eTap for MTB

[Cat3roadracer]

Anyone know the timeframe for this?

Thanks.

[bikinchris]

My touring frame is waiting for an Etap 2x11 kit. 42/28 chainrings and 11 to 42 cogs. It wants one.

[Cat3roadracer]

For my application I'm thinking 1x11, only one shifter, one der.

How difficult can this be?

[ColonelJLloyd]

My touring frame is waiting for an Etap 2x11 kit. 42/28 chainrings and 11 to 42 cogs. It wants one.

Does SRAM even make a mechanical 2x11 MTB group?

[stien]

For my application I'm thinking 1x11, only one shifter, one der.

How difficult can this be?

Since Etap is all about one shift lever per side, that's probably a bit off. You should get Di2.

[chiasticon]

Anyone know the timeframe for this?no actual idea whatsoever but my guess is that you're going to be waiting at least a couple years. we haven't even seen Force level eTap, and that's super easy for them; basically just making the same as the Red one with cheaper parts. so before we see that, I doubt you're going to see a MTB version. I'll bet they're working on it though.

[oldpotatoe]

Since Etap is all about one shift lever per side, that's probably a bit off. You should get Di2.

sram was 'in the corner' with road and then etap..with the one shift lever blade per lever for all functions(dbl-tap) but no such constraints with MTB, as they have had 'trigger' MTB shifters for a while...I imagine patents will be an issue VS shimano tho..I'm thinking a smart system, 2by, with a no LH shifter, front der that is programmed to shift when the chain gets in certain places on the rear...oh wait, that's shimano MTB Di2..

[dougefresh]

I'm speculating here but since SRAM has killed off the front derailleur for their MTB groups I don't think you'll see a 2x option, likely just shifter and rear derailleur that will work with existing 1x12 eagle stuff.

[dustyrider]

I'm also going to speculate that the e-mtb shifter would come before e-force. I can't see sram wanting to give shimano any more ground in the e-mtb shifter niche than they need to.

[bikinchris]

Does SRAM even make a mechanical 2x11 MTB group?

Yes, several different levels. The top end is called XX, which is the rear derailleur I currently have on my touring IF. I don't currently have an XX crankset because I haven't found one for the right price used. I have an XX front derailleur waiting until I do.

[vqdriver]

cable routing on some suspension designs is convoluted enough. etap for mtb would be awesome

[ColonelJLloyd]

Yes, several different levels. The top end is called XX, which is the rear derailleur I currently have on my touring IF. I don't currently have an XX crankset because I haven't found one for the right price used. I have an XX front derailleur waiting until I do.

I guess you'll have to prove it to me. I don't see it on their website, but I could be missing them. I run XX crank and f/r derailleurs on my gravel bike and 11s at that, but the XX (ten gears per chainring) group was a 2x10 group. I don't believe SRAM makes a 2x11 MTB group.

[sandyrs]

I guess you'll have to prove it to me. I don't see it on their website, but I could be missing them. I run XX crank and f/r derailleurs on my gravel bike and 11s at that, but the XX (ten gears per chainring) group was a 2x10 group. I don't believe SRAM makes a 2x11 MTB group.

I think this is right too. When SRAM went to 11 speed I think they also cut out the front derailleur entirely.

Of course, as you've pointed out, some (all?) 10s SRAM MTB stuff is compatible with 11s SRAM road shifters, which is awesome.

[RudAwkning]

Yes, several different levels. The top end is called XX, which is the rear derailleur I currently have on my touring IF. I don't currently have an XX crankset because I haven't found one for the right price used. I have an XX front derailleur waiting until I do.

2x10

https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/products/xx-front-derailleur#sm.00006a1rft7z8eprvlm127bz71744

[oldpotatoe]

I think this is right too. When SRAM went to 11 speed I think they also cut out the front derailleur entirely.

Of course, as you've pointed out, some (all?) 10s SRAM MTB stuff is compatible with 11s SRAM road shifters, which is awesome.

Kinda a shame sram is making your gearing choices for you, ala 11s and MTB. Not really into MTBing but pretty sure there is a market for 2by and even 3by where people ride these things, imho of course. Doubt shimano will dump front ders anytime soon on their MTB 11s rigs.

[ptourkin]

Kinda a shame sram is making your gearing choices for you, ala 11s and MTB. Not really into MTBing but pretty sure there is a market for 2by and even 3by where people ride these things, imho of course. Doubt shimano will dump front ders anytime soon on their MTB 11s rigs.

Maybe not "dump" but if you are talking about people who ride and buy new equipment above the Tiagra level front ders are almost a dead issue. 3x is basically non-existent. If you are talking about cheap OEM level stuff, fds are still in play. 1x took over MTBs a while ago and for good reason.

As an illustration, when you sort for 2x on complete bikes on Competitive Cyclist, you get one page of results. https://www.competitivecyclist.com/mountain-bikes?p=attr_buildtype%3AComplete%5C+Bikes%7Cattr_ gearing%3A2%5C+x&nf=1

whereas selecting for 1x gives you five. 3x does not exist.

You can say this is SRAM making decisions for the consumer but the market spoke a few years ago and I don't see any revolt in the MTB forums, Pinkbike etc..

[ColonelJLloyd]

Kinda a shame sram is making your gearing choices for you, ala 11s and MTB. Not really into MTBing but pretty sure there is a market for 2by and even 3by where people ride these things, imho of course. Doubt shimano will dump front ders anytime soon on their MTB 11s rigs.

I suspect the market for 2x11 (and 3x11 are you serious?) is so small that they've made a business calculation that they are fine with losing it completely. If a FD really fits a person's MTB needs then it would seem they could do just fine with 10 rear cogs if'n they wanted to use SRAM, but what do I know.

[oldpotatoe]

Maybe not "dump" but if you are talking about people who ride and buy new equipment above the Tiagra level front ders are almost a dead issue. 3x is basically non-existent. If you are talking about cheap OEM level stuff, fds are still in play. 1x took over MTBs a while ago and for good reason.

As an illustration, when you sort for 2x on complete bikes on Competitive Cyclist, you get one page of results. https://www.competitivecyclist.com/mountain-bikes?p=attr_buildtype%3AComplete%5C+Bikes%7Cattr_ gearing%3A2%5C+x&nf=1

whereas selecting for 1x gives you five. 3x does not exist.

You can say this is SRAM making decisions for the consumer but the market spoke a few years ago and I don't see any revolt in the MTB forums, Pinkbike etc..

Talking MTBs(Tiagra a road group), just saying shimano is offering 2by and 3by groups all the way thru XTR, in 2018...I think 1by, even with giganto rear cogsets, to 42t, still is a detriment to some in some areas, is all. But shimano is giganto also, so can make these things and sell where sram doesn't offer it.

[chiasticon]

I suspect the market for 2x11 (and 3x11 are you serious?) is so small that they've made a business calculation that they are fine with losing it completely.this. off-road riders and MTBer's especially love 1x11, and for good reason. go to a local MTB trailhead, try to count the number of FD's you see.

[gdw]

2x drivetrains are alive and well in the hardcore bikepacking community and some of those folks even run triples and BB7 cable disk brakes.:eek:

[fbhidy]

I guess you'll have to prove it to me. I don't see it on their website, but I could be missing them. I run XX crank and f/r derailleurs on my gravel bike and 11s at that, but the XX (ten gears per chainring) group was a 2x10 group. I don't believe SRAM makes a 2x11 MTB group.

GX comes in 2x11

https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/family/gx#sram-mtb-gx-2x11

[ColonelJLloyd]

GX comes in 2x11


Well, there you have it!

[sandyrs]

GX comes in 2x11

https://www.sram.com/sram/mountain/family/gx#sram-mtb-gx-2x11

Cool! You learn something every day. I could see that coming in handy for a weirdo build at some point.

[ofcounsel]

Kinda a shame sram is making your gearing choices for you, ala 11s and MTB. Not really into MTBing but pretty sure there is a market for 2by and even 3by where people ride these things, imho of course. Doubt shimano will dump front ders anytime soon on their MTB 11s rigs.

No. Not really, No market for front derailleurs on anything except for under 2k low end Full Sus mtbs, sub $1k hardtails or replacement pieces on retro bikes. Good riddance to front derailleurs on MTBs. I'll keep it on my road bike, but never again on an MTB.

[ofcounsel]

2x drivetrains are alive and well in the hardcore bikepacking community and some of those folks even run triples and BB7 cable disk brakes.:eek:

Oddballs. :)

[ofcounsel]

this. off-road riders and MTBer's especially love 1x11, and for good reason. go to a local MTB trailhead, try to count the number of FD's you see.

yep!

[Mikej]

As an avid MTB'r and racer, I'd say the main problem with etap for mtb is the battery position on the rear derailleur - it can easily be knocked off or even just rattled off. Then you'd have to find it....Plus, etap doesn't feel like it could cope with the strains of mtb riding, shifting under max strain and its way to slow. Plus plus- nobody even rides Di2 that I've seen, and I've been to many high level races this year and in the past.

[ofcounsel]

As an avid MTB'r and racer, I'd say the main problem with etap for mtb is the battery position on the rear derailleur - it can easily be knocked off or even just rattled off. Then you'd have to find it....Plus, etap doesn't feel like it could cope with the strains of mtb riding, shifting under max strain and its way to slow. Plus plus- nobody even rides Di2 that I've seen, and I've been to many high level races this year and in the past.

Yeah, no one I ride MTB with has Di2 either, and while I'm no racer, lots of guys I ride with pimp out their bikes. With 1x shifting being so accurate, reliable and (at least with Sram) smooth, there's no real need for electronic shifting. It is a cool concept, though.

[fbhidy]

I thought this was worthy of resurrecting this thread:

http://www.bikeradar.com/mtb/news/article/spy-shots-of-sram-eagle-etap-51790/

[jmal]

I heard Schurter was running prototypes. Regardless of how one feels about the need for these things, SRAM is really outpacing Shimano in the mtb world right now.

[chiasticon]

https://scontent-ort2-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/5c41f4a25661580ea0606259ab0c6da5/5B3B7DC1/t51.2885-15/e35/28157795_231551724057611_2597399695802236928_n.jpg

[David Tollefson]

Nice! Curious about the potential pairing with the Red (road) shifter...

[Mark McM]

Electronic derailleurs will have to come WAY down in price before I'd consider it for an MTB. I've only worn out a few road derailleurs in the past few decades, but I've gone through many MTB derailleurs. Here in New England, it's too easy to get sticks and branches caught in the spokes and/or drivetrain, resulting in the derailleur getting ripped off the frame (usually destroying the derailleur, and often taking the hanger with it). And if the derailleur does manage to remain intact for some time, the grit and grime around hear wears out the pivots much faster than road riding does.

In other words, rear derailleurs are nearly disposable items around here, so I'm not willing to pay a lot for them.

[tele]

In other words, rear derailleurs are nearly disposable items around here, so I'm not willing to pay a lot for them.

Quoted for truth

[eBAUMANN]

Yup. Mark nailed it, my thoughts exactly.

On a mtb, i want the RD to be the CHEAPEST part on the bike, not the most expensive.

I want to have a shelf of 2-3 backup RD's (and hangers) if im riding seriously enough to justify owning an eTap unit.

Same logic applies to CX bikes.
Di2 was too much $$ to drag through the mud (IMO)...eTap is another step above that and away from any bike of mine that will see use in the dirt.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with mechanical shifting, and given the insane depreciation of MTB components vs Road, going eTap just doesnt make sense...unless you just have more money than you know what to do with...

[jtbadge]

Mid-grade MTB stuff is so good these days.

[benb]

I guess I'll find out if/when I need to test ride a new MTB when I destroy my current one but I still also don't get 1X for the kind of riding I do.

2X is definitely going to work for me but I just don't see 1X.

Are top level X/C guys riding 1X too? Or is it just the crowd that only rides fast on the downhills? If I believe the marketing it feels like that is almost the only crowd left riding mountain bikes in the US.

The 1X drivetrains don't have any smaller cogs than what I've got. My stuff is ancient and I have a 22:32:42 setup on my MTB with IIRC an 11-30 cassette in the back.

I use that 42 ring EVERY ride, right up and down the cluster. The 22 can go, it's a waste and a half, but most of the 2X bikes I've looked at have smaller chainrings. My wife has a SRAM 2X setup and I think her big ring might only be a 30 or a 32. No top end at all.

My setup is SRAM too FWIW, it's just 10+ years old. I guess my riding pattern overlaps a lot with gravel bikes. My MTB riding will tend to have easy sections where you are moving at high speed, but then there will be technical areas that are better ridden on a MTB than a gravel bike.

I actually haven't really destroyed MTB rear derailleurs, and I've bent hangers but not destroyed them living in New England. If I catch a stick I'm less likely to be pedaling hard at high cadence on the MTB and I seem to be able to stop pedaling in time to not destroy my rear derailleur. I totally agree with the grime wearing on pivots & pulley wheels though. The cost of all these electronic groups is a huge mental barrier for me, even on the road.

[sandyrs]

Are top level X/C guys riding 1X too? Or is it just the crowd that only rides fast on the downhills? If I believe the marketing it feels like that is almost the only crowd left riding mountain bikes in the US.


Essentially every XC racer in new england seems to be on 1x, myself included. I do 60+ mile rides on my MTB with road sections between technical singletrack, and am totally content with my 1x setup.

[andrewsuzuki]

Are top level X/C guys riding 1X too? Or is it just the crowd that only rides fast on the downhills? If I believe the marketing it feels like that is almost the only crowd left riding mountain bikes in the US.

The 1X drivetrains don't have any smaller cogs than what I've got. My stuff is ancient and I have a 22:32:42 setup on my MTB with IIRC an 11-30 cassette in the back.

I use that 42 ring EVERY ride, right up and down the cluster.

I like 2x and even 3x as well. But your triple setup has a 520% spread, and the SRAM eagle setup has 500% spread. And I'd wager that you don't use your highest 42x11 combination very frequently (if you're really pedaling at 30mph, it's probably more efficient to get into an aero tuck and coast). Not counting that combination (42x12 as the highest), it's already already down to a 470% spread. To match your triple setup, you would use a 36T chainring with eagle.

And yes, the majority of pros are on 1x.

[bfd]

Yup. Mark nailed it, my thoughts exactly.

On a mtb, i want the RD to be the CHEAPEST part on the bike, not the most expensive.

I want to have a shelf of 2-3 backup RD's (and hangers) if im riding seriously enough to justify owning an eTap unit.

Same logic applies to CX bikes.
Di2 was too much $$ to drag through the mud (IMO)...eTap is another step above that and away from any bike of mine that will see use in the dirt.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with mechanical shifting, and given the insane depreciation of MTB components vs Road, going eTap just doesnt make sense...unless you just have more money than you know what to do with...

I have to agree with this and I don't even do any off-roading. I have etap on my road bike and it has a short-cage RD. I currently use 12-29 Campy cassette and it works flawlessly. However, I am thinking of going to an 11-32 cassette, but since my RD has a short cage, it might not work. Ideally, I should just get a mid-cage RD and be done with it. But, the etap mid-cage RD is like $600+! So that's out.

Another option is to use a $20 wolftooth road link to lower the RD and hopefully be able to accommodate the 32t cog. But, even used short cage etap RDs are in the $400-500 range on ebay, so the thought that if I do something wrong and end up destroying the RD trying to put on this set up is making me thing twice.

In the end, I may try it and see how it goes. Or if I'm too chicken, it might be worth paying my LBS to do it. That way, if something happens, they would be responsible.

I know, Good Luck!

[dustyrider]

I heard Schurter was running prototypes. Regardless of how one feels about the need for these things, SRAM is really outpacing Shimano in the mtb world right now.

You haven’t tried SRAM’s brakes...:eek:

[chiasticon]

my outlook towards eTap and di2 for off road used to be that it would be very cool to have. don't need to worry about mud and gunk getting into the cables and ruining shifting. of course, I reasoned, I'd only do it once the lower level components were available.

then I went 1X for both my CX rigs and MTB and realized it's only one cable you need worry about. if you have to change that a few times a season because conditions ruined it, so what? it's still a helluva lot cheaper than an electronic system. and I don't plan on going back to 2X for CX or MTB. 1X is just so much simpler. there's no "oh, I need to downshift for this upcoming hill, better do it now so I can adjust the rear in time too..." you just click one shifter until it gets where you need it to be. much less thinking or planning.

[ptourkin]

I like 2x and even 3x as well. But your triple setup has a 520% spread, and the SRAM eagle setup has 500% spread. And I'd wager that you don't use your highest 42x11 combination very frequently (if you're really pedaling at 30mph, it's probably more efficient to get into an aero tuck and coast). Not counting that combination (42x12 as the highest), it's already already down to a 470% spread. To match your triple setup, you would use a 36T chainring with eagle.

And yes, the majority of pros are on 1x.

Yeah, when the time comes, shop for the bike you want and if it's a complete, I doubt it will even be offered in 2X. As stated last year, try it right now on Competitive Cyclist.

The resistance here seems to be mostly coming from people who aren't riding a current build. I was ecstatic to get rid of another potential mechanical problem off road and as stated, the range can be the same or better. I thought retrogrouches valued simplicity?

[Jaybee]

You haven’t tried SRAM’s brakes...:eek:

Older versions, Juicys, Elixirs, sure.

The newer Guides and Levels (put some of these on last fall, just as good as any of my XTs) are a vast improvement.

[.RJ]

I guess I'll find out if/when I need to test ride a new MTB when I destroy my current one but I still also don't get 1X for the kind of riding I do.

It has very nearly the same spread of gearing than you have now.

Its lighter, simpler, quieter and more reliable - far less chance of chain drop/suck with these new setups. The new 12-speed eagle GX shifts pretty nice, I like it.

The downsides, of course are cost of new stuff and a new freehub if you're upgrading and the fancy SRAM cassettes wear quickly, if you go that route.

Give it a whirl. But, 2x and 3x work just fine too and shimano front shifting is always really slick. I've gone back and forth between 1x/2x and the final straw to throwing my front derailleurs in the trash was adding a dropper post to my full suspension bike, didnt want that extra lever/cable on the bars.

[jmal]

You haven’t tried SRAM’s brakes...:eek:

The new higher end brakes are just fine. Many people who used to swear by XT/XTR hydros are now happier with SRAM's high end hydros.

[.RJ]

The new higher end brakes are just fine. Many people who used to swear by XT/XTR hydros are now happier with SRAM's high end hydros.

Yeah, way better now.

I still prefer XT/XTR but its a preference, not a necessity so you dont get bludgeoned and thrown off the mountain by your riding companions for how much noise your brakes make.

[peanutgallery]

There is a 2x11 option with SRAM GX stuff at the moment. Works with a 10/42 cassette and I have actually seen it

As far as front shifting on an mtb? With 11 and 12 speed there is absolutely no need. Fewer broken chains, better clearance etc. Most frame designs don't even think about it, too much clutter. For the record, XO1 eagle with a 34 and it works flawlessly with more than enough gearing...even better than shimano

[peanutgallery]

Second, much improvement

The use of DOT fluid is key, no fade from heat and 4 pistons help with power. Shimano has been resting on their laurels. Had XT for years, but they felt weak when compared to Guides or Levels. You don't even have to go high end

The new higher end brakes are just fine. Many people who used to swear by XT/XTR hydros are now happier with SRAM's high end hydros.

[MaraudingWalrus]

Not worth turning this into a Sram bashing thread, since there are a lot of those on the paceline already....but Sram still has a lot to do to catch up with Shimano in terms of reliability of their brakes. Significantly more failures on Sram brakes than Shimano, even on the new fancy Sram brakes where they said they wouldn't do that.


Issues with errors in the size of pistons in the calipers and plungers in the lever (some way overized, some undersized), still the same issues with fluid contamination, and inability to hold up to humid climates.

[velotrack]

ymmv but i really like the new m8000 brakes and generally the size/feel of shimano levers.

not a diss on sram, i'm sure their new brakes are great - but i've seen enough problems on their brakes in the past to wait at least a year or two before trusting the new stuff even if it's good now.