OT College Sports How would you structure them?

[jlyon]

Money seems to infused and corrupting at many different levels of sports.

Many people believe Universities are exploiting young athletes.

So with the fact that these sports are not going away if you could design a new system what would it look like and how would the students and administrators be treated in your system?

I will go first but I really have not spent much time thinking it all the way through.

No Scholarships at all. Athletes will be more like pros in that they are paid a hourly wage based on 40 hours a week for 50 of the 52 weeks a year. They then are expected to pay the rack rates to universities for room board and tuition.

My first thought would be the hourly wage would be set the same for all, but then maybe a sharing % would be better. Make it more like the pros and have production bonuses?

Seems like recruiting would need to change drastically also but I have no idea on how.

[54ny77]

get rid of it entirely, create a farm system just like minor league baseball where guys get paid to play the sport they want to play.

of course, that'll never happen.

[oldpotatoe]

Money seems to infused and corrupting at many different levels of sports.

Many people believe Universities are exploiting young athletes.

So with the fact that these sports are not going away if you could design a new system what would it look like and how would the students and administrators be treated in your system?

I will go first but I really have not spent much time thinking it all the way through.

No Scholarships at all. Athletes will be more like pros in that they are paid a hourly wage based on 40 hours a week for 50 of the 52 weeks a year. They then are expected to pay the rack rates to universities for room board and tuition.

My first thought would be the hourly wage would be set the same for all, but then maybe a sharing % would be better. Make it more like the pros and have production bonuses?

Seems like recruiting would need to change drastically also but I have no idea on how.

Have them 'major' in the sport they are in..create a 'minor league' type system this way for football and basketball. They are 'paid' already..ever see the cars some of the college football and basketball athlete's drive?

[MattTuck]

So many parts of the entire system could be reformed.

If you're looking to make changes around the margins, things like giving students the ability to collect royalties from jersey sales or the use of their likeness in advertising and video games.

For a more ambitious reform, I'd take a serious look at 1 of 2 things. 1. trying to make college sports more amateur. Probably include a 1 or 2 year delay from playing college sports before they could play professionally. Higher academic standards. some sort of caps on coach pay, and broadcast rights. This is sort of against my general philosophy that markets should be allowed to work, and this approach puts a lot of restrictions on that. But I think it should be considered.

The second approach would be to fairly compensate players for the benefit they provide. This approach is easier to stomach from a equity perspective, but harder to wrap your head around if you believe college sports should be amateur. Though, it is hard to see how the sports could be considered amateur when the coaches get paid so much. If it was truly amateur, the coaches should be chemistry professors that volunteer their time, just like in high school.

[FlashUNC]

Simple: pay the players.

[harlond]

Step one is to unionize the players (in a national bargaining unit preferably).

[PepeM]

I guess by 'sports' we mean football and basketball.

Just stop pretending they are 'college' sports. Make them professional. U23 if you want to keep some sort of authenticity and have them as a feeder to the NFL and NBA. Players get paid and don't need to pretend to be students (they can study if they want.) They can still be called the University of Whatever team, but no need to keep pretending these are 'student athletes.'

[54ny77]

Come on, that's an old STS. Wheels are probably worth more than the car.

The real big money question is how is that upstanding young scholar-athlete going to have the financial wherewithal for repairing the Northstar motor when things go horribly wrong?

;)

Have them 'major' in the sport they are in..create a 'minor league' type system this way for football and basketball. They are 'paid' already..ever see the cars some of the college football and basketball athlete's drive?

[PepeM]

In Mexico, there are three or four soccer teams playing in the top divisions that are affiliated to universities. They abide by the exact same rules as other teams, yet still serve as publicity for the institutions. US universities could do the same, except that there are enough teams to have they own league, so they can do just that.

[MattTuck]

I guess by 'sports' we mean football and basketball.

Just stop pretending they are 'college' sports. Make them professional. U23 if you want to keep some sort of authenticity and have them as a feeder to the NFL and NBA. Players get paid and don't need to pretend to be students (they can study if they want.) They can still be called the University of Whatever team, but no need to keep pretending these are 'student athletes.'

This is where it gets so incredibly tangled. Because of the schools' non-profit status, they run these 'sports businesses' essentially tax free. That is a huge revenue stream for some schools, and they'll fight bitterly to hang on to it.

Stripping the sports away from the schools (so that they essentially just become sponsors) threatens alumni giving and a bunch of other things as well. How many athletes give a hoot about the sponsor of the team they played on 3 years ago?

So many entrenched interests. Going to be really interesting to see how it plays out.

[FlashUNC]

This is where it gets so incredibly tangled. Because of the schools' non-profit status, they run these 'sports businesses' essentially tax free. That is a huge revenue stream for some schools, and they'll fight bitterly to hang on to it.

Stripping the sports away from the schools (so that they essentially just become sponsors) threatens alumni giving and a bunch of other things as well. How many athletes give a hoot about the sponsor of the team they played on 3 years ago?

So many entrenched interests. Going to be really interesting to see how it plays out.

Universities seemed to survive just fine before college sports became big-time business, and much of the money from that alumni giving tends to just go right back into the athletic programs. At UNC -- my alma mater -- you're required to donate at a certain level to get access to buy basketball tickets. But the only donations that count towards you qualifying for access are athletic booster donations, not to, say, the University chemistry department.

And then there's the times the athletic department gets in over their head thanks to stupid decision making, and it becomes a further suck on the actual university resources: https://deadspin.com/the-desperate-future-of-cal-athletics-is-here-1797944572

Time to pay players, or force the pro leagues to create their own professional development feeder leagues. This "free" development pipeline they have doesn't exist anywhere else in pro sports globally.

[brownhound]

All by D3 rules: no scholarships.

If you're a student athlete, that's great, but let them be a student first. Plow whatever scholarship funds into funding at need kids.

That way, you could retain the culture of college athletics. But for kids who don't want/don't need to be in school, let them find semi-pro minor leagues.

[PepeM]

This is where it gets so incredibly tangled. Because of the schools' non-profit status, they run these 'sports businesses' essentially tax free. That is a huge revenue stream for some schools, and they'll fight bitterly to hang on to it.

True. All the more reason to professionalize it. No reason why they should be tax free.

Stripping the sports away from the schools (so that they essentially just become sponsors) threatens alumni giving and a bunch of other things as well. How many athletes give a hoot about the sponsor of the team they played on 3 years ago?

That could be an issue, but then that's what happens when you let charity become a key component of education.

So many entrenched interests. Going to be really interesting to see how it plays out.

My guess is that it will keep going as is for a while, until the players demand to be paid, at which point they will get paid*. Apart from that I doubt much will change. With universities behaving more and more like corporations, they will do whatever it takes to maximize their profit, education be damned.

*Regarding pay, no reason not to pay them, really, beyond the aura of amateurism. Students get paid for work done in the lab or cafeteria after all.

[ojingoh]

My guess is that it will keep going as is for a while, until the players demand to be paid, at which point they will get paid*. Apart from that I doubt much will change. With universities behaving more and more like corporations, they will do whatever it takes to maximize their profit, education be damned.

*Regarding pay, no reason not to pay them, really, beyond the aura of amateurism. Students get paid for work done in the lab or cafeteria after all.

Problem then becomes how much to pay the players, and if a University team can pay more wouldn't it be in the player's best interest to 'attend' that University's team? Would we need a draft for the best players? If you say there's a draft, does that mean that if you refuse the draft you're not able to play for a team? Is than then a monopoly?

[45K10]

Money maker for the schools, although I wonder what will happen to football in the future in regard to the CTE findings. They should pay the players and be done with it but that isn't going to happen. Too many hands on the pie already. Seems like the Universities are so Admin heavy these days not to mention the coaches crazy salaries.

Anyway, in another 20-30 years the big sport on campus will be online gaming. some schools are already giving scholarships for it. https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/college-game-plan/college-scholarships-videos-games-it-s-happening-n773996

[zap]

Are we including field hockey, cycling, curling, etc.

Equal pay?

[Bradford]

I played D1 college golf. Not well, and not for a powerhouse, but I did live through college sports. I certainly wasn't on the caliber of a Hobey Baker or Heisman finalist, and only won a total of 1 tournament in 4 years, but I did at least participate.

I tell anyone who will listen that playing college sports is a mistake unless you have a chance to go pro or play in the Olympics. There are a lot more athletic or need-based scholarships available. None of the hours I spent on the golf course have helped me in my life after college but all of the hours I spend studying or in class have made a difference. I sure loved playing everyday on a beautiful golf course, but my time would have been better spent in any number of ways.

So, based on that, I would design college sports to have:

1) No scholarships
2) No planes: if you can't drive to a match it is too far
3) No weekday travel. Athletes shouldn't miss class for sports

Or, in other words, make varsity look like club sports.

There is no logical reason for big-time college sports to exist if you believe that the purpose of college is to get an education. Let the NFL and NBA develop minor league teams and let colleges return to having amateur athletes who are students first and are athletes when they have time.

[PepeM]

I agree in principle, but I just don't see how you abandon 'big time' sports. Should those massive stadiums just be left to rot? I guess we could turn them into science centers or maybe use them for cyclocross.

[bicycletricycle]

No scholarships.

Cap on sports staff pay (coaches, etc), coaches are the highest paid public employees in some states.

Cap on money spent on teams.

Paying students for sports is silly, if they want to be professional athletes become professional athletes, I do not think the university should be that involved in sport, especially not as a profit center.

Make sports universities that train you in sports if that is what you want to do.

[Jaybee]

I played D1 college golf. Not well, and not for a powerhouse, but I did live through college sports. I certainly wasn't on the caliber of a Hobey Baker or Heisman finalist, and only won a total of 1 tournament in 4 years, but I did at least participate.

I tell anyone who will listen that playing college sports is a mistake unless you have a chance to go pro or play in the Olympics. There are a lot more athletic or need-based scholarships available. None of the hours I spent on the golf course have helped me in my life after college but all of the hours I spend studying or in class have made a difference. I sure loved playing everyday on a beautiful golf course, but my time would have been better spent in any number of ways.

So, based on that, I would design college sports to have:

1) No scholarships
2) No planes: if you can't drive to a match it is too far
3) No weekday travel. Athletes shouldn't miss class for sports

Or, in other words, make varsity look like club sports.

There is no logical reason for big-time college sports to exist if you believe that the purpose of college is to get an education. Let the NFL and NBA develop minor league teams and let colleges return to having amateur athletes who are students first and are athletes when they have time.

I was a D1 XC runner, and I cosign this post. The only thing of value I really got out of my time as an athlete was the friends I still talk to. And I guess the injured knee that led me to cycling.

[EDS]

I played D1 college golf. Not well, and not for a powerhouse, but I did live through college sports. I certainly wasn't on the caliber of a Hobey Baker or Heisman finalist, and only won a total of 1 tournament in 4 years, but I did at least participate.

I tell anyone who will listen that playing college sports is a mistake unless you have a chance to go pro or play in the Olympics. There are a lot more athletic or need-based scholarships available. None of the hours I spent on the golf course have helped me in my life after college but all of the hours I spend studying or in class have made a difference. I sure loved playing everyday on a beautiful golf course, but my time would have been better spent in any number of ways.

So, based on that, I would design college sports to have:

1) No scholarships
2) No planes: if you can't drive to a match it is too far
3) No weekday travel. Athletes shouldn't miss class for sports

Or, in other words, make varsity look like club sports.

There is no logical reason for big-time college sports to exist if you believe that the purpose of college is to get an education. Let the NFL and NBA develop minor league teams and let colleges return to having amateur athletes who are students first and are athletes when they have time.

I think there is value in intercollegiate athletics from the athletes perspective. I learned a great deal about myself and learned important life lessons: how to manage my time given multiple commitments on my time; the importance of exercise to my mental health and as an outlet to other stresses; how to deal with failure and achievement (on both a personal and group level); and the value of sleep.

Obviously the academics are more important, but sports, extra curricular activities and social interactions also help shape the person you are. I don't think that can be disregarded.

[BobC]

I played D1 college golf. Not well, and not for a powerhouse, but I did live through college sports. I certainly wasn't on the caliber of a Hobey Baker or Heisman finalist, and only won a total of 1 tournament in 4 years, but I did at least participate.

I tell anyone who will listen that playing college sports is a mistake unless you have a chance to go pro or play in the Olympics. There are a lot more athletic or need-based scholarships available. None of the hours I spent on the golf course have helped me in my life after college but all of the hours I spend studying or in class have made a difference. I sure loved playing everyday on a beautiful golf course, but my time would have been better spent in any number of ways.

So, based on that, I would design college sports to have:

1) No scholarships
2) No planes: if you can't drive to a match it is too far
3) No weekday travel. Athletes shouldn't miss class for sports

Or, in other words, make varsity look like club sports.

There is no logical reason for big-time college sports to exist if you believe that the purpose of college is to get an education. Let the NFL and NBA develop minor league teams and let colleges return to having amateur athletes who are students first and are athletes when they have time.

As a former college water polo player & swimmer, I agree with most of this. But I do not think my playing was a waste for a couple reasons:
1. I got to play in NCAAs, which was a fantastic experience and one I won't forget. It was cool playing against then current & soon-to-be Olympians. Just to play against them was very memorable.
2. As a parent, the experience I gleaned from being a college athlete gives me a great perspective on youth athletics vs academics. Simply put, I am much more laid back about my kids & sports (neither are going to be college athletes but both will be super college students). It also made me a much better youth coach -- again giving me the big picture & the right perspective on stuff like that.

Cheers, Bob

[54ny77]

IMG in Bradenton, FL is exactly that. Except, it's high school. :eek:



Make sports universities that train you in sports if that is what you want to do.

[peanutgallery]

Defer it somehow, but like a $100k per year after they graduate or something along that line. 3rd string bench warmer to the stars, same amount, no matter the school. If the school can't do it, club sport

For the big programs (Football/Mens Basketball in the Power 5 conferences) it definitely seems like this plantation mentality. It benefits the coaches and enablers way more than it does those risking life and limb for no $ and basically a year to year contract. Sadly the large majority never turn pro. They're being exploited for their athletic talent at the cost of everything else in their lives and not many question it. If you do, you are just being negative. Meanwhile the "head ball coach" walks on water in a certain geographic area and makes $ hand over fist (coming and going) as long as he's moderately successful. Nothing new and has been going on for years but the TV/marketing rights have taken the issue to a ridiculous level

If the Feds were to peel back the layers on someone like Bill Self, Nick Saban, John Calipari or any other coach that has created a sort of cult of personality at an academic institution the tangled web of crazy would probably be worse than you could ever imagine. Heck, someone keeps hiring Bobby Petrino

[dustyrider]

get rid of it entirely, create a farm system just like minor league baseball where guys get paid to play the sport they want to play.

of course, that'll never happen.

My thoughts exactly! Too bad it seems to work everywhere else...I always found it quite insulting when I found out that the cost of a single away game for my state college’s football team cost more than my entire college education. Now that I’m an educator, it sickens me even more knowing that sports take priority over the academic institution. Especially ones that cause brain damage...

[berserk87]

Simple: pay the players.

Isn't that already happening? But seriously, you can't pay them enough to afford a car, or turn away $100k from a shoe company. There's so much cash at stake that the corruption will always be there. It also disregards the scholarship money that they are receiving to pay for school. And I realize that many athletes are not there for the schooling.

Here's my beef with colleges and universities - supposed institutes of higher learning -

My daughter, now a HS senior, was dating a young man, also a senior, until a few weeks ago (for over 2 years). He is a basketball player, standing 6'11". Very fine young man - courteous, nice to my family, has manners. He has been inundated with scholarship offers for basketball. This is fair enough, I suppose, given the fact that he is tall and athletic and plays the sport.

He's directionless in terms of what he wants to study, and what he wants to be when he grows up - again, fair enough, because I was that way at his age. A lot of us were.

Last year he received a call from the one of the military service academies, asking if he would play there if he they could get him in. He said no. At the same time, my son was trying to get into a service academy, as a regular student. To the boyfriend's credit, he never mentioned it to my son. He saw how hard my son was working to get into an academy, whereas he got interest just because he was tall. He felt sheepish about it.

My son did get accepted to the US Naval Academy and to West Point (he chose the USNA and is currently a plebe there). My daughter is currently going through the college search, and we are struggling to figure out how to pay for it. We are well off enough not to qualify for aid, but too poor to pay for most colleges (the middle class dilemma).

She wants to major in chemistry and then go on to medical school afterward. She's extremely motivated. She has a stellar GPA, works her butt off, and has good test scores. She works and volunteers in the community and has a nice resume.

None of these "institutes of higher learning" are beating down her door to pay for her schooling. Everyone says that "she'll get some type of aid/scholarship money". I don't doubt that, but it is a very competitive struggle.

So that's what sucks to me about the system. College football teams have so many different helmet combinations that it's hard to remember what the original helmets looked like. When my brother was on staff at U of Florida, I estimated that there was at least $350,000 invested (by someone) in helmets alone.

Kids who have no more interest in college than the man on the moon have offers thrown at them, and the kids that are just regular students have to scrap. The regular students, and the education thereof, are the reason (on the surface) that the colleges exist.

And to say that sports bring so much money to the universities rings hollow. It has not stopped the escalating price of college. Only health care insurance has increased more that college costs in my lifetime.

This could lead into a longer rant about boosters and donors, how very few major college programs claim to be pulling in a profit, and such. This is a complicated problem and many of the solutions discussed in this thread, including paying the athletes, are worth discussion (despite my snarky opinion).

[Louis]

1) Get schools out of the business of being a minor-league system for pro sports.

2) Get schools back into the business of education.

[jlwdm]

I think college sports have value to students. You also have to recognize that very few college athletes become professionals. About 2% of college football players.

I think scholarships are fine and there should be some pay.

Jeff

[Ralph]

I think every kid who is in sports at any college should first have to get admitted, just like any other kid. With nothing on their application that says they are good at sports. Then after they are admitted....they can go by the athletic dept and see if they can get on a team. See if they are good enough to good some school help.

When my son's went to U of Fl.....I was so pissed about the special rules for the foot ball players....their living quarters, where they got to park, the gym for the college teams to train in, etc. It's like they were a elite class of people.

I don't care that the foot ball program pays for a lot pf other programs. I just didn't like the emphasis on sports. Why not same for the top math major, or medical student? My son's had to have near perfect SAT scores to get in, some athletes had to have tutors for basic classes (I realize this is not so at all schools).

[MattTuck]

Bradford, good thoughts.

I think there is a national audience for college basketball and football at the D1 level. Not sure about other sports. Hockey seems to pack the college arenas where I've been, but not sure if that is true at other schools.

However, hockey has a true minor league system. So, not sure if that is a great comparison.

Forcing athletics (atleast big business athletics) out of the school may actually do more harm to the students than keeping them in the school and paying them. How many minor league baseball players are nationally known? And how many minor league baseball players are earning lots of money? Answer: not many.

Keeping the schools in the picture (with their existing brand equity and fan bases) may be the best way to keep the pie large and then worry about fairly allocating it.

I suspect that just separating it could lead to much lower revenues, and thus less to share with the players.

Having a collective bargaining agreement could be part of the solution, with revenue sharing for the students. Rights to transfer between schools. Rights to certain endorsements. etc. Perhaps, to maintain some semblance of educational value, you have the athletes do an intensive 2 year associates degree before they can play to "represent" the school.

Yes, in a perfect world schools would just do research and teach. But that is not really the world we're in. Perhaps it is the future of higher education. Bare bones amenities, strong focus on course work, more spartan facilities and less focus on social and community elements. But now we're getting into all sorts of things that have roots much deeper than just sports.

[fa63]

1) Get schools out of the business of being a minor-league system for pro sports.

2) Get schools back into the business of education.

Amen.

Growing up in Turkey, I played basketball between ages 10 and 15 for the development division of a professional team (fun fact: I have played against Zaza Pachulia, currently with the Golden State Warriors). They would even give us a little pocket money for food/travel etc. Which I later found out would have disqualified me from being able to play college basketball here (not that I really could anyways).

Anyways, with that system if you are good enough, you become a professional and start making real money. If not, you get shown the door around age 16 so you can at least focus on school again and prepare for the college entrance exam. If you get into college, there is no serious collegiate athletics; you can still play but it is basically for fun.

That said, I don't expect anything to change any time soon; too much money involved in NCAA.

[PacNW2Ford]

Little acknowledged fact: There are only 450 NBA players in the world, only 60 players get drafted each year. NCAA basketball is hardly a "minor league" for the NBA.

[berserk87]

Little acknowledged fact: There are only 450 NBA players in the world, only 60 players get drafted each year. NCAA basketball is hardly a "minor league" for the NBA.

You are correct, but oddly, it's being perceived as one by the NBA. And a disproportionate number of college players think that they will be one of the lucky few to hit the big time. There is a disconnect between perception and reality.

[Louis]

Little acknowledged fact: There are only 450 NBA players in the world, only 60 players get drafted each year. NCAA basketball is hardly a "minor league" for the NBA.

The vast majority of NBA play college basketball for at least one year. Just because very few of the college players make it to the NBA doesn't mean that college isn't a conduit for them. It's just a AAA league with a very high wash-out rate.

[verticaldoug]

No scholarships.

Cap on sports staff pay (coaches, etc), coaches are the highest paid public employees in some states.



39 of the 50 states, the highest paid pub employee is a coach. But it is much worse than that. In a state like Alabama, the next highest paid public employee is probably the assistant football coach. And after him, another assistant coach.

The only school I know of where the athletic department puts some money back into the general fund is Notre Dame. All the other schools, the athletic department will spend everything or run a deficit.

[Mark McM]

39 of the 50 states, the highest paid pub employee is a coach. But it is much worse than that. In a state like Alabama, the next highest paid public employee is probably the assistant football coach. And after him, another assistant coach.

The only school I know of where the athletic department puts some money back into the general fund is Notre Dame. All the other schools, the athletic department will spend everything or run a deficit.

At my college (the University of Rhode Island), the athletic department was caught up in scandal in which scholarships intended for other activities was diverted to the football team. It was bad enough that students received scholarships for track, but only played football and never competed on the track team; but it really got out of hand when scholarship money intended for the music students was diverted to the football team (for students who never played or sung a note).

[jr59]

No tv or shoe type deals at all in any way! In other words, no outside big money sponcers.

Second is make every Athlete qualify to enroll at said school. It it takes 1400SAT or 25 ACT so be it. Then only have schools compete with like schools.

It would be difficult to pay players because of title 9, which baasicly says if you pay one, you pay all. How much for the female badminton team?

[Mark McM]

No tv or shoe type deals at all in any way! In other words, no outside big money sponcers.

NCAA rules don't allow their athletes to be paid for endorsements. (This preserves all the sponsorship monies for the NCAA and the schools!).

Second is make every Athlete qualify to enroll at said school. It it takes 1400SAT or 25 ACT so be it. Then only have schools compete with like schools.

Schools typically don't have rigid acceptance requirements. NCAA has specific rules regarding academic requirements for students to remain eligible(minimum course load, minimum GPA), but the schools have found ways to skirt these rules.

It would be difficult to pay players because of title 9, which baasicly says if you pay one, you pay all. How much for the female badminton team?

That's not what Title 9 says. Title 9 says that all students at schools that receive federal funding must be given the same educational opportunities (sports wants the original focus of Title 9, and equal athletic opportunity is just a small byproduct of Title 9). Since pay-for-play is not an educational opportunity, it is likely not covered by Title 9.

[FlashUNC]

The NCAA tournament, in TV rights alone, is worth $1 billion annually.

And players see none of that revenue? See no revenue from jerseys sold in student stores and elsewhere with their number on it?

And until Shabazz Napier complained after the national title game just a couple years ago, couldn't even get enough food to eat at their respective universities.

Pay the players. Heck, $100k for a 5-star recruit? That's a bargain.

https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2016/4/12/11415764/ncaa-tournament-tv-broadcast-rights-money-payout-cbs-turner

[Rada]

Paying players won't solve the rampant corruption in big time college sports.

[FlashUNC]

Paying players won't solve the rampant corruption in big time college sports.

Not entirely, but its the simplest, quickest fix that would have enormous impact. It brings these deals out of this shadow network of agents, assistant coaches, shoe companies, and brokers.

What's better, Louisville paying a guy $150k under the table to come play? Or $150k as a signing bonus for joining the team?

[Rada]

Not entirely, but its the simplest, quickest fix that would have enormous impact. It brings these deals out of this shadow network of agents, assistant coaches, shoe companies, and brokers.

What's better, Louisville paying a guy $150k under the table to come play? Or $150k as a signing bonus for joining the team?

People are greedy. If you think this stops under the table payments you're fooling yourself.

[berserk87]

39 of the 50 states, the highest paid pub employee is a coach. But it is much worse than that. In a state like Alabama, the next highest paid public employee is probably the assistant football coach. And after him, another assistant coach.

The only school I know of where the athletic department puts some money back into the general fund is Notre Dame. All the other schools, the athletic department will spend everything or run a deficit.

Where did you find the info on ND? I had a long discussion with my dad and he was assuming that all schools are funneling money from athletics back into the academic and operations side. I was not so sure.

[BdaGhisallo]

People are greedy. If you think this stops under the table payments you're fooling yourself.


If you allow everything to be out in the open without penalty, why would there still be a need for under the table payments, at least to players?

[FlashUNC]

People are greedy. If you think this stops under the table payments you're fooling yourself.

The Minnesota Timberwolves tried that in the NBA once. Went so badly that nobody's even attempted anything like it since.

The self-policing mechanism, when everyone is paying out in the open, would be extremely strong. Look at how coaches are more than willing to rat one another out now about under-the-table payments. What will happen when its out in the open? Only a stronger incentive.

And this really shows college sports for what it is, only about 5-10 teams in any given sport have the resources to be truly competitive. The rest are just tomato cans to pad the schedule.

[Mark McM]

Where did you find the info on ND? I had a long discussion with my dad and he was assuming that all schools are funneling money from athletics back into the academic and operations side. I was not so sure.

That's likely the story that many schools would like you believe, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily true.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/sports/wp/2015/11/23/running-up-the-bills/?utm_term=.312415daa2bb


Big-time college sports departments are making more money than ever before, thanks to skyrocketing television contracts, endorsement and licensing deals, and big-spending donors. But many departments also are losing more money than ever, as athletic directors choose to outspend rising income to compete in an arms race that is costing many of the nation’s largest publicly funded universities and students millions of dollars.

[jmoore]

I don't care that the foot ball program pays for a lot pf other programs. I just didn't like the emphasis on sports. Why not same for the top math major, or medical student? My son's had to have near perfect SAT scores to get in, some athletes had to have tutors for basic classes (I realize this is not so at all schools).

When the top math major and medical student can put 80,000 paying customer in the stands 10 Saturdays a year, the math professor will be paid like the football coach. The head football coach is essentially the CEO of a $500mm/year company at many schools.

I'm not saying this is right, but that's reality.

[Ti Designs]

Or, in other words, make varsity look like club sports.



As the coach of a club sport (Harvard cycling) I would be all for that, but it's like telling the NFL to downsize a playoff game to an after work touch football game...

I'm all for club sports in schools, it's where kids learn sports and the life lessons that go along with them. Take away the money and what's left is a clean sport (or as clean as cycling can get - people dope for club rides). If cycling went varsity (there is talk of doing just that), the sport would change overnight. In September I get new riders, most don't know the first thing about riding or racing, they don't fit on their bikes... I get to spend the next few month teaching them the sport, while also teaching them how to dress for winter riding, and how to stay upright on ice. These are Harvard students... If it goes varsity they don't care about the kids who want to learn about the sport, they look to the outside world to buy talent, and I get replaced by some high dollar coach who has a doping program.

I don't get paid to coach the Harvard cycling team. My coach, John Allis coached the team for 30 years unpaid. In that time he also coached me for 25 years. I don't think anything needs to change.

[54ny77]

Helluva accomplishment. Congrats to him and to you for supporting the decision. :cool: :hello:


My son did get accepted to the US Naval Academy and to West Point (he chose the USNA and is currently a plebe there).

[berserk87]

Helluva accomplishment. Congrats to him and to you for supporting the decision. :cool: :hello:

Thanks partner. He's enjoying it but it's not easy.

[jr59]

NCAA rules don't allow their athletes to be paid for endorsements. (This preserves all the sponsorship monies for the NCAA and the schools!).

Really I would have never known that, I THOUGHT this is asking for ways to change things.



Schools typically don't have rigid acceptance requirements. NCAA has specific rules regarding academic requirements for students to remain eligible(minimum course load, minimum GPA), but the schools have found ways to skirt these rules.

Again REALLY!!! This is the problem with my idea. The idea is to make athletes meet the same requirements that every student meets.



That's not what Title 9 says. Title 9 says that all students at schools that receive federal funding must be given the same educational opportunities (sports wants the original focus of Title 9, and equal athletic opportunity is just a small byproduct of Title 9). Since pay-for-play is not an educational opportunity, it is likely not covered by Title 9.

REALLY, this is some of what it says. If you have X numbers of men’s sports, they need to have The same # of women’s sports. Many legal minds have already been on record of saying that you would need to pay all in all sports! But I’m sure you already knew that.

Sorry for your misunderstanding of my comment

[oldpotatoe]

Lots snipped

[QUOTE]My son did get accepted to the US Naval Academy and to West Point (he chose the USNA and is currently a plebe there). My daughter is currently going through the college search, and we are struggling to figure out how to pay for it. We are well off enough not to qualify for aid, but too poor to pay for most colleges (the middle class dilemma).

She wants to major in chemistry and then go on to medical school afterward. She's extremely motivated. She has a stellar GPA, works her butt off, and has good test scores. She works and volunteers in the community and has a nice resume.

He'll be happier at the USNA and hopefully the USN:)

There are programs in the military that will send her to Med school for a commitment post MD...

Has she also considered one of the Military academies or ROTC?

[verticaldoug]

Where did you find the info on ND? I had a long discussion with my dad and he was assuming that all schools are funneling money from athletics back into the academic and operations side. I was not so sure.


Sorry for the late response,

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/

I should qualify my data since it was from 2014. I was looking at title9 data for college sports regarding scholarships.

At the time, most programs, even the large ones appeared to be losing money. However, now with the explosion of TV FB revenue, many of the big programs are in the black. They do not stipulate where the profit goes. Also, it is a question whether the entire athletic department facilities are paid for out of the athletic budget.

This is a great data base just to see the monster FB is compared to all other sports.

[echappist]

In Mexico, there are three or four soccer teams playing in the top divisions that are affiliated to universities. They abide by the exact same rules as other teams, yet still serve as publicity for the institutions. US universities could do the same, except that there are enough teams to have they own league, so they can do just that.

This is way too sensible a suggestion. Similarly, the top division in Chile have teams affiliated with colleges

[echappist]

Amen.

Growing up in Turkey, I played basketball between ages 10 and 15 for the development division of a professional team (fun fact: I have played against Zaza Pachulia, currently with the Golden State Warriors). They would even give us a little pocket money for food/travel etc. Which I later found out would have disqualified me from being able to play college basketball here (not that I really could anyways).


did this happen to be one of the more famous clubs? Like Fenerbahçse, Besiktas, etc?


-------------------------------------------------
Even when we are talking about sports such as track, swimming, etc. (the non revenue generating sports), there are quite a few who probably shouldn't have been there in the first place. I know b/c the athletics department at Columbia had a tutoring program, and I tutored a few kids. A few were bright, more than half were lost. Normal students could only dream of the additional help that the athletes were receiving.

[fa63]

did this happen to be one of the more famous clubs? Like Fenerbahçse, Besiktas, etc?


I lived in Izmir, and played for Karsiyaka, which is the most well known team in that city. Besiktas, Fenerbahce, Galatasaray, those are the big Istanbul clubs.

Zaza used to play for the development team of Ulkerspor, which was one of the best teams in the league at the time. When we were 15 and played against him in a tournament, we thought they were lying about his age; he was just so much bigger than anyone else but also fast.

[Louis]

When we were 15 and played against him in a tournament, we thought they were lying about his age; he was just so much bigger than anyone else but also fast.

You really learn to appreciate how good/fast/big/whatever the pros are when you play or ride with the local guys who are good, but you know are way below the pros, and they kick your @ss even with one hand tied behind their back.

[wc1934]

Are we including field hockey, cycling, curling, etc.

Equal pay?

Women too?

[buddybikes]

Doesn't matter what we think, there is way too much money and much of the country (fans) don't care. Why change what isn't (pun) broke?

[Louis]

Doesn't matter what we think, there is way too much money and much of the country (fans) don't care. Why change what isn't (pun) broke?

I bet 5 years from now big-time college sports & the NCAA will be significantly different, compared to how they work today.

[BobC]

I suspect it will not change. College athletics is the "advertising" part of a college. Colleges make a conscious effort toward that. It is a pretty straight forward blueprint.

For example, what do you associate with "Notre Dame, "Duke" or "Gonzaga" (and I mean absolutely no offense to any alumni)? First thought probably not the academics (though their academics are very good). It is their sports programs.

The trap becomes when the sports overshadows the academics. Like Louisville at this particular moment.