What do you do when you sell something and it's stolen off the buyer's porch?

[FastforaSlowGuy]

Sold some wheels to a guy, and they were apparently stolen off the his porch shortly after delivery. I wasn't asked to put any particular insurance on them so it is covered by the carrier's standard amount. FedEx confirms delivery, Buyer says he has the theft on camera, and he certainly seems like a well known and stand up guy on the forum through which it was sold (not PL). I have been there and feel for the guy, but I'm not sure what is expected other than putting the claim through. What's protocol?


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[bicycletricycle]

I would do nothing, help with claim but that's it.

[zmudshark]

Sold some wheels to a guy, and they were apparently stolen off the his porch shortly after delivery. I wasn't asked to put any particular insurance on them so it is covered by the carrier's standard amount. FedEx confirms delivery, Buyer says he has the theft on camera, and he certainly seems like a well known and stand up guy on the forum through which it was sold (not PL). I have been there and feel for the guy, but I'm not sure what is expected other than putting the claim through. What's protocol?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkTalk to the carrier and the local law enforcement. Theft from an interstate shipment is a Federal crime. You, as the shipper, has to start the claim, but the consignee has evidence that can be provided to the proper authorities. Fedex should pay the standard $100. Their driver either left it in a visible location from the street, or a porch pirate was shadowing their truck. They take this seriously.

Good Luck.

[jtakeda]

If it is a high value item, as a buyer I ask to pay for insurance. So I'd say help with the claim and you're in the clear morally.

It sucks, but what are you supposed to do?

When I got my Kirk shipped I got it sent to my PO box because there's always someone there

[radsmd]

Why no insurance to cover the amount of the transaction? Unless the buyer specifically declined it to save some $, then shouldn't adequate shipping insurance be included in the final transaction price?

That being said, at this point I would just help by opening the claim. The rest is on the buyer and the shipper.

[dustyrider]

Did the standard shipping insurance cover the cost of the wheels?

[ofcounsel]

I sold some stuff to a forum member. I had a tracking number but no insurance. So I could see that the package was delivered. Forum member never received it, and I presumed he was telling the truth. I presumed it was stolen from his door. I felt bad for him, as it was a couple hundred bucks worth of stuff. So I agreed to split the loss with him.

[echappist]

Why no insurance to cover the amount of the transaction? Unless the buyer specifically declined it to save some $, then shouldn't adequate shipping insurance be included in the final transaction price?

That being said, at this point I would just help by opening the claim. The rest is on the buyer and the shipper.

on anything more than $100, I include both signature confirmation as well as insurance. If the buyer expressly declines and assumes all liability, then I may consider dropping the coverage. In the end, it's usually $10 more on something; just not worth the hassle.

Signature confirmation on $50 or above for anything that doesn't fit inside a mail box.

[Tickdoc]

Send them a condolence card?

[sdrides]

Depending on the carrier and how the label was generated (DIY online, retail store, old school with the book and sticker, etc.) the price of insuring the item for its full value may or may not be covered; you'd have to check with the carrier to get the specifics for that particular label. In any case, I'm not sure that theft after delivery would be covered by the carrier. I've never dealt with that, but based on my experience with FedEx and UPS in the past, I'd guess they'd be interested in the crime but not overly willing to shell out. I would think this would be a homeowners/renters insurance claim, in which case you could maybe help out by providing proof of purchase, delivery, and value, though the buyer probably has all that as well.

Sympathies to the buyer, but I think your obligations here are pretty limited.

[charliedid]

I'd be useful or helpful but you covered your end of the deal.

Drag

[echappist]

out of curiosity, who has the liability here: the shipper or the receiver?

My sense is that the receiver would usually be liable, but when the shipper is a large corporation, it may choose to send the item again as a goodwill gesture (not to mention that someone must have figured out the odds of theft and concluded that the company would come out ahead if the rate is less than x per 10,000 items shipped). Does this sound about right?

[Wasatch]

I would do nothing, help with claim but that's it.

This^

[Cicli]

I had a set of wheels taken off my porch. The vendor took care of it. UPS made a big deal out of it for a couple of days and phone calls. Then went silent. I was made whole by the vendor and spoke to UPS twice along with the driver and feel I held up my end of the deal.
My house is for sale and I am seeing alot of traffic to my home with solicitors and buyers so a box sitting on my porch may have seemed inviting to someone.

[oldpotatoe]

on anything more than $100, I include both signature confirmation as well as insurance. If the buyer expressly declines and assumes all liability, then I may consider dropping the coverage. In the end, it's usually $10 more on something; just not worth the hassle.

Signature confirmation on $50 or above for anything that doesn't fit inside a mail box.

On my wheels, Bikeflights requires signature if over $500..I think I'm going to require on all shipments, for this reason. It 'may' be a little less convenient for the buyer but having it stolen is way more inconvenient.

[paredown]

On my wheels, Bikeflights requires signature if over $500..I think I'm going to require on all shipments, for this reason. It 'may' be a little less convenient for the buyer but having it stolen is way more inconvenient.

^^This^^ A good reminder. I don't like the uncertainty. I recently sold and shipped a frame (eBay)--and it was left on the porch, and I didn't realize that FEDEX Home would just drop it off. Never heard from the buyer, and found it un-nerving.

[redir]

Yeah definitely a signature on expensive stuff! I think the buyer has a responsibility of accepting the items as well. That means determining a save environment for accepting the package. I had some shiz stolen from me in a neighborhood I lived in so I told UPS and FEDex to NOT leave stuff on my porch. I would either be home to accept it or go pick it up.

So imho you followed through on your part and should not have any obligation to do more. If you want to be charitable that's another thing.

[charliedid]

A bit of a drift....

But this thread reminded me of something. Walking down the street the other day I noticed a bike box ( with delivery tag stuck to it) on a front porch of a house. It said "Bicycle" in huge letters on it. Just sitting there.

Ugh

[MattTuck]

We need the cycling equivalent of a Charles Bronson character to go met out vigilante justice to these savages.

[jamiec]

I had a set of wheels taken off my porch. The vendor took care of it. UPS made a big deal out of it for a couple of days and phone calls. Then went silent. I was made whole by the vendor and spoke to UPS twice along with the driver and feel I held up my end of the deal.
My house is for sale and I am seeing alot of traffic to my home with solicitors and buyers so a box sitting on my porch may have seemed inviting to someone.

Just Curious..in general on stuff like this.... why would the vendor or the shipping company be responsible? Its not their fault the item was stolen. They did their part. Mighty nice of them to replace them but seems like when something gets stolen off it would be your problem.

Does UPS, USPS or FEDEX actually pay when you have insurance after they delivered it?

[Cicli]

Just Curious..in general on stuff like this.... why would the vendor or the shipping company be responsible? Its not their fault the item was stolen. They did their part. Mighty nice of them to replace them but seems like when something gets stolen off it would be your problem.

Does UPS, USPS or FEDEX actually pay when you have insurance after they delivered it?

Beats me.
I asked for a signature for delivery. UPS didnt get one. They didnt get one on the replacement item either. I specifically asked for it. So, it was their issue.

[William]

We need the cycling equivalent of a Charles Bronson character to go met out vigilante justice to these savages.

It's time you made a stand
For a fee
I'm happy to be
Your bike ship man

Dirty deeds, done dirt cheap... :D







William

[moose8]

Sort of OT but our UPS delivery guy was just in the news because he saw some guy steal a package he had just left so he chased the guy until he dropped it. A news producer witnessed it so did a story. We've had stuff stolen a bunch, but we live in Boston near a methadone clinic so perhaps it's not that surprising.

[William]

I don't know if this is the case or how prevalent this might be, but I would be willing to bet that there are some drivers out there who case what gets loaded onto their truck, then call or text a bud where it's going to be dropped off.

Again not saying this happens a lot, but another good reason to require a signature for expensive items.






William

[Cicli]

I don't know if this is the case or how prevalent this might be, but I would be willing to bet that there are some drivers out there who case what gets loaded onto their truck, then call or text a bud where it's going to be dropped off.

Again not saying this happens a lot, but another good reason to require a signature for expensive items.






William

There were some guys at the local sort center that would overlay the label and have stuff sent to vacant homes. They would then pick it up later. They eventully got caught.

[chrisroph]

When I sell and ship higher value items like bikes, wheels or stereo components, I always insure the item for reasonable actual value and factor that cost into the deal. I haven't needed to make a claim but it seems like the only reasonable way to proceed in order to avoid just the kind of problem you're facing.

I'd suggest facilitating a claim and seeing what happens in your inevitable ongoing dealings with the buyer.

[echappist]

On my wheels, Bikeflights requires signature if over $500..I think I'm going to require on all shipments, for this reason. It 'may' be a little less convenient for the buyer but having it stolen is way more inconvenient.

I started being more OCD about this when I sold something to a friend who lives in a NYC apartment. I can't remember what the item was, but it was small enough to fit inside even one of those small mailboxes you find in apartment buildings. USPS said it was delivered, and my friend can't find it, and it would have brought up a lot of hassle. Fortunately, it apparently was inside the mailbox, just jammed somewhere that was difficult to reach, but lesson learned re: hassles.

----------------------------------

On another note, is it true that had the OP sold the item on ebay, the OP would have been on the hooks for the lost item?

[93legendti]

I don't know if this is the case or how prevalent this might be, but I would be willing to bet that there are some drivers out there who case what gets loaded onto their truck, then call or text a bud where it's going to be dropped off.

Again not saying this happens a lot, but another good reason to require a signature for expensive items.



William

I'll bet there are also people who follow UPS/FedEx trucks and wait and see if people are home and grab an item or 2 if they can...

I always insure when I ship.

[weiwentg]

IMHO: For a wheelset, I would have insured the full value and adjusted my pricing to reflect that.

[donevwil]

Shipping insurance is not a cure all. It's certainly a good idea, but it's there to cover damage and missing items, not theft or mis-delivery. In my personal experience it's seldom a solution for a stolen package that was identified as delivered. The OP has video which I'm sure would help, but I've been on the sending and receiving end of at least eight stolen or mis-delivered packages, for all of which a claim was filed, and only once was an insurance settlement approved. That was only because I tracked down the delivery man and got him to admit to his manager that he was aware of yet ignored my specific drop off instructions.

My claims experience has only been with USPS and UPS and the approved claim was with USPS for a $35 saddle. No experience with Fed-Ex, OnTrac, etc., but I doubt there's a lot of difference.

Either require a signature (which ultimately means one can pick it up at the post office or shipper depot), send Fed-Ex to Kinkos, UPS to one of their stores, or have the addressee accept the risk of it potentially being left and stolen. That's as much responsibility as I'll accept as the shipper.

[zmudshark]

I'll bet there are also people who follow UPS/FedEx trucks and wait and see if people are home and grab an item or 2 if they can...



Hence my 'porch pirate' comment. That is what they are called.

As I also said, theft from an interstate shipment is a felony (if over $100 value).

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

I've had UPS, FedEx and USPS drop stuff that was signature required, with no signature given. Granted, I'm on a dead end street with 7 houses, but still. Anything over $100, sig confirm and insured for full value, including shipping. I think it's something like $5 extra. Eases my mind and avoids grief.

[happycampyer]

Shipping insurance is not a cure all. It's certainly a good idea, but it's there to cover damage and missing items, not theft or mis-delivery. In my personal experience it's seldom a solution for a stolen package that was identified as delivered. The OP has video which I'm sure would help, but I've been on the sending and receiving end of at least eight stolen or mis-delivered packages, for all of which a claim was filed, and only once was an insurance settlement approved. That was only because I tracked down the delivery man and got him to admit to his manager that he was aware of yet ignored my specific drop off instructions.

My claims experience has only been with USPS and UPS and the approved claim was with USPS for a $35 saddle. No experience with Fed-Ex, OnTrac, etc., but I doubt there's a lot of difference.

Either require a signature (which ultimately means one can pick it up at the post office or shipper depot), send Fed-Ex to Kinkos, UPS to one of their stores, or have the addressee accept the risk of it potentially being left and stolen. That's as much responsibility as I'll accept as the shipper.This is what I was thinking. Insurance covers damage caused during shipping. Once a package is actually delivered intact (which the surveillance video confirms), and no signature is required, I would think the seller and shipper are off the hook. At that point, I would think that it becomes a homeowner's insurance claim (for which the deductible is probably higher than the cost of the wheels).

I'm surprised UPS, FedEx etc. don't photograph packages at the point of delivery to prove that a package was delivered.

[zmudshark]

This is what I was thinking. Insurance covers damage caused during shipping. Once a package is actually delivered intact (which the surveillance video confirms), and no signature is required, I would think the seller and shipper are off the hook. At that point, I would think that it becomes a homeowner's insurance claim (for which the deductible is probably higher than the cost of the wheels).

I'm surprised UPS, FedEx etc. don't photograph packages at the point of delivery to prove that a package was delivered.
As a long retired UPS driver I can say fairly confidently that the driver would be in big trouble if the package was not left 'out of sight, out of weather'.

[zmudshark]

I've had UPS, FedEx and USPS drop stuff that was signature required, with no signature given. Granted, I'm on a dead end street with 7 houses, but still. Anything over $100, sig confirm and insured for full value, including shipping. I think it's something like $5 extra. Eases my mind and avoids grief.

The UPS computer will not let a driver release a sig required pkg without a signature or a signed note from the consignee. They would have to forge a signature, which is immediate dismissal if called out.

I was also a Union steward. That charge is indefensible.

[donevwil]

As a long retired UPS driver I can say fairly confidently that the driver would be in big trouble if the package was not left 'out of sight, out of weather'.

Funny you write this, I can only imagine not all take their jobs as seriously as you did. On Thursday of last week UPS left a package in front of my front door, in plane sight of the side walk. It would have fit between the screen and front doors and the porch railing which would have offered coverage was three feet to the right.

To top it all off the package was for a neighbor two doors down.

[Cicli]

The UPS computer will not let a driver release a sig required pkg without a signature or a signed note from the consignee. They would have to forge a signature, which is immediate dismissal if called out.

I was also a Union steward. That charge is indefensible.

Well I called the local jamoke driver out on the signature requirement when he showed up to ask about the missing package. He had no coment. Just some slackjaw stare. Both times the package was sent signature required. Neither time he got one. I asked the loss prevention person who called me what they were going to do about it. No comment. Seems nobody cares.

[donevwil]

... Seems nobody cares.

One person does, he retired.

[zmudshark]

One person does, he retired.

It ain't the same anywhere anymore. Profits over people.

I could tell you stories...

[donevwil]

It ain't the same anywhere anymore. Profits over people.

I could tell you stories...

It's the American way.

[zmudshark]

It's the American way.

Modern America, not the America I was raised in.

Sigh...

[donevwil]

Modern America, not the America I was raised in.

Sigh...

Yes, appropriate correction.

[R3awak3n]

The UPS computer will not let a driver release a sig required pkg without a signature or a signed note from the consignee. They would have to forge a signature, which is immediate dismissal if called out.

I was also a Union steward. That charge is indefensible.

happened to me. Some random name on the signature and no one by that name lived in that building. Also, if they did they would have brought the package inside but package was isn the stairs.... I was going to call and complain but got my package (my english frame :eek:) so I let it go.

[GParkes]

I find it inconvenient, but always want to sign for my purchases these days, or have them shipped to my office (self-employed, so I can't get in trouble with the boss!).

Funny story though - about 15 years ago I purchased an Andy Gilmour frame for my wife and it was shipped to the same street number and name (25 ....), but there is a "Road" and "Drive", I was at Drive, frame delivered to Road . After the frame was deemed delivered by UPS and I didn't have it, I got worried, then put it all together. Drove to that address and met the most lovely elderly lady who had taken it in, but there was no telephone number on package for her to contact me. Brought the frame home to my wife and she loved it. Fast forward about 6-7 years, and I end up doing regular business with her son and tell him the story and he nearly falls out of his chair laughing. Lucky that time.

[tctyres]

On my wheels, Bikeflights requires signature if over $500..I think I'm going to require on all shipments, for this reason. It 'may' be a little less convenient for the buyer but having it stolen is way more inconvenient.

It's like two days, tops, of hassle with UPS or Fedex. Do it.

For Fedex, I redirect shipments to the local office, which is a block and a half from me and open until 9 pm. Redirecting a package free service for Fedex. The trucks already have to go to that office. If you want to save your customers the hassle, just tell them to redirect it. Normally, people can pick up pretty easily when they are out running errands.

For UPS, they get delivered to the door man across the street. He signs for them, and I go pick them up in the evening.

For USPS, I watch the tracking number 98% of the time it's in my mailbox or outside my front door. Sometimes it gets "lost." Then I call and complain. A few days later it gets "found" and delivered. It's like a USPS temporary black hole. It's super weird. I've never heard of this happening anywhere else but New York City.

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

It ain't the same anywhere anymore. Profits over people.

I could tell you stories...

For years, knew the UPS driver by name. Even had his cell. These days, different guy almost every delivery. As time goes by, seem less friendly, and steadily care less. I'm fully expecting the day coming when they barely stop and toss the package from the truck while moving. Drivers I know who work there say it's a hellish place these days. Every movement "recorded." GPS on truck, GPS on "clipboard," dash cameras pointed at drivers, door sensors, seat belt sensors (not putting your seatbelt on and closing driver's door after opening rear door and backing up to a loading dock is means for a write up), the list goes on. Does it all affect "service?"

[paredown]

...
For USPS, I watch the tracking number 98% of the time it's in my mailbox or outside my front door. Sometimes it gets "lost." Then I call and complain. A few days later it gets "found" and delivered. It's like a USPS temporary black hole. It's super weird. I've never heard of this happening anywhere else but New York City.

At one point, the USPS people 'explained' that (at that time--a couple of years ago) that their systems did not do true end-to-end tracking. It should get recorded at major points along the way--initiation, major sort facilities etc--but not always. I personally think it is more consistent now than a few years ago.

And then there was the crew in Brooklyn that I always complain about. They would not get everything delivered and would leave it on the trucks overnight, instead of bringing it back in an scanning as non-delivery (apparently that counted against their stats), so it would show 'out for delivery' and appear to vanish...

[zmudshark]

At one point, the USPS people 'explained' that (at that time--a couple of years ago) that their systems did not do true end-to-end tracking. It should get recorded at major points along the way--initiation, major sort facilities etc--but not always. I personally think it is more consistent now than a few years ago.

And then there was the crew in Brooklyn that I always complain about. They would not get everything delivered and would leave it on the trucks overnight, instead of bringing it back in an scanning as non-delivery (apparently that counted against their stats), so it would show 'out for delivery' and appear to vanish...Tracking is 'virtual'. The actual package only gets scanned a couple of times. Once it's loaded onto a semi trailer, the package is 'virtually tracked' across the country. Actual scans are only in the first 2-3 steps and last 2-3 steps, at l;east with UPS. USPS is probably even less.