Campy Shifter question

[parco]

I recently converted to a Campy Athena group from Shimano. The right hand shifter controls the rear derailleur. The thumb lever shifts to higher gears and the brake lever switches to to lower gears. To me it would make more sense to have the thumb lever shift to lower gears because my hands would be on the hoods and have the brake lever shift to higher gears because my hands would be in the drop position. Is this possible? Could the function of these two levers be reversed?

[oldpotatoe]

I recently converted to a Campy Athena group from Shimano. The right hand shifter controls the rear derailleur. The thumb lever shifts to higher gears and the brake lever switches to to lower gears. To me it would make more sense to have the thumb lever shift to lower gears because my hands would be on the hoods and have the brake lever shift to higher gears because my hands would be in the drop position. Is this possible? Could the function of these two levers be reversed?

No sir, not possible...

[Black Dog]

Shifters use the longer lever to overcome the spring tension in the Rear Derailleur . This is the case for SRAM, Shimano, and Campy. There is too much force needed to move the RD up the cassette to allow for a small lever like the thumb lever.

[dddd]

There are ways to make a "low normal" or reverse-action Shimano derailer work with Ergolevers, but these are long-cage derailers in most cases.

Perhaps a mid-cage, low-normal rear derailer can be located on Ebay, they have been out of production for several years afaik.

Good Luck!

[ultraman6970]

Move to electronic and then you will have the buttons any place you want :D

[FlashUNC]

Campy's shift levers/buttons "push" the chain in direction you're looking to travel for each shifter. The finger lever moves the chain up to the big ring on the LH shifter, the thumb shifter dumps it down. On the RH, the same is true. The finger lever "pushes" the chain up to an easier gear, while the thumb does the same for harder ones.

If you can't shift the thumb button in the drops, it's time to readjust your lever position.

[jtakeda]

If the ergonomics of the lever don't fit your hand maybe try a different position.

If it's just the mental aspect of knowing which directions shifts up and down you'll get used to it quick

[Mark McM]

To me it would make more sense to have the thumb lever shift to lower gears because my hands would be on the hoods and have the brake lever shift to higher gears because my hands would be in the drop position.

This largely depends on your shifter position, handlebar shape, and hand position. For me, my shifters are positioned on my handlebars so that when I'm in the drops, my hands are just below the shifters (index fingers touching the bottoms of the hoods), so both the downshift lever and upshift button are within easy reach of my fingers and thumb, respectively.

As the others have said, the upshift lever is longer, because it needs more leverage to counteract the derailleur return spring, while the upshift button needs less fork because it works in the same direction of the return spring.

The suggestion of using low normal derailleur (plus a cable travel conversion device) theoretically could work to reverse the action of the shifter, but may require more compromises than you might like.

[oldpotatoe]

This largely depends on your shifter position, handlebar shape, and hand position. For me, my shifters are positioned on my handlebars so that when I'm in the drops, my hands are just below the shifters (index fingers touching the bottoms of the hoods), so both the downshift lever and upshift button are within easy reach of my fingers and thumb, respectively.

As the others have said, the upshift lever is longer, because it needs more leverage to counteract the derailleur return spring, while the upshift button needs less fork because it works in the same direction of the return spring.

The suggestion of using low normal derailleur (plus a cable travel conversion device) theoretically could work to reverse the action of the shifter, but may require more compromises than you might like.

Plus being a shimano 'backfire plus', rear der:cool::eek:

[Ronsonic]

I do recall I was on the mountain bike for almost year, got on my Campy
Ergo equipped bike and dumped the cassette to the smallest cog as I started up a steep overpass. :eek: Eventually my idiot thumb and index finger figured this out.

[rousseau]

Campy's shift levers/buttons "push" the chain in direction you're looking to travel for each shifter. The finger lever moves the chain up to the big ring on the LH shifter, the thumb shifter dumps it down. On the RH, the same is true. The finger lever "pushes" the chain up to an easier gear, while the thumb does the same for harder ones.
I've never used the other brands, but from what I gather Campy's setup is the most intuitive for this very reason. You've got up and down separated enough, both in terms of their physical distance from each other and the uniqueness of the mechanical motion required by the fingers and thumb, that you're virtually guaranteed never to go wrong when looking to shift in the heat of the moment.

All of which is a fancy way to say I'm a Campy fanboy!

[oldpotatoe]

I've never used the other brands, but from what I gather Campy's setup is the most intuitive for this very reason. You've got up and down separated enough, both in terms of their physical distance from each other and the uniqueness of the mechanical motion required by the fingers and thumb, that you're virtually guaranteed never to go wrong when looking to shift in the heat of the moment.

All of which is a fancy way to say I'm a Campy fanboy!

Mee too...either side, big lever, bigger cog or chainring, smaller lever(thumb button), smaller ring or cog...easy.

[Mark McM]

Mee too...either side, big lever, bigger cog or chainring, smaller lever(thumb button), smaller ring or cog...easy.

Campagnolo Ergopower controls literally mimic the corresponding movement of the derailleurs. For the right shifter, Rotating the big lever inward (to the left) rotates the rear derailleur parallelogram inward (to the left). Rotating the button downward/outward rotates the rear derailleur parallogram outward (to the right). The left shifter does the same thing for the front derailleur.

Having learned to shift with downtube shifters, and already understanding how the derailleur operates, the Campagnolo system was immediately intuitive to me.

For those coming from other experiences, maybe the Shimano or SRAM systems are more intuitive. (Although I still can't figure out how pushing both right and left levers simultaneously to toggle the front derailleur is intuitive to anyone. But then, SRAM hasn't really figured out front shifting, and appears to be trying to eliminate it.)

[rousseau]

For those coming from other experiences, maybe the Shimano or SRAM systems are more intuitive. (Although I still can't figure out how pushing both right and left levers simultaneously to toggle the front derailleur is intuitive to anyone. But then, SRAM hasn't really figured out front shifting, and appears to be trying to eliminate it.)
Eh? What kind of black magic is this?

[bikinchris]

Eh? What kind of black magic is this?

It's what people on the Internet say all the time. It makes no difference that the reality is SRAM shifts both the front and rear perfectly fine.

[oldpotatoe]

It'seems what people on the Internet sat all the time. It makes no difference that the reality is SRAM shifts both the front and rear perfectly fine.

I see a spirited discussion brewing. No doubt first gen Red Ti front ders were awful, steel ones a little better, way complicated 'yaw' better but shimano is the king of front der feel and action with Campagnolo a close second. Sram a distant 3rd....IMHO...For years I solved sram front der shifting woes by most often using a more flexible chain( shimano or KMC) and replacing the front der with......6600 or 6700 one...bike shop 'reality'....

[FlashUNC]

(Although I still can't figure out how pushing both right and left levers simultaneously to toggle the front derailleur is intuitive to anyone. But then, SRAM hasn't really figured out front shifting, and appears to be trying to eliminate it.)

Its incredibly intuitive.

Left goes easy, right goes hard, both changes the front. Takes all of five seconds to sort out. And I say that as a Campy fan.

[Mark McM]

Its incredibly intuitive.

Left goes easy, right goes hard, both changes the front. Takes all of five seconds to sort out. And I say that as a Campy fan.

So, pushing one way goes harder, pushing the other way goes easier; but pushing both ways simultaneously might go either harder or easier? Yeah, real intuitive.

The 'intuitive' nature of the SRAM is incomplete, because you have to understand more than just 'harder' (higher ratio) and 'easier' (lower ratio). You also have to understand that there are actually two different mechanisms (front and rear derailleur), that work independently and slightly differently. You already understood what the front derailleur does, so you just mapped it to your hand motions - you relied on more than just 'intuition'.

All the electronic derailleur systems have separate control actions for front and rear derailleurs, and rely on the user to understand the function and nature of each derailleur. The only exception is the 'sequential' mode in Shimano's Di2, which will shift either one or both derailleurs as needed. But even that mode is not foolproof, and many choose not to use it.

[FlashUNC]

So, pushing one way goes harder, pushing the other way goes easier; but pushing both ways simultaneously might go either harder or easier? Yeah, real intuitive.

The 'intuitive' nature of the SRAM is incomplete, because you have to understand more than just 'harder' (higher ratio) and 'easier' (lower ratio). You also have to understand that there are actually two different mechanisms (front and rear derailleur), that work independently and slightly differently. You already understood what the front derailleur does, so you just mapped it to your hand motions - you relied on more than just 'intuition'.

All the electronic derailleur systems have separate control actions for front and rear derailleurs, and rely on the user to understand the function and nature of each derailleur. The only exception is the 'sequential' mode in Shimano's Di2, which will shift either one or both derailleurs as needed. But even that mode is not foolproof, and many choose not to use it.

C'mon man. If you're buying electronic stuff, you're not exactly a babe in the woods.

Push the left one to have the chain go up the cassette, push the right to have it go down. Push both to change the front.

Really, its dead simple.

But by that standard you're laying out, every single shifting system ever made for a bike is unintuitive. How anyone can solve the mysteries of the ancients that is shifting a front and rear derailleur is beyond me. Surely cold fusion would be a simpler problem to solve.

[Mark McM]

C'mon man. If you're buying electronic stuff, you're not exactly a babe in the woods.

Push the left one to have the chain go up the cassette, push the right to have it go down. Push both to change the front.

Really, its dead simple.

Yes, quite simple. Easy to learn and use - if you know how multi-gear bicycle drive trains work (many newbies don't). But not more intuitive (possibly less so). If you understand multi-gear Shimano's and Campagnolo's system are just as easy to use - possibly more so in some situations (see below).

But by that standard you're laying out, every single shifting system ever made for a bike is unintuitive. How anyone can solve the mysteries of the ancients that is shifting a front and rear derailleur is beyond me. Surely cold fusion would be a simpler problem to solve.

Not at all. But the claim by SRAM that their system is more intuitive than others doesn't hold water. The hard part about shifting isn't the hand motions - it is figuring out when to shift, and whether to shift the front or rear derailleur (or, quite frequently, both). The SRAM system is no better in this regard, and in some ways worse. For example, how would you expand the SRAM shifting system to a triple crank? Shimano's and Campagnolo's user interface would easily accommodate them with no change in operation - not so SRAM. SRAM's of being "more intuitive" is pure frippery.

[drewellison]

Ah, now I think I understand why mountain bikers are going to 1x## drivetrains. They have a hard time figuring out the front derailleur thing. :hello:

[CiclistiCliff]

Oh man, Rapid Demise rear derailleurs with Ergo shifters? I can only imagine how many derailleurs would die when you dump the gears and the derailleurs launches itself into the spokes.

[FlashUNC]

Yes, quite simple. Easy to learn and use - if you know how multi-gear bicycle drive trains work (many newbies don't). But not more intuitive (possibly less so). If you understand multi-gear Shimano's and Campagnolo's system are just as easy to use - possibly more so in some situations (see below).



Not at all. But the claim by SRAM that their system is more intuitive than others doesn't hold water. The hard part about shifting isn't the hand motions - it is figuring out when to shift, and whether to shift the front or rear derailleur (or, quite frequently, both). The SRAM system is no better in this regard, and in some ways worse. For example, how would you expand the SRAM shifting system to a triple crank? Shimano's and Campagnolo's user interface would easily accommodate them with no change in operation - not so SRAM. SRAM's of being "more intuitive" is pure frippery.

Why would you need a triple when a compact double and a cassette in the back can get you a wider gear range? Because you really, really like gear overlap? C'mon.

Triples have been dumped by essentially everyone. Its a complete nonstarter of a complaint.

If people have a problem with "left ****er makes things easy, right makes things harder, both switches the front" then I hope they don't try really complicated things, like walking and chewing gum at the same time.

[Mark McM]

Why would you need a triple when a compact double and a cassette in the back can get you a wider gear range? Because you really, really like gear overlap? C'mon.

Unfortunately, these wide range cassettes have larger jump sizes between them than many people want, so in many cases a 1x or 2x gear system can not fully replace a 2x or 3x gear system. Maybe when we have 13 or 14 sprocket cassettes we can finally replace 2x systems with 1x systems, and 3x systems with 2x systems - but adding extra sprockets adds their own issues.


Triples have been dumped by essentially everyone. Its a complete nonstarter of a complaint.

Triples have been disappeared due to the extra complexity of maintenance and operation, not because their features have been replaced. I'll admit that I usually prefer a double over a triple - but for some cases (such as loaded touring), a triple is still the best option. Triples have not been obsoleted.


If people have a problem with "left ****er makes things easy, right makes things harder, both switches the front" then I hope they don't try really complicated things, like walking and chewing gum at the same time.

That's actually a good analogy, which applies well to the SRAM system. Many people (myself included) have been the shifting front and rear derailleurs simultaneously since back in the time when down tube shifters were common. This simultaneous shifting feature was still supported for (mechanical) integrated brake/shifters, and continued in the first two electronic shifting systems (Di2 & EPS). But the ability to shift both front and rear shifters at the same time has been lost with the SRAM system - SRAM users can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

(By the way, thanks for agreeing with my original assertion that SRAM is trying to eliminate the front derailleur.)

[oldpotatoe]

Its incredibly intuitive.

Left goes easy, right goes hard, both changes the front. Takes all of five seconds to sort out. And I say that as a Campy fan.

Intuitive-"using or based on what one feels to be true even without conscious reasoning; instinctive".

Yup, it's easy and quick to learn but put somebody on an etap bike who has never used lever mounted shifting....the rear is easy, just push paddles and watch but the front? Easy but not 'intuitive', imho. Same for double tap, sram published a pic and asked who could figure out how it shifted the ders, few figured it out. Simple, easy but not 'intuitive', again, imho...out

[FlashUNC]

Unfortunately, these wide range cassettes have larger jump sizes between them than many people want, so in many cases a 1x or 2x gear system can not fully replace a 2x or 3x gear system. Maybe when we have 13 or 14 sprocket cassettes we can finally replace 2x systems with 1x systems, and 3x systems with 2x systems - but adding extra sprockets adds their own issues.




Triples have been disappeared due to the extra complexity of maintenance and operation, not because their features have been replaced. I'll admit that I usually prefer a double over a triple - but for some cases (such as loaded touring), a triple is still the best option. Triples have not been obsoleted.




That's actually a good analogy, which applies well to the SRAM system. Many people (myself included) have been the shifting front and rear derailleurs simultaneously since back in the time when down tube shifters were common. This simultaneous shifting feature was still supported for (mechanical) integrated brake/shifters, and continued in the first two electronic shifting systems (Di2 & EPS). But the ability to shift both front and rear shifters at the same time has been lost with the SRAM system - SRAM users can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

(By the way, thanks for agreeing with my original assertion that SRAM is trying to eliminate the front derailleur.)

I never did say SRAM is trying to eliminate the front derailleur. Nor did I say SRAM was more or less intuitive than other shifting systems. Merely that its incredibly intuitive. Really not sure what thread you've been reading to reach those conclusions.

The market spoke pretty loudly across the board as triples died their death. The tradeoffs of a wide-range double were preferable to using triples, which were largely a heavy, finicky mess. They're consigned to the dustbin of history save for the people who have an irrational love for the things. Really, if you can't find a gear amongst a 50-34 with say 11-32 as a range that works for you, the problem ain't the equipment. Walking might be a better hobby at that point.

[rousseau]

Push the left one to have the chain go up the cassette, push the right to have it go down. Push both to change the front.
I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this. With SRAM you need to push both levers with both hands to shift up front? How does it differentiate between going up to the big ring and back down to the small one?

[FlashUNC]

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this. With SRAM you need to push both levers with both hands to shift up front? How does it differentiate between going up to the big ring and back down to the small one?

You hit both, it changes. Since its a double up front, its just sending it to the other chainring. All its really doing is telling the FD to change to the other position from where it currently is. I doubt its a super complex calculus for the computer.

[rousseau]

You hit both, it changes. Since its a double up front, its just sending it to the other chainring. All its really doing is telling the FD to change to the other position from where it currently is. I doubt its a super complex calculus for the computer.
Ah, so this is the electronic group? I see.

How does it work on the mechanical groups? Got any Youtube links showing how it's done?

I'd search Youtube myself, but I don't know the names of the SRAM groups or what to look for.

[simonov]

Ah, so this is the electronic group? I see.

How does it work on the mechanical groups? Got any Youtube links showing how it's done?

I'd search Youtube myself, but I don't know the names of the SRAM groups or what to look for.

SRAM mechanic groups use what they call DoubleTap. The right lever shifts the rear, the left lever shifts the front. Short clicks of the levers release cable tension and drop the chain to smaller rings/cogs. Long throws of the levers pull cable and shift to bigger rings/cogs (up to 3 at a time in the rear). The simultaneous shift of left and right for a front shift is only on the electronic eTap. Also, it's simple to shift front and rear with eTap. Hold whichever button down that corresponds to the desired shift direction and tap the other button in the process. As the chain works its way up or down the cassette the front will shift. It's simple and works well.

For those of you who complain about SRAM front shifting, how many of you have used a SRAM mechanical bike over the long haul. Yaw are finicky to setup the first time around, much like any group is finicky the first time you set it up. From then on out it's simple. It's also dead reliable, smooth and easy to use without needing trim stops. The idea that they're trying to do away with front shifting because they can't make a functioning FD is a tired joke that has no basis in reality. I've got many thousands of miles on every major group with the exception of Di2 and they all have their strengths and weaknesses, but what I've found is that the only thing that matters is one's personal preference in how to execute a shift. For me, SRAM mechanical is best followed closely by eTap. Then Shimano, but not on a race bike, and Campy is in last place by far. Not because it's not good, but because I find the thumb shifter to be awkward from the hoods for my ergonomic preferences.

Oh, and PS, eTap is completely intuitive. I ride my eTap bike maybe once a week this time of year and it takes zero seconds to immediately "get it". Going back to any of my SRAM, Campy or Shimano mechanical groups the next day takes longer to adjust to. I've also heard agreement from about 5 or 6 friends who are Campy die-hards with the exception of their one eTap bike. I've yet to hear someone complain about it, at least from how it shifts.

[rousseau]

SRAM mechanic groups use what they call DoubleTap. The right lever shifts the rear, the left lever shifts the front. Short clicks of the levers release cable tension and drop the chain to smaller rings/cogs. Long throws of the levers pull cable and shift to bigger rings/cogs (up to 3 at a time in the rear).
Thanks for explaining this. Wouldn't there be a slightly greater chance of mis-shifting with this setup in the heat of the moment? Pressing harder than you meant to, thereby downshifting instead of upshifting in the rear?

The simultaneous shift of left and right for a front shift is only on the electronic eTap. Also, it's simple to shift front and rear with eTap. Hold whichever button down that corresponds to the desired shift direction and tap the other button in the process. As the chain works its way up or down the cassette the front will shift. It's simple and works well.
One day I'll have to try this out in person, because I can't wrap my head around needing two hands for a front shift. It just seems totally wrong to me.

Apologies if this has been covered before, but I don't quite get this automated front shifting either. What if you want to stay in your big ring and cross-chain down to the second or third cog from the spokes, i.e. 53-21 or 53-23?

...and Campy is in last place by far. Not because it's not good, but because I find the thumb shifter to be awkward from the hoods for my ergonomic preferences.

I'm a Campy devotee, but I get this. If you're not used to a thumbshifter it can feel awkward and in the way. Plus Campy apparently feels a bit clunky when shifting in comparison to Shimano, which is smoother.

[simonov]

Thanks for explaining this. Wouldn't there be a slightly greater chance of mis-shifting with this setup in the heat of the moment? Pressing harder than you meant to, thereby downshifting instead of upshifting in the rear?

I've never had it happen to me. It's hard to tell without riding the setup, but the short "click" requires much less movement than the "long throw". I could possibly see accidentally upshifting when meaning to downshift if you don't apply enough pressure, but it's actually pretty natural. Need an easier gear (in the rear), throw that lever. Need a harder gear, fire off a quick click or two. The double tap lever isn't fixed to the brake lever, like with Shimano's levers, so you can pull it to the bar and with a quick flick of the wrist it's easy to get that harder gear while hammering or sprinting. Of all the groups, it's my favorite for racing.

One day I'll have to try this out in person, because I can't wrap my head around needing two hands for a front shift. It just seems totally wrong to me.

Apologies if this has been covered before, but I don't quite get this automated front shifting either. What if you want to stay in your big ring and cross-chain down to the second or third cog from the spokes, i.e. 53-21 or 53-23?

I get it. I couldn't get my head around it either, and probably bashed it a few times online after the announcement, but a shop nearby got one of the first groups to ship and I ran over to see it in person. I liked it and decided to give it a try. I have zero regrets and it really took me no more than a few minutes on my first ride to get used to it. Also, eTap doesn't do automated front shifting. Shimano does with Syncro mode, but eTap doesn't. So you would just control the rear and leave the front alone just like a mechanical group.

I'm a Campy devotee, but I get this. If you're not used to a thumbshifter it can feel awkward and in the way. Plus Campy apparently feels a bit clunky when shifting in comparison to Shimano, which is smoother.

Exactly. We all have our preferences. I love the clunky feel of Campy. SRAM has that distinct feedback feel as well. Shimano is too smooth for my liking, but that's just preference. My only issues with Campy are that I find the thumb shifter to be in an odd spot and I don't like FD trim now that I've been spoiled by SRAM's YAW FD. Again, these are preferences.