Cross racing in the US

[oldpotatoe]

World Cup race in Waterloo, WI, 24th of this month, all the big boys there...too hot, too early? Not many spectators...if in Europe, it would be packed..here, maybe 500-600 people watching...is cross waning in the US already? Maybe to early in the 'season'...

[Gummee]

The biggest thing you have to keep in mind when watching US CX: we have a participation model, not an entertainment model.

There are an absolute crap-ton more races/day here (FWI can tell) than EUR.

There were 70 of us in the Olde Phartes B category last Sun. Charm City there'll probably be 125/category from 4s thru the Olde Phartes and into the 3/4s aka Killer B's

I know *I'd* rather go race than go watch.

YMMV

M

[GregL]

Cross racing is a niche within a niche within a niche sport. As much as we, bike racing enthusiasts, enjoy the sport, it's not even a blip on the radar of typical American sports fans. Sunday afternoon in the fall? America is too busy watching football to care about anything else.

Greg

[GregL]

And here's a timely Velonews article on the current state of pro cyclocross in this country:

http://www.velonews.com/2017/09/from-the-mag/ryan-trebon-may-be-key-to-the-future-of-u-s-cross_449264

Greg

[Spaghetti Legs]

Good question. If you asked me to pick a place to expect a good turnout for a bike race, Waterloo would be on the list. I looked at the World Cup calendar and there are a lot of US races, but we Americans are hampered but the geographic spread of our country. At the height of the US racing season, odds are you'll get one shot to see a race within a couple of hours of where you live as opposed to the Low Countries. Odds of drawing a casual bike fan or curious neophyte to a US race I expect would be lower.

I wonder what a typical World Cup race crowd would look like in other places in Europe, say Italy.

[Dave B]

We also don't have top level racers that finish on the podium as often as the euros. Women, yes for sure and their races are a blast to watch. With the men we don't have the level of success or maybe talent, I don't know as much as we see at the highest level. When Lance was winning the Tour over and over it became something Americans wanted to see and gloat about. Sponsors (and BIG ones) wanted in.

You put that same success in cross and it will grow.


Plus think about the typical venue for the big three in America. MLB, NBA, NFL has stadiums where you sit, drink, eat, rarely stand up much.

Cross is literally he opposite of that. I think it is fascinating to watch cross races, but I also race, I suck at it, but I do actually line up and try not to die during the race.

America wants what it wants. Remember you also have social media personalities calling cyclists target practice for their drive to work. So, I would say that we don't see bikes as something other than what kids ride to play.

just thoughts

[fignon's barber]

World Cup race in Waterloo, WI, 24th of this month, all the big boys there...too hot, too early? Not many spectators...if in Europe, it would be packed..here, maybe 500-600 people watching...is cross waning in the US already? Maybe to early in the 'season'...


I think many of the trendy "sport of the moment" folks have moved on to stand up paddle boarding.

[45K10]

I am wondering if it is as engrained in the culture of the Belgians as I thought it was. While I was hiking around Iceland in August I ran into quite a few "20 something" Belgians and asked them about Cyclo-cross?

They didn't even know what I was talking about. I mentioned Van Aert, Sven Nys, not a clue. They do know who Danny Macaskill is though.

[David Kirk]

I agree with Mr. Gumme - here in the states the folks that come to cross races participate in them much of the time. Our little city of Bozeman has 80 racers show up on a Tuesday night for a cross race.

Plenty of interest to race maybe less to watch?

dave

[eBAUMANN]

If that WC had been in the NE or PNW the place would have been PACKED.
I heard they charged $5 admission...I would have happily paid twice that.
Id always rather go race than go watch, but if a WC is coming to town, im THERE.

WEDNESDAY night races last night, 425 racers PRE-registered + day of.

CX is alive and well, at least round these parts ;)

[FlashUNC]

Tough to draw huge numbers of even bike nerds to Waterloo for a WC race.

I get why Trek is putting on the show there, but its still a town of 3,300.

[oldpotatoe]

Tough to draw huge numbers of even bike nerds to Waterloo for a WC race.

I get why Trek is putting on the show there, but its still a town of 3,300.

Close to Madison tho...USA, lots of racers, few spectators...Europe few racers, lots of spectators...but Cx needs $ to survive...like any sport.

[mt2u77]

I took my kids for the pro races on Sunday. Admission was actually FREE. It was extremely hot for Wisconsin, which probably kept quite a few people at home. Saturday and Sunday were the hottest days of the year. Crazy for late September. It also overlapped with a Packer game, a borderline religious obligation in these parts. Even at that, this area is just not that populous to support a large crowd. I doubt any casual fans were travelling multiple hours to come watch.

[misterha]

A little off topic but it amazes me how Red Hook Crit in a span of 10 years has been able to get so huge, I watched for the first time his year and the crowd was larger than any cycling race that I've been to min Richmond Worlds. We're also talking about another discipline of cycling thats a niche within a niche

http://theradavist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/RHCBrooklyn2017-3761-1335x890.jpg

[Lewis Moon]

I think many of the trendy "sport of the moment" folks have moved on to stand up paddle boarding.

I thought the sport du jour was competitive beard growing.

[eBAUMANN]

A little off topic but it amazes me how Red Hook Crit in a span of 10 years has been able to get so huge, I watched for the first time his year and the crowd was larger than any cycling race that I've been to min Richmond Worlds. We're also talking about another discipline of cycling thats a niche within a niche


the races are in cities...huge cities...with an appeal that targets a different (typically non-racer) type of spectator, relying on the inherently dangerous concept of races track bikes on a road course to draw casual observers. Considering all of that, its really not all that amazing how its grown.

[ptourkin]

The biggest thing you have to keep in mind when watching US CX: we have a participation model, not an entertainment model.

There are an absolute crap-ton more races/day here (FWI can tell) than EUR.

There were 70 of us in the Olde Phartes B category last Sun. Charm City there'll probably be 125/category from 4s thru the Olde Phartes and into the 3/4s aka Killer B's

I know *I'd* rather go race than go watch.

YMMV

M

This, and it's fine. The throngs in Belgium are turning out to the big fall/winter event in their town for the year to drink and party. We have other excuses to do that - primarily CTEBall.

We had the California Nevada masters state track champs in my neighborhood this weekend and competitors outnumbered spectators probably 100 to 5. Nobody cared.

Local cross races appear to have a better ratio of drinkers to racers but probably only because most of those drinkers raced that day/came with family or friends who raced.

Participants may gradually become spectators too - it has happened in some of our cities to a limited degree with soccer as kids now grow up playing it. If not, so what - I'd rather have a nation of doers than watchers.

[sparky33]

we have a participation model, not an entertainment model.
Racers watching racers makes a fun scene, a friendly vibe and a cohesive racing community. I like our way.

I think many of the trendy "sport of the moment" folks have moved on to stand up paddle boarding.
I wish for this but don't see it happening. The field around here is only getting bigger and deeper (i.e. more competitive). cx is definitely the main gateway to bike racing in my community.

If that WC had been in the NE or PNW the place would have been PACKED.
I think so. Just look at the cluster*ck parking at any big UCI race. The density of enthusiasts is high.

[thwart]

I took my kids for the pro races on Sunday. Admission was actually FREE. It was extremely hot for Wisconsin, which probably kept quite a few people at home. Saturday and Sunday were the hottest days of the year. Crazy for late September. It also overlapped with a Packer game, a borderline religious obligation in these parts. Even at that, this area is just not that populous to support a large crowd. I doubt any casual fans were travelling multiple hours to come watch.

Exactly.

Watching 'cross in 90 degree weather in late September in the Northland... only for the true believers.

A seat in front of the tube to watch the local heroes probably looked good to most folks instead. With the A/C on.

[chiasticon]

World Cup race in Waterloo, WI, 24th of this month, all the big boys there...too hot, too early? Not many spectators...if in Europe, it would be packed..here, maybe 500-600 people watching...is cross waning in the US already? Maybe to early in the 'season'...not sure what the actual turnout was. I would've estimated more than that, but you could be right. I wouldn't say that all euro races are packed. it depends on the venue and the series, weather, etc. here's a couple example of euro races from last year that were far from packed.

Valkenburg WC (Netherlands): http://cyclephotos.co.uk/2016/10/23/2016-cyclocross-world-cup-3-valkenburg-photo-gallery/

Spa Superprestige (Belgium): http://cyclephotos.co.uk/2016/12/03/2016-superprestige-5-spa-photo-gallery/

and then here's Jingle Cross WC: http://cyclephotos.co.uk/2017/09/18/2017-world-cup-1-jinglecross-photo-gallery/

and Waterloo WC: http://cyclephotos.co.uk/2017/09/25/2017-world-cup-2-trek-cx-cup-photo-gallery/

yeah, there's sections in all of them where there's barely anybody, but then certain exciting features are packed.

you may be thinking of races like Zonhoven, which is just insanely packed, at least in the main "bowl": http://cyclephotos.co.uk/2016/10/17/2016-superprestige-2-zonhoven-race-photo-gallery/

that's, of course, not saying more/most euro races aren't super well attended. I'm just pointing out that not every single one of them are.

[misterha]

the races are in cities...huge cities...with an appeal that targets a different (typically non-racer) type of spectator, relying on the inherently dangerous concept of races track bikes on a road course to draw casual observers. Considering all of that, its really not all that amazing how its grown.

I wouldn't discount the amount of work that went into promoting the races and getting it where it is today.

[eBAUMANN]

I wouldn't discount the amount of work that went into promoting the races and getting it where it is today.

any race requires promotion, sure. but some races/racing have more of a self-perpetuating hype-machine built in compared to others. given the origins of the RHC, and the nature of the culture surrounding/supporting it, it quickly became a race that more or less promotes itself, the internet/word of mouth are powerful tools.

im not hating on it at all, i went to my first RHC in 2009 and have raced it twice myself...I just think the spectatorship at those races are COMPLETELY different from that of a cx race.

[crankles]

Current Pre-Reg for the C2 races in Sacramento this weekend.

545 Registrations for Saturday; 496 Registrations for Sunday.

add another 10% same-day reg.

pretty decent I'd say.

[MaraudingWalrus]

Cross series in Florida just announced that its folding due to low attendance. It isn't booming everywhere.

People around here seem to demand a year round racing season for their discipline...this usually means that nobody shows up to anybody's races in the summer because it's :butt: to race with how hot it is, and then everybody else is splintered between mtb, cx, and road during the tolerable months.

[e-RICHIE]

Current Pre-Reg for the C2 races in Sacramento this weekend.

545 Registrations for Saturday; 496 Registrations for Sunday.

add another 10% same-day reg.

pretty decent I'd say.

Only the Elite events that weekend are C2. The rest, the undercard, the age-graded races, and everything else are just USAC. Also, UCI C2 and C1 don't allow day of entries, only pre-reg. Sac may bend the rule, I dunno.

There are several conversations here. Ryan and his group are trying to make a place for the Elites to go and make money. That's fine. But that's a tiny segment of bodies, regardless of gender. The goal is to mirror, or improve upon, what Lyle, and Bruce, and Joan, and a couple of others did a decade ago. That's fine too. But he also wants us (the Americans) to be competitive. That will only happen if the riders are based in northern Europe and go toe to toe with the rest of the cx world every weekend.

The other part of the chat is about the rest of the 99% who race but have no interest in or aspirations to do what maybe 8-10 full timers do in the states. Until the Elite level is separated fully from the weekenders, nothing will change. It's the money from the latter segment that enables the former. Without these riders' entry fees and parking fees, it's a rare promotion that would make bank.

[crankles]

Only the Elite events that weekend are C2. The rest, the undercard, the age-graded races, and everything else are just USAC. Also, UCI C2 and C1 don't allow day of entries, only pre-reg. Sac may bend the rule, I dunno.

There are several conversations here. Ryan and his group are trying to make a place for the Elites to go and make money. That's fine. But that's a tiny segment of bodies, regardless of gender. The goal is to mirror, or improve upon, what Lyle, and Bruce, and Joan, and a couple of others did a decade ago. That's fine too. But he also wants us (the Americans) to be competitive. That will only happen if the riders are based in northern Europe and go toe to toe with the rest of the cx world every weekend.

The other part of the chat is about the rest of the 99% who race but have no interest in or aspirations to do what maybe 8-10 full timers do in the states. Until the Elite level is separated fully from the weekenders, nothing will change. It's the money from the latter segment that enables the former. Without these riders' entry fees and parking fees, it's a rare promotion that would make bank.

All so very true. I was mainly just commenting on the OPs question regarding the waning of CX. I admit I cherry picked this event a bit as folks are chasing point for Nat's since it's *local*, inflating reg numbers. Lot's of unfamiliar faces from SoCal traveling north for these USAC events. According to my empirical observations (ATMEO?) though, reg numbers have grown at a fairly steady rate since I arrived in NorCal in 98.

[e-RICHIE]

All so very true. I was mainly just commenting on the OPs question regarding the waning of CX. I admit I cherry picked this event a bit as folks are chasing point for Nat's since it's *local*, inflating reg numbers. Lot's of unfamiliar faces from SoCal traveling north for these USAC events. According to my empirical observations (ATMEO?) though, reg numbers have grown at a fairly steady rate since I arrived in NorCal in 98.

I think the shark jumped when the fields swelled in order to allow promoters to dip their toes into both segments. The UCI C2 and C1 races are full of glamor, and get the eyeballs, but the rank and file and the normal, average, everyday races they've gone to for years - these have suffered as so many now want to create some Euro-y spectacle and ride the 'cross zeitgeist. If the pro thing can't self-sustain (by now, in 2017), it's clear that something's wrong. I won't call it broken because it's never worked in the states.

As I'm fond of saying, and quoting myself when I do say it, "We are not them." This obsession many have to make cyclocross here what cyclocross is there can all go eat themselves for all I care. And this, from a guy who owns a team that focuses only on UCI events, and who was at the Worlds in London back in 1973 when Erik De Vlaeminck won one of his seven rainbow jerseys. I love the sport, but won't sell it out for it's own sake.

[quickfeet]

I attended and definitely more than 500-600 people, I'd put it in the 1.5-2k range. The course was huge and there was a big wooded section that hid a bunch of people with a secret bar.

The event was awesome, big fields and easily the most fun course I have ever ridden. They changed the course all three days and had enough food and extras to keep everyone entertained and fed.

It was crazy hot though, and just like in NE, people there grumble a bunch about it being too warm.

[quickfeet]

Also I think it was awesome to include true amateur races on the same course/weekend as the big boys.

[crankles]

I think the shark jumped when the fields swelled in order to allow promoters to dip their toes into both segments.

Well, the growth I'm seeing out here at least are at races that aren't even USAC. I'll take that as a good sign for our sport.
Promoters are putting their efforts into making the sport enjoyable for everyone, USAC and UCI be damned.

[e-RICHIE]

Well, the growth I'm seeing out here at least are at races that aren't even USAC. I'll take that as a good sign for our sport.
Promoters are putting their efforts into making the sport enjoyable for everyone, USAC and UCI be damned.

Understood. By USAC I mean amateur, regardless of the governing body.

[gavingould]

i was at both Jingle and Waterloo. i'd estimate crowds at a couple thousand for Trek, maybe 3-4k at Jingle?
it is disappointing when only a tiny percentage of the ~750 regular racers we get in chicagoland make the drive up to race a world class course and catch WC racing in person.

as far as the promoters and the Trek folks i interacted with, it was a super pro run event from a media perspective. friends i had who raced at all levels were well taken care of.

a number of industry people within driving range who would have probably gone were at Interbike, some folks had 'cross hangover from the previous weekend at JingleCross.
i would say Jingle had bigger crowds, but it's also only a couple miles from downtown whereas Waterloo is 20-25mi from Madison. Jinglecross is also more of a party.

i mean really... a lot of cyclists don't even know what cyclocross is.
so it's pretty hard for the average non-cyclist to get into it when they can go to the office monday morning and talk about the same game everyone else at the office watched.

[Andy sti]

Current Pre-Reg for the C2 races in Sacramento this weekend.

545 Registrations for Saturday; 496 Registrations for Sunday.

add another 10% same-day reg.

pretty decent I'd say.

And I'm driving 7 hours each way just for USAC points.

[oldpotatoe]

I think the shark jumped when the fields swelled in order to allow promoters to dip their toes into both segments. The UCI C2 and C1 races are full of glamor, and get the eyeballs, but the rank and file and the normal, average, everyday races they've gone to for years - these have suffered as so many now want to create some Euro-y spectacle and ride the 'cross zeitgeist. If the pro thing can't self-sustain (by now, in 2017), it's clear that something's wrong. I won't call it broken because it's never worked in the states.

As I'm fond of saying, and quoting myself when I do say it, "We are not them." This obsession many have to make cyclocross here what cyclocross is there can all go eat themselves for all I care. And this, from a guy who owns a team that focuses only on UCI events, and who was at the Worlds in London back in 1973 when Erik De Vlaeminck won one of his seven rainbow jerseys. I love the sport, but won't sell it out for it's own sake.

I know something about CX bikes but not much about the sport. But I don't see the 'problem' of making US cross racing 'like them', meaning huge, loud crowds, following and cheering for, elite, big boy racers of both genders. I don't see how huge crowds, then probably TV coverage, which means more $, can be a bad thing, I don't really seeing how that's 'selling out'. It's now basically a 'run what ya brung', local, enthusiastic sport with lots of participants but no 'support', either from crowds or any racing, governing body. Kinda like the local dirt track that ends the Saturday night with a figure 8, demolition derby..fun but small.

Wouldn't it be great to have this? Wouldn't it be 'good for the sport'?
Not arguing, just discussing..Good overview and thoughts here.

http://www.velonews.com/2017/09/from-the-mag/ryan-trebon-may-be-key-to-the-future-of-u-s-cross_449264

[Dave B]

I have no problem with smaller series as I think it has a grass roots feel to it. I get the draw of a large event, but for me I like the family feel in the smaller fringe races/events.

Now, I have been to one USGP race (both to watch and to participate). My cat5/4 field had over 100 racers and was a cluster.

Watching the "Pros" where I got to see e-richie's team (Will, Amy, and my apologies another young lady) all in Kentucky, where their normal series wouldn't have taken them and bikes for the first time was kind of cool. Seeing Powers, Johnson, Trebon, Wicks race reminded me how far off/away I am from a Pro. I think the big events are a blast, like a festival atmosphere. I will say I see it with a younger crowd more so than older folks like you see on TV at the euro events. The culture just isn't as ingrained here (at least in the midwest) as it is out in the NE as well as it would be in Europe.

I don't think TV shows how fast and demanding the courses are. The top pros and especially Van Der Poel's wire to wire wins on both US WC races was bad ass. He is amazing and young, not to mention from a hugely successful cycling lineage. We don't have that here in the States...Yet.

Maybe one day.

[Gummee]

I'm with r-richie on this one: I'd rather have our model than their model. More inclusive for one. I probably wouldn't be racing CX in EUR at darn near 50

Around the DC area, I see lots and lots of juniors racing. Bodes well for cycling in general and CX in specific.

My $.02

M