, Jeff :banana:
I demoed a set about 6 months back for about two weeks and liked them: stiff, light and tough. The owner of the LBS I borrowed them from had a lot of positive things to say about them and positive experience with them. He's a good friend with no particular axe to grind i.e., not just hustling to sell me a pair. He's not a fan of zipps (although he admits their customer service is good), lots of folks with lots of problems.

It also comes down to what I could get in a hurry which I admit is kind of dumb but nevertheless a reality in this case. So, we'll see how it goes...

[gone]

I pulled my Zipp 303 down from the rafters and lo and behold it looks worse than your pix do.Bulges running up to and even into the brake track on the front wheel.The rim is 3 yrs old with fairly low mileage.Zipp built the wheel as a replacement for a bulging 340 rim.I will not be riding this wheel on my hilly century this Sunday nor can I afford to see if Zipp can get it right the 3rd time around.
Hmm....

I don't know how to say this.

Glad I could help :)

Wish I hadn't been able to :crap:

Sorry to hear about your wheel though. These suckers ain't cheap.

[Spicoli]

[QUOTE=ghsmith54]I demoed a set about 6 months back for about two weeks and liked them: stiff, light and tough. The owner of the LBS I borrowed them from had a lot of positive things to say about them and positive experience with them. He's a good friend with no particular axe to grind i.e., not just hustling to sell me a pair. He's not a fan of zipps (although he admits their customer service is good), lots of folks with lots of problems.

It also comes down to what I could get in a hurry which I admit is kind of dumb but nevertheless a reality in this case. So, we'll see how it goes...[/QUOTE/]


Sorry, I did not mean to put any doubt in your head about your new hoops. The issues the people I know were all with the earlier versions of the wheels aswell. Mostly breaking spokes and cassette body problems (IE; pawls not catching?) this was about 3 yrs ago too. It's like that with the first generation of anything, I think.

Zipp is a good company, but I think they crossed that line of weight/real world use (not testing)/and durability. Its like some of these 800gr frames coming out? Do you realy want that, or need that? Few guy's I race or ride with are 125lbs. and anything above that is scary on these uber light parts. I think it gets a bit more critical when frame/fork/stem/ and wheels are involved and the people making this stuff have to be a bit more careful when they design parts for these areas? They are shortchanging consumers when they say "Oh it a 1200gr wheelset" but you can only get 12 rides on it before it disintegrates? I may be wrong but companies like Shimano,Campy,Mavic,Hed,Colnago,Serotta, and a bunch more wont put out something they are NOT comfortable with and they are not easily satisfied with "acceptable results". Not just putting out some freakishly light product because they know it will sell, is kinda irresponcible? I would have much more respect for Zipp if they put out a 1600gr wheelset that you could beat the snot out of, because in the end its not going make a bit of difference between 1300 and 1600gr. unless your doing Mt. Washington or something so specific as that? More of my 2 cents, Sorry. :no:

[Big Dan]

Sure guys.....but they are so cool................ :)

[gone]

More of my 2 cents, Sorry. :no:
No need to apologize, I agree with you completely. Although the "stupid light" stuff is cool looking, I generally tend to go in favor of more durability (hence my choice of the DV rather than the KOM) and even at that, I'll only use these wheels on a limited basis where I know there are good roads (and a whole s**tload of climbing). That's what is so disappointing about the Zipps, they've not seen a lot of use and the use they have had has been relatively gentle so it is clearly a design/manufacturing issue.

[gone]

Sure guys.....but they are so cool................ :)
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that bling :cool:

[xcandrew]

Discussion on-line elsewhere this week on Zipps for those who might be interested:

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20735

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/browse_frm/thread/9c4a5ab9b29e50f0/2273334072bb259a?lnk=st&q=zipp+group%3Arec.bicycles.tech&rnum=6#2273334072bb259a

[ZippRider]

I have a set of 303's and had one wheel as you have. I took the wheel to Zipp ( I live about 10 miles from Zipp) and they replaced the rim at NO COST. I paid for new spokes which cost me about $50...They said the spoke holes were drilled off center.

ZippRider

[ada@prorider.or]

I have a set of 303's and had one wheel as you have. I took the wheel to Zipp ( I live about 10 miles from Zipp) and they replaced the rim at NO COST. I paid for new spokes which cost me about $50...They said the spoke holes were drilled off center.

ZippRider


good explantion more tension then on one side made the overload and cause of problem
(but still they made the mistake not you,so why did they let you pay for the spoke´s)
seems to me same as microsoft mistake ,s but you have to pay for there bugs

[yeehawfactor]

the shop up here has probably sold a dozen sets of 303s in the past year. every set has had something go wrong with the carbon. a couple of the guys are on their 3rd or 4th rear wheels. i have a pretty low opinion of zipp now.

[mike p]

Does anyone have bad experience with paves or clyde's?

Mike

[CalfeeFly]

A local racer bought a pair and in his first race the spokes detensioned on the rear wheel. He wasn't real happy. You might want to check around a little more to see if this was a fluke or an indication that maybe their quality control is suspect.