What to do when builder becomes unresponsive?

[ANAO]

TL;dr version - a few buddies and I ponied up for some custom frames in 2015 and have lost contact with the builder. What do we do?
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Full story:

In June of 2015, I reached out to a builder about a possible sponsorship for the team I ran. We would commit to a minimum of 4 (maybe more) custom frames and in return, he would give us 25% off. We would all race them and put his name all over our kit. Builder said he was barely making enough to survive and respectfully declined. I was itching for a custom bike myself, so continued shopping around. In August, he reached out to me and I still had not found a builder I wanted to use for my first custom bike. The builder said he had some free time slotted out that winter and wanted to take on the project.

We redesigned the kits and 4 of us sent in our deposits. I talked him up to my friends, one of which I convinced to jump in the queue before us. He got to working, and was super responsive and very knowledgeable (he used to weld for Spooky before they went belly-up before their current revival) and was just a generally nice guy. He lamented the business decisions of Spooky that led to their demise and he vowed to not make the same mistakes. Awesome. The winter turned to spring and, as it always does, spring to summer. And still, we had no bikes. He continued to post small repairs he was doing on instagram, but not many pictures of our bikes.

From the onset, he told us each bike took about 40 hours of work, but he was also a bike messenger to make ends meet, so he needed about 1 month per frame.

In July of 2016, he reached out to my friend to let him know his bike was done and was ready to go to painting. My friend was psyched and we were chatting about it every day, or every other day and we both couldn't wait to get our bikes. September 1, the builder messaged me to let me know that my tubes were being mitered and getting ready to build mine up. And then, radio silence again. For a few months this time. Usually, it was a few weeks at a time. For a younger frame builder who was generally on their phone pretty often, this was worrisome.

In January (of 2017), he reached out to let me know that he's been in and out of rehab for drug addiction and the past 15 months since we had originally began working together had been extremely tough but he promised that the projects were well underway, he was on the up and up and he was going to deliver them in time for the 2017 race season.

I was skeptical, but hopeful (forever the optimist, doing me in again). Since then, he's been mostly MIA. I get little snippets of information from time to time, such as he's having difficulty paying rent, his phone was turned off/broken so he has no access to social media, and other tales of woe which make my gut wrench. I really feel terrible for the guy and I let him know as much. In fact, the most often used phrase I say to him is along the lines of, "get healthy, dude. A bike is just a bike."

At the same time, we have many dollars invested with him, and we do want our bikes, and at this point, we have no idea if we'll ever see them or the parts we sent him to build the bikes up for us. There are 4 bikes total he's supposed to be building (one of the guys walked away from his deposit after about a year). My friend had reached out to his sister through social media and she was able to touch base with him, about a month ago, and told us that he will reach out about getting us the raw materials, whatever state they were in, so that perhaps we could at least recoup some parts/have somebody else finish the builds.

We haven't heard from him.

What's the next step? It's a tough situation.
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Edited to add: builder's name is Billy. If you think you know Billy and you can help he or I out, please get in touch.

[FlashUNC]

Personally? Write it off, take stock of what you can learn from the whole mess, and move on.

I doubt you're ever seeing those parts again, much less finished bikes.

[AngryScientist]

it's refreshing that you named the builder right away. excellent.

i honestly dont think you have many options. you can't get blood out of a stone, and obviously your deposit moneys were spent many months ago on who knows what.

i was considering adding other points here, but honestly - i know how you must feel and it is frustrating, and i hope you can find some peace given the situation. it is probably unlikely to end with a good outcome for you guys.

[ANAO]

it's refreshing that you named the builder right away. excellent.

i honestly dont think you have many options. you can't get blood out of a stone, and obviously your deposit moneys were spent many months ago on who knows what.

i was considering adding other points here, but honestly - i know how you must feel and it is frustrating, and i hope you can find some peace given the situation. it is probably unlikely to end with a good outcome for you guys.

I removed his information because I didn't know if it was in poor taste. I still don't know how I'm supposed to feel about all of this.

[biker72]

personally? Write it off, take stock of what you can learn from the whole mess, and move on.

I doubt you're ever seeing those parts again, much less finished bikes.

+1

[AngryScientist]

I removed his information because I didn't know if it was in poor taste. I still don't know how I'm supposed to feel about all of this.

you dont?

you entered into a contract with someone, fulfilled your end of the agreement and didnt get what you paid for. pretty black and white to me.

[ANAO]

you dont?

you entered into a contract with someone, fulfilled your end of the agreement and didnt get what you paid for. pretty black and white to me.

Yes but addiction is a terrible thing and I'm having a tough time holding him responsible. It's getting harder and harder to give him the benefit of the doubt though, as the doubt dries up.

[jruhlen1980]

TL;dr version - a few buddies and I ponied up for some custom frames in 2015 and have lost contact with the builder. What do we do?

What's the next step? It's a tough situation.

Walk away. Sure you could sue for the deposit and probably get a judgment, but the world could be wallpapered with uncollectable judgments. We all know that money is long gone.

[FlashUNC]

Yes but addiction is a terrible thing and I'm having a tough time holding him responsible. It's getting harder and harder to give him the benefit of the doubt though, as the doubt dries up.

By your own timeline of events, he reached out to you to do this project. And is multiple years late. Yes, the reasons for the delay are tragic and horrible and anyone with an ounce of empathy can feel for the guy.

But there's nothing wrong with naming someone who's years late on a project.

[seanile]

name him. prevent others from making the same mistake, and, this is pessimistic of me, potentially becoming a mark if his rehab fails again..

[Ken Robb]

I've had several similar experiences and two of them were with guys/companies with solid reputations but situations can change while you wait to get to the head of the line. Injuries, disease, addictions, divorce can all transform a builder's performance from sublime to disaster. We have a number of first class builders in our group and I would only deal with someone with an IMPECCABLE reputation over quite a few years.
I doubt that there is any likelihood that you can recover money or parts from this guy.

[MattTuck]

It is a tough one. Is the guy a few hours drive from you?

I'd say your course of action is based on what your envisioned outcome is. If it is simply to get your parts back, then I'd go visit the guy and tell him you want your stuff back. A few hours drive may sort out the whole thing, and you can atleast be done with it, and get closure (either way it turns out).

If you actually want the bikes, then I'd probably go visit him, and make an appeal and offer to help in whatever way you can, to get the bikes to completion. I know that sucks to insert yourself into an addict's life. and the probability of success is probably low.

All that said, the guy may have already sold your parts for dope, and you might be drilling a dry well.

Once you close the book on it, you might consider posting some of the lessons you learn to this thread I started a while ago. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=129689) so that others can learn from your experience.

[ANAO]

It is a tough one. Is the guy a few hours drive from you?

I'd say your course of action is based on what your envisioned outcome is. If it is simply to get your parts back, then I'd go visit the guy and tell him you want your stuff back. A few hours drive may sort out the whole thing, and you can atleast be done with it, and get closure (either way it turns out).

If you actually want the bikes, then I'd probably go visit him, and make an appeal and offer to help in whatever way you can, to get the bikes to completion. I know that sucks to insert yourself into an addict's life. and the probability of success is probably low.

All that said, the guy may have already sold your parts for dope, and you might be drilling a dry well.

Once you close the book on it, you might consider posting some of the lessons you learn to this thread I started a while ago. (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=129689) so that others can learn from your experience.His shop is 4 miles from my office in brooklyn.

But - his sister said he's in a rehab facility (in and out between that and a halfway house) and the stuff is in storage. Man, what I would give to get into that storage unit.

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[zzy]

If it's the Billy I'm thinking of, you probably won't see the frames and are best leaving this be.
e - now that he's been named I don't think it's right to post anything else semi-publicly.

[sandyrs]

Yeah, I'd probably live my life going forward under the assumption that this is an entirely sunk cost, and any returned parts or tubes would be a welcome but unexpected bonus.

Sorry to hear that a really cool-sounding project ended up going this way.

[jtakeda]

Have you tried catching him at his day job?

[ANAO]

Have you tried catching him at his day job?

I don't know what this is, or if it exists.

[BobO]

Yes but addiction is a terrible thing and I'm having a tough time holding him responsible. It's getting harder and harder to give him the benefit of the doubt though, as the doubt dries up.

As someone who has been too close to addictions too many times, I can tell you that you do him no service by not holding him responsible. Addicts need people to hold them accountable, that is part of the path towards recovery.

[sitzmark]

If he's local you might try police and/or small claims court. Had a similar situation with a landscaper many years ago and a $10k deposit. Long story but references and reputation were solid. Unfortunately he was snorting deposit and asking for more "to secure materials". That was part of the hook that undid him - larceny by false pretenses. Local police helped pursue him and file court proceedings. He skipped out on trial dates and eventually was tossed in jail for it - a few times. Was a long ordeal and took diligent pursuit, but court forced him to return most of the deposit. When he missed payments they tracked him down and gave him more jail time.

I tried the "nice guy" approach for a while and he played it for all it was worth ... until I decided there was no value to me or to him to let it slide.

Good luck - hope it works out for all parties.

[AngryScientist]

His shop is 4 miles from my office in brooklyn.



if he's in as bad of shape as he claims to be, that can't possibly last too long.

rent in BK aint cheap, thats for sure.

[ftf]

How would you like to be treated if you were in this situation? I have no personal experience, but that is all I can come to. I doubt holding his feet to the fire is going to help him, and doubt you will get your money back as mentioned prior.

[ntb1001]

His shop is 4 miles from my office in brooklyn.

But - his sister said he's in a rehab facility (in and out between that and a halfway house) and the stuff is in storage. Man, what I would give to get into that storage unit.

Sent from my SM-G930V using TapatalkI would get back in touch with the sister and het her to help you out getting your parts back. Tell her that you will involve the police and courts if she won't help.

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[loxx0050]

I would get back in touch with the sister and het her to help you out getting your parts back. Tell her that you will involve the police and courts if she won't help.

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While I agree this person shouldn't be allowed to slide out of their obligation it I don't agree with threatening his sister with legal recourse. Would you like it if you had a deadbeat sibling or friend and a person who they pissed off or cheated came threatening you? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Edit: Now if you mean against her brother then by all means go ahead. I had an initial reaction reading your post but now see it from a different light.

[ntb1001]

While I agree this person shouldn't be allowed to slide out of their obligation it I don't agree with threatening his sister with legal recourse. Would you like it if you had a deadbeat sibling or friend and a person who they pissed off or cheated came threatening you? I sure as hell wouldn't.

Edit: Now if you mean against her brother then by all means go ahead. I had an initial reaction reading your post but now see it from a different light.Defiantly against her brother, there is no recourse available against the sister. I was just saying use the relationship with her to get something...anything out of this. With the situation described, I would be surprised if anything is received.

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[R3awak3n]

if he's in as bad of shape as he claims to be, that can't possibly last too long.

rent in BK aint cheap, thats for sure.

I think he mentioned all his stuff is in storage, there is no more shop I don't think. There is also no more website. Its a tough situation for sure. I would be happy to just get the parts back but does he even till have the parts?!?!? thats the question

[David Kirk]

So have you given him money as well as components that will be used to assemble the frames he'd have built for you into bikes?

dave

[54ny77]

That cracks me up, sadly. Reason why is a buddy of mine did exactly that with the founder of Spooky years ago. Brand new Di2 group, if I recall. Boy was that Spooky guy a trainwreck.

Sounds like anyone and anything associated with Spooky is a trainwreck.

So have you given him money as well as components that will be used to assemble the frames he'd have built for you into bikes?

dave

[R3awak3n]

That cracks me up, sadly. Reason why is a buddy of mine did exactly that with the founder of Spooky years ago. Brand new Di2 group, if I recall. Boy was that Spooky guy a trainwreck.

Sounds like anyone and anything associated with Spooky is a trainwreck.

I think Frank the Welder is a reliable guy/ never heard a single bad thing about him so its not fair to say that.

but yes, Spooky was a disaster of a business.

[ANAO]

So have you given him money as well as components that will be used to assemble the frames he'd have built for you into bikes?

dave

Yes. He has 2 frames completely paid for, + 3 deposits.

A few forks and one complete gruppo, wheels included.

[AngryScientist]

i understand if you dont want to get into it, but how is it that he winds up with two bikes that are completely paid for?

[ANAO]

i understand if you dont want to get into it, but how is it that he winds up with two bikes that are completely paid for?

No problem:

Deposit is $500 so Billy can order parts.
Billy to client: I have your parts and am going to begin working on your bike. Please send me $500.
Billy to client: I have begun working on your bike and it is nearing completion. Please send me the balance.

So,

Billy to Seth: I am sending your bike to painting, please send the remainder of the funds.
Billy to me: I am going to be finishing up your bike now. Please send me the third payment.

[William]

name him. prevent others from making the same mistake, and, this is pessimistic of me, potentially becoming a mark if his rehab fails again..

I have to agree here. Not doing anything about it or letting it slide only makes it easier for the behavior to continue and get other people duped as well.





William

[William]

I think Frank the Welder is a reliable guy/ never heard a single bad thing about him so its not fair to say that.

but yes, Spooky was a disaster of a business.


I agree here as well, never heard of an issue with FTW.





William

[cmg]

No problem:

Deposit is $500 so Billy can order parts.
Billy to client: I have your parts and am going to begin working on your bike. Please send me $500.
Billy to client: I have begun working on your bike and it is nearing completion. Please send me the balance.

So,

Billy to Seth: I am sending your bike to painting, please send the remainder of the funds.
Billy to me: I am going to be finishing up your bike now. Please send me the third payment.

Time for a drive to Bill's storage and recover what's left if anything. been fortunate to have had a few custom built, always ask for shot of what's been done, no guarantee their showing me mine but...

[velomateo]

Yes but addiction is a terrible thing and I'm having a tough time holding him responsible. It's getting harder and harder to give him the benefit of the doubt though, as the doubt dries up.

I recently sat on jury duty, and there seems to be far too many people in our society that are willing to give addicts a pass. I have a nephew that struggles with addiction, and I believe nothing positive comes from allowing addicts to go through life without being responsible for their errors. Something has to drive them to change/get help.

Sorry to hear your story, I wish you good luck.

[AngryScientist]

Time for a drive to Bill's storage and recover what's left if anything.

time to find out when his storage unit will be auctioned off....

http://georgekelley.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/storage-wars-cast2.jpg

[93KgBike]

You are infantilizing your welder.

Confront him.

Find a way to make yourself, and the friends you enticed, whole.

Tell us all about it.

[nicrump]

I try to stay out of these things but this is too easy.

I heard "addiction", "broke" and "parts"

There is likely no parts to be returned at this point.

When the builder told you at the start he couldn't make ends meet followed by "messengering for extra cash" thereby delaying builds(should be more money there), you shoulda bolted.

40hr for a welded aluminum(my assumption) frame pre-paint, carbon fork is about 32hr too many for a professional builder.

Sorry for your loss.

[zzy]

You guys are making a lot of assumptions about what Billy has in storage. (I'm sorry to say this) but if it can be sold, it probably has been. Get all the small claims judgments you want but good luck collecting. Spend your mental energy on something productive. Best case: Billy cleans up and makes amends one day. But forming a posse and going after Billy and his sister isn't going to help anyone or recover anything. This wasn't exactly a secret in the NYC bike scene and I'm sorry ANAO let himself get played like this.

[William]

You guys are making a lot of assumptions about what Billy has in storage. (I'm sorry to say this) but if it can be sold, it probably has been. Get all the small claims judgments you want but good luck collecting. Spend your mental energy on something productive. Best case: Billy cleans up and makes amends one day. But forming a posse and going after Billy and his sister isn't going to help anyone or recover anything. This wasn't exactly a secret in the NYC bike scene and I'm sorry ANAO let himself get played like this.

I'm agreeing a lot here today...just out him and move on. Like has been said, there is likely nothing left having been sold off and used to fuel the addiction. Just try and warn others not to fall into the same trap and furthering the addiction.




William

[ColonelJLloyd]

I got lied to and burned by a house painter last year. It was on top of what was the single worst year of my life and I was not in a good place to begin with. It sucks to look at it all with the benefit of hindsight and seeing how I was fooled. I had so much anger at myself. When I would have visions of myself hurting the guy I knew I had to do what I could to put it out of mind and move on.

People take advantage of others everyday and it sucks. Everyone can post that you should've know better and you should've done this or that. None of that is helpful now. You've learned whatever lessons are there for you. I'd say the episode requires nor deserves any more of your energy. Out the guy to warn others, realize that the money/parts are gone for good and move on.

[ANAO]

So, claim a loss in April and have the government send it directly to somebody else who makes sweet custom crit race bikes for my net deposit?

I guess I feel like I'm generally a pretty good guy and try to do the right thing whenever I can and people don't usually want to try to screw me. I still haven't accepted the fact that he was trying to screw me. I still don't have reason to believe that.

[jmoore]

I assume you have a full list of what has been paid and sent to this guy. With corresponding MSRP at today's values.

I'd try and figure out a way to get into that storage unit and get back whatever you could, if there is anything left.

Can the police or courts help you get in somehow? Or be nice to the sister and see if she can facilitate getting you in there. If this guy is decent, he'll give his sister a key and tell you to go get your stuff.

[seanile]

So, claim a loss in April and have the government send it directly to somebody else who makes sweet custom crit race bikes for my net deposit?

I guess I feel like I'm generally a pretty good guy and try to do the right thing whenever I can and people don't usually want to try to screw me. I still haven't accepted the fact that he was trying to screw me. I still don't have reason to believe that.

that's totally fair..and you should keep that attitude for most people. but addicts are not the status quo. regardless of what he intended, what happened did happen. gamblers don't set out intending to lose all of their money, and addicts don't set out intending to steal from or manipulate people to get their next fix. but that's still the result. and until someone, usually someone affected by it, makes it abundantly clear to them that their behavior is intolerable, they won't be getting the solid kick in rump they need to make a change.

[gasman]

So, claim a loss in April and have the government send it directly to somebody else who makes sweet custom crit race bikes for my net deposit?

I guess I feel like I'm generally a pretty good guy and try to do the right thing whenever I can and people don't usually want to try to screw me. I still haven't accepted the fact that he was trying to screw me. I still don't have reason to believe that.

He wasn't trying to screw you as a person directly. He was/is just feeding his habit. People in the depths of addiction don't care about anybody or anything other than feeding their habit. I've seen in too many times.

Move on for your own sanity you'll not get anything from him. Oh , and out him to protect others.

[93legendti]

What a lousy situation to be in. I am sorry this happened to you.

I almost feel that these threads should require that the name of the builder be stated in the OP.

[veggieburger]

as someone who has been too close to addictions too many times, i can tell you that you do him no service by not holding him responsible. Addicts need people to hold them accountable, that is part of the path towards recovery.

+1

[54ny77]

Paceline search is your friend:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1607631&postcount=48

Will guess that it's Billy Maynard (Coarse Fabrication) Brooklyn, New York - http://coarsefabrication.com/

OP sorry you got screwed but several years ago i was in the EXACT position as you except multiple # of bikes for local teams (the deal was to arrange discounts for all CRCA teams), with Mickey from Spooky, and he screwed the pooch so bad it's not worth revisiting. Only a couple teams ended up getting bikes and it was still a disaster. Bikes poorly made, delivery timelines botched, etc. Most of those guys don't have a pot to piss in, let alone being able to order materials.


What a lousy situation to be in. I am sorry this happened to you.

I almost feel that these threads should require that the name of the builder be stated in the OP.

[R3awak3n]

I don't think he was trying to screw you guys either. I am sure he is not a bad guy but drug addition sucks, makes people irrational.


as far as revealing the name of the builder. No one is going to get a bike built by this dude, the website for the company is dead and I doubt the dude is doing any business from rehab. Also the name is there so with a little detective work you could find it. I think till things get resolved ANAO is smart to leave the name out. This is not just about a bike now, its about someone who has an addiction problem so maybe not that nice to blast dudes life on the web (yes he screwed up but lets be a bit human here, its just a bike at the end of the day)

[R3awak3n]

Paceline search is your friend:

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=1607631&postcount=48

Will guess that it's Billy Maynard (Coarse Fabrication) Brooklyn, New York - http://coarsefabrication.com/

OP sorry you got screwed but i was in the EXACT position as you except in multiple # of bikes for local teams (we were arranging discounts for all CRCA teams), with Mickey from Spooky, and he screwed the pooch so bad it's not worth revisiting. Only a couple teams ended up getting bikes and it was still a disaster. Bikes poorly made, delivery timelines botched, etc. Most of those guys don't have a pot to piss in, let alone being able to order materials.

I really don't think it should be up to you do disclose that information but you do you

[54ny77]

What is this, omerta? We're adults. This is a forum about bikes, and a story of how a customer got screwed. There's millions upon millions of reviews on products as mundane as toothpaste on Amazon. What's so special about bikes?

I really don't think it should be up to you do disclose that information but you do you

[ANAO]

OP sorry you got screwed but several years ago i was in the EXACT position as you except multiple # of bikes for local teams (the deal was to arrange discounts for all CRCA teams), with Mickey from Spooky, and he screwed the pooch so bad it's not worth revisiting. Only a couple teams ended up getting bikes and it was still a disaster. Bikes poorly made, delivery timelines botched, etc. Most of those guys don't have a pot to piss in, let alone being able to order materials.

Adler...rode a smart race?

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[54ny77]

Bingo. One of the few teams that got bikes that weren't totally jacked.

NYVelocity got a few as well. I saw really botched building, like bottle bosses placed in stupid locations. Some said they rode like crap (bad alignment).

The CAAD NYVelocity bikes were really nice, however. As they should be.

Mickey could have killed it with great bikes and great paint supplied to CRCA teams, at a fair price. But, instead it was sad excuse after excuse after excuse...

Adler...rode a smart race?

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[ANAO]

Bingo. One of the few teams that got bikes that weren't totally jacked.I still see Ken hammering up and down 9w from time to time on what looks to be 3 sizes too small. Or is that his serotta?

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[54ny77]

Ken was a monster! So fast. I wonder if he still holds the masters hour record?

I can recall a few very painful rides following in his draft (or rather, struggling to stay in it) along 9W, many moons ago.

I still see Ken hammering up and down 9w from time to time on what looks to be 3 sizes too small. Or is that his serotta?

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[ANAO]

Ken was a monster! So fast. I wonder if he still holds the masters hour record?

I can recall a few very painful rides following in his draft (or rather, struggling to stay in it) along 9W, many moons ago. He coached the development team for a little while (does he still?) and the current 1's that came out are rockstars. Moseley went from a t to elite road race state champ in under 3 years. Morkal-Williams is a beast. Hoping we can tap into Petti's talent and convince him to come over to the dark side this winter but he's leaning towards Foundation. Some seriously fast kids under his tutelage. He's still an animal.

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[Blown Reek]

So, how much money did you save by choosing this builder over a more established builder? Meaning: what were you getting charged for a frame and fork? Also, what kind of lead time were you looking at originally?

[ANAO]

So, how much money did you save by choosing this builder over a more established builder? Meaning: what were you getting charged for a frame and fork? Also, what kind of lead time were you looking at originally?His price was $1,600 for a tig-welded single-color ppwdercoated frame.

For 4 frames, all done in the same color with true temper ox platinum tig-welded, he offered them to us for $1,200.

I sent him a columbus Grammy fork.
Because I was the ring leader and put this together, he ordered me S3 and wet painted ghost decals on the downtube were to be the finishing touches.

BUT I wasn't under the impression he was obscure or poorly-known. I had spoken with a prominent racer who had just commissioned two frames from him and Billy did really stellar work with Horse manning the paintbrush (can?) but my mileage. Well, it obviously varied.

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[David Kirk]

Yes. He has 2 frames completely paid for, + 3 deposits.

A few forks and one complete gruppo, wheels included.

I'm sorry to hear that.

I'm guessing the chance of getting any money back, or any completed frames, is near nil. I hate to say this but I think you'll have to walk away from the money.

With any luck he still has your parts. He may have sold them to feed the beast or they may be sitting forgotten in a corner. I'd concentrate on limiting your loss and trying to get your parts back.

I hate reading stories like this.....it's a lose-lose deal if ever there was one. The client loses and all the good, honest and professional builders out there suffer after being tarred with the same brush as the guy who takes the money and runs. A number of years ago I had a guy ask for his deposit back because he "learned that all of us framebuilders are crooks" and he wanted out. It sucks for everyone.

A few words of advice for you going forward or for others that want to do biz with a framebuilder. Talk to them and really listen to what they say and not what you want to hear. Are they promising things that are too good to be true? Do they want payment in full up front? Do they need all your parts before they will start the build? Do they only talk to you when they want money? If the answer to any of the above is "yes" then walk away and do biz with a real pro. No real pro will ask for any of this stuff. When was the last time you heard anything like this about Crumpton, or Strong, or Ellis or etc....? Do any of these guys ask for money and disappear? Nope.

This could be easily misconstrued as blaming the victim and I don't mean to imply that. I'm just saying that if it seems too good to be true and the builder wants money up front to say thanks but no thanks and find a pro.

Again - I'm sorry to hear about your frustrating situation.

dave

[sales guy]

I don't know what this is, or if it exists.


The bike messenger world is super close. If you happen to have one stop by, ask them, they'd know for sure what's up and how to reach Maynard.

Also, another thing, reach out to Affinity, King Kog or a couple other shops in Brooklyn. They'll know what's up or how to reach Billy.

[Heisenberg]

His price was $1,600 for a tig-welded single-color ppwdercoated frame.

For 4 frames, all done in the same color with true temper ox platinum tig-welded, he offered them to us for $1,200.


FFS - first sign of trouble.

[seanile]

FFS - first sign of trouble.
how's that?
i've seen around $1600 plenty for start-ups.
geekhouse and meriwether are both starting at $1900 now, and they've both been doing reputable work for a while. and i'm pretty sure i got my geekhouse for $1600 in 2012.
hell, gunnar starts at $1450 for custom steel, and marinoni at $1400.

[joosttx]

I'm sorry to hear that.

I'm guessing the chance of getting any money back, or any completed frames, is near nil. I hate to say this but I think you'll have to walk away from the money.

With any luck he still has your parts. He may have sold them to feed the beast or they may be sitting forgotten in a corner. I'd concentrate on limiting your loss and trying to get your parts back.

I hate reading stories like this.....it's a lose-lose deal if ever there was one. The client loses and all the good, honest and professional builders out there suffer after being tarred with the same brush as the guy who takes the money and runs. A number of years ago I had a guy ask for his deposit back because he "learned that all of us framebuilders are crooks" and he wanted out. It sucks for everyone.

A few words of advice for you going forward or for others that want to do biz with a framebuilder. Talk to them and really listen to what they say and not what you want to hear. Are they promising things that are too good to be true? Do they want payment in full up front? Do they need all your parts before they will start the build? Do they only talk to you when they want money? If the answer to any of the above is "yes" then walk away and do biz with a real pro. No real pro will ask for any of this stuff. When was the last time you heard anything like this about Crumpton, or Strong, or Ellis or etc....? Do any of these guys ask for money and disappear? Nope.

This could be easily misconstrued as blaming the victim and I don't mean to imply that. I'm just saying that if it seems too good to be true and the builder wants money up front to say thanks but no thanks and find a pro.

Again - I'm sorry to hear about your frustrating situation.

dave

So true. I have had 5 bikes made by "bespoke" builders or companies. All but one has been through a bike shop intermediatary. The one that wasn't through a bike shop was a less than ideal experience which soured my go-direct-to-the-builder experience. With that said the builders you listed I never heard anything remotely bad- and I hear a lot of gossip and stories.

[hokoman]

how's that?
i've seen around $1600 plenty for start-ups.
geekhouse and meriwether are both starting at $1900 now, and they've both been doing reputable work for a while. and i'm pretty sure i got my geekhouse for $1600 in 2012.
hell, gunnar starts at $1450 for custom steel, and marinoni at $1400.

I think it's more the discount aspect, not the pricing. If a builder starts discounting his frames to get people to order them - it's probably a struggling business. Most start lower, and as their reputation and workmanship get better, they raise prices.

[seanile]

I think it's more the discount aspect, not the pricing. If a builder starts discounting his frames to get people to order them - it's probably a struggling business. Most start lower, and as their reputation and workmanship get better, they raise prices.
id agree, but the discount was tied to a group buy, which is standard practice from my experience. when i was at Northeastern, the road team actually had what looked to be a successful group buy from spooky (ironic right?), and the deal was a discount in exchange for exposure/advertising. but yea, 25% may have been too steep of a discount to be a reasonable business decision.

edit: this is all neither here nor there at this point. i think the OP has gotten what he needs out of this thread..

[ANAO]

Through my office tools, I was able to pull a phone number of some management agency at the real estate where his office was located. Seth and I are going to reach out and see if we could poke around his shop. Hopefully our stuff is there. If not, we'll go back to his sister and offer to compensate her in exchange for legitimate info re: any storage unit.

I'll keep you all abreast of the situation as/if it unfolds. But yes, I'm coming to terms and will likely just write this whole thing off, unfortunately. Time to begin saving for my first custom bike, again :)

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Corso]

Addiction or not: He stole from you.

Don’t feel bad about doing everything within the law to recover your losses.

If you can sleep at night with “just letting it go”, and accepting the loss, so be it.

But if it’s always going to bother you, you have to try. And from what I’m reading, it bothers you.

[54ny77]

This is 100% spot on.

Perfect example: I've had a minor deposit on with Della Santa for quite a few years now, and the holdup for completion is entirely on me. I've just keep forgetting and/or have been slacking about getting my info over to him. There is no rush (I don't need the bike), although I probably need to get on it in case he thinks about hanging up the torch soon.

Not once has he ever called me asking me for $. But we've talked several times just shooting the s&^%!, and those are some of the best bike-related and interpersonal conversations ever. He's such a class act.

There are plenty of class acts in the framebuilding world. It's too bad a handful of idiots/scammers/dreamers who burn customers sully the reputation of the industry.



A few words of advice for you going forward or for others that want to do biz with a framebuilder. Talk to them and really listen to what they say and not what you want to hear. Are they promising things that are too good to be true? Do they want payment in full up front? Do they need all your parts before they will start the build? Do they only talk to you when they want money? If the answer to any of the above is "yes" then walk away and do biz with a real pro. No real pro will ask for any of this stuff. When was the last time you heard anything like this about Crumpton, or Strong, or Ellis or etc....? Do any of these guys ask for money and disappear? Nope.

[bobswire]

This is 100% spot on.

Perfect example: I've had a minor deposit on with Della Santa for quite a few years now, and the holdup for completion is entirely on me. I've just keep forgetting and/or have been slacking about getting my info over to him. There is no rush (I don't need the bike), although I probably need to get on it in case he thinks about hanging up the torch soon.

Not once has he ever called me asking me for $. But we've talked several times just shooting the s&^%!, and those are some of the best bike-related and interpersonal conversations ever. He's such a class act.

There are plenty of class acts in the framebuilding world. It's too bad a handful of idiots/scammers/dreamers who burn customers sully the reputation of the industry.

I still have a spec sheet with sizing and price quote of $1400 from Roland from a few years ago. Maybe I should follow through with it? :)

[54ny77]

Yeah this thread reminded me i really need to get on it as well.

Life gets in the way, I keep forgetting to send in my #'s, yadda yadda.

What I really want to do is go to Reno and meet the guy in person and have him size me up, but he doesn't do that. Your 1-pager is the same I have, I'm sure. I even said just build me a 54 or 55 square, that'll be fine and I trust you to do the rest. Nope! He wants it on paper. In other words, a professional.

We share a few similar friends/acquaintances, and I really enjoy the time I spend chatting with him and getting caught up every once in a blue moon.

I still have a spec sheet with sizing and price quote of $1400 from Roland from a few years ago. Maybe I should follow through with it? :)

[RedRider]

If the problem was truly caused by an addiction, I doubt there is even dust in that storage locker. An addict would even sell his tools to feed a habit. There's zero chance you will find a stack of tubes or semi finished frames with your names on them.
Yes, you should pursue legal channels but don't expect much. File a judgement or lien whichever is appropriate. If he emerges from rehab sober he might want to work out some repayment schedule. Your group is probably not the only one he owes money.

[bobswire]

Yeah this thread reminded me i really need to get on it as well.

Life gets in the way, I keep forgetting to send in my #'s, yadda yadda.

What I really want to do is go to Reno and meet the guy in person and have him size me up, but he doesn't do that. Your 1-pager is the same I have, I'm sure. I even said just build me a 54 or 55 square, that'll be fine and I trust you to do the rest. Nope! He wants it on paper. In other words, a professional.

We share a few similar friends/acquaintances, and I really enjoy the time I spend chatting with him and getting caught up every once in a blue moon.

My quote was from around 2004 and the reason I didn't follow up was the shop that turned me on to Della Santa was the Bike Nook in San Francisco and they carried Della Santa frames and had one in stock (NOS) that fit me for $800. I ended up selling the frame on this forum in 2010 because the older I got the shorter the TT and the longer the HT needed to get. :)

http://i58.tinypic.com/2zr0uxc.jpg

[54ny77]

I know the Bike Nook very well (I lived in the Sunset District for awhile). Len built me a set of wheels that lasted a millenia. Well, about a decade, from the early 90's to my earliest days living in NYC and riding on those lovely city streets. If I recall, not once did they ever go outta true. It was unbelievable.

At this point my brain is fuzzy on the details, but I think he boxed and shipped my then-bike (an old Colnago) from SF to NYC when I eventually moved there.

A buddy of mine from college had a Della Santa and introduced me to Bike Nook and Len. Those various frames stored up on high near the ceilings....priceless.


My quote was from around 2004 and the reason I didn't follow up was the shop that turned me on to Della Santa was the Bike Nook in San Francisco and they carried Della Santa frames and had one in stock (NOS) that fit me for $800. I ended up selling the frame on this forum in 2010 because the older I got the shorter the TT and the longer the HT needed to get. :)

http://i58.tinypic.com/2zr0uxc.jpg

[FlashUNC]

This is 100% spot on.

Perfect example: I've had a minor deposit on with Della Santa for quite a few years now, and the holdup for completion is entirely on me. I've just keep forgetting and/or have been slacking about getting my info over to him. There is no rush (I don't need the bike), although I probably need to get on it in case he thinks about hanging up the torch soon.

Not once has he ever called me asking me for $. But we've talked several times just shooting the s&^%!, and those are some of the best bike-related and interpersonal conversations ever. He's such a class act.

There are plenty of class acts in the framebuilding world. It's too bad a handful of idiots/scammers/dreamers who burn customers sully the reputation of the industry.

Go see him in person. He's a delight.

And to David Kirk's point, Roland was more or less the complete antithesis of what's been unfortunately recounted by the OP.

Roland didn't even take a deposit from me. Told me to send him a check once the bike arrived with the invoice. Maybe I was charming on the phone, who knows. But the bike arrived nearly to the day he expected it would get there, not "you'll have it in May" and it arrived in May. More "oh, it should be there May 3" and it was there maybe May 5.

There are a ton of stand-up guys like Roland building stuff these days.

[Bob Ross]

When was the last time you heard anything like this about Crumpton, or Strong, or Ellis or etc....? Do any of these guys ask for money and disappear? Nope.

I'll admit, I'm not entirely sure what The Framebuilder's Collective (http://www.velonews.com/2011/05/news/frame-builders-unite-and-uci-listens-and-reduces-approval-costs_170966) does, but every time I read a thread like this I thank my lucky stars that the only guys I've given my money to were members of that esteemed group, and I tell myself I will only ever do future business with those guys. It's like the Good Housekeeping Seal-Of-Approval for framebuilders!

[hampco]

I'll admit, I'm not entirely sure what The Framebuilder's Collective (http://www.velonews.com/2011/05/news/frame-builders-unite-and-uci-listens-and-reduces-approval-costs_170966) does, but every time I read a thread like this I thank my lucky stars that the only guys I've given my money to were members of that esteemed group, and I tell myself I will only ever do future business with those guys. It's like the Good Housekeeping Seal-Of-Approval for framebuilders!

You left this part out: http://www.framebuilderscollective.org/

Not sure this helps your case, but...

[Villgaxx]

You left this part out: http://www.framebuilderscollective.org/

Not sure this helps your case, but...

Is it me, or does that link go nowhere?

[ANAO]

Is it me, or does that link go nowhere?

Exactly.

[Bob Ross]

You left this part out: http://www.framebuilderscollective.org/

I originally intended to include that link...until I noticed it was dead. A bit on sleuthing suggests the site's been down since 2013? Whassup wit dat?


P.S. Wait, Hampsten's not a member? Okay, you guys get a pass, I'd consider giving you money also. :)

[unterhausen]

wasn't it hacked back then? Selling watches?

[azrider]

As someone who has been too close to addictions too many times, I can tell you that you do him no service by not holding him responsible. Addicts need people to hold them accountable, that is part of the path towards recovery.

This.

[FlashUNC]

Its a commendable sentiment, but this isn't like the guy is his brother or close friend and he's enabling the behavior by not holding him accountable.

He's a dude who tried to get some bike frames for a team on a deal, and probably had some parts he gave up that are long since gone.

He doesn't owe it to this dude to become some part of his accountability matrix or really to get involved beyond "You don't have my stuff? And no means of realistically making me whole anytime soon? Alright, see ya."

I'd love reading the story about how Billy makes amends at some point down the road, but that wish and a nickel won't buy you a cup of coffee in Brooklyn these days. A lot to be said, sucks as it does, for just taking your lumps, learning some lessons and moving on.

[BobO]

Its a commendable sentiment, but this isn't like the guy is his brother or close friend and he's enabling the behavior by not holding him accountable.

He's a dude who tried to get some bike frames for a team on a deal, and probably had some parts he gave up that are long since gone.

He doesn't owe it to this dude to become some part of his accountability matrix or really to get involved beyond "You don't have my stuff? And no means of realistically making me whole anytime soon? Alright, see ya."

I'd love reading the story about how Billy makes amends at some point down the road, but that wish and a nickel won't buy you a cup of coffee in Brooklyn these days. A lot to be said, sucks as it does, for just taking your lumps, learning some lessons and moving on.

That's not really a response to the context of my comment, which was that you shouldn't NOT hold the guy accountable because you're sympathetic to the fact he has the disease of addiction. Addiction is not like cancer, sympathy does no one any service. It is not only acceptable to hold the addicts feet to the fire in any way you can, it is preferable.

[azrider]

That's not really a response to the context of my comment, which was that you shouldn't NOT hold the guy accountable because you're sympathetic to the fact he has the disease of addiction. Addiction is not like cancer, sympathy does no one any service. It is not only acceptable to hold the addicts feet to the fire in any way you can, it is preferable.

Your message came through loud and clear.....to me at least.

I have absolutely no clue what "accountability matrix" means or where those comments were coming from so I just ignored it. :p Try that next time ;)

[FlashUNC]

That's not really a response to the context of my comment, which was that you shouldn't NOT hold the guy accountable because you're sympathetic to the fact he has the disease of addiction. Addiction is not like cancer, sympathy does no one any service. It is not only acceptable to hold the addicts feet to the fire in any way you can, it is preferable.

Which is fine from a best practice point of view, but if this imbroglio has been such a mental/fiscal time suck so far with little-to-no possibility of any restitution for the aggrieved party, better to cut your losses and move on rather than beating your head against the proverbial wall all in the service of what's best for the addict.

The screwed over guy without bikes may not be doing the addict any favors by hitting the bricks, but I'd argue he's probably doing himself a favor by not compounding a bad decision with continuing to have this mess in his life.

I believe I got the initial context of your first statement, but I think you're placing entirely too much emotional investment from the OP to the builder. He's not his brother or close friend or family member. He isn't going to have a seat at the intervention. Or be his sponsor at meetings, or any of that kind of stuff. Absolutely those people need to hold him accountable. A random guy he did a bad business deal with that -- apparently -- the OP can walk away from and move on with life? No way.

[BobO]

Which is fine from a best practice point of view, but if this imbroglio has been such a mental/fiscal time suck so far with little-to-no possibility of any restitution for the aggrieved party, better to cut your losses and move on rather than beating your head against the proverbial wall all in the service of what's best for the addict.

The screwed over guy without bikes may not be doing the addict any favors by hitting the bricks, but I'd argue he's probably doing himself a favor by not compounding a bad decision with continuing to have this mess in his life.

OK, that's fine for you, if you don't want to pursue the addict because you feel it isn't in your best interest. I have no criticism of that. We are all free to make those choices.

However, my point is that tip toeing around the issue because you have sympathy for his condition being a disease is the wrong reason to not pursue your claims. Addiction is not that kind of disease and holding their feet to the fire does not make you a bad person. In fact, the opposite is true as it can force the addict to think. I'm not claiming that you should pursue him for his benefit, I'm saying that it's not to his benefit to not pursue him.

[FlashUNC]

OK, that's fine for you, if you don't want to pursue the addict because you feel it isn't in your best interest. I have no criticism of that. We are all free to make those choices.

However, my point is that tip toeing around the issue because you have sympathy for his condition being a disease is the wrong reason to not pursue your claims. Addiction is not that kind of disease and holding their feet to the fire does not make you a bad person. In fact, the opposite is true as it can force the addict to think. I'm not claiming that you should pursue him for his benefit, I'm saying that it's not to his benefit to not pursue him.

http://screencrush.com/files/2013/03/thumbs-up.jpg

[FlashUNC]

Your message came through loud and clear.....to me at least.

I have absolutely no clue what "accountability matrix" means or where those comments were coming from so I just ignored it. :p Try that next time ;)

Or have a conversation to get clarity and see you don't disagree about that much after all.

Whatever floats your boat.

[unterhausen]

I guess this is getting really OT, but seems to me that the only thing that could be done is to get him in legal trouble. Does that really help an addict? Seems like he's trying to rehab himself, if that part of the story can be believed.

I had a painter that took money for work he didn't do. I still feel bad about his situation. Any time I paid him, he would go get really drunk. And he did enough to get me to the point where I could finish my project, so I forgive him.

It is interesting how many unstable people get into framebuilding and do a few nice frames and then flake out. Or do a lot of nice frames and then flake out. This problem seems to have died down now that the buzz is gone. One thing that causes it is that there is a disconnect between how much money it looks like you will make vs. how much you really make.

[msngr]

ANAO, if you get into his shop, see if you can grab my track frame. Says "Pink Rhino" on it, I think. I know it has FTW on it, as it was a collaboration with Frank the Welder.

[azrider]

ANAO, if you get into his shop, see if you can grab my track frame. Says "Pink Rhino" on it, I think. I know it has FTW on it, as it was a collaboration with Frank the Welder.

Plot thickens.

C'mon ANAO.....now ya gotta go to the garage.

[joosttx]

That's not really a response to the context of my comment, which was that you shouldn't NOT hold the guy accountable because you're sympathetic to the fact he has the disease of addiction. Addiction is not like cancer, sympathy does no one any service. It is not only acceptable to hold the addicts feet to the fire in any way you can, it is preferable.

Sympathy and the higher, empathy, does a lot of service. I just want to correct you on this grossly incorrect statement.

Enabling doesn't help addicts. But you can show sympathy and empathy without enabling.

[BobO]

Sympathy and the higher, empathy, does a lot of service. I just want to correct you on this grossly incorrect statement.

Enabling doesn't help addicts. But you can show sympathy and empathy without enabling.

You're right, I meant sympathy at the expense of accountability.

[b3pkay]

Wait a min... what if the word addict was never mentioned in this conversation? What if this was a company or any other business? A frame builder taking $$ like that is a business and should be accountable for the goods and services they’ve agreed to provide. If this situation was with anyone other than a destitute addict, the OP should just walk away and count it as a loss?

But also the whole situation just sucks and there's likely nothing that will ever materialize from pursuing the money or the parts.

[joosttx]

Wait a min... what if the word addict was never mentioned in this conversation? What if this was a company or any other business? A frame builder taking $$ like that is a business and should be accountable for the goods and services they’ve agreed to provide. If this situation was with anyone other than a destitute addict, the OP should just walk away and count it as a loss?

But also the whole situation just sucks and there's likely nothing that will ever materialize from pursuing the money or the parts.

Addict or not- likelihood of getting restitution is low in this situation. Aggressively seeking restitution would probably cost more in time and/or money than the value of the money loss. There are no certain terms one will ever recoup the money loss no matter what tact is taken.

Addict has little to do with the math here except, going to to rehab offers a glimper of hope that one day clean and sober Billy will do the right thing. Thats probably the OPs best bet if his stuff is not in the storage room.

as Kenny says, "you got know when to hold them and know when to fold them".

[chrismoustache]

Rough thread to read through.

I worked with a small outfit doing renewable energy installs, etc. The founder and head of the company was a really bright guy, super charismatic, but was absolutely the worst person I've met at managing details. We wound up always behind, out of budget, apologizing to everyone.

While I love to support the garage builder getting their start, I feel like it's just a straight up gamble sometimes.

[veggieburger]

Addict or not- likelihood of getting restitution is low in this situation. Aggressively seeking restitution would probably cost more in time and/or money than the value of the money loss. There are no certain terms one will ever recoup the money loss no matter what tact is taken.

If there is a storage unit with possessions inside of it, it doesn't hurt to have a look. It's neither aggressive nor time consuming, and probably won't cost the OP a dime.

Good luck, at the very least I hope you are reunited with your parts.

[Zachariah]

Find another frame builder. When you said drug rehab.... there explains all your woes. Run...

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

[ANAO]

09/26
Status update:

I was able to obtain the landlord's info from the dark corners of the interwebs. Seth phoned him up from Cali and found out that the landlord, who is a really nice guy, is pretty miffed about missing out on months' worth of rent. He turned off the electricity last month but still hasn't heard from Billy, which leads him to believe Billy hasn't been there in 30 days+.

He would like to go in, clean up all the stuff (throw out) and then rent out the space to someone else. My friend, being a real estate attorney out on the left coast, advised him to speak with his attorney before proceeding, and he left him my information.

I am to meet with him to lend validity and clarity to the situation and to appeal to him in allowing us first refusal to rummage through his workshop if/when he ever does go in, to allow us to recoup whatever may be in there of ours. Forks, groupsets, tubes, king headsets, brooks saddles, unbuilt tubes, fully built bikes? Who knows what he may have kept.

And then, if there's anything worth salvaging, calling up a welder, somewhere, and asking if they'll finish the job.

But that's far off, and a big if.

[ANAO]

ANAO, if you get into his shop, see if you can grab my track frame. Says "Pink Rhino" on it, I think. I know it has FTW on it, as it was a collaboration with Frank the Welder.

Wasn't that the one that was stolen?

Posted July 18, 2016.

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/13737563_10210186017110727_8224069711920720915_o.j pg?oh=aec15924d35c28deb57c16d9a0589387&oe=5A4846ED

"STOLEN BIKE!!! I just had this stolen. Lock was cut while I was in my apartment on Boerum st at Bushwick ave. I went inside for a for 15 minutes and it was gone when I came out. iI literally just put this frame back together a couple of days ago, it's incredibly sentimental to me as it was a huge project that I undertook with Frank the welder. Please keep your eyes peeled and hit me up if you see it. I am ready to enact serious street justice for the return of this. Please repost!!!"

[Nooch]

any updates, Eli? Did you grease the wheel and get into the space?

[msngr]

Wasn't that the one that was stolen?


(haven't checked this thread in a while)

Well, dang. Sure is. He never told me it was stolen. Guess that helps explain a few things.

That is that.

But also, what is up with putting risers on a race bike? That is like all kinds of wrong. Billy! (say it like Superintendent Chalmers saying "Skinner!")

And I think that pizza shop closed. Shame. Was by far the best pizza in that neighborhood. All the new people around there are killing local businesses.

[Skenry]

Hopefully we hear an update...
Kinda curious as to whats in the unit, like Heraldo in Al Capone's vault.

[ANAO]

any updates, Eli? Did you grease the wheel and get into the space?

I've been in Israel since Monday.

Seth spoke with the landlord and told him to reach out to me, but he hasn't as of yet. So, no updates on that front. I'll follow up when I'm back stateside in another week or so. I believe he's checking out the legality with his attorney.