World Championships Discussion (With Spoilers)

[MattTuck]

Yes, the World Championships are going on :banana:

Round up of the current news.

Team Sunweb won the men's and women's TTT
Bjerg wins the under 23 TT by over a minute.
During that same race: McNulty’s American teammate Neilson Powless looked to be on time to vie for a medal but disaster struck at the top of the route’s primary climb, Salmon Hill. He jammed his chain, and while trying to fix it, he clipped a barrier and flipped over the handlebars. Powless still managed to finish ninth.

[FlashUNC]

The Sunweb women's team was bonkers. Boels-Dolman had about a 10 second lead on the Sunweb team through the first couple checks, ended up losing by close to 15 seconds.

Absolutely flying that last third of the course.

On the men's side, Team Sky looked pretty ragged their entire run.

[choke]

The UCI strikes again. In the women's Junior ITT, Emma Norsgaard of Denmark had her bike disqualified shortly before the race and had to borrow a bike. She placed 3rd in the Junior ITT at the Euro Championship recently and was one of the favorites today.

FYI, Catherine Marsal is the Danish Women's coach.

[kramnnim]

Sagan has a sore throat :help:

[weisan]

Sky TT losing Geraint Thomas on the last climb probably costs them the championship.

[Drmojo]

Sky TT losing Geraint Thomas on the last climb probably costs them the championship.

nice try weisan pal

[FlashUNC]

Van Vleuten with another dominating performance. She's killing it this year.

[oldpotatoe]

Sky TT losing Geraint Thomas on the last climb probably costs them the championship.

Pretty funny, they weren't really in the hunt for gold, with or without Thomas.

[nooneline]

Incredible ride for Dygert-Owen in the TT... I expect good things out of her but didn't quite expect 4th!

[FlashUNC]

Toughest rider of 2017 is Lauren Dolan. Holy crap.

I'll spare the images on the forum, just Google it and know you've been warned. To finish a TT course with injuries like that...wow.

[Frankwurst]

No doubt. That's beyond tough and her attitude towards the whole incident shows maturity beyond her years.:beer:

[regularguy412]

Toughest rider of 2017 is Lauren Dolan. Holy crap.

I'll spare the images on the forum, just Google it and know you've been warned. To finish a TT course with injuries like that...wow.

WHOA!

Worse than Johnny Hoogerland in the Tour a few years back. And I thot THAT was bad.

Mike in AR:beer:

[BobO]

Damn,... Tough kid. :eek:

[galgal]

That is one tough 18 year old! Hats off and hoping she has a speedy recovery. Horrible crash, thank god her injuries weren't worse. Can't imagine what her parents must have felt, were surely watching their kid race on her birthday.

[cmbicycles]

Toughest rider of 2017 is Lauren Dolan. Holy crap.

I'll spare the images on the forum, just Google it and know you've been warned. To finish a TT course with injuries like that...wow.

And she still only finished, what 2 and a half minutes down in the race. Impressive.

[kramnnim]

Tom! <3

[MattTuck]

Roglic is still amazing to me. From a junior world champion in ski jumping to professional cyclist. The ven diagram of traits for those two sports cannot have more than a sliver of overlap. I guess being light is good in both, but other than that... explosive short effort with finesse.... vs. brutal endurance over hours.

[FlashUNC]

Has anyone had a better year than Tom Dumoulin? World TT champ, Giro win. Ye Gods he's killing it.

[fiamme red]

Has anyone had a better year than Tom Dumoulin? World TT champ, Giro win.Van Avermaet? Froome?

[galgal]

TD almost caught up with Froome, wow. Props to Rohan Dennis for finishing 8th despite crashing.
Predictions for road race?

[Bwana]

Has anyone had a better year than Tom Dumoulin? World TT champ, Giro win. Ye Gods he's killing it.

How about just Sunweb in general? :eek:

[kramnnim]

I hope Matthews wins, for a Sunweb sweep. :hello:

[MattTuck]

Here are the favorites, according to paddy power.

[cderalow]

Here are the favorites, according to paddy power.



Sagan wins he'd be the first to threepeat right?

not first to win three times, but three in a row?

3rd or 4th to manage it three times as well.

Pretty limited crowd in that group.

[BdaGhisallo]

Sagan wins he'd be the first to threepeat right?

not first to win three times, but three in a row?

3rd or 4th to manage it three times as well.

Pretty limited crowd in that group.

You are correct. Several have two in a row but nobody won three in a row.

[echappist]

Here are the favorites, according to paddy power.

Sagan probably won't be on top form as he's sick. I don't rate him as highly. Kwaitskowski has been dangerous all year.

The course is too hilly for Gavaria, and GvA doesn't look as good as he did earlier in the year.

Kwaitkowski, Trentin, and Alaphilippe will be in the top five.

On the women's side, i'm sure the Dutch will run riot

[KarlC]

Sagan probably won't be on top form as he's sick. I don't rate him as highly.

Bora says otherwise .....


http://www.velonews.com/2017/09/news/bora-refutes-reports-says-sagan-healthy-bergen-worlds_448541


.

[FlashUNC]

Awful tough to freelance three years in a row. I would love to see a repeat of Milan-SanRemo personally.

[echappist]

Awful tough to freelance three years in a row. I would love to see a repeat of Milan-SanRemo personally.

The thing is, World Championships aren't Northern Classics, and the action doesn't really occur until the last 20km for most of the races (well, except for last year when they had 30 mph crosswind). That in its very nature allows riders to get carried along by other teams. Sagan can keep his powders dry for 250 kms, and then go to the front when it maters.

[FlashUNC]

The thing is, World Championships aren't Northern Classics, and the action doesn't really occur until the last 20km for most of the races (well, except for last year when they had 30 mph crosswind). That in its very nature allows riders to get carried along by other teams. Sagan can keep his powders dry for 250 kms, and then go to the front when it maters.

Milan-SanRemo isn't a Northern Classic, and played out pretty much exactly that way, as it does every year. And this year the Tactical Buffalo got outplayed by Kwiatkowski at the line.

There's a 3k-ish run in from that last hill, so very similar to the finale of SanRemo (I know, the Poggio is 7k from the line, but the profile is similar-ish), with a downhill and then a short flat stretch to the line. Be curious to see how guys play it, again, a lot like SanRemo, after 260k in the legs and a hill that I'm sure is going to hurt.

[ultraman6970]

I was checking at the rosters by country and this year's elite race feels like there's no favs at all, like anything can happen...

Rigoberto Uran.
Peter Sagan.
Gaviria
GVA.
TD???? this sucker is flying, he should be the designated rider for the dutch in a matter of fact he could get to the line solo, and that could make us forget Froome big time :p

[galgal]

Toughest rider of 2017 is Lauren Dolan. Holy crap.

I'll spare the images on the forum, just Google it and know you've been warned. To finish a TT course with injuries like that...wow.

This might have come up before, but might be fun to have year-end PL vote on rider/team of the year in various categories? I'm with Flash on toughest rider of the year.

[echappist]

Milan-SanRemo isn't a Northern Classic, and played out pretty much exactly that way, as it does every year. And this year the Tactical Buffalo got outplayed by Kwiatkowski at the line.


my point was that Sagan could free lance for a good 250 km, being almost invisible, before making a move. Such free lancing doesn't work in the Northern Classics


There's a 3k-ish run in from that last hill, so very similar to the finale of SanRemo (I know, the Poggio is 7k from the line, but the profile is similar-ish), with a downhill and then a short flat stretch to the line. Be curious to see how guys play it, again, a lot like SanRemo, after 260k in the legs and a hill that I'm sure is going to hurt.

the profile is anything but similar. The lead-in has about 500 m of elevation gain, and each lap has 250 m of elevation gain/lap. There's a 1.5 km long, 6.5% hill (which is immediately preceded by a mile-long 4% hill) every single lap for 12 laps. If anything, it'd be the most similar to how the Mendrisio, Verona, or Firenze courses played out. 3500 m of total climbing whittles down the peloton. Add to the fact that it may rain, the race would probably come down to a very small group sprint.

[MattTuck]

I am kind of hoping it is someone new. Nothing against Kwiatkowski or Sagan, just would like to see the rainbow stripes on someone new.

What if it were Dumoulin in the road race as well? Is there precedent for someone winning both at the same time in the modern era?

[FlashUNC]

my point was that Sagan could free lance for a good 250 km, being almost invisible, before making a move. Such free lancing doesn't work in the Northern Classics



the profile is anything but similar. The lead-in has about 500 m of elevation gain, and each lap has 250 m of elevation gain/lap. There's a 1.5 km long, 6.5% hill (which is immediately preceded by a mile-long 4% hill) every single lap for 12 laps. If anything, it'd be the most similar to how the Mendrisio, Verona, or Firenze courses played out. 3500 m of total climbing whittles down the peloton. Add to the fact that it may rain, the race would probably come down to a very small group sprint.

I was comparing literally within the last 10k of the course. Yes, the overall route is hillier and that will whittle the field down, but my expectation the finale will play out a lot like MSR does some years. A small, select group over the final hill, jockeying it out for what must be an agonizing sprint to the line.

Those last 3-5k aren't twins, but they're definitely kissing cousins. The biggest difference being the longer run-in to the finish on the flat after the final bump.
https://d2o9doy8pqmlel.cloudfront.net/media/l/1170x1170/1504441212/bergen2017-3-rrcircuit-v6.jpg

http://cdn.cyclingstage.com/images/milan-san-remo/1km.jpg

[echappist]

I am kind of hoping it is someone new. Nothing against Kwiatkowski or Sagan, just would like to see the rainbow stripes on someone new.

What if it were Dumoulin in the road race as well? Is there precedent for someone winning both at the same time in the modern era?

unprecedented. The ITT championship only started in the early 90's, so not that many to have contested it. Olano and Indurain probably came the closest

[rustychisel]

Sagan, or if he's not strong, that looks like a hill for Michael Matthews. So I'll be parochial and say 'Go the Bling'.

[colbyh]

What if it were Dumoulin in the road race as well? Is there precedent for someone winning both at the same time in the modern era?

Would be so great to see, he had so much power in the ITT it definitely seems possible.

Uran or Martin would also be great to see. Really I'd just like to see someone new in WC stripes.

[echappist]

Would be so great to see, he had so much power in the ITT it definitely seems possible.

Uran or Martin would also be great to see. Really I'd just like to see someone new in WC stripes.
Uran would be a good bet. he could have gotten on the podium in 2013 had it not bee for sliding out on the descent.

Would love to see Martin wear Rainbow stripes

[ultraman6970]

Martin... Dan martin??? IMO Martin is not a classic rider that's why he is not one of the favs for this race, thats why Belgium and Netherlands are always the favs for world cups, in a matter of fact to me Gilbert has more chances than Martin to podium just because of his characteristics.

Somebody said that Sagan was going to freelance, actually that's what he will do for sure, and the teams gonna have to take him with them because the WC and a classics race are totally different.

IMO it will happens something similar than what happened in Richmond, the last climb will decide the race. Totally see TD dropping everybody uphill and doing the last 10km solo, actually he looks so well that I doubt a bunch of riders together arent going to be enough to catch him at all.

[echappist]

Martin... Dan martin??? IMO Martin is not a classic rider that's why he is not one of the favs for this race, thats why Belgium and Netherlands are always the favs for world cups, in a matter of fact to me Gilbert has more chances than Martin to podium just because of his characteristics.

Somebody said that Sagan was going to freelance, actually that's what he will do for sure, and the teams gonna have to take him with them because the WC and a classics race are totally different.

IMO it will happens something similar than what happened in Richmond, the last climb will decide the race. Totally see TD dropping everybody uphill and doing the last 10km solo, actually he looks so well that I doubt a bunch of riders together arent going to be enough to catch him at all.

I don't recall any last Dutchman wearing the rainbow stripes in the past 20 years, if not 30. May have to go all the way back to Jan Raas

[cadence90]

unprecedented. The ITT championship only started in the early 90's, so not that many to have contested it. Olano and Indurain probably came the closest
Olano is the only man to have won gold in both: RR 1995; TT 1998.

But I guess that some gifts were exchanged in 1995 since as you say Olano won gold in the RR and Indurain silver, while Indurain won gold in the TT and Olano silver.

I don't recall any last Dutchman wearing the rainbow stripes in the past 20 years, if not 30. May have to go all the way back to Jan Raas
Yes, surprisingly a long time. The last Dutchman was Joop Zoetemelk, 1985.
.
.

[ultraman6970]

Yeah but as teams they always go right there with the belgians. Spain has a team that is weak IMO... same france and italy. To me the world champion with come of from ND or Belgium plus Mr Sagan.

[Polyglot]

One thing that nobody has mentioned but that the bookies have noticed is the home country advantage. It does not matter where you race, when racing in home, you will always have an additional spur to exceed yourself, even if in nothing more than a support role. I think this is why the bookies give Boassen Hagen such high odds. The weather in Bergen also favors those who are accustomed to rather harsh weather (Dutch, Belgian, Scandinavians, Sagan...). I have been to Bergen and Norway many times and the weather truly is unique

[GregL]

But I guess that some gifts were exchanged in 1995 since as you say Olano won gold in the RR and Indurain silver, while Indurain won gold in the TT and Olano silver.
Not so much gifts as good team tactics. Olano attacked late in the road race. Indurain sat on Pantani's wheel, forcing Pantani to either sit up or chase and pull Indurain up to his team mate. It was a classic two-on-one, well executed by the Spanish team.

Greg

[echappist]

One thing that nobody has mentioned but that the bookies have noticed is the home country advantage. It does not matter where you race, when racing in home, you will always have an additional spur to exceed yourself, even if in nothing more than a support role. I think this is why the bookies give Boassen Hagen such high odds. The weather in Bergen also favors those who are accustomed to rather harsh weather (Dutch, Belgian, Scandinavians, Sagan...). I have been to Bergen and Norway many times and the weather truly is unique
EBH of 2011 would have been great here. EBH of today? I'm not as sure



Yes, surprisingly a long time. The last Dutchman was Joop Zoetemelk, 1985.


wonder which will happen first. Next Dutch winner of the men's road race (Olympic or UCI) or the next Dutch winner of the World Cup or Euro. The Dutch cyclists have a bit of head start, as it'll be at least another three years before the next Euro.

[cadence90]

wonder which will happen first. Next Dutch winner of the men's road race (Olympic or UCI) or the next Dutch winner of the World Cup or Euro. The Dutch cyclists have a bit of head start, as it'll be at least another three years before the next Euro.
I think I would have to go with a cyclist. The NED collapse in football is pretty shocking and appears to be continuing. I think the FIFA rankings are a joke, but still...NED are at their lowest ranking ever, and are now behind such powerhouses as Poland, Switzerland, Northern Ireland, Iceland, Ukraine, Iran, Turkey, USA....:eek:
.
.

[colbyh]

Martin... Dan martin??? IMO Martin is not a classic rider that's why he is not one of the favs for this race, thats why Belgium and Netherlands are always the favs for world cups, in a matter of fact to me Gilbert has more chances than Martin to podium just because of his characteristics.

Dan Martin has won LBL and Lombardia, he might not be a pure classics rider by any means but he can get up the hilly ones when he wants to. And of course PG is a better bet but we were talking about outsiders that we'd like to see wear rainbow stripes for the first time.

[BdaGhisallo]

I am watching the last few km of the Junior Women's RR and some of them are using some really wide bars considering their stature. Interesting.

[echappist]

that was helluva final lap.

[cadence90]

Fantastic Women's Junior TT/RR double for Elena Pirrone, ITA!

:banana:

[weisan]

Awesome finish at the U23 Men's race today.

[echappist]

Fantastic Women's Junior TT/RR double for Elena Pirrone, ITA!

:banana:

think the Dutch will take it tomorrow. I think that'll go well next to the Euro Cup their women's team won

[cadence90]

think the Dutch will take it tomorrow. I think that'll go well next to the Euro Cup their women's team won

Could very well be. I will try to find it on TV somehow. I don't know much about women's racing, but the NED team does look strong, but ITA and USA do as well, right?

8 BLAAK Chantal NED
9 BRAND Lucinda NED
10 ENSING Janneke NED
11 PIETERS Amy NED
12 VAN DER BREGGEN Anna NED
13 VAN DIJK Ellen NED
14 VAN VLEUTEN Annemiek NED
15 VOS Marianne NED

16 GUARNIER Megan USA
17 HALL Katharine USA
18 NEBEN Amber Leone USA
19 RIVERA Coryn USA
20 STEPHENS Lauren USA
21 WILES Tayler USA
22 WINDER Ruth USA

23 BALSAMO Elisa ITA
24 BERTIZZOLO Sofia ITA
25 BRONZINI Giorgia ITA
26 CECCHINI Elena ITA
27 GUDERZO Tatiana ITA
28 LONGO BORGHINI Elisa ITA
29 RATTO Rossella ITA


Whoa, I just looked on the UCI website...the Dutch women are killer!
.

[echappist]

Also Poland with Niewiadoma.

Dutch to take 2 of the three podiums, with Niewiadoma completing the podium
U.S.A. and perhaps Italy to round out top 5/wild card winners

Coverage on Eurosport. Not sure who covers this stateside. You can probably get free coverage by going to the German youtube site (via VPN)

ETA: it's on NBCSN's "Olympic Channel"

[cadence90]

^
Thank you. I don't know the Polish rider.

I don't think I can get the Olympic Channel; I will have to see. If not hopefully I can get RAI or Eurosport through Steephill TV.

[choke]

I think it will definitely be an orange podium. I would think Anna vdB but realisticly pretty much every one has the potential to win.

Kasia could be up there as well....or maybe Elisa Longo-Borghini. I can't really see any Americans but anything is possible.

If you have a VPN, set it to Canada and go to the UCI Channel on YouTube....you can watch all the races live there.

[cadence90]

I think it will definitely be an orange podium. I would think Anna vdB but realisticly pretty much every one has the potential to win.

Kasia could be up there as well....or maybe Elisa Longo-Borghini. I can't really see any Americans but anything is possible.

If you have a VPN, set it to Canada and go to the UCI Channel on YouTube....you can watch all the races live there.

I am not computer-savvy, and can't figure out how to install a VPN (I even had to look up the term just now), but fortunately I am getting RAI in perfect HD through firstone.tv through steephil.tv. :banana:

[weisan]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sagan-im-not-in-my-best-shape-after-my-sickness/

[ultraman6970]

With sagan you never know... well could be a bluff

[weisan]

Actually, Sagan is fairly predictable. He seldom deviates from his usual path. The problem is, even if you know what he's going to do in advance, there's nothing much you can do about it except choosing to ride against him and making sure he doesn't win.

[Mackers]

-

[echappist]

that's unfortunate... really like Gaunier

they are massing at the front, marshaling. would have preferred to see them send out a rider into the break instead

[echappist]

this is what hubris looks like: one rider from the U.S. dragging the whole field, with 4 GB and 5 Dutch riders (both groups having representation in the break) sitting comfortably behind

[echappist]

that's the race deciding move

[choke]

Wow...who would have guessed that ending? The Dutch women ride so well in the WC.

[echappist]

Wow...who would have guessed that ending? The Dutch women ride so well in the WC.

And they actually ride as a team, both in the sense of tactics and in team cohesion. Blaak initially got away after a group containing VdB and van Vleuten was brought back. She and two others dangled off the front for a good 8 kms and was swept up when the real climbers threw down. Already impressive to have hang tough on the climb.

Had the Dutch been more selfish, they'd have gotten one more medal. Surely there was no way Blaak could have been brought back with 2km left, and that would have been the perfect time to attack or up the pace to get another medal, but they opted to make sure they got a win.

[choke]

The Dutch and the Italians are both good at riding for the team....a win by one is a win for all. Chantal was a deserving winner, she did a lot of work earlier and came back from a crash.

Here's an interesting tidbit:
WC RR - Chantal Blaak
WC ITT - Annemiek van Vleuten
Euro Champ RR - Marianne Vos
Euro Champ ITT - Ellen van Dijk
And of course Anna vdB with the Olympic RR

That was a great ride by Susanne Andersen, she's only 19 and finished 7th.

[harlond]

If tomorrow's champion produces a ride half as gutsy, savvy, and tough as Chantal Blaak's ride today, it will be a great race.

[weisan]

That Junior champ is dominant and demonstrated riding maturity beyond his category.

[cadence90]

That Junior champ is dominant and demonstrated riding maturity beyond his category.
He really is. His finish line gesture was very Zabel-like.

Next year's Innsbruck-Tirol course looks brutal:

The 2018 Road World Championships route looks set to be one of the toughest in history, with organisers of the race in the Austrian city of Innsbruck including ramps of up to 25 per cent in the elite men’s road race.

The official routes for all of the 2018 events, which take place from September 23-30, were revealed at the 2017 Worlds in Bergen with the elite men’s road race set to cover almost 5,000m of climbing over a distance of 265km.

http://innsbruck-tirol2018.com/en/:eek:
.
.

[echappist]

He really is. His finish line gesture was very Zabel-like.

Next year's Innsbruck-Tirol course looks brutal:

:eek:
.
.

holy s***, looks like the message is: Colombians only, rest needs not apply. Though Froome is probably circling this in his calendar...

sustained sections at 10+%, wow... Not sure it would actually make for exciting racing.

[cadence90]

holy s***, looks like the message is: Colombians only, rest needs not apply. Though Froome is probably circling this in his calendar...

sustained sections at 10+%, wow... Not sure it would actually make for exciting racing.

No kidding on all counts.

[ultraman6970]

Actually a route that contador could win and now he retired, good for valverde if he can make it back from the dead... now we have TD aswell... sagan wont make it in that WC at all. Sky has a good team for that one, just do what they do in the tour and the britts could win this one aswell maybe with froomey?

[cadence90]

Actually a route that contador could win and now he retired, good for valverde if he can make it back from the dead... now we have TD aswell... sagan wont make it in that WC at all. Sky has a good team for that one, just do what they do in the tour and the britts could win this one aswell maybe with froomey?

Sagan next year...no way.

ESP might count on Landa rather than Valverde? COL will surely contend, and FRA could be strong.

As for today, I don't think ITA has a shot, but maybe Trentin will have a good race.
It would be fantastic if Daniele Bennati has a great day; he's been nominated captain and today is his 37th birthday.


*****

Wow, this rocky/watery landscape around Bergen is spectacular. It would be a great place to visit someday.
.

[ultraman6970]

Hmm... it is my idea of the whole dutch team is spread all over the place?

[cadence90]

Yes. They were together at the front for about one minute, with BEL. But things have started for real just now.

Hey ultra, Silvio Martinello was talking about next year at Innsbruck, and he tapped Valverde as a very realistic favorite, as you thought. He also said that Nibali has a huge circle around that date.



Those light blue Dogmas that Pinarello provided the 3 ITA Sky riders (Moscon, Puccio, Viviani) are pretty nice looking.
.

[echappist]

Sagan next year...no way.

ESP might count on Landa rather than Valverde? COL will surely contend, and FRA could be strong.

As for today, I don't think ITA has a shot, but maybe Trentin will have a good race.
It would be fantastic if Daniele Bennati has a great day; he's been nominated captain and today is his 37th birthday.


*****

Wow, this rocky/watery landscape around Bergen is spectacular. It would be a great place to visit someday.
.

don't forget the architecture. lovely place

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[ultraman6970]

The dutch are screwed, Lars boom cant hold in the climbs apparently, they have to start chasing like "man possessed" hehehe to get TD to do something... thing i would love to see.

Who is the quicker in the front group? the Spaniard?

Comming back to the 18' worlds, this was perfect for purito aswell, landa can't do drag racing that ive seen, so valverde should be the man. Hope doesnt happen what happen a few years ago tho...

[echappist]

Indeed. That group of original wooden houses where the Hanseatic League was headquartered looks very nice, even if obviously touristy now. Have you been there?

Very nice (but sad also) to see the Scarponi homages on the road.
He would have been 38 tomorrow.
.

i'm horribly poorly traveled :(, though I would love to

Do remind me, did you used to live in Italy?


------------------------------------------
alright folks, time to throw down picks

Kwiatek, GvA, Uran
Sagan, and Alaphilippe

edit: Matthews in, Uran out

[echappist]

Gruppo compacto

hopefully the hill is selective enough; perhaps someone will take a flyer on that cobbled section with 4 km to go

[cadence90]

i'm horribly poorly traveled :(, though I would love to

Do remind me, did you used to live in Italy?


------------------------------------------
alright folks, time to throw down picks

Kwiatek, GvA, Uran
Sagan, and Alaphilippe

Yes. Born and grew up there, still return often, and hopefully forever at some point.

So, I'll pick Bennati on his birthday! Or Moscon or Ulissi or Viviani...any ITA rider... :D

Whoever wins, this entire WC has been so much better than last year. Bergen did a great job.
.
.

[cadence90]

Gruppo compacto

hopefully the hill is selective enough; perhaps someone will take a flyer on that cobbled section with 4 km to go
Hopefully Sagan won't three-peat. I like him enough, but just want to see someone else. Viviani may actually have a shot.

Wow...Ala has wings. Good stuff now with Moscon!

Too bad the moving video went down, but Ala looked massively strong. Whoa...what happened in that dark time???

Sagan.... :crap::crap::crap:
What a disappointment for Kristoff and Norway.
.
.

[echappist]

did Kristoff get that?

[kramnnim]

Wow, Sagan managed to overcome his terrible race tactics and won...

#threepeter

[ultraman6970]

Chappist...Nope he did not!!! spectacular win!!!!

[chengher87]

Infu****credible

[echappist]

Yes. Born and grew up there, still return often, and hopefully forever at some point.


which part? And lucky you :) I'd like to retire and live in Lucca or on Lago Como
------------------------------------------------

Good work by Sagan, he was nowhere to be found on the climb and saved all of it for the sprint. impressive

[tv_vt]

Wow!

[cadence90]

I'm with FlashUNC on this one:
when the live video went down with 2k to go, "they" secretly shuttled Sagan up to the front on a motorcycle. :D

Seriously, though, really disappointed that Kristoff lost by such a small margin.
.
.

[enr1co]

Yeoowww!!! What a race - the power these guys have after ~160 miles.!
A rainbow for Kristoff would have been awesome but great for Sagan especially after the TDF BS disqual fiasco.
So glad Alaphillipe dropped Moscon's/ Sky's cheating a*s. Hope they DQ him whatever place he ended up.

Lastly, what a beautiful host city for the worlds! Gotta take advantage of one of the $399 RT Norwegian Air fares out of Oakland and see Bergen and other parts of Norway!

[cadence90]

which part? And lucky you :) I'd like to retire and live in Lucca or on Lago Como
------------------------------------------------

Good work by Sagan, he was nowhere to be found on the climb and saved all of it for the sprint. impressive

Venezia...not really a cycling city, but beautiful nonetheless. :)

Lucca or Como are definitely two of the best, most livable places.

------------------------------------------------

The RAI post-race commentators are livid over the 2km video black-out. It's hilarious, but they're right that it would have been nice to see that stretch....

Apparently yesterday in the press conference Sagan was asked what his predictions were, and he replied, "Well, ask me tomorrow at 5:00PM and I will tell you precisely." :D
.
.

[echappist]

Venezia...not really a cycling city, but beautiful nonetheless. :)

Lucca or Como are definitely two of the best, most livable places.


I can see now why you like your "home region" wine of Amarones

The other day I saw a really good Brunello on sale and bought a few bottles, but somehow I think it'll be money wasted, as the finer qualities of it would most likely be lost on me. But gimme a decent Amarone any day


------------------------------------------------


The RAI post-race commentators are livid over the 2km video black-out. It's hilarious, but they're right that it would have been nice to see that stretch....

Apparently yesterday in the press conference Sagan was asked what his predictions were, and he replied, "Well, ask me tomorrow at 5:00PM and I will tell you precisely." :D
.
.

:)

How did Trentin do?

[pjm]

:cool:

[Elefantino]

He's the greatest rider of his generation.

And it's a pretty good generation.

[cadence90]

I can see now why you like your "home region" wine of Amarones

The other day I saw a really good Brunello on sale and bought a few bottles, but somehow I think it'll be money wasted, as the finer qualities of it would most likely be lost on me. But gimme a decent Amarone any day


------------------------------------------------



:)

How did Trentin do?

No, a really good Brunello is never money wasted! :) Enjoy it.




Trentin finished 4th. :(

It is interesting to hear Moreno Argentin, Petacchi, Ballan, and others comment on the last 2K. This (these) Sagan finish(es) was (are) as far from Argentin in Colorado Springs as one can get. That was an amazing show of force victory; I still remember it vividly. But they are right I think, in hindsight, in saying that a certain timidity, by many nations, allowed this particular finish to occur.

Kristoff looks so sad on the podium.

I do think that Sagan's dedication/words regarding Scarponi were very humble and very classy. It was a heartfelt gesture, certainly. Good for him; he's a good guy, and a good character imo.
.
.

[echappist]

I enjoyed seeing him mature and mellow out a bit over the years.

Too bad about Trentin. He was a good dark horse pick, but Italy has a new classics star in Moscon.

[GregL]

Hopefully they can reconstruct the video that was unavailable in the last 2-3km. It would be great to see how the finish unfolded before the final kilometer of the race. Why does this image come to mind?

http://wizbangblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Airplane-Movie1-500x312.jpg

Greg

[cadence90]

I enjoyed seeing him mature and mellow out a bit over the years.

Too bad about Trentin. He was a good dark horse pick, but Italy has a new classics star in Moscon.

Very true. I think Moscon will be very seriously considered in P-R, etc. starting next year...and he's still young at 23.
.
.

[weisan]

The world celebrates!!!

[regularguy412]

Hopefully they can reconstruct the video that was unavailable in the last 2-3km. It would be great to see how the finish unfolded before the final kilometer of the race. Why does this image come to mind?

http://wizbangblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Airplane-Movie1-500x312.jpg

Greg

With several hundred smart phones likely going within the last 2K, just gotta piece them together.

Mike in AR:beer:

[Drmojo]

no snark?
disappointing

[Mzilliox]

That Sagan is overrated, sick to start the race, not in the front for the final, somehow wins. hes got some ok talent, hes almost a natural or something... but yeah, totally overrated :fight::bike::butt::rolleyes:

[pjm]

Is it possible that the weight savings from Sagan's haircut made the difference?:cool:

[MaraudingWalrus]

That Sagan is overrated, sick to start the race, not in the front for the final, somehow wins. hes got some ok talent, hes almost a natural or something... but yeah, totally overrated :fight::bike::butt::rolleyes:

To play Flash's advocate here, it IS possible for someone to be, simultaneously, both overrated and extraordinarily good.

That's not the takeaway I normally have from Flash's comments, nor is it my thinking on Sagan...but perhaps an argument that Sagan is overrated could be defended...saying he's won nothing impressive is not a defensible position any more...and hasn't been for a while.


However, ceasing to play Flash's advocate here, I'm thoroughly blown away with Sagan's performances, and I would argue that he might be underrated. We might not be impressed enough with some of the stuff he pulls off. #HotTakes

[echappist]

Is it possible that the weight savings from Sagan's haircut made the difference?:cool:

doubtful

but aero savings from shaving the beard? likely :)

[FlashUNC]

My assessment of Sagan is slightly off. He's not a poor man's Eddy Merckx, he's a rich man's Oscar Friere. Weird that gets the fandom it does, but whatever.

High fives for learning over the last few months to hold his line in a sprint, and it only took him the better part of a decade to realize that sitting in might be a good idea to win sprints at the end of long races. At this rate he might be a real contender for Roubaix by 2022.

I can't wait to see him ride Lombardia in the world champ kit. Oh wait, he doesn't ride all the Monuments. Oscar Camezind's double is safe for now.

Broken clock is right once a year it seems.

[echappist]

My assessment of Sagan is slightly off. He's not a poor man's Eddy Merckx, he's a rich man's Oscar Friere. Weird that gets the fandom it does, but whatever.

High fives for learning over the last few months to hold his line in a sprint, and it only took him the better part of a decade to realize that sitting in might be a good idea to win sprints at the end of long races. At this rate he might be a real contender for Roubaix by 2022.

I can't wait to see him ride Lombardia in the world champ kit. Oh wait, he doesn't ride all the Monuments. Oscar Camezind's double is safe for now.

Broken clock is right once a year it seems.

not only are you uncouth, you are also ignorant

pretty sure Paolo Bettini won Lombardia wearing rainbow stripes

[oldpotatoe]

That Sagan is overrated, sick to start the race, not in the front for the final, somehow wins. hes got some ok talent, hes almost a natural or something... but yeah, totally overrated :fight::bike::butt::rolleyes:

Was sick and no jacket from his swammy on a cool day? Must be end of year. "I still have Friends in the group"...classy words about Scarponi and dedicated to wife who is expecting their first bambino(a)...I guess he's growing up.

[Vientomas]

Yup...

[Mzilliox]

Was sick and no jacket from his swammy on a cool day? Must be end of year. "I still have Friends in the group"...classy words about Scarponi and dedicated to wife who is expecting their first bambino(a)...I guess he's growing up.

i think he is growing up, but he will always be a bit of the absurdist. thats why i like him so much. as serious as everyone takes all this, those who comment about him and his riding, he seems to see it for what it is, just some bike racing. I love watching this guy ride!

[bobswire]

i think he is growing up, but he will always be a bit of the absurdist. thats why i like him so much. as serious as everyone takes all this, those who comment about him and his riding, he seems to see it for what it is, just some bike racing. I love watching this guy ride!

Ditto!

[echappist]

btw, last 4km from the helicopter. I guess their radio signal malfunctioned?

http://www.steephill.tv/players/720/twitter/?title=Last+4+Km+Elite+Men%27s+RR+-+shot+from+the+helicopter&dashboard=road-cycling-world-championships&id=CyclingHubTV/status/912018053927489539&yr=2017

[weisan]

Moscon disqualified.

[Chris]

Moscon disqualified.

As he should be

[weisan]

That Colombian rider must have felt really bad as he watched helplessly with Moscon being towed away by his team car.

[homagesilkhope]

pretty sure Paolo Bettini won Lombardia wearing rainbow stripes

Yep, 2006.

[mcteague]

My assessment of Sagan is slightly off. He's not a poor man's Eddy Merckx, he's a rich man's Oscar Friere. Weird that gets the fandom it does, but whatever.

High fives for learning over the last few months to hold his line in a sprint, and it only took him the better part of a decade to realize that sitting in might be a good idea to win sprints at the end of long races. At this rate he might be a real contender for Roubaix by 2022.

I can't wait to see him ride Lombardia in the world champ kit. Oh wait, he doesn't ride all the Monuments. Oscar Camezind's double is safe for now.

Broken clock is right once a year it seems.

Here is a well balanced, IMO, article on Sagan prior to his 3rd Rainbow stripes jersey.

https://rouleur.cc/editorial/peter-sagan-great/

Tim

[cal_len1]

Lastly, what a beautiful host city for the worlds! Gotta take advantage of one of the $399 RT Norwegian Air fares out of Oakland and see Bergen and other parts of Norway!

Earlier this year, I got the chance to bike around in the fjords north of Bergen for 3 days, 10/10 would recommend. The only thing is that there are something like 50 days of sunlight per year in Bergen, so you need to schedule your vacation carefully. But when it's sunny, it's a crazy beautiful place.

[FlashUNC]

not only are you uncouth, you are also ignorant

pretty sure Paolo Bettini won Lombardia wearing rainbow stripes

I'm sorry if I insulted your Oscar Freire fandom. He was quite the rider when he was healthy. Wished he'd had a chance to win more, but the body does what it does. And yes, an oversight on Bettini. My apologies to another great champion.

But is Peter lining up for Lombardia? Or still too many hills for the greatest bike riderz evar?

[MattTuck]

Rode this morning, planned to watch this just now. Unfortunately, Eurosport's link to the eurosport player revealed a big picture of the podium, spoiling it for me.

Ugh. Watched the last 10km. With the several KM gap when cameras were lost. Glad I did not invest a lot of time in this, I would have been highly annoyed.

Will have to read the recaps for all the details.

Damn, hats off to Sagan for another year in the rainbow stripes. I thought the hills would have been too much for him honestly, but maybe they were not as bad as reported, or there was enough time after the descent to lessen the impact.

Agreed, would like to see Sagan take on Lomardia. Why not? He's in good shape, why not use it.

Going to throw it out there, but one has to wonder at this point what value the the national teams are providing in the world championships. If Sagan can win 3 years in a row (he's obviously strong, not suggesting otherwise) with a fairly weak team. What are the other teams doing wrong?

It feels a bit like the tour de france, in the sense that teams are very risk averse and unwilling to make a big move... safer bet is to get your best rider to the finish in the group and hope that Sagan has a bad day.

[gasman]

not only are you uncouth, you are also ignorant

pretty sure Paolo Bettini won Lombardia wearing rainbow stripes

Personal insults are not appropriate or allowed by forum rules no matter how you feel.

[choke]

Going to throw it out there, but one has to wonder at this point what value the the national teams are providing in the world championships.If you doubt the value of a team, just watch the last 10k of the Women's Elite RR from yesterday. The Dutch women rode as a team and won precisely because they did. Chantal wasn't one of their protected riders but once she got clear the two other members of the team (arguably the top two favorites to win) in the breakaway did their part to keep her out front. The Italian team did much the same in the Junior Women's RR.

Sagan is a special case....he doesn't need a team to win. I don't think you can dismiss the value of a team because of his victories.

[colbyh]

I enjoyed seeing him mature and mellow out a bit over the years.

Too bad about Trentin. He was a good dark horse pick, but Italy has a new classics star in Moscon.

Don't forget, Moscon is the rider that was caught throwing N-bombs @ Kevin Reza and served a 6 week suspension for it. He's crazy talented but I have a hard time supporting the guy. Today's DQ doesn't help either.

[FlashUNC]

If you doubt the value of a team, just watch the last 10k of the Women's Elite RR from yesterday. The Dutch women rode as a team and won precisely because they did. Chantal wasn't one of their protected riders but once she got clear the two other members of the team (arguably the top two favorites to win) in the breakaway did their part to keep her out front. The Italian team did much the same in the Junior Women's RR.

Sagan is a special case....he doesn't need a team to win. I don't think you can dismiss the value of a team because of his victories.

And even if we're being kind, the Belgian and Italian teams are a mess of politics and trade team alliances.

[saab2000]

Comparing Peter Sagan and Oscar Freire is not a bad comparison. It seems likely Sagan will have a bigger career in the long run but who knows.

Mentioning Oscar Camenzind's Worlds/Lombardia double is like mentioning Milli Vanilli alongside other winners of music awards. Holds no water. At least the other cheaters of his generation seemed to win other things.

Sagan is a generational talent and he continues to prove it. I'd love to see him line up next week for the Lombardia.

[cadence90]

For those who have not heard Sagan's post-race interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6oOfJAbEJo)...I for one fail to see what there is to dislike about this guy, but to each their own I suppose.

:confused:
.
.

[oldpotatoe]

For those who have not heard Sagan's post-race interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6oOfJAbEJo)...I for one fail to see what there is to dislike about this guy, but to each their own I suppose.

:confused:
.
.

His 'history', grabbing a podium girls butt, having a 'farge you' tshirt

[cadence90]

His 'history', grabbing a podium girls butt, having a 'farge you' tshirt

Huh. There's a pretty high vitriol-to-offense ratio then, but I guess some really disliked Anquetil's "antics" too. Seems all pretty minor stuff to me.
.

[Elefantino]

Sagan did not take a knee for the national anthem.

[weisan]

Sagan did not take a knee for the national anthem.

I say we send him into exile to Monaco.

[weisan]

.
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/alexander-kristoff-of-norway-and-team-katusha-wins-the-final-sprint-picture-id463259408

https://cdn-cyclingtips.pressidium.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/CORVOS_00026628-001.jpg

http://timesofoman.com/uploads/images/2016/07/18/454529.jpg

http://www.steephill.tv/2016/tour-of-california/07-photo-finish-IMG_1905-1001.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/02/06/79/02067919cce7da8811c67ce59b62d46a--cycling-motivation-cycling-tips.jpg

http://cdn.velonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Peter-Sagan-and-Alexander-Kristoff.jpg

[tommyrod74]

I'm sorry if I insulted your Oscar Freire fandom. He was quite the rider when he was healthy. Wished he'd had a chance to win more, but the body does what it does. And yes, an oversight on Bettini. My apologies to another great champion.

But is Peter lining up for Lombardia? Or still too many hills for the greatest bike riderz evar?

"Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof."

- John Kenneth Galbraith

[nooneline]

Sagan is a special case....he doesn't need a team to win.

I dunno, I wondered who stitched things back together from 4km to 1km to go and when I watched the overhead footage, though I couldn't identify riders by name, I did see a white-and-blue Evade helmets at the front more than once. Albeit ones not wearing Slovakian jerseys.

[oldpotatoe]

I dunno, I wondered who stitched things back together from 4km to 1km to go and when I watched the overhead footage, though I couldn't identify riders by name, I did see a white-and-blue Evade helmets at the front more than once. Albeit ones not wearing Slovakian jerseys.

In the post race interview he said, 'I still have some friends in the pelOton", or words to that effect. National pride is one thing and who signs your check another. The 'team dynamics' at the worlds are extensive and complicated.

[echappist]

In the post race interview he said, 'I still have some friends in the pelOton", or words to that effect. National pride is one thing and who signs your check another. The 'team dynamics' at the worlds are extensive and complicated.

I saw a Dane pulling on the front for the last few Kms and wondered for whom that dude is working. Sagan's teammate, perhaps? Can't remember if Valgren was/is a teammate

[carpediemracing]

I dunno, I wondered who stitched things back together from 4km to 1km to go and when I watched the overhead footage, though I couldn't identify riders by name, I did see a white-and-blue Evade helmets at the front more than once. Albeit ones not wearing Slovakian jerseys.

I think they were the Italians, one of the few teams that are consistently super disciplined when it comes to the Worlds. In the past if an Italian wins they usually get a massive bonus/payout. The team is selected on national team loyalty, willingness to work for the designated leader, etc.

I read that Moscon and Bettiol were there to help Trentin for the bunch sprint:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/world-championships-trentin-not-satisfied-with-fourth-behind-sagan/

[carpediemracing]

I saw a Dane pulling on the front for the last few Kms and wondered for whom that dude is working. Sagan's teammate, perhaps? Can't remember if Valgren was/is a teammate

I think Valgren races for Astana but he may know Sagan or some other sprinter pretty well. Or he was just doing it to fly the Danish flag in a lapland race.

Historically the riders with small national squads tend to be mercenaries or ride for trade teams. One huge exception I can think of is the Irish riders in the Sean Kelly / Stephen Roche era. The two best riders were great friends, the others understood their place, and they worked really well together.

[MattTuck]

If you doubt the value of a team, just watch the last 10k of the Women's Elite RR from yesterday. The Dutch women rode as a team and won precisely because they did. Chantal wasn't one of their protected riders but once she got clear the two other members of the team (arguably the top two favorites to win) in the breakaway did their part to keep her out front. The Italian team did much the same in the Junior Women's RR.

Sagan is a special case....he doesn't need a team to win. I don't think you can dismiss the value of a team because of his victories.

My point wasn't that teams are irrelevant in bike racing. It was that in the men's elite road race, for whatever reason, the so called strong teams seem to come up short.

The last 5 years winners have gone: Portugal, Poland, Slovakia, Slovakia, Slovakia....

If you just look at the podiums, you get:
Slovakia: 3
Spain: 3
Australia: 3
Great Britain: 1
Belgium: 1
Norway: 1
Lithuania: 1
Portugal: 1
Poland: 1

Yes, 5 years is not a great sample size to look at. We could just as easily go on a run that sees Belgium win 5 in a row. Just saying that the recent past would suggest that maybe some new tactics would be a good idea for some of the "power house" teams.

[KarlC]

Looking at the backside line ......

The line which tells today's story. Their backsides, this line shows the difference between their bike throws.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BZcHK59lR3r

https://scontent-vie1-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/21909378_636062713448559_8321413644675973120_n.jpg

[enr1co]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaJGAboivHk

[GregL]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaJGAboivHk
This video should be a tutorial for anyone looking to improve their pack handling skills ahead of a sprint. Watch Sagan smoothly move up into third wheel ahead of the second-to-last corner. A beautiful move executed perfectly. That's where the race was won.

Greg

[nooneline]

I think they were the Italians, one of the few teams that are consistently super disciplined when it comes to the Worlds. In the past if an Italian wins they usually get a massive bonus/payout. The team is selected on national team loyalty, willingness to work for the designated leader, etc.

I read that Moscon and Bettiol were there to help Trentin for the bunch sprint:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/world-championships-trentin-not-satisfied-with-fourth-behind-sagan/

Oops, fake news on my part. I went back to the videotape. It wasn't the Italians, it was what looked like a Dane in a B-H evade, but it wasn't. Sagan had a bunch of trad teammates in the race but other than Postlberger, who was reeled in and holding on for dear life, none of them were in the front group.

[FlashUNC]

Huh. There's a pretty high vitriol-to-offense ratio then, but I guess some really disliked Anquetil's "antics" too. Seems all pretty minor stuff to me.
.

To borrow a Texas phrase. Its a whole lotta hat for relatively small cattle.

[acorn_user]

Hopefully they can reconstruct the video that was unavailable in the last 2-3km. It would be great to see how the finish unfolded before the final kilometer of the race. Why does this image come to mind?

http://wizbangblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Airplane-Movie1-500x312.jpg

Greg


HAHA LOL:banana:

[Mzilliox]

This video should be a tutorial for anyone looking to improve their pack handling skills ahead of a sprint. Watch Sagan smoothly move up into third wheel ahead of the second-to-last corner. A beautiful move executed perfectly. That's where the race was won.

Greg

good call, took me a few times to catch the move, as the heli was so far away, but you are right, he slipped into that gap perfectly then pounced.

[kramnnim]

Magnus Cort Neilsen was the Dane off the front there in the last km

[msngr]

Looking at the backside line ......

The line which tells today's story. Their backsides, this line shows the difference between their bike throws.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BZcHK59lR3r

https://scontent-vie1-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/21909378_636062713448559_8321413644675973120_n.jpg

Sagan has a great throw.

When I saw the replay, I commented that the difference might have been age/limberness. Sagan' wife is a dancer and I wonder if he incorporates dancing into his training.

[oldpotatoe]

Sagan has a great throw.

When I saw the replay, I commented that the difference might have been age/limberness. Sagan' wife is a dancer and I wonder if he incorporates dancing into his training.

Hubba hubba...:)

[GregL]

Sagan has a great throw.

When I saw the replay, I commented that the difference might have been age/limberness. Sagan' wife is a dancer and I wonder if he incorporates dancing into his training.
Did somebody say Sagan dancing? The lad is entertaining, both on and off the bike...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYUZIW0kEPM

[nooneline]

Magnus Cort Neilsen was the Dane off the front there in the last km

VN says it was Chris Juul-Jensen.

[weisan]

The thing about Sagan is he doesn't follow any "textbook" strategy, he's acting on pure instinct. Of course, as mortals, we can go back and look at what he did hindsight 20/20 and say, "Yeah, that's a classic move taken right off the page" but then when you ask those who race against him on the ground, many of which have several more years of experience or have been a pro much longer than he does, and knew just about every trick in the book, they were still blown away by his ability to go in and out of no man's land as he wish and emerge as victorious.

Raw talent, that's what it is.

100% organically grown raw talent. :D

When was the last time someone won the world championship three times...and not just three times, but three times in a row, in three different courses?

[nooneline]

When was the last time someone won the world championship three times...and not just three times, but three times in a row, in three different courses?

Marianne Vos won her 3rd road WC in 2013.
And her 3rd cx WC in 2010. And 3 more in a row after that.

[weisan]

Marianne Vos won her 3rd road WC in 2013.
And her 3rd cx WC in 2010. And 3 more in a row after that.

Oh yes! Another huge talent. :D

[kramnnim]

VN says it was Chris Juul-Jensen.

That makes more sense. #nevertrustreddit

[kramnnim]

Actually, it doesn't make sense, as Juul Jensen finished 2:32 down. I guess he may have stopped pedaling once he got caught...

Edit: It was Magnus Cort Nielsen, VN was going by what the sing-song UCI commentator was saying. Spanish commentators had it right.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/racing/world-championships-2017-mens-road-race-peter-sagan-the-great-race-report/#.WcmiAciGOUk

[PepeM]

The thing about Sagan is he doesn't follow any "textbook" strategy, he's acting on pure instinct.

Ah, that's how legends are made. The 'thing' with Sagan is that he is strong as ****. He can get to the end of a tough race and outsprint everyone. The only people who can outsprint him can't survive going up a speedbump.

[msngr]

When was the last time someone won the world championship three times...and not just three times, but three times in a row, in three different courses?

Just to be a jerk:
Prevot (2014-15) held all three outdoor cycling jerseys (road, mountain and cross). Pretty sure she was the only person to ever do this.

[weisan]

Just to be a jerk:
Prevot (2014-15) held all three outdoor cycling jerseys (road, mountain and cross). Pretty sure she was the only person to ever do this.

not jerk-y at all, thanks for pointing that out. what a talent she is!

[weisan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS2rw1G95u8

[jlwdm]

Just to be a jerk:
Prevot (2014-15) held all three outdoor cycling jerseys (road, mountain and cross). Pretty sure she was the only person to ever do this.

Hard to compare men's and women's titles.

Jeff

[mcteague]

He is unique, that is for sure.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/worlds17mrr-sgan-medal-1000.jpg

https://youtu.be/b0GQrkgTwF8

Tim

[Climb01742]

Interesting that we have two incredibly dominant riders today -- Froome and Sagan -- yet they're as different in skills and personalities as you can imagine. One seems like he actually enjoys it!;):banana::)

[MattTuck]

What's the over/under on a 4th consecutive win?

I think it almost certainly a bridge too far for the Slovak.

About next year's course:
The course for the Elite Men road race certainly lives up to the 2018 UCI Road World Championships motto “Riding the Heart of the Alps”: 265km with nearly 5,000 metres of climbing give an indication of just how tough and spectacular this event is set to be. Like the Junior Men road race, the Under 23 Men road race and the Elite Women road race, it will start in the town of Kufstein to the east of Innsbruck and include the Olympic Circuit to the south. This circuit is covered in all the road races between one and seven times depending on the category. The Men Elite, will tackle the Olympic Circuit seven times before heading through the city and up to the Hungerburg settlement in the north of the regional capital for a final decisive climb with sections of up to 25%. As with all other races at the 2018 UCI Road World Championships, the Men Elite Road Race will finish in the centre of Innsbruck between the theatre building and the Imperial Palace.

[bobswire]

Marianne Vos won her 3rd road WC in 2013.
And her 3rd cx WC in 2010. And 3 more in a row after that.

An apt comparison.

[FlashUNC]

Interesting that we have two incredibly dominant riders today -- Froome and Sagan -- yet they're as different in skills and personalities as you can imagine. One seems like he actually enjoys it!;):banana::)

Lol.

One is dominant in Grand Tours. The other wins literally just one race on the calendar. Weird one of the most dominant riders in the world can't win in the Spring when it matters.

[FL_MarkD]

Lol.

One is dominant in Grand Tours. The other wins literally just one race on the calendar. Weird one of the most dominant riders in the world can't win in the Spring when it matters.

Agree, patiently waiting on Froome to win in the spring ..... :rolleyes:

[Mark McM]

Lol.

One is dominant in Grand Tours. The other wins literally just one race on the calendar. Weird one of the most dominant riders in the world can't win in the Spring when it matters.

Huh?

This year alone, Sagan has won 3 single day races, 9 stage race stages, and the Points categories in 5 races. (He likely could have won more stages and perhaps another Points category if he hadn't been ejected from the Tour de France early in the race.)

Chris Froome won the GC category in 2 races, the Points and Combination category in 1 race, and only won 2 stage race road stages.

Froome and Sagan have different skill sets, so you can't draw a direct comparison between them. But claiming that the Sagan "wins literally just one race on the calendar" is completely wrong, and even saying he "can't win in the Spring" is wrong too, as he won the Spring Classic Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne this year, and the Tour of Flanders and Gent-Wevelgum last year.

When it comes simple length, the list of Sagan's wins is longer than the list of Froome's wins.

[MattTuck]

Lol.

One is dominant in Grand Tours. The other wins literally just one race on the calendar. Weird one of the most dominant riders in the world can't win in the Spring when it matters.

C'mon man. Let's not short change him. He's won a bunch of races this year.

KBK
2 stages at Tirreno Adriatico
1 stage at Tour of California
2 stages at Tour de Suisse
1 stage at Tour de France
1 stage at Tour of Poland
2 stages at the BinckBank Tour
Grand Prix Cycliste Quebec

Sure, only 2 of his other wins have come in one day races... but... hey, he's the preeminent classics rider of the modern era. Can't argue with facts.

Seriously though, he is a great rider and animates most races that he's in. But for sure, the World Championships have been the high point of his season this year. Last year, he did have significant wins throughout the year and in the spring.

The thing is, it is not for lack of talent or natural ability. If you added a stronger classics team and a bit more tactical guidance from the DS, I think he'd be killing it in the spring. If he'd have ended up on Quick-Step, oh boy.

That said, I think he is a sponsor's dream. He generally follows the Greg Lemond formula -- do well at the Tour and World Championships. I think Sagan enjoys the spring races, but I think the audience for those performances (even if they are more pure bike racing) are tiny compared to the global audience for the Tour in July.

And wearing the rainbow stripes is a huge draw for his personal brand and the team, in terms of mentions and spotlight.

He's doing a lot of things right, even if there were some questionable decisions this year. Honestly, he'd probably be two monuments heavier if not for a jacket in Belgium and taking one pull too many in Italy.


PS. BinckBank Tour is a real tour. Even though it sounds like someone just made it up.

[FlashUNC]

C'mon man. Let's not short change him. He's won a bunch of races this year.

KBK
2 stages at Tirreno Adriatico
1 stage at Tour of California
2 stages at Tour de Suisse
1 stage at Tour de France
1 stage at Tour of Poland
2 stages at the BinckBank Tour
Grand Prix Cycliste Quebec

Sure, only 2 of his other wins have come in one day races... but... hey, he's the preeminent classics rider of the modern era. Can't argue with facts.

Seriously though, he is a great rider and animates most races that he's in. But for sure, the World Championships have been the high point of his season this year. Last year, he did have significant wins throughout the year and in the spring.

The thing is, it is not for lack of talent or natural ability. If you added a stronger classics team and a bit more tactical guidance from the DS, I think he'd be killing it in the spring. If he'd have ended up on Quick-Step, oh boy.

That said, I think he is a sponsor's dream. He generally follows the Greg Lemond formula -- do well at the Tour and World Championships. I think Sagan enjoys the spring races, but I think the audience for those performances (even if they are more pure bike racing) are tiny compared to the global audience for the Tour in July.

And wearing the rainbow stripes is a huge draw for his personal brand and the team, in terms of mentions and spotlight.

He's doing a lot of things right, even if there were some questionable decisions this year. Honestly, he'd probably be two monuments heavier if not for a jacket in Belgium and taking one pull too many in Italy.


PS. BinckBank Tour is a real tour. Even though it sounds like someone just made it up.

To be the "pre-eminent classics rider of his era" wouldn't he need to, yanno, win classics?

Ye Gods, GvA (who is still God) won E3, Omloop, Gent Wevelgem AND Roubaix this year. You can string a series like that across about five of Sagan's last Spring Classics campaigns. Gilbert won Amstel Gold and Flanders, and this is after his Ardennes rampage just a couple years ago.

C'mon. If best one-day racer is the guy who wins lots of stages in shorter stage races, and doesn't win during the actual biggest one-day races on the calendar, then sure, Sagan fits the bill.

[kramnnim]

FlashUNC, your trolling is getting worse and worse. lol.

[FlashUNC]

FlashUNC, your trolling is getting worse and worse. lol.

I'm sorry if my criteria for best one-day racer is someone who wins, yanno, big one-day races.

Its a novel concept, sure. Its like calling Adam Hansen the best Grand Tour rider ever. I mean, sure, if you're using a set of criteria that doesn't start with "well, who wins the races?"

I've never seen more excuses for someone who doesn't win Monuments to be called this generation's Merckx. Its bizarre.

[MattTuck]

To be the "pre-eminent classics rider of his era" wouldn't he need to, yanno, win classics?



I think you missed the point of my post :)

[FlashUNC]

I don't doubt he's marketing hype. That much is pretty clear.

[justaute]

Sorry for the re-post, if this was already mentioned.

I didn't watch the entire U23 Championship, so I missed this incident of the Finnish rider Joni Kanerva. Wow...it's terrible. Apparently he's sustained several serious injuries including fractured vertebrae, fractured collar bone, broken ribs, etc.

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/rider-u23-worlds-crash/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNyzM58NUzQ

[kramnnim]

Has anyone who matters claimed Sagan to be the "best one day racer?"

[weisan]

“I don't want to be the second Eddy Merckx, I want to be the first Peter Sagan,”

[Drmojo]

FlashUNC, your trolling is getting worse and worse. lol.

nuff sed

[m4rk540]

It's not trolling, he's playing the role of Informed Contrarian. Let's compare LeBron and Kobe. LeBron has the eyepopping stats (a la Sagan) and Kobe has the rings (a la GVA). One season, LeBron has a higher scoring average, another season(s) Kobe. But who would argue (although a solid argument could be made) that Kobe is/was a better player.

So, FlashUNC is a Kobe fan.

[FlashUNC]

Has anyone who matters claimed Sagan to be the "best one day racer?"

You can't escape that assessment from the cycling press to casual fans to the industry foisting it upon us at every turn.

Which I would understand if it were based in the smallest shred of reality.

Have an age 25 season like Boonen? Totally get it. Smash the Ardennes like Gilbert? Totally on board. Crush the Flandrian calendar likw GvA? Fine, I'll eat crow.

But none of that has happened. The guy can't even ride all the Monuments and you've got people saying he's the most complete bike rider of his generation. Wut?

[FlashUNC]

It's not trolling, he's playing the role of Informed Contrarian. Let's compare LeBron and Kobe. LeBron has the eyepopping stats (a la Sagan) and Kobe has the rings (a la GVA). One season, LeBron has a higher scoring average, another season(s) Kobe. But who would argue (although a solid argument could be made) that Kobe is/was a better player.

So, FlashUNC is a Kobe fan.

Given what usually passes for Sagan discussion 'round these parts, I'll take it. Though its the first time I've been slandered as a Kobe fan.

I kid. Peak Kobe would have loved the current space and pace era we're in right now and would make Klay Thompson a distant second in that "best shooting guard in the league" discussion. But your comparison is, I think, a fair one. LeBron will get more holistic counting stats when all is said and done, but I'd wager a bit that Kobe will have more rings when all is said and done.

I do know it'd more fun to be on LeBron's team than Kobe's.

[EDS]

It's not trolling, he's playing the role of Informed Contrarian. Let's compare LeBron and Kobe. LeBron has the eyepopping stats (a la Sagan) and Kobe has the rings (a la GVA). One season, LeBron has a higher scoring average, another season(s) Kobe. But who would argue (although a solid argument could be made) that Kobe is/was a better player.

So, FlashUNC is a Kobe fan.

I think Kobe and LeBron is a bad comparison to Sagan and GVA.

No question GVA had the better classics season in 2017, but Sagan arguably has the better career palmares in the spring classics and is 4 years younger to boot.

Sagan will need to win a few more monuments to be considered a great classics rider, but even if he doesn't he has done enough already to be considered a great rider.

[MaraudingWalrus]

I think there was some serious abuse of the word literally by Flash..



....The other wins literally just one race on the calendar....


Regardless of which one you were talking about [Froome/Sagan], I think it's clear to find that they've each one more than one race on the calendar....I'm as big a fan of ridiculous #HotTakes as Stugotz, but I mean, you can't go around lying like that!

[54ny77]

wow what a race! on that sweeping left hander, sagan made his winning move to being in the right spot. talk about split second decision.

[echappist]

For those interested, Cosmo Catalano has his analyses of both the men's and women's races

http://cyclocosm.com/

[kramnnim]

You can't escape that assessment from the cycling press to casual fans to the industry foisting it upon us at every turn.


Best bike racer, yes. Best one day racer, no...the press isn't saying that. The casual fan couldn't name more than one or two of the spring classics and has no idea what the monuments are.

[kramnnim]

The guy can't even ride all the Monuments and you've got people saying he's the most complete bike rider of his generation. Wut?

Not even your "God", Greg, is competitive in all 5.

[jlwdm]

Comparing wins in different eras is more than difficult as many races were more regional and less important than they might be now.

Members talk about the 5th Monument - Lombardy. Makes you wonder what a monument is. This is a late season race that historically was too late to have really strong fields. A great Italian race - won by Italians 68 out of 110 races. Only one Italian the last 8 years after 8 Italian winners in a row. Not a major race for Sagan to worry about.

Just like the Giro was always a major Italian race. 69 Italian winners in 101 years. Four Italian winners the last 10 years after 11 straight Italian winners. Historically the race has not had really strong GC fields or GC teams.

The Vuelta really struggled when it was in the Spring. The switch to after the Tour was made in 1995. This change bumped the World Championships to October resulting in weaker fields for the WC. Riders did not want to keep training so hard late in the season. The WC is also tricky in that there are sprinters courses and various hilly courses. Sagan is fortunate to have had three races in a row that fit him. On the other hand a lot of races fit him.

All races were helped out to some extent when the UCI required the top teams to ride all of the main races. The teams might not always be strong but they are there. You see substantially weaker teams at the Giro and Vuelta for example, compared to the Tour.

Jeff

[echappist]

Not even your "God", Greg, is competitive in all 5.

to be fair, Lemond did place top 5 in all five monuments, but that was a different time. Kelly, Roche, Hinault, Fignon, Bauer and others have all done well in both grand tours and the classics (and not just the climbing ones)

The specialisation and improved training sussed out the last differences between classics riders and the grand tour contenders.

[MattTuck]

Lombardia has a weird spot on the calendar, but you look at how long the race has been run (since early 1900's), the ghisallo, and the winners -- Merckx, Coppi, Bartali, de vlaminck, Kelly... all in the prime of their careers.

All those things contribute to elevating it to the level of a "monument"... whatever that means. Yes, it is the weird monument, not as prestigious, but it has continuity and prestige, which is really the thing that makes something a monument.

[jlwdm]

Merckx is lucky he rode when he did. If he was riding today he would be attacked on this forum for not being a smart rider. Too often he just went to the front and set a pace that was too fast for the rest of the field - rode everyone off his wheel. Now people would say if he had only used his team more or stayed in the peloton more and saved his energy he would have won even more races.

Jeff

[Elefantino]

All Sagan discussions should link to the previous Sagan discussion, which should link to the previous Sagan discussion, which should link to the previous Sagan discussion, which should link to the previous Sagan discussion, and so on.

[nooneline]

oh fun, what was a good discussion about a bike race turned into a thread about FlashUNC beating that dead horse (http://tinyurl.com/hd85l3w) again over and over.

[jtbadge]

All Sagan discussions should link to the previous Sagan discussion, which should link to the previous Sagan discussion, which should link to the previous Sagan discussion, which should link to the previous Sagan discussion, and so on.

But then what after that?

[BdaGhisallo]

To be the "pre-eminent classics rider of his era" wouldn't he need to, yanno, win classics?

Ye Gods, GvA (who is still God) won E3, Omloop, Gent Wevelgem AND Roubaix this year. You can string a series like that across about five of Sagan's last Spring Classics campaigns. Gilbert won Amstel Gold and Flanders, and this is after his Ardennes rampage just a couple years ago.

C'mon. If best one-day racer is the guy who wins lots of stages in shorter stage races, and doesn't win during the actual biggest one-day races on the calendar, then sure, Sagan fits the bill.

I have to agree with this analysis.

As far as the big one day races - the classics and monuments:

P Gilbert:
World Road Race Championships (2012)
National Road Race Championships (2011, 2016)
National Time Trial Championships (2011)
Tour of Flanders (2017)
Liège–Bastogne–Liège (2011)
Giro di Lombardia (2009, 2010)
Amstel Gold Race (2010, 2011, 2014, 2017)
La Flèche Wallonne (2011)
Clásica de San Sebastián (2011)
GP de Québec (2011)
Strade Bianche (2011)
Paris–Tours (2008, 2009)

P Sagan:
World Road Race Championships
(2015, 2016, 2017)
European Road Race Championships (2016)
National Road Race Championships (2011 – 2015)
National Time Trial Championships (2015)
Tour of Flanders (2016)
Gent–Wevelgem (2013, 2016)
E3 Harelbeke (2014)
GP de Montréal (2013)
GP de Québec (2016, 2017)
Kuurne–Brussels–Kuurne (2017)
Brabantse Pijl (2013)

Sagan does have 3 WC titles in a row - a phenomenal achievement that no one else ever accomplished - but his record in big one day races otherwise is thin. There's only one Monument in there. Sagan is a great, great rider and is box office in the way that few riders in the past have ever been, and wins a lot throughout the calendar, races big and small, but he still has a lot to accomplish before he can be considered to be in the very top echelon of the best one day riders ever.

Look at Oscar Freire's big one day wins:

World Road Race Championship (1999, 2001, 2004)
Milan–San Remo (2004, 2007, 2010)
Gent–Wevelgem (2008)
Vattenfall Cyclassics (2006)
Paris–Tours (2010)
Brabantse Pijl (2005, 2006, 2007)

Freire won three WC titles like Sagan, but there's a fair bit more success in the big one day races and three Monument titles in there, compared to Sagan's one, but no one considers him to be one of the greatest ever one day riders, do they? And let's not forget that Freire accomplished what he did while battling constant back and leg issues throughout his whole career.


Roger de Vlaeminck is considered one of the very top classics riders of all time not because of his great success in smaller one day races and short tours, but because of his results in the big classics and Monuments, with eleven Monument wins:

Omloop Het Volk (1969, 1979)
Liège–Bastogne–Liège (1970)
Paris–Roubaix (1972, 1974, 1975, 1977)
Milan–San Remo (1973, 1978, 1979)
Giro di Lombardia (1974, 1976)
Tour of Flanders (1977)
National Road Race Championships (1969, 1981)


No one is saying that given a few more seasons that Sagan can't accomplish more in the big one day races and fully earn a berth as one of the greatest classics riders of all time, but he has work to do.

[chiasticon]

As far as the big one day races - the classics and monuments:

P Gilbert:
National Road Race Championships (2011, 2016)

P Sagan:
National Road Race Championships (2011 – 2015)IMHO, winning two Belgian national championships is harder than winning five Slovakian national championships. it's basically just him versus his brother for those.

[BdaGhisallo]

IMHO, winning two Belgian national championships is harder than winning five Slovakian national championships. it's basically just him versus his brother for those.

Pretty much.

[e-RICHIE]

GvA is 32.
Gilbert is 35.
Sagan is 27.
There's probably room for more accomplishments.

[saab2000]

IMHO, winning two Belgian national championships is harder than winning five Slovakian national championships. it's basically just him versus his brother for those.

Reminds me of the comments that the Belgian cyclocross championships might be harder than the world championships. The Belgian talent is deeper than the field at the worlds.

[kramnnim]

oh fun, what was a good discussion about a bike race turned into a thread about FlashUNC beating that dead horse (http://tinyurl.com/hd85l3w) again over and over.

The sad part is that we continue to engage him... :no:

[chiasticon]

Reminds me of the comments that the Belgian cyclocross championships might be harder than the world championships. The Belgian talent is deeper than the field at the worlds.well... except Mathieu Van der Poel isn't Belgian. :cool:

last year's Belgian championships was over in the first 20 seconds.

anyway, you do have a point. and these days, really the race is to just be on the podium at either. either Mathieu or Wout will win.

[JimmyTango]

to be fair, Lemond did place top 5 in all five monuments, but that was a different time...

I believe the "god" Greg that he was referring to is GVA, not Lemond.

[BdaGhisallo]

well... except Mathieu Van der Poel isn't Belgian. :cool:

last year's Belgian championships was over in the first 20 seconds.

anyway, you do have a point. and these days, really the race is to just be on the podium at either. either Mathieu or Wout will win.

That comment was originally made some years back when it was much more true. The cross field doesn't have the depth that it did ten or fifteen years ago, it seems to me.

[FlashUNC]

well... except Mathieu Van der Poel isn't Belgian. :cool:

last year's Belgian championships was over in the first 20 seconds.

anyway, you do have a point. and these days, really the race is to just be on the podium at either. either Mathieu or Wout will win.

Both of those guys are ridiculous. And they both had knee problems to boot in the last year or so. Scary part is they're only just now both getting healthy again.

[nooneline]

That comment was originally made some years back when it was much more true. The cross field doesn't have the depth that it did ten or fifteen years ago, it seems to me.

I think it does, except you have two people who are screwing up the curve.

[chiasticon]

I think it does, except you have two people who are screwing up the curve.yep.

[JimmyTango]

This morning I was listening to a podcast on the subject and it was mentioned in passing that one of the things that makes the WC RR unique is that it has no formula to the racing... by it's very nature of being run on a different course each year there is no "script" to follow... I think this is an interesting way to look at Sagan's success in the WC as compared to the Spring Classics:

The other classics are known quantities, and have long and storied histories that inform the tactics to use to win the day. I'd argue that this makes it easier to flex the muscles of both ultra-refined "specialists," and the teams with the best depth and cohesion. I know "racing is racing," and the results at the big one day races are in no way predetermined or predictable, but the classics are much less of a crap shoot thank the WC.

I think that the fact that the WC is so unpredictable plays into Sagan's hands and helps illuminate exactly what it is that makes him so rad. Thanks to the facts that the courses are always different, and the teams are less organized due to fuzzy alliances/ lack of cohesion, AND everyone is so desperate to go for the win (because there is no script saying "only X kind of rider can win on this course") the WC ends up being raced more on instinct... from the seat of your pants in a way that exposes individual riders to more vulnerabilities and really rewards the racer with the best legs and cagiest tactics.

I'd say that Sagan has become one of the strongest guys in the peloton in this sense. When give the chance to race a race where teams aren't actively trying to make him loose or protect a surgically precise specialist for a proven race plan he can out ride everyone.

GVA, Kwiat, PhilGil, and a few others are *arguably* more versatile and/ or more tactically savvy when they're on their best days, but the last few years Sagan has proven to be their equal PLUS he packs a decisively faster sprint... hence his 3 wins on 3 different courses. Probably the years of practice racing big races with no team support :P

[MattTuck]

^^^ Well said.

Racers always make the race, but the idiosyncrasies of the WCs are a major part of it. Wonder what the history of wins is, broken down by sprint finish, group break-aways, solo breaks...

[ultraman6970]

I do not know if this is true because this was something i heard or read somewhere...but remember that Freire showed up out of nowhere in spaniard cycling, many riders starts when they are kids but Freire is said that was a weird bird because he started old like when he was like 19 y/o and went straight to win nationals, and pretty much in like a year he was winning in professionals and included in the spaniard national team.

That situation sure caused him a lot of problems, nobody wants a mr nobody to show up out of nowhere, and probably that's why he did not get more famous. To me Freire was one of the great spaniard riders.

His last world champion that was the one that gilbert won, I do not know if anybody remember, Freire clearly wanted to win that race but Valverde obviously wanted to win aswell and valverde did not want to pull and Freire looked like an As$$ talking to valverde because he did not help him... meanwhile Gilbert accelerating and leaving them in the dust, that year I thought Valverde or Freire was going to win.

Next year was when purito and valverde lost the 1st and second place because of something similar, the Portuguese went ahead and left them behind.

In the case of sagan he doesnt have more monuments because the whole peloton was racing against him and he did not have a team to support him or he could have added at least 2 more monument races to his palmares.

[echappist]

I believe the "god" Greg that he was referring to is GVA, not Lemond.

In which case, even less defensible for the apotheosis of GvA (or any rider for that matter). It may be hard to believe, but I've been a fan of GvA a lot longer than Flash has, and I don't view GvA as that dominant of a classics rider, certainly not on the level of Sagan.

Between GvA's Paris Tours victory in 2011 and his Het Nieuwsblad victory in 2016, he had no classics victory of importance (a 1.1 GP Wallonie aside). He's had an annus mirabilis from Spring of 2016 to 2017, but there's no guarantee that this would continue.

One could well argue that Kwiatkowski is as good of a classics rider as GvA, as the latter has won Strade 2x, MSR 1x, Amstel 1x, E3 1x, San Sebastian 1x, and Worlds 1x. In contrast, GvA has won Het Nieuwsblad 2x, Roubaix 1x, Gent 1x, E3 1x, Paris Tours 1x, Montreal 1x, and Olympics 1x. Kwiatkowski is younger, to boot.

[MattTuck]

One could well argue that Kwiatkowski is as good of a classics rider as GvA, as the latter has won Strade 2x, MSR 1x, Amstel 1x, E3 1x, San Sebastian 1x, and Worlds 1x. In contrast, GvA has won Het Nieuwsblad 2x, Roubaix 1x, Gent 1x, E3 1x, Paris Tours 1x, Montreal 1x, and Olympics 1x. Kwiatkowski is younger, to boot.

I will argue this all day long :) Kwiatkowski is the best all around bike racer out there today. :)

[GregL]

My take from the drift in this thread (from Worlds RR to who's who in the classics): we are enjoying the "good old days" of one day racing. GvA, Kwiatkowski, Sagan, and Gilbert are all very talented and willing to animate races. Several others such as Kristoff and Degenkolb have had purple patches of form too. With the Boonen-Cancellara era over, it's good to have another group of exciting riders to watch. Can't wait for the 2018 spring classics!

Greg

[echappist]

Hope springs eternal. In our case, spring is the best time of the year

[BobO]

Can't wait for the 2018 spring classics!

Hear Here. :beer:

[FlashUNC]

I will argue this all day long :) Kwiatkowski is the best all around bike racer out there today. :)

Hear Hear. You want a total package? Kwiatkowski is a total package.

And has his own junior development team to boot.

[Climb01742]

This morning I was listening to a podcast on the subject and it was mentioned in passing that one of the things that makes the WC RR unique is that it has no formula to the racing... by it's very nature of being run on a different course each year there is no "script" to follow... I think this is an interesting way to look at Sagan's success in the WC as compared to the Spring Classics:

The other classics are known quantities, and have long and storied histories that inform the tactics to use to win the day. I'd argue that this makes it easier to flex the muscles of both ultra-refined "specialists," and the teams with the best depth and cohesion. I know "racing is racing," and the results at the big one day races are in no way predetermined or predictable, but the classics are much less of a crap shoot thank the WC.

I think that the fact that the WC is so unpredictable plays into Sagan's hands and helps illuminate exactly what it is that makes him so rad. Thanks to the facts that the courses are always different, and the teams are less organized due to fuzzy alliances/ lack of cohesion, AND everyone is so desperate to go for the win (because there is no script saying "only X kind of rider can win on this course") the WC ends up being raced more on instinct... from the seat of your pants in a way that exposes individual riders to more vulnerabilities and really rewards the racer with the best legs and cagiest tactics.

I'd say that Sagan has become one of the strongest guys in the peloton in this sense. When give the chance to race a race where teams aren't actively trying to make him loose or protect a surgically precise specialist for a proven race plan he can out ride everyone.

GVA, Kwiat, PhilGil, and a few others are *arguably* more versatile and/ or more tactically savvy when they're on their best days, but the last few years Sagan has proven to be their equal PLUS he packs a decisively faster sprint... hence his 3 wins on 3 different courses. Probably the years of practice racing big races with no team support :P

Well said, indeed. And it points to another reason why Froome and Sagan are such a fascinating odd couple. Froome achieves his success by talent, teamwork and down to the mm precision and planning. While Sagan achieves his success by talent, not much team support and an incredible seat of the pants instinct for where to be when. To me anyway, it's just cool that two such different routes can both lead to high level success.

[GregL]

Hear Hear. You want a total package? Kwiatkowski is a total package.

And has his own junior development team to boot.
And he is one heck of a team player. Look at the amount of work he did in this year's TdF. He turned himself inside out towing Froome. Talented, great work ethic, and smart.

Greg

[nooneline]

Between GvA's Paris Tours victory in 2011 and his Het Nieuwsblad victory in 2016, he had no classics victory of importance (a 1.1 GP Wallonie aside). He's had an annus mirabilis from Spring of 2016 to 2017, but there's no guarantee that this would continue.

Totally fair. Until this spring, GVA had a bunch of classics seasons that look a lot like Sagan's: reliable podiums, and sparse wins.

But I think that's pretty dang common, especially at the top. Without going back to several years of results to verify, it seems to me that since Cancellara and Boonen stepped back, the Classics field has been pretty wide open: lots of talent, unpredictable races, and no one person dominant. That means that some of the best riders out there are gonna be light on wins.

Hell, after winning his WC, Phil Gil didn't win much for years; Kwiatkowski, a great all-around talent, isn't much of a threat to win the same race twice; GVA was known as a nearly man; and the holes in Sagan's palmares are clear; Kristoff was on a tear in 2015 - and naught since.

2015 looked like it was setting up a Degenkolb/Kristoff rivalry for the ages, but, well, we all saw how that shook out: Kristoff's success interrupted by apparent team dissatisfaction, and Degenkolb's career interrupted by that car collision.

[kramnnim]

Hear Hear. You want a total package? Kwiatkowski is a total package.

And has his own junior development team to boot.

Finally, we can all agree on something.

[regularguy412]

Hear Hear. You want a total package? Kwiatkowski is a total package.

And has his own junior development team to boot.

Day in day out, he's probably one of _the_ most dangerous guys in the group.

Mike in AR:beer:

[KarlC]

What makes Peter Sagan great?

Entertainer, non-conformist, king of consistency: as Sagan joins pro cycling’s 100 club, we look at what makes him the generation’s superstar

Words: Andy McGrath
Photographs: ASO & Offside / L'Equipe


https://rouleur.cc/editorial/peter-sagan-great/

.

[carpediemracing]

I saw a Dane pulling on the front for the last few Kms and wondered for whom that dude is working. Sagan's teammate, perhaps? Can't remember if Valgren was/is a teammate

Valgren rides for Astana. Scarponi rode for Astana, Sagan dedicated his win to Scarponi, so maybe Valgren wanted to "help win Worlds" for Scarponi.

Also Valgren and Sagan were teammates on Tinkov.

I know that I've worked willingly and without hesitation for friends on other teams. If in a given race I don't have a particular goal in mind (maybe finish doesn't suit me) and I have no teammates in the race, I won't hesitate to work for someone I know. They probably don't know I'm working for them, to the point that even if they were riding near me they wouldn't know. It's all subtle stuff for the most part, mainly forcing other competitors to work harder without them realizing it.

I wonder if there's a professional version of this, even for riders on different teams. Sagan could demand post-crit promoters include Valgren in a crit or whatever, or direct his team to ease while Valgren is off the front in a less important race day (like a stage where Sagan is in green and doesn't want his team to ride all day). Etc.

[ultraman6970]

I thought that sky was going to be able to do something in this worlds, specially Froome, this thing was perfect for him and his team. but since they did not get anything it means or that they were off , not in a peak or that all the foreign riders they have which make sky team great. IMO probably is the second.

[kramnnim]

Or Valgren was working for Magnus Cort Neilsen?

Valgren rides for Astana. Scarponi rode for Astana, Sagan dedicated his win to Scarponi, so maybe Valgren wanted to "help win Worlds" for Scarponi.

Also Valgren and Sagan were teammates on Tinkov.

I know that I've worked willingly and without hesitation for friends on other teams. If in a given race I don't have a particular goal in mind (maybe finish doesn't suit me) and I have no teammates in the race, I won't hesitate to work for someone I know. They probably don't know I'm working for them, to the point that even if they were riding near me they wouldn't know. It's all subtle stuff for the most part, mainly forcing other competitors to work harder without them realizing it.

I wonder if there's a professional version of this, even for riders on different teams. Sagan could demand post-crit promoters include Valgren in a crit or whatever, or direct his team to ease while Valgren is off the front in a less important race day (like a stage where Sagan is in green and doesn't want his team to ride all day). Etc.