Why Amazon will (and should) put Performance Bike out of business

[Climb01742]

Amazon Prime has perfected frictionless buying of almost anything. Including more and more cycling bits. Particularly saddles.

Like an idiot, I ordered a saddle from Performance Bike. They shipped me the wrong saddle. There is no online way to initiate the return. I have to print a return form and fill it out by hand. I must pay, upfront, for return shipping on a mistake they made. And I gotta wait until heaven knows when to have my CC credited for the return.

Compare that to an Amazon Prime return. Go online. Request a return. Hit print. Stick prepaid label on box. Drop off at UPS. The moment Amazon sees the package has been dropped off and scanned, they credit your card. Whole thing takes maybe an hour, on a slow day.

It's not just Performance, though they are strikingly antiquated. So many cycling online retailers are needlessly painful to use and behind the times. It's hard to believe they don't realize that Amazon is setting both the rules and expectations today. One click gets me a product in two days, with free, no questions returns, and a CC credited back in minutes.

Amazon will, and should, consign online retailers like Performance and others to the dustbin. Either step up (like Competitive Cycling did/has) or step aside.

[eddief]

before we buy? I think there's an Alexa joke in there somewhere.

[Climb01742]

before we buy? I think there's an Alexa joke in there somewhere.

I think LBSs will, and should, survive by finding a niche and focusing on good service. But online? Amazon sets the rules. Why deal with others who lag behind so badly?

[eddief]

and buy it from Amazon. I'm just funning with you. I get it.

[BobO]

Performance Bikes handles their online ordering in a somewhat unusual manner. The orders are taken by a single point system and disseminated to individual store locations where the orders are filled and shipped. There are an awful lot of moving parts and varying quality control with this sort of system. A high failure rate is inevitable.

[Burnette]

Amazon Prime has perfected frictionless buying of almost anything. Including more and more cycling bits. Particularly saddles.

Like an idiot, I ordered a saddle from Performance Bike. They shipped me the wrong saddle. There is no online way to initiate the return. I have to print a return form and fill it out by hand. I must pay, upfront, for return shipping on a mistake they made. And I gotta wait until heaven knows when to have my CC credited for the return.

Compare that to an Amazon Prime return. Go online. Request a return. Hit print. Stick prepaid label on box. Drop off at UPS. The moment Amazon sees the package has been dropped off and scanned, they credit your card. Whole thing takes maybe an hour, on a slow day.

It's not just Performance, though they are strikingly antiquated. So many cycling online retailers are needlessly painful to use and behind the times. It's hard to believe they don't realize that Amazon is setting both the rules and expectations today. One click gets me a product in two days, with free, no questions returns, and a CC credited back in minutes.

Amazon will, and should, consign online retailers like Performance and others to the dustbin. Either step up (like Competitive Cycling did/has) or step aside.

I know Performance Bike pissed you off by messing up your order, but they are in between the shop/internet interface where they do both things and Amazon will do just one, internet.
The Performance Bike near me has regular group rides, the do good repair work and their prices for some things are awesome. Amazon will crush the average bike shop's clothing and gear income because some of them are forced to carry the high priced Trek or Specialized gear and clothing. The LBS will be impacted hard by Amazon well before they impact Performance Bike.

At the local Performance Bike in Greensboro, NC, before a group ride, buy some gel packets, pick up those summer arm sleeves that are on end of season sale now, have them adjust the rear mech and you're off for a group ride. Amazon can't do that, nor can most bike shops tied to the big brands and their costly goods. I think Performance Bike will be just fine. They are well positioned to weather this storm. Fear for the traditional bike shop, some are being restricted in what they can sell and they have to compete with the internet. And compete with Performance Bike.

Some people scoff at Performance Bike's stuff but sometimes you only need a tube, some gloves or socks or something for hydration and energy. As far as them botching orders, it shouldn't' happen and it's a pain in the rear. Yes, Amazon will do that better. But there is a need for brick and mortar with internet pricing and Performance Bike has nestled into that niche nicely.

[rePhil]

CyclingTips podcast latest podcast was something like "How bike shops can survive in an Amazon world"

Interesting perspectives.

[OtayBW]

Some people scoff at Performance Bike's stuff but sometimes you only need a tube, some gloves or socks or something for hydration and energy.I go to Performance to buy Accelerade - that's about it. And now they quit carrying it! (at least in my local store). I walk around while there and try to find something interesting to buy, but I'm sorry to say that most of the stuff there interests me about as much as a subscription to Bicycling Magazine. Alright, I'm a snob....:fight:

[Climb01742]

I know Performance Bike pissed you off by messing up your order,

Truthfully, messing up the order wasn't what pissed me off. Stuff happens. I was just bummed out by the mistake until I went to return the wrong saddle. I think the true measure of any company isn't whether they make mistakes (we all do) but how easily and speedily they correct the mistake. The return and refund process at Performance is painful. It was state-of-the-art in 1970. That's the part that is unacceptable. If you sell online, there's simply a minimum standard you need to meet to stay in business. Performance feels like they're trying to shoestring an online business on the back of their brick-and-mortar. And failing, for me anyway.

[Pierre]

All I know is that prices on Amazon are not nearly as good as they used to be. My take is that this is partly a result of taking other players out of the action and then having the market clout to raise prices because we are left with fewer online options. Buyers beware!

[Burnette]

I go to Performance to buy Accelerade - that's about it. And now they quit carrying it! (at least in my local store). I walk around while there and try to find something interesting to buy, but I'm sorry to say that most of the stuff there interests me about as much as a subscription to Bicycling Magazine. Alright, I'm a snob....:fight:

Their top range bibs are good, really. When they go on sale here soon, try a pair and don't tell anyone! Some of their gloves are decent too and yep, I buy sun sleeves there too.They have blow out sales on gels and tubes and tires and such, go by there when the season end sale hit and stock up.

You know, there was a time when a product was a bargain and a good value wasn't a bad thing.

I too buy nice things but I'll rock a good bib, my peers be darned.

[dustyrider]

Truthfully, messing up the order wasn't what pissed me off. Stuff happens. I was just bummed out by the mistake until I went to return the wrong saddle. I think the true measure of any company isn't whether they make mistakes (we all do) but how easily and speedily they correct the mistake. The return and refund process at Performance is painful. It was state-of-the-art in 1970. That's the part that is unacceptable. If you sell online, there's simply a minimum standard you need to meet to stay in business. Performance feels like they're trying to shoestring an online business on the back of their brick-and-mortar. And failing, for me anyway.

I have had the same feeling for amazon for years now because of very similar circumstances. Amazon gets zero of my dollars.

[rnhood]

I know Performance Bike pissed you off by messing up your order, but they are in between the shop/internet interface where they do both things and Amazon will do just one, internet.
The Performance Bike near me has regular group rides, the do good repair work and their prices for some things are awesome. Amazon will crush the average bike shop's clothing and gear income because some of them are forced to carry the high priced Trek or Specialized gear and clothing. The LBS will be impacted hard by Amazon well before they impact Performance Bike.

At the local Performance Bike in Greensboro, NC, before a group ride, buy some gel packets, pick up those summer arm sleeves that are on end of season sale now, have them adjust the rear mech and you're off for a group ride. Amazon can't do that, nor can most bike shops tied to the big brands and their costly goods. I think Performance Bike will be just fine. They are well positioned to weather this storm. Fear for the traditional bike shop, some are being restricted in what they can sell and they have to compete with the internet. And compete with Performance Bike.

Some people scoff at Performance Bike's stuff but sometimes you only need a tube, some gloves or socks or something for hydration and energy. As far as them botching orders, it shouldn't' happen and it's a pain in the rear. Yes, Amazon will do that better. But there is a need for brick and mortar with internet pricing and Performance Bike has nestled into that niche nicely.

Nicely stated and I fully agree. Performance Bike has several stores in Raleigh and they serve a good purpose to the biking community. When I buy a saddle from Performance via on-line, I can return it for a full refund in 30 days. Try that with Amazon. So I have to drive down to the store to return it or, fill out a return label....BFD.

[54ny77]

i frequent a local performance often, they're my go-to source for nutritional stuff, tools or parts in a pinch, occasional sale "stuff" and last time i was there, they had doors to walk into a building, actual employees selling bikes, working on bikes, and others selling bike-related stuff.

fyi, while it might not be an option for you, if you order it online and need to return it, a local store will accept and process the item(s).

[Climb01742]

When I buy a saddle from Performance via on-line, I can return it for a full refund in 30 days. Try that with Amazon.

That's exactly what Amazon does. I've done it effortlessly at least five times.

[loxx0050]

Sure Amazon will cover shipping if there is a mistake. But if you want to return something for other reasons Amazon will not cover shipping (example: Amazon wish list wasn't reporting correctly for people buying X-Mas presents so 2 different people bought the same thing..couldn't return without paying a shipping fee since it technically wasn't a wrong order).

Also a lot of bike parts listed on Amazon are from 3rd party sellers (most of them being online shops of bike stores like Niagra Cycle or Trail This and heck Nashbar even has a Amazon storefront).

I do like shopping Amazon for small stuff like tools, bar tape and cables. Most other stuff I'm going directly to other bike stores online shops (Performance, Nashbar, etc).

Performance doesn't have a local store to me but I've bought a few things from them before and have been please with my purchases. I do agree it is wrong to make you pay out of pocket for return shipping for their mistake. They should've emailed a prepaid label or give you a shipping account to charge against to send it back.

[rnhood]

That's exactly what Amazon does. I've done it effortlessly at least five times.

I like Amazon too, don't get me wrong. They have really transformed on line shopping and will continue to do so. If merchandise can be returned for full refund then that is another feather in their cap. But I am not sure that is a consistent policy. You can also return a bike to Performance for a full refund. But I think we are getting off on a tangent. Frankly, Amazon has a better on-line system but when one has a local Performance Store, its a more difficult call whether to go to Amazon or the local store. Also, I am not sure Amazon matches the sale prices that Performance often advertises from time to time. Maybe they do, I just haven't checked on it.

[Climb01742]

i frequent a local performance often, they're my go-to source for nutritional stuff, tools or parts in a pinch, occasional sale "stuff" and last time i was there, they had doors to walk into a building, actual employees selling bikes, working on bikes, and others selling bike-related stuff.

fyi, while it might not be an option for you, if you order it online and need to return it, a local store will accept and process the item(s).

The nearest one to me is in Pennsylvania. Hey, I like real, physical bike shops. I was in one today at lunch time! And I'm glad people that have a Performance local to them like them. That's a good thing. But I'll try to restate my point again: If you're going to be in the online game, you can't do it halfway. My one transaction is irrelevant in the greater scheme. But it doesn't change reality. Amazon and other online retailers who go the extra mile to make a purchase frictionless will win.

[bikinchris]

All I know is that prices on Amazon are not nearly as good as they used to be. My take is that this is partly a result of taking other players out of the action and then having the market clout to raise prices because we are left with fewer online options. Buyers beware!

WHEN they have a monopoly on bike part sales, their prices are going to be whatever they want it to be. And there's nothing you can do about it. Except you can do something about it NOW, by buying local. They won't give you the wrong saddle, OP and if you don't like that saddle, they will likely exchange it.

[Climb01742]

Also, I am not sure Amazon matches the sale prices that Performance often advertises from time to time. Maybe they do, I just haven't checked on it.

I'm going through saddle hell, so I've been shopping for saddles a lot over the past year or so. I'd say 80-90% of the time Amazon equals or beats other online cycling retailers and kills all my local LBS. Add to that Prime's two day shipping and free returns, and I find it tough to beat. I know Amazon is far from a perfect company, but they have made online buying leaps and bounds better. And they're forcing other retailers to up their game. Notice how Competitive Cyclist has free shipping on orders over $50? The Amazon effect!:D

[Climb01742]

Except you can do something about it NOW, by buying local. They won't give you the wrong saddle, OP and if you don't like that saddle, they will likely exchange it.

I was in a LBS today looking for a saddle. Their selection was terrible. I really wanted to support the shop, but no shop can -- and most have no real interest in -- carrying a comprehensive inventory in things like saddles. It's really a question of playing to your strength. Brick and mortar shops have some strengths. Online has others. Render unto Caesar and all that.

[BobO]

WHEN they have a monopoly on bike part sales, their prices are going to be whatever they want it to be.

Except that there is internal competition within the Amazon marketplace, kinda like eBay. Then there's the reality that if/when Amazon starts price fixing at a higher level it opens the door again for other retailers.

[Gsinill]

I have had the same feeling for amazon for years now because of very similar circumstances. Amazon gets zero of my dollars.

Really? I have been a very active Amazon Prime member for many years and so far I've been treated extremely well. Not a single complaint that I can think of.

[raygunner]

I recently needed a seatpost clamp for a frame.

But first I called my LBS who sadly did not have the clamp in stock.

Then I checked out Performance which did have the clamp and informed me that it was in stock at my local shop. I do like that feature on their site. Much like REI has.

I was happily surprised the clamp was actually cheaper, even with tax, at Performance than Amazon.

Though I would rather support my LBS, sometimes it just doesn't happen.

[cmbicycles]

I ordered a helmet from performance a little while back. Went to the store to try on, bought it, then they sent a coupon that night so I ordered the same helmet for 25% less and returned the other. They sent two by accident... charged for one. Realized their mistake and emailed a shipping label. I just dropped it off at the local store, explained the situation and they took care of it. I don't buy a ton at performance, but they are a step above amazon in my book.

I will avoid amazon unless it absolutely can't be avoided. "Free" 2 day shipping and returns aren't really free. You pay what for a prime membership these days? Maybe it gets amortized over the course of a year if you buy enough, but I won't ever make it back.

[sg8357]

My LBS puts Performance out of business, 10 minute drive away.
Amazon prices aren't competitive, and Fedex Ground is annoying,
they only deliver missed delivery tags. (Locked Condo, USPS
and the clever UPS driver has an advantage.)

For the really obscure there is SJS Cycles, delivery's are air dropped
to your house from a Concorde.

[Skenry]

There is a reason that Performance was in receivership.

P-Mart will be gone in a few years, new owners Advance Sports (Fuji, Kestrel, Oval...) knows even less about running a bike shop than Performance did.

Reluctantly, I will admit that I worked at P-Mart for 3 years...

[MerckxMad]

Made the mistake of buying from an Amazon vendor instead of Amazon direct. I bought a Brooks saddle from Amazon. I did not pay attention to the fact that the order was being filled by a vendor, a well known shop in Philly. The saddle had a discoloration in the hide. I never took it out of its packaging. I used Amazon's return and that's where things went pear shaped. After dropping off the item at UPS, the shop called me and said they never received it. UPS delivered it to the shop, but no one in the shop could verify actual receipt. The shop proceeded to leave a dozen messages on my phone and attempted to withhold my refund. Amazon did very little to assist and I finally had to whip out the law degree and threaten CPB complaint to get the shop to back off. Now, I only buy from Amazon fulfillment.

[gasman]

There is a reason that Performance was in receivership.

P-Mart will be gone in a few years, new owners Advance Sports (Fuji, Kestrel, Oval...) knows even less about running a bike shop than Performance did.

Reluctantly, I will admit that I worked at P-Mart for 3 years...

I didn't know that. That explains Performance is closing their only store in Eugene.
I bet it's only been open 3 years

[pbarry]

I don't get it. Seems like a good site, from 10 years ago.. Does Prime give you more details and better images of items? Despite being a frequent online shopper, I've never made a purchase from Amazon. What am I missing?

[spoonrobot]

I'm really excited to pay $99 a year for Amazon Prime so I can get a part tomorrow when I could have driven over to Performance Bike for $1.00 in gas and gotten the part today. :confused:

[FlashUNC]

I don't get it. Seems like a good site, from 10 years ago.. Does Prime give you more details and better images of items? Despite being a frequent online shopper, I've never made a purchase from Amazon. What am I missing?

Speed. All amazon cares about is speed. Churn in the warehouse is measured in hours rather than days or months. Delivery is some markets is now measured to within the hour from order for some items.

And the website is part of that, I imagine. Why retrain customers on finding stuff when the current site is what they're used to?

[pbarry]

Thanks for the insight. :) Guess I've expected too much when I've gone there looking for something. And, I ponder and research before buying, so delivery time is not that crucial.

Speed. All amazon cares about is speed. Churn in the warehouse is measured in hours rather than days or months. Delivery is some markets is now measured to within the hour from order for some items.

And the website is part of that, I imagine. Why retrain customers on finding stuff when the current site is what they're used to?

[eddief]

are in radical flux. Darwin.

I do love it when something comes faster from Chainreaction.com across the ocean than it does from Nashbar (wherever it is).

[froze]

That would be a bit strange for Amazon to put either Performance or Nashbar out of business since some of the cycling stuff they sell the lowest price is through Performance or Nashbar. I've ordered a lot of stuff through both of those and never had any issues with either the stuff I got or if it was a wrong size I sent it back and they promptly sent me the right size, no fuss no mess.

By the way I'm not a Amazon Prime member and still get stuff within a week of ordering, I can wait, it's cheaper to wait than to pay $99, and if I need something real fast I'll either find it locally or have it next day aired to me which I've never had to do.

Not sure where some of you live but here in Fort Wayne the prices on cycling stuff is stupid high, like a tire for $75 when I can get the same tire on the internet for $65 and free shipping, and that price isn't even the sale price! I always wait for sales and when they hit I'll pick up that $75 tire for less than $35; and when the LBS has their big sale, they'll mark that $75 dollar tire down to $68. I buy most of my stuff off the internet because I can save at least 30% of the cost of buying it locally, and 99% of the crap I buy off of Amazon is sent for free via ground but I don't care because like I said earlier I'll get within a week.

Performance going into receivership? where did you get that load of nonsense? why not read something a bit more accurate, read this: http://www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2016/08/16/asi-buys-performance-bicycle Performance/Nashbar is not going into receivership, they are selling the company at a huge profit.

[eddief]

is now big brother in the produce department too:

https://qz.com/1063718/amazon-is-changing-whole-foods-at-the-speed-of-silicon-valley/

[54ny77]

that is more than a shot across the bow. they flew a squadron of a-10's and unloaded on the grocery industry.


is now big brother in the produce department too:

https://qz.com/1063718/amazon-is-changing-whole-foods-at-the-speed-of-silicon-valley/

[Slipstream]

I use Amazon for most of my general bike purchases and just about everything else. I have had some PITA returns though. The result if flying through the purchase and not reading the fine print I suspect.

[Mikej]

I would suggest Competitive Cyclist - or Backcountry (sometimes one has a better deal or free 2nd day shipping) they have really good prices, in stock is accurate and will price match. They have the returns down to be pretty painless -just as long as you have an account, you can click on return, print a 7$ label and when they scan it incoming it credits your account. I actually have a personal shopper that I contact to ask for above and beyond deals or to save something for me when it comes in etc. The problem with amazon is they are using a pool of 3rd party (?) LBS's (in many cases) to send you the part. Those transactions take very long and I usually have the part by the time I get the notice it has shipped. Sure you can prime some parts, but not all, and usually the prime prices are higher, sometimes significantly higher than the pool LBS'S.

[Aaron O]

At the risk of being a Vulgarian, I'm a fan of Performance bikes...have been for a lot of years. The local Performance shop has great, convenient hours...their service is actually pretty solid, so if I need something done on a Monday, they're the go to. They sell some pretty good entry level and casual bikes at solid pricing, especially on their sales. They have good deals, and better selection than average, on things like clothes and shoes.

I wish the online shop was organized a bit better, but no real complaints.

[Slipstream]

I would suggest Competitive Cyclist - or Backcountry (sometimes one has a better deal or free 2nd day shipping) they have really good prices, in stock is accurate and will price match. They have the returns down to be pretty painless -just as long as you have an account, you can click on return, print a 7$ label and when they scan it incoming it credits your account. I actually have a personal shopper that I contact to ask for above and beyond deals or to save something for me when it comes in etc. The problem with amazon is they are using a pool of 3rd party (?) LBS's (in many cases) to send you the part. Those transactions take very long and I usually have the part by the time I get the notice it has shipped. Sure you can prime some parts, but not all, and usually the prime prices are higher, sometimes significantly higher than the pool LBS'S.

Thanks. I purchased from Competitive Cyclist before and had a good experience. Good to know on the returns.

[jtbadge]

I would suggest Competitive Cyclist - or Backcountry (sometimes one has a better deal or free 2nd day shipping) they have really good prices, in stock is accurate and will price match. They have the returns down to be pretty painless -just as long as you have an account, you can click on return, print a 7$ label and when they scan it incoming it credits your account. I actually have a personal shopper that I contact to ask for above and beyond deals or to save something for me when it comes in etc. The problem with amazon is they are using a pool of 3rd party (?) LBS's (in many cases) to send you the part. Those transactions take very long and I usually have the part by the time I get the notice it has shipped. Sure you can prime some parts, but not all, and usually the prime prices are higher, sometimes significantly higher than the pool LBS'S.

I've noticed this problem with the 3rd party LBS setup. I ordered a seatpost with Prime shipping terms on Friday, was told it would arrive on Sunday.

Now it's Tuesday and I still don't have a tracking number. The seller tried to pass the buck to Amazon and refused any responsibility.

Should have just waited for one to come up on the forum.

[Ralph]

I like Amazon just fine...but do they need to own every category? I'll still shop at LBS for things they do better (things I need to try on...or need now). Hopefully SOME LBS survive.

[Climb01742]

Two things mentioned are true: Third party stuff bought on Amazon can definitely be problematic. Any bike bits I buy from Amazon I only buy from them, no more third parties. And yes, CC/Back Country is stellar. I'm a long time CC fan. Thing is, sometimes Amazon has bits CC doesn't. And yes, sometimes CC has a better price. The competition is making both sides better, I think.

[Bob Ross]

Has Amazon figured out how to not charge sales tax for out-of-state orders yet?

[54ny77]

Yes, they are going to domicile their new headquarters on the moon and drop things from an orbiting warehouse. No interstate borders will be crossed. Might suck if your package gets hit by flying space debris traveling at 16,000 mph, but that's ok. Prime members will be offered orbital damage insurance for an additional $39.95/yr.

Has Amazon figured out how to not charge sales tax for out-of-state orders yet?

[93legendti]

Amazon Prime has perfected frictionless buying of almost anything. Including more and more cycling bits. Particularly saddles.

Like an idiot, I ordered a saddle from Performance Bike. They shipped me the wrong saddle. There is no online way to initiate the return. I have to print a return form and fill it out by hand. I must pay, upfront, for return shipping on a mistake they made. And I gotta wait until heaven knows when to have my CC credited for the return.

Compare that to an Amazon Prime return. Go online. Request a return. Hit print. Stick prepaid label on box. Drop off at UPS. The moment Amazon sees the package has been dropped off and scanned, they credit your card. Whole thing takes maybe an hour, on a slow day.

It's not just Performance, though they are strikingly antiquated. So many cycling online retailers are needlessly painful to use and behind the times. It's hard to believe they don't realize that Amazon is setting both the rules and expectations today. One click gets me a product in two days, with free, no questions returns, and a CC credited back in minutes.

Amazon will, and should, consign online retailers like Performance and others to the dustbin. Either step up (like Competitive Cycling did/has) or step aside.

I love Amazon. We use the site for buying so many things.

1. If you call Performance, they will email you a return label. I seem to recall they may even schedule the UPS pickup. At least they used to. My local Performance is 5 minutes away so I haven't needed to do this in a while.

2. When going thru the Amazon return process there is an option to have UPS pickup the item the next business day. Even more convenient and easy.

[Skenry]

Performance going into receivership? where did you get that load of nonsense? why not read something a bit more accurate, read this: http://www.bicycleretailer.com/north-america/2016/08/16/asi-buys-performance-bicycle Performance/Nashbar is not going into receivership, they are selling the company at a huge profit.

ASI got that deal as Performance couldn't keep up their payments.


this is what is important from the BRAIN story:
ASI secured a $100 million line of credit with Wells Fargo to help finance the buyout. Ideal, Taiwan’s third largest bike manufacturer, has a minority stake in ASI and becomes a shareholder in the new company. Cunnane said the transaction was made with “very minimal debt.”

“We’ve stabilized the business [Performance] financially and they will have the opportunity to grow and make additional investments to further perfect their business,” Cunnane said of the buyout.
*****
They got the transaction done with minimal debt because they were already owed. A $275million business doesn't get bought with a $100million line of credit. ASI "stabilized the business" as they couldn't stabilize it themselves.

I have close to 30 years full and part time in the industry. Did my stint at Pmart up until last year. What you read in the marketing mags isn't always the truth. Support your local bike shop, unless you live in central NC, this ain't it.

[54ny77]

Seems like you really can make a small fortune in the bike biz.....

....by starting out with a much larger one.

:banana:

[charliedid]

I thought Amazon was buying TREK.

[makoti]

Two things mentioned are true: Third party stuff bought on Amazon can definitely be problematic. Any bike bits I buy from Amazon I only buy from them, no more third parties. And yes, CC/Back Country is stellar. I'm a long time CC fan. Thing is, sometimes Amazon has bits CC doesn't. And yes, sometimes CC has a better price. The competition is making both sides better, I think.

This is true for anything you buy from them. I try to buy only stuff sold by, or at least through, (as opposed to 3rd party only) Amazon because I've had stuff not show up, take ages to get to me, and other headaches with 3rd party vendors.
I also buy very little bike stuff from them. Cleat covers, bar tape, but not much else.

[415km]

Do some research into Amazon's practices, how they treat their workers, the shark tank environment, ect. Ask yourself if that's conditions you'd want to work under and if not why would you want someone else to work like that.
The race to the bottom of prices has many not so obvious costs to our world.
I personally don't buy anything from Amazon and while I don't judge those who do I would encourage you to look into the ethics behind these very large companies and make a choice for yourself.

[Mzilliox]

Is there anyone else who doesn't mind actually doing a bit of work for things anymore? I'm dead serious when i say life has become too easy. its become so easy for some folks they actually just forget to do it. like they think its supposed to be so easy the email will return itself or something...

man, you have to fill out something to return something? the injustice? maybe pick up a motor off amazon for your bike so you don't have to pedal?:fight:

sorry, hard for me to ever sympathize when someone talks about how hard things are nowadays. kinda like complaining about your flight being 30 minutes late when you are actually flying though the air to reach your destination in amazingly short amounts of time.

[Climb01742]

Is there anyone else who doesn't mind actually doing a bit of work for things anymore? I'm dead serious when i say life has become too easy. its become so easy for some folks they actually just forget to do it. like they think its supposed to be so easy the email will return itself or something...

man, you have to fill out something to return something? the injustice? maybe pick up a motor off amazon for your bike so you don't have to pedal?:fight:

sorry, hard for me to ever sympathize when someone talks about how hard things are nowadays. kinda like complaining about your flight being 30 minutes late when you are actually flying though the air to reach your destination in amazingly short amounts of time.

Your post reflects a complete misreading of what I said. My point was, and still is: one company is very good at selling online. And another company is very bad at it. Nowhere did I say anything about hard or easy. It's a question of competency and lack thereof.

Critique me all you want. But critique me accurately.

[jlwdm]

Has Amazon figured out how to not charge sales tax for out-of-state orders yet?

Just the opposite. they made a decision to charge for deliveries to all states that have a sales tax (not true for 3rd party sellers). They have a presence in most states now to have quick deliveries which required sales tax. They then made a decision to pay in all sales tax states even if they did not have a presence.

If you have a sales and use tax in your state, you are required to pay the tax even if not charged by the seller. I purchased a lot of furniture in NC about 15 years ago or so and because furniture is a higher cost, a lot of states obtained sales info in NC and went after the tax. I had to pay the tax, interest and penalties.

Jeff

[Climb01742]

Is there anyone else who doesn't mind actually doing a bit of work for things anymore? I'm dead serious when i say life has become too easy. its become so easy for some folks they actually just forget to do it. like they think its supposed to be so easy the email will return itself or something...

Before you write something like this, which makes enormous baseless assumptions, it might help to have some idea what you're talking about. You have no idea about me or my life, whether things are easy or hard, and about the principles I live by.

[Bruce K]

This one is getting a little out of hand.

Personal attacks are not welcome on our forum and can (and have) result in a 2 week time-out or worse.

We've been very civil over the last couple of weeks.

Please, let's keep it that way.

BK

[Big Dan]

Wish I had a Performance store closer to my house.
REI too....

:rolleyes:

[19wisconsin64]

I like Performance Bike. I've shopped with them since the 1980's, and have always had good experiences, even with returns.
Recently they sold me some great long sleeve summer white jerseys at a great price, and some good tires too.
They may not be as perfect with the online experience as other sellers, but they have always done right by me.
They also have house brands that are very good for the money, especially when on sale....which is often.
Performance bike more than almost any other company in the US has always had a great selection cycling products at great prices shipped to your door. To me that's great customer service. I'd be sad to see them go.

[Burnette]

Wish I had a Performance store closer to my house.
REI too....

:rolleyes:

And it's end is season time and REI and Performance Bike will have rolling sales for weeks. I call this time of year "Bicycle Holidays" because of those two stores.

[Burnette]

I like Performance Bike. I've shopped with them since the 1980's, and have always had good experiences, even with returns.
Recently they sold me some great long sleeve summer white jerseys at a great price, and some good tires too.
They may not be as perfect with the online experience as other sellers, but they have always done right by me.
They also have house brands that are very good for the money, especially when on sale....which is often.
Performance bike more than almost any other company in the US has always had a great selection cycling products at great prices shipped to your door. To me that's great customer service. I'd be sad to see them go.

Ditto on the house brands, some decent stuff. They have a good mix of name brand and house brand consumables with great prices.

[Mark McM]

WHEN they have a monopoly on bike part sales, their prices are going to be whatever they want it to be. And there's nothing you can do about it.

We already had that before Amazon. It's called MAP.

Only MAP is more insidious - Amazon is only a supply channel, and can only affect one path between manufacturer and consumer. With MAP, the price fixing happens directly from the single point source, the manufacturer.

[cetuximab]

There was a Performance Bike a few block away from my apartment in Denver. There was a Performance in Albuquerque that I could hit with a slightly longer ride home from work.

Some Amazon returns are free, but sometimes the price of return shipping is prohibitive.

The nice thing about an order from Performance Bike was the convenience to return a part if I ordered incorrectly.

[LexG213]

Do some research into Amazon's practices, how they treat their workers, the shark tank environment, ect. Ask yourself if that's conditions you'd want to work under and if not why would you want someone else to work like that.
The race to the bottom of prices has many not so obvious costs to our world.
I personally don't buy anything from Amazon and while I don't judge those who do I would encourage you to look into the ethics behind these very large companies and make a choice for yourself.

Love this. Seattleite here, I treat these workers in my clinic regularly and that 'frictionless' ease you all love is on the backs of under paid over worked labor. Amazon is slowly but surely eliminating local businesses everywhere. But what's different from the labor involved in our fancy cycling gear made in Bangladesh or fresh picked strawberries I guess...

[froze]

Ditto on the house brands, some decent stuff. They have a good mix of name brand and house brand consumables with great prices.

ditto again, I got a pair of house brand Nashbar Flume MTB shorts and they are the best shorts I've ever bought for less than 1/2 the price of the cheapest name brand (on sale of course), and it had very high reviews.

Their in house brand label is getting better as time goes on, I bought a pair of shoes from them about 8 years ago and they were just so so, but I used them for commuting so it wasn't a big deal; but later I paid about $75 more than for the Performance brand and got a pair of Mavic's and they too were just so so; but the when I got the Nashbar Flume shorts last year I was very happy and still am with those. I also read that their bibs got very high ratings, and they beat out much more expensive bibs for less cost than any brand bib.

If you read the reviews on their stuff you can weed out the so so stuff from the good stuff, like their socks get rave reviews. Some areas of cycling you can save a ton of money and never notice you bought something inexpensive instead of expensive, jerseys, socks, outer shorts, etc are huge areas you can save money.

[shovelhd]

Love this. Seattleite here, I treat these workers in my clinic regularly and that 'frictionless' ease you all love is on the backs of under paid over worked labor. Amazon is slowly but surely eliminating local businesses everywhere. But what's different from the labor involved in our fancy cycling gear made in Bangladesh or fresh picked strawberries I guess...

I never worked at Amazon but I interviewed with Fulfillment. Their goal is to eliminate as many of these overworked, underpaid employees as possible. They are spending big bucks to fully automate as much of the supply chain as possible. So they are actively working to eliminate jobs, all jobs.

[54ny77]

that is the future.

it's not exactly a pretty future for many people--retailers, workers, etc.

amazon has helped considerably to decimate retailing, and all the related jobs and industries and income multipliers that go with it. it's certainly not the sole contributor, but it's a big one. incremental death by billions of clicks.

the expectation of amazon as being an employer of gazillions of people is a false expectation. that's not their business model. better cheaper faster doesn't correlate with human capital as a key input.


I never worked at Amazon but I interviewed with Fulfillment. Their goal is to eliminate as many of these overworked, underpaid employees as possible. They are spending big bucks to fully automate as much of the supply chain as possible. So they are actively working to eliminate jobs, all jobs.

[shovelhd]

So when a company is actively working to eliminate jobs, and actively working to dominate every market they enter, then why aren't they an antitrust violation?

[jlwdm]

Amazon occupies 19% of all prime office space in Seattle. Their space is expected to increase by 50% in the next 5 years.

Jeff

[54ny77]

DARNED good question and one which, I'll guess at $1,500+ per billable hour by senior partners, has been kept at bay for as long as possible.

I'm not an antitrust law expert, nor do I play one on t.v., but I would venture a guess that if, after all these years where nothing of consequence has occurred that would force a structural change at the company, perhaps the law can't keep up (or doesn't know what to do) with Amazon.

I will take a wild-arsed guess that their foray into brick and mortar grocery via Whole Foods acquisition will introduce some more buzz on the subject.

So when a company is actively working to eliminate jobs, and actively working to dominate every market they enter, then why aren't they an antitrust violation?

[oldpotatoe]

So when a company is actively working to eliminate jobs, and actively working to dominate every market they enter, then why aren't they an antitrust violation?

and why none of this at Amazon places?? Where's the outrage about amazon, here? Some I guess but a sliver of what any post that says 'Walmart' on it.

[Vientomas]

and why none of this at Amazon places?? Where's the outrage about amazon, here? Some I guess but a sliver of what any post that says 'Walmart' on it.

Is the issue employee pay and benefits that is represented by the image you posted? How does Amazon employee pay and benefits compare to that of Walmart? My understanding is that Walmart pays employees less than does Amazon.

"Walmart last year boosted the hourly rate of its sales associates, but the average pay stands at $9.39 per hour, or about $19,531 per year -- below the official poverty line for a family of three." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-walmart-retail-hiring-wages/

Amazon around $12.50 hr.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Amazon-Hourly-Pay-E6036.htm

Where's the outrage? I dunno, you tell me.

[shovelhd]

The protest picture concerned wages, but we weren't discussing wages. We were discussing employee count.

[oldpotatoe]

Is the issue employee pay and benefits that is represented by the image you posted? How does Amazon employee pay and benefits compare to that of Walmart? My understanding is that Walmart pays employees less than does Amazon.

"Walmart last year boosted the hourly rate of its sales associates, but the average pay stands at $9.39 per hour, or about $19,531 per year -- below the official poverty line for a family of three." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/amazon-walmart-retail-hiring-wages/

Amazon around $12.50 hr.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay/Amazon-Hourly-Pay-E6036.htm

Where's the outrage? I dunno, you tell me.

[amazon has helped considerably to decimate retailing, and all the related jobs and industries and income multipliers that go with it. it's certainly not the sole contributor, but it's a big one. incremental death by billions of clicks[/QUOTE]

$26,000, hardly gold plated wages at amazon.

[GregL]

This thread has been interesting in that it shows the changing perception of jobs in our country. When I was growing up in the 60s and 70s, many retail and fast food jobs were not (IMO) intended to provide a living wage for a family. They typically supplemented a family's income or provided part-time work. A strong manufacturing economy provided the primary basis for family income. Now that manufacturing jobs have moved offshore, people are looking to retail and food service jobs to provide a primary income. How can this be sustainable? Rather than blaming the Walmarts and Amazons of the world for economic problems, why aren't we seriously questioning how US manufacturing jobs have declined (https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES3000000001)? And who has benefitted from this change?

Greg

[shovelhd]

I work in manufacturing, and we're booming. I believe that specialty manufacturing, not cookie cutter commodity manufacturing, is starting a healthy resurgence in the USA. We shall see.

I wasn't blaming Amazon for economic problems. I'm questioning how a company that is actively displacing workers with automation, and is going after practically every market that is currently supported by retailers, which employ a lot of people, how they are not an anti-trust violation.

AT&T was broken up for far less. They had one product.

[Climb01742]

I work in manufacturing, and we're booming. I believe that specialty manufacturing, not cookie cutter commodity manufacturing, is starting a healthy resurgence in the USA. We shall see.

I wasn't blaming Amazon for economic problems. I'm questioning how a company that is actively displacing workers with automation, and is going after practically every market that is currently supported by retailers, which employ a lot of people, how they are not an anti-trust violation.

AT&T was broken up for far less. They had one product.

The difference was, AT&T had been an actual, gov't approved monopoly. They had no real competition. Amazon has competition. Walmart, for example. And with Walmart partnering with Google, the future could be more competitive.

Amazon is far from perfect. But it's hard to find many large companies that aren't trying to do more with less. They'll couch it as improving margins, but cutting workers is how most achieve it. Think of the disruption that will occur when self-driving vehicles become real. Would you want to be a truck driver, bus driver, cab driver? Think of all the jobs in newspapers, magazines and advertising that Google and the internet have decimated. 'Creative' destruction of jobs is, sadly, part of capitalism. It's a far bigger topic, but the answer probably isn't changing companies, but changing the fabric of our economic society.

[Mark McM]

According to this Boston Globe article, e-commerce (like Amazon) is creating more jobs than traditional retailers are losing:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2017/08/12/amazon-booms-retail-jobs-shift/AAKEjq2kLsGgiMldh3ihRN/story.html

[oldpotatoe]

The protest picture concerned wages, but we weren't discussing wages. We were discussing employee count.

We weren't? Or were?

My point is a pile of negative responses when the title says 'walmart' and a teeny fraction if it says 'amazon'..

[fkelly]

Online retailing, Amazon and the like, is inevitable and of course well underway. For many things (not all) it's just more efficient. Google "luddites". Study the evolution of assembly lines in the early 20th century.

That said, the success of Amazon itself is not inevitable. Hundreds of car assembly lines started up in the early 20th century and only a handful survived.

Setting up and maintaining an Internet E-commerce is HARD. I did a minor one for a bike club a decade ago, it is a pain in the ass. I can't imagine how many hundreds or even thousands of programmers and other technical people Amazon has used to develop and support their system. Look at other sites, like say Verizon. Without getting into a litany of complaints they are completely incompetent when compared to Amazon. Or look at Adobe. These are technology and even web development companies but they can't even handle simple things like user registration properly.

Amazon just works. Want to see your orders for the last two years and reorder one item? It's there: maybe two clicks away. Looking at a product and want to read user reviews? One click. Want to see comparable products? A click. Place an order: one click. And so on.

Getting it to work this way is an almost unimaginably complex task. Across the world. 24x7.

[93legendti]

Generally, "big" isn't enough to constitute an anti-trust violation. Thankfully.

I don't know of a case where a seller of goods someone else manufactured was sued for anti-trust. Maybe it has happened or could happen...I don't think it's the same as Apple and Samsung conspiring to fix the prices of their phones. Or, T-Mobile buying up Sprint, ATT and Verizon and then doubling the rates for cell service.


The goal of anti-trust laws is to protect consumers from abuse:

"The main statutes are the Sherman Act 1890, the Clayton Act 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act 1914. These Acts, first, restrict the formation of cartels and prohibit other collusive practices regarded as being in restraint of trade. Second, they restrict the mergers and acquisitions of organizations that could substantially lessen competition. Third, they prohibit the creation of a monopoly and the abuse of monopoly power."

(It's been a long time since I worked on an anti-trust case, but I can't see the law changing 180 degrees...)


"The Sherman Act outlaws "every contract, combination, or conspiracy in restraint of trade," and any "monopolization, attempted monopolization, or conspiracy or combination to monopolize." Long ago, the Supreme Court decided that the Sherman Act does not prohibit every restraint of trade, only those that are unreasonable. For instance, in some sense, an agreement between two individuals to form a partnership restrains trade, but may not do so unreasonably, and thus may be lawful under the antitrust laws. On the other hand, certain acts are considered so harmful to competition that they are almost always illegal. These include plain arrangements among competing individuals or businesses to fix prices, divide markets, or rig bids. These acts are "per se" violations of the Sherman Act; in other words, no defense or justification is allowed."

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/antitrust-laws

[Gsinill]

Getting it to work this way is an almost unimaginably complex task. Across the world. 24x7.

+100

User experience is probably one of the hardest things to get right.
Link that with the actual physical processes that have to happen in the background like logistics and warehousing...
From an IT perspective, what Amazon has achieved is mind boggling, nobody comes even close IMHO.

The real scary part is that they are not just dominating retail but are also one if not the leading IT service providers:
"In the second quarter, AWS controlled 34 percent of the could infrastructure market, topping Microsoft, IBM and Google combined according to Synergy Research Group.".

Scary!

[marciero]

+100

...
The real scary part is that they are not just dominating retail but are also one if not the leading IT service providers:
"In the second quarter, AWS controlled 34 percent of the could infrastructure market, topping Microsoft, IBM and Google combined according to Synergy Research Group.".
...

My sense is that AWS is increasingly used by research institutions. And it's not in many cases because these places dont have their own resources. I've spoken with researchers at two leading institutions that have the money and resources to do their computing in-house, but use AWS as standard practice. I was very surprised to hear that, and maybe a little naive. Here you are curing cancer or whatever and you're trusting a glorified supermarket with your precious data and computations. They said it was simply more cost-effective to have AWS handle all that when projects got to be a certain size.

[CunegoFan]

Generally, "big" isn't enough to constitute an anti-trust violation. Thankfully.

I don't know of a case where a seller of goods someone else manufactured was sued for anti-trust. Maybe it has happened or could happen...I don't think it's the same as Apple and Samsung conspiring to fix the prices of their phones. Or, T-Mobile buying up Sprint, ATT and Verizon and then doubling the rates for cell service.


The goal of anti-trust laws is to protect consumers from abuse:

"The main statutes are the Sherman Act 1890, the Clayton Act 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act 1914. These Acts, first, restrict the formation of cartels and prohibit other collusive practices regarded as being in restraint of trade. Second, they restrict the mergers and acquisitions of organizations that could substantially lessen competition. Third, they prohibit the creation of a monopoly and the abuse of monopoly power."

(It's been a long time since I worked on an anti-trust case, but I can't see the law changing 180 degrees...)


"The Sherman Act outlaws "every contract, combination, or conspiracy in restraint of trade," and any "monopolization, attempted monopolization, or conspiracy or combination to monopolize." Long ago, the Supreme Court decided that the Sherman Act does not prohibit every restraint of trade, only those that are unreasonable. For instance, in some sense, an agreement between two individuals to form a partnership restrains trade, but may not do so unreasonably, and thus may be lawful under the antitrust laws. On the other hand, certain acts are considered so harmful to competition that they are almost always illegal. These include plain arrangements among competing individuals or businesses to fix prices, divide markets, or rig bids. These acts are "per se" violations of the Sherman Act; in other words, no defense or justification is allowed."

https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/antitrust-laws

If you have some time then you might want to read this:

http://www.yalelawjournal.org/note/amazons-antitrust-paradox

[54ny77]

Staggeringly good read.

Thanks for the link.

If you have some time then you might want to read this:

http://www.yalelawjournal.org/note/amazons-antitrust-paradox

[93legendti]

Yes. Thank you for confirming my analysis:

"In particular, current law underappreciates the risk of predatory pricing and how integration across distinct business lines may prove anticompetitive. These concerns are heightened in the context of online platforms for two reasons. First, the economics of platform markets incentivize the pursuit of growth over profits, a strategy that investors have rewarded. Under these conditions predatory pricing becomes highly rational—even as existing doctrine treats it as irrational. Second, because online platforms serve as critical intermediaries, integrating across business lines positions these platforms to control the essential infrastructure on which their rivals depend. This dual role also enables a platform to exploit information collected on companies using its services to undermine them as competitors.

In order to capture these anticompetitive concerns, we should replace the consumer welfare framework with an approach oriented around preserving a competitive process and market structure. Applying this idea involves, for example, assessing whether a company’s structure creates anticompetitive conflicts of interest; whether it can cross-leverage market advantages across distinct lines of business; and whether the economics of online platform markets incentivizes predatory conduct and capital markets permit it. More specifically, restoring traditional antitrust principles to create a presumption of predation and to ban vertical integration by dominant platforms could help maintain competition in these markets. If, instead, we accept dominant online platforms as natural monopolies or oligopolies, then applying elements of a public utility regime or essential facilities obligations would maintain the benefits of scale while limiting the ability of dominant platforms to abuse the power that comes with it.

My argument is part of a larger recent debate about whether the current paradigm in antitrust has failed. Though relegated to technocrats for decades, antitrust and competition policy have once again become topics of public concern.459 Last year, the Wall Street Journal reported that “[a] growing number of industries in the U.S. are dominated by a shrinking number of companies.”460 In March 2016, the Economist declared, “Profits are too high. America needs a dose of competition.”461 Policy elites, too, have weighed in, issuing policy papers and hosting conferences documenting the decline of competition across the U.S. economy and assessing the resulting harms, including a drop in start-up growth and widening economic inequality.462 Antitrust even made it into the 2016 presidential campaign: Democrats included competition policy in their party platform for the first time since 1988, and in October of the same year, presidential candidate Hillary Clinton released a detailed antitrust platform, highlighting not only a need for more vigorous enforcement but for an enforcement philosophy that takes into account market structure.463"

[Black Dog]

We are back on the road to feudalism. The blip of economic freedoms and prosperity of the post war era is coming to an end. Income gaps are growing and the new wealth created as economies expand is being taken by the upper income demographic. Compare tax rates across income groups from the most prosperous period (post war) to today and you can see how the flow of wealth has been dammed and diverted.

[dave thompson]

We are back on the road to feudalism. The blip of economic freedoms and prosperity of the post war era is coming to an end. Income gaps are growing and the new wealth created as economies expand is being taken by the upper income demographic. Compare tax rates across income groups from the most prosperous period (post war) to today and you can see how the flow of wealth has been dammed and diverted.

The rich are getting richer. The rest of us, not so much.

[Climb01742]

The rich are getting richer. The rest of us, not so much.

True. Because, in part, both political parties now eat at the trough of the donor class.

[mtechnica]

I work in manufacturing, and we're booming. I believe that specialty manufacturing, not cookie cutter commodity manufacturing, is starting a healthy resurgence in the USA. We shall see.



I also work in manufacturing and my company has recently started doing a LOT of business with Amazon. I'm not even sure how many machines we have shipped to them this year (50+ and who knows how many robots?) because I'm not on that project, but they are basically maxing out our capacity both with the multipack machines and palletizing cells. They are investing heavily and they are not messing around.

[mtechnica]

One other thing, many or most of these companies buying automated equipment aren't displacing workers. They typically keep them and either train them as operators or move them elsewhere in the facility. I have personally installed a machine right next to where 8 people were taping up boxes all day long. These people had a quota of 75 boxes an hour or something, and just stood there in shifts folding and taping boxes. It's a job, but not a job you would want.

I talked to the director of operations of the aforementioned facility, a multi billion dollar company by the way, and he said when it comes to these unskilled, repetitive labor jobs, they have a very difficult time even finding people that will do the job, let alone people that are reliable. Apparently it's a big problem. These jobs are basically last resort jobs for the unskilled, or people that don't make it in other jobs. Everyone talks about automation stealing jobs but there ARE NOT lines out the door with people applying for these jobs.

The real problem, in my opinion, is our society's idea of working and productivity. It's just not going to be compatible with the future and things are going to have to change because at some point there will be very few unskilled jobs. What do you do with millions of people unable or unwilling to do work beyond unskilled labor?

[Gummee]

Everyone talks about automation stealing jobs but there ARE NOT lines out the door with people applying for these jobs. Where's Mike Rowe when you need him.

The real problem, in my opinion, is our society's idea of working and productivity. It's just not going to be compatible with the future and things are going to have to change because at some point there will be very few unskilled jobs. What do you do with millions of people unable or unwilling to do work beyond unskilled labor?
Friend of mine is the HR person at her nursery. She's desperate for workers that'll work. Very unskilled positions...

Part of the problem stems from the 50s and the Red Scare. The USSR was graduating lots more scientists and engineers than we were. OMG! The Reds are getting ahead!

Fast forward to today... That 'the path to wealth and/or a 'better life' is education' mindset means that the lower skilled jobs and even some skilled blue-collar jobs are unfilled because they don't fit the narrative.

...but we're veering towards a political discussion, so I'll stop

M

[William]

Well worth a read...





William

[Davist]

My sense is that AWS is increasingly used by research institutions. And it's not in many cases because these places dont have their own resources. I've spoken with researchers at two leading institutions that have the money and resources to do their computing in-house, but use AWS as standard practice. I was very surprised to hear that, and maybe a little naive. Here you are curing cancer or whatever and you're trusting a glorified supermarket with your precious data and computations. They said it was simply more cost-effective to have AWS handle all that when projects got to be a certain size.

AWS main customer is Netflix. Netflix is about 40% of internet traffic in the US on any given weeknight. "Commodity" cloud service is also an AWS prime business, and yes, no way you can do it "in house" for any where near what they charge, but some items (research, real time decisions, proprietary stuff) need to be either in private cloud or on premises, of course. If, to your curing cancer problem, you need to rent 10,000 servers for 2 weeks or build a dedicated data center for the same problem, the choice is easy. They offer reasonably priced analytics as well. It can be secure as you need, they're not a glorified supermarket, AWS is the portion of the company that makes money. The issue with Amazon retail is that they are predatory, no or little focus on making money, so they can drive out competition...

[jumphigher]

One other thing, many or most of these companies buying automated equipment aren't displacing workers. They typically keep them and either train them as operators or move them elsewhere in the facility. I have personally installed a machine right next to where 8 people were taping up boxes all day long. These people had a quota of 75 boxes an hour or something, and just stood there in shifts folding and taping boxes. It's a job, but not a job you would want.

I talked to the director of operations of the aforementioned facility, a multi billion dollar company by the way, and he said when it comes to these unskilled, repetitive labor jobs, they have a very difficult time even finding people that will do the job, let alone people that are reliable. Apparently it's a big problem. These jobs are basically last resort jobs for the unskilled, or people that don't make it in other jobs. Everyone talks about automation stealing jobs but there ARE NOT lines out the door with people applying for these jobs.

The real problem, in my opinion, is our society's idea of working and productivity. It's just not going to be compatible with the future and things are going to have to change because at some point there will be very few unskilled jobs. What do you do with millions of people unable or unwilling to do work beyond unskilled labor?

^Totally agree with this.

[loimpact]

Amazon returns are not effortless. I, and my wife both, have had a few instances now where they don't want to pick up freight on the return. We eventually get it worked out but........

#1.) We lost time on several transactions requesting an account manager to waive the freight & e-mail a new label with which we could return

#2.) We already pay for Prime and that $100 seems to be forgotten by many folks. You are paying real money which some take great advantage of & others not. That is the what their bean counters do the math on.

#3.) Want to buy some Rock & Roll Absolute Dry from Amazon or from Jenson USA?

A wise person once said.....there is no free lunch!

And if we follow the Amazon mentality to its end then the next easiest thread to start reads like this ------> WHY VIRTUAL REALITY WILL (AND SHOULD) PUT AMAZONG OUT OF BUSINESS.

[jlwdm]

...

#2.) We already pay for Prime and that $100 seems to be forgotten by many folks. You are paying real money which some take great advantage of & others not. That is the what their bean counters do the math on.

...

I pay the $100 for Prime Video. The shipping perks are just a bonus.

Jeff

[Gsinill]

Amazon returns are not effortless. I, and my wife both, have had a few instances now where they don't want to pick up freight on the return.

What was the reason for the return?

[shovelhd]

My sense is that AWS is increasingly used by research institutions. And it's not in many cases because these places dont have their own resources. I've spoken with researchers at two leading institutions that have the money and resources to do their computing in-house, but use AWS as standard practice. I was very surprised to hear that, and maybe a little naive. Here you are curing cancer or whatever and you're trusting a glorified supermarket with your precious data and computations. They said it was simply more cost-effective to have AWS handle all that when projects got to be a certain size.

It's not even a certain size. The company that laid me off, a Fortune 100 company, has jettisoned its entire IT staff and outsourced everything to another fortune 100 company who is migrating everything to AWS. Even though there are plenty of us that worked for the company that have the right AWS experience to do it ourselves.

And so it goes.

[Gsinill]

Adding a 2nd HQ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/09/07/amazon-plans-second-headquarters-dubbed-hq-2/640861001/)and estimating 50,000 new jobs.
Guess Amazon already added a dedicated phone line for calls from all the lobbying mayors ;)

[54ny77]

if you live near a fulfillment center, it's mind-boggling what you can get literally same day.

was just announced they're opening one in staten island, creating 2500 jobs.

[fiamme red]

was just announced they're opening one in staten island, creating 2500 jobs.How many of those jobs are for humans, how many for robots?

Eventually, as robots become more sophisticated, there will probably just be a few humans working in a huge fulfillment center. Welcome to the future!

http://edwardalderton.org/rur_poster2.jpg

[andeww]

Amazon just took over a large warehouse next to my office, i am guessing it is considered a fulfillment center. It is actually terrible to deal with.
We have dozens of cars lined up each day blocking our driveway with zero organization. These are the "prime" drivers, that are basically regular people using their own cars to deliver packages. They park in front of our office and smoke cigarettes and re-organize the packages on the asphalt leaving packing tape, boxes and trash all over. Since they are all contractors there seems to be no regulation or consequences for being an asshole.

[Gsinill]

Eventually, as robots become more sophisticated, there will probably just be a few humans working in a huge fulfillment center

Already here, no need for robots, just google "lights-out warehouse".

[54ny77]

i've had prime deliveries from everyone from fed ex to some dude (or woman) rolling up in a random car.

your explanation makes sense to me now.

Amazon just took over a large warehouse next to my office, i am guessing it is considered a fulfillment center. It is actually terrible to deal with.
We have dozens of cars lined up each day blocking our driveway with zero organization. These are the "prime" drivers, that are basically regular people using their own cars to deliver packages. They park in front of our office and smoke cigarettes and re-organize the packages on the asphalt leaving packing tape, boxes and trash all over. Since they are all contractors there seems to be no regulation or consequences for being an asshole.

[deechee]

AWS main customer is Netflix. Netflix is about 40% of internet traffic in the US on any given weeknight. "Commodity" cloud service is also an AWS prime business, and yes, no way you can do it "in house" for any where near what they charge, but some items (research, real time decisions, proprietary stuff) need to be either in private cloud or on premises, of course. If, to your curing cancer problem, you need to rent 10,000 servers for 2 weeks or build a dedicated data center for the same problem, the choice is easy. They offer reasonably priced analytics as well. It can be secure as you need, they're not a glorified supermarket, AWS is the portion of the company that makes money. The issue with Amazon retail is that they are predatory, no or little focus on making money, so they can drive out competition...

Uh, isn't Netflix's video service in house? OpenConnect? I believe a lot of analytics and user info is stored in AWS, but not the actual streaming. That said I have to say, it's not just the retail side which is predatory. Read the reviews on glassdoor. Talk to employees; unless you're single, people in my age range are working crazy long hours to keep their managers happy.

This recent article in the NYT (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/03/upshot/to-understand-rising-inequality-consider-the-janitors-at-two-top-companies-then-and-now.html)about janitors is a depressing but very telling story of how companies like amazon now run business. While my experience with PerformanceBike is limited, amazon taking over the entire retail map really is not a good thing.

If you're still hesitant, read about their recent brick and mortar book stores (https://www.ft.com/content/e89f5c3e-bd55-11e6-8b45-b8b81dd5d080). Very limited selection (http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/amazons-brick-and-mortar-bookstores-are-not-built-for-people-who-actually-read)and doing away with employees. Payment is done by face recognition. No need to walk to a cashier or even a self-checkout.

And while we're talking about jobs going away, doctors (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/04/03/ai-versus-md) are going to be dated too.

[fiamme red]

On the other hand, maybe robots will become lazy once they are in charge, and then humans won't be obsolete after all. :)

http://assets.amuniversal.com/a4c0fa70696e0135e529005056a9545d

[torquer]

What jobs going away?
Amazon is dangling an offer of 50,000 jobs to any locality that meets their terms for a second headquarters:
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/09/07/business/07reuters-amazon-com-headquarters-factbox.html
Of course those terms include "The availability of incentives including site preparation, tax credits and exemptions, relocation and workforce grants, and fee reductions."
Who do they think they are, the NFL?

[Black Dog]

What jobs going away?
Amazon is dangling an offer of 50,000 jobs to any locality that meets their terms for a second headquarters:
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/09/07/business/07reuters-amazon-com-headquarters-factbox.html
Of course those terms include "The availability of incentives including site preparation, tax credits and exemptions, relocation and workforce grants, and fee reductions."
Who do they think they are, the NFL?

Yup. Demanding corporate welfare from what ever city they choose.

[Rada]

Yup. Demanding corporate welfare from what ever city they choose.

What companies don't?

[Gsinill]

What companies don't?

$3B incentives for FoxConn from the State of Wisconsin for creating 13,000 jobs.

[Kirk007]

Yup. Demanding corporate welfare from what ever city they choose.

yep this is the great American way - from Aerospace, Military, Agriculture, Timber, Oil and Gas, Chemical companies - on and on and on - those stalwart businesses that have pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps (i.e. billions in campaign contributions to our "public servants") are subsidized by the our tax dollars out the ying yang, yet its those lazy takers and renters who have receive benefits from our social welfare programs that are ruining America.

I guess Bezos should be thrown in with the takers and renters because he has, gasp, progressive tendencies and doesn't toe the Make America Great Again line.

[fiamme red]

Here's one comment on the NYT article about Amazon's search for new headquarters:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/07/technology/amazon-headquarters-north-america.html#permid=24011905

This is what disgusts me about major corporations. Their motto is:

Ask not what what we can do for anyone (least of all the country that protects and creates our prosperity), but how much more money raised from the taxes of people struggling to survive on the poverty wages we pay can we blackmail out of the hands of moronic elected officials who are desperate to prance a "win" in front of the electorate.

Then we will pay the lowest possible wages to all but a handful of elites while shirking any responsibility to our worker, the state, the nation, and the poor smucks whose tax dollars built our beautiful facilities. Then when the tax bribes are due to expire, we'll start the whole process all over again, screwing some other groups of optimistic, gullible idiots looking for a "win."

But the only people who will win, in the end, be a handful of overpaid executives and a few shareholders most of whom are already wealthy, but are never wealthy enough to feel screwing a few more workers and tax payers is unnecessary!It is very similar to the tactics of a professional sports team.

[froze]

What jobs going away?
Amazon is dangling an offer of 50,000 jobs to any locality that meets their terms for a second headquarters:
https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/09/07/business/07reuters-amazon-com-headquarters-factbox.html
Of course those terms include "The availability of incentives including site preparation, tax credits and exemptions, relocation and workforce grants, and fee reductions."
Who do they think they are, the NFL?

Corporate welfare? Really? well what about the tax revenue coming from 50,000 people into the city coffers? 50,000 people buying stuff and paying sales tax, 50,000 people buying homes and paying homeowners taxes, 50,000 employed some of which may be on unemployment, 50,000 people means more new businesses popping up to serve those people which means they pay more taxes into the city coffers not to mention new employees for those too; in other words...money, money, money flowing into the winning city which is why there is a bidding war going on because those cities know they stand to make a mint.

[avalonracing]

yep this is the great American way - from Aerospace, Military, Agriculture, Timber, Oil and Gas, Chemical companies - on and on and on - those stalwart businesses that have pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps (i.e. billions in campaign contributions to our "public servants") are subsidized by the our tax dollars out the ying yang, yet its those lazy takers and renters who have receive benefits from our social welfare programs that are ruining America.

I guess Bezos should be thrown in with the takers and renters because he has, gasp, progressive tendencies and doesn't toe the Make America Great Again line.

:hello:

[Skenry]

Corporate welfare? Really? well what about the tax revenue coming from 50,000 people into the city coffers? 50,000 people buying stuff and paying sales tax, 50,000 people buying homes and paying homeowners taxes, 50,000 employed some of which may be on unemployment, 50,000 people means more new businesses popping up to serve those people which means they pay more taxes into the city coffers not to mention new employees for those too; in other words...money, money, money flowing into the winning city which is why there is a bidding war going on because those cities know they stand to make a mint.

But... But... But... Big business is bad

[Bwana]

I cross shopped a list of some parts I need to finish a build today between four or five different websites. Amazon was the only one that had EVERY part, they were also the cheapest, everything on the list was available with Prime shipping, and two items had same day delivery. :eek::banana:

[djg21]

DARNED good question and one which, I'll guess at $1,500+ per billable hour by senior partners, has been kept at bay for as long as possible.

I'm not an antitrust law expert, nor do I play one on t.v., but I would venture a guess that if, after all these years where nothing of consequence has occurred that would force a structural change at the company, perhaps the law can't keep up (or doesn't know what to do) with Amazon.

I will take a wild-arsed guess that their foray into brick and mortar grocery via Whole Foods acquisition will introduce some more buzz on the subject.

The simple answer is that becoming successful in itself is not a violation of the antitrust laws, and as dominant as Amazon is, it has competitors in the markets it participates in. I’m sure that one could elect never to shop at Amazon and still find everything they wish to purchase either on-line or at brick-and-mortar businesses.

[54ny77]

I agree with all u said. They're doing everything bigger faster cheaper and thus consumers benefit. They don't have a monopoly on selling a bottle of laundry soap.

What I do think is anticompetitive, however, is selling products at a loss. Investors have sustained that absurdity for so many years, it's mind boggling.

The simple answer is that becoming successful in itself is not a violation of the antitrust laws, and as dominant as Amazon is, it has competitors in the markets it participates in. I’m sure that one could elect never to shop at Amazon and still find everything they wish to purchase either on-line or at brick-and-mortar businesses.

[djg21]

I agree with all u said. They're doing everything bigger faster cheaper and thus consumers benefit. They don't have a monopoly on selling a bottle of laundry soap.

What I do think is anticompetitive, however, is selling products at a loss. Investors have sustained that absurdity for so many years, it's mind boggling.

It may be. But more often than not, it is a perfectly legitimate (and often very risky) business strategy. It all depends, and the analysis is always detailed and rarely results in a definitive answer. That is the nature of AT law and economics.

Here’s a very short and simple explanation of predatory pricing from the FTC:

Predatory or Below-Cost Pricing

Can prices ever be "too low?" The short answer is yes, but not very often. Generally, low prices benefit consumers. Consumers are harmed only if below-cost pricing allows a dominant competitor to knock its rivals out of the market and then raise prices to above-market levels for a substantial time. A firm's independent decision to reduce prices to a level below its own costs does not necessarily injure competition, and, in fact, may simply reflect particularly vigorous competition. Instances of a large firm using low prices to drive smaller competitors out of the market in hopes of raising prices after they leave are rare. This strategy can only be successful if the short-run losses from pricing below cost will be made up for by much higher prices over a longer period of time after competitors leave the market. Although the FTC examines claims of predatory pricing carefully, courts, including the Supreme Court, have been skeptical of such claims.

Q: The gas station down the street offers a discount program that gives members cents off every gallon purchased. I can't match those prices because they are below my costs. If I try to compete at those prices, I will go out of business. Isn't this illegal?

A: Pricing below a competitor's costs occurs in many competitive markets and generally does not violate the antitrust laws. Sometimes the low-pricing firm is simply more efficient. Pricing below your own costs is also not a violation of the law unless it is part of a strategy to eliminate competitors, and when that strategy has a dangerous probability of creating a monopoly for the discounting firm so that it can raise prices far into the future and recoup its losses. In markets with a large number of sellers, such as gasoline retailing, it is unlikely that one company could price below cost long enough to drive out a significant number of rivals and attain a dominant position.https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/predatory-or-below-cost

[torquer]

... in other words...money, money, money flowing into the winning city which is why there is a bidding war going on because those cities know they stand to make a mint.
Cities don't "make a mint." Politicians get to attend groundbreakings and ribbon cuttings, and, if things work out, go on to either higher office or lucrative lobbying or consulting gigs, leaving someone else to worry about balancing the books (or, just as likely, kicking that can down the road.)
Another poster replied (sarcastically) "But... Big business is bad ." Business is business, and will maximize its profits any way that doesn't land leadership in jail. (And that's quite a ways, judging from recent history. But I digress...)
The real problem with this HQ deal, IMO, is the expected rush of candidate cities to shower Amazon with offers of money from the public coffers (and that included foregone tax revenue) while the benefits are entirely speculative, and we can't even agree how to account for them. What guarantees are being offered by Amazon? Ask the folks in Harrisburg about all those great jobs at the Foxconn plant.
I brought up the NFL because every analysis of economic benefits from new stadiums (save those commissioned by the sports leagues themselves) show trivial post-construction job gains at best. Bids to host the Olympics depend on similar creative accounting. Amazon isn't that bad AFAIK, but I would still keep my hand on my wallet when someone offers money, money, money.

[cmg]

Here's what happened when Amazon moved to Schertz Tx https://www.sacurrent.com/sanantonio/warehouse-woes-amazon-and-the-new-middle-class/Content?oid=2246759 "The City of Schertz paid $7.6 million in subsidies to the mega-corporation in order to secure the 1.26 million-square-foot warehouse that will bring “good job[s] in a durable, growing industry” according to a recent speech from President Obama, delivered at an Amazon fulfillment center (company lingo for ‘warehouse’) in Tennessee. Later in the article, Amazon isn’t coming to Schertz to uplift Texas workers; it is coming here to exploit them." Many companies providing these so-called “middle-class” jobs have used the economic recession as an excuse to cut wages, which led to them realizing record profits. According to the National Employment Law Project, most of the jobs lost since 2008 paid between $13.53 and $20.66 an hour while the majority of the jobs gained in the same period paid between $7.51 and $13.52. Not as happy place to work as they would like you to believe.

[froze]

Cities don't "make a mint." Politicians get to attend groundbreakings and ribbon cuttings, and, if things work out, go on to either higher office or lucrative lobbying or consulting gigs, leaving someone else to worry about balancing the books (or, just as likely, kicking that can down the road.)
Another poster replied (sarcastically) "But... Big business is bad ." Business is business, and will maximize its profits any way that doesn't land leadership in jail. (And that's quite a ways, judging from recent history. But I digress...)
The real problem with this HQ deal, IMO, is the expected rush of candidate cities to shower Amazon with offers of money from the public coffers (and that included foregone tax revenue) while the benefits are entirely speculative, and we can't even agree how to account for them. What guarantees are being offered by Amazon? Ask the folks in Harrisburg about all those great jobs at the Foxconn plant.
I brought up the NFL because every analysis of economic benefits from new stadiums (save those commissioned by the sports leagues themselves) show trivial post-construction job gains at best. Bids to host the Olympics depend on similar creative accounting. Amazon isn't that bad AFAIK, but I would still keep my hand on my wallet when someone offers money, money, money.

The problem with NFL is that those fancy hundred million dollar stadiums are built on the backs of taxpayers who live in the city where the stadium is! NFL, like all sports, should be paid strictly and only by either donations from non profits, and or from ticket buyers, and or from promotions, and or the junk they sell, etc. Why do taxpayers pay for these stadiums is beyond me, this would be like if Walmart wanted to build a superstore they get the city to give them the money to build it and it would be paid by the taxpayers; it should be like any other commercial enterprise, it succeeds or fails on it's own.

The city does make a substantial amount of money on these deals, more than you think, but that all goes into city building projects, police, etc, the only way that money goes into politicians pockets of the city is if they vote themselves a raise. However the city does have special interest groups that get winning bids on projects, and those contractors will make money. So a lot of that money you don't see because it's absorbed by the infrastructure which when a big tax windfall comes to the city the city finds ways to spend the money as fast as it comes in so it appears nothing is being spent on city projects, the city might add more cops to the payroll, improve the sewer system, etc.

Where I live the city lost International Company who decided to move to the outskirts of Chicago, and the city lost quite a bit of money.

[pbarry]

Denver is doing fine without the addition of 50k mediocre jobs. The average new Amazon employee will struggle to find an affordable starter home, and will have to hunt for reasonable rent on their salary. Our unemployment is at a record low, so more people will move here to fill the void(?), if everything comes together. I hope the Mayor/City Council/et al who have sway don't cave on any expectations or demands the big A might have. :eek:

[Davist]

Uh, isn't Netflix's video service in house? OpenConnect? I believe a lot of analytics and user info is stored in AWS, but not the actual streaming. That said I have to say, it's not just the retail side which is predatory. Read the reviews on glassdoor. Talk to employees; unless you're single, people in my age range are working crazy long hours to keep their managers happy.
.

Netflix has no in house data centers, after a failure some years ago, they outsourced everything.. Part of the content is handled through "edge" colocation data centers closer to customers for latency/resiliency reasons, the "business critical" is all on AWS.

Agreed it's not a nice place to work, I had them as a customer, and the churn of 3 global directors for "commodity" sourcing (electrical infrastructure) in 18 months was bad..

As to %age, AWS still says they do 100%, independent sites say "most" (2 versions of the story below):

https://aws.amazon.com/solutions/case-studies/netflix/

https://aws.amazon.com/solutions/case-studies/netflix/

[froze]

Denver is doing fine without the addition of 50k mediocre jobs. The average new Amazon employee will struggle to find an affordable starter home, and will have to hunt for reasonable rent on their salary. Our unemployment is at a record low, so more people will move here to fill the void(?), if everything comes together. I hope the Mayor/City Council/et al who have sway don't cave on any expectations or demands the big A might have. :eek:

Well if all that you said is true then why would Denver be lobbying for Amazon to come? It would seem to me with that low unemployment that Denver has they would just stay out of the process and let a more needy city get it the jobs, like Detroit! Just to name one of many cities ruined after years of democrat mayors.

[r_mutt]

Performance Bike = Starbucks (corporate)

i prefer the local small business bike shop. there are no Performance Bikes here but plenty of local shops with lot's of character. i went to a Performance in Ca years ago and it was so Walmart-esque feeling. no thanks!

[froze]

Performance Bike = Starbucks (corporate)

i prefer the local small business bike shop. there are no Performance Bikes here but plenty of local shops with lot's of character. i went to a Performance in Ca years ago and it was so Walmart-esque feeling. no thanks!

There are some good reasons to go to a LBS, and some don't mind paying more money for the same stuff they could have gotten at an online store, and all of that is fine if that's what you want to do, but I'm a business man, I'm always buying things at the best price I can find because spending more than necessary is a waste of money, please note this is my opinion.

But when I go to an LBS and see their selection of tires like Vittoria Rubino Pro III tires for $95 but find them on line for $24 it doesn't take a genius to figure out which place I'm going to go to get those tires, most places have free shipping but even if I pay for shipping for those tires it will cost $12 to ship a pair, and now with taxes there will be an additional $3.36 for the pair, so the total cost will be $63.36 for a pair vs $203.30 for a pair plus taxes at the LBS, so sorry if I sound stupid to you but I would rather save $139 plus dollars!

That is just one of thousands examples I can show. At my LBS the lowest costing socks they have is $12 for a pair, not a big deal but I needed 3 pairs which would have ran $36 plus tax brings it to $38.52, I got 3 pairs from Performance for $16 which included tax and shipping. Personally I think cycling sock prices are rip off no matter what, but that's the sport we're in.

That doesn't mean I never buy from an LBS, I get about 90% of my purchases on line, occasionally I need something right now, or the price difference is so small it's just more convenient to get it at the LBS, but on most items I can save at least 30% (even after including shipping and taxes) by getting my cycling stuff on line.

I don't buy everything from Performance or Nashbar (they are the same company now), but probably about 50% goes through them the rest is scattered out amoung other companies. I always get stuff on sale or usually closeouts which the LBS's in my town never reduce prices even on closeouts by more than 10% off retail, whereas on line I can get up to 75% off their already lower prices than an LBS.

It just makes good sense to me, being a business man, to get my stuff where I can find it the cheapest. What I do isn't unlike what corporations do! Yup, it's the same reason corporations went to China to get their crap made because they could save money and make bigger profits, so I do basically the same thing, find the lowest prices and save money which leaves more money in my bank account to spend on other things...on sale of course! LOL!

By the way, Performance is not like Walmart, Walmart will sell the cheapest thing they can get, they won't sell, for example only, Vittoria rubino Pro III tires, they'll sell Bell tires which no LBS in their right mind would carry and nor does any on line store including Performance, Performance only carries name brand stuff except for their own line of things. So no, Performance isn't even close to being like a Walmart.

[Gsinill]

Performance Bike = Starbucks (corporate)

i prefer the local small business bike shop. there are no Performance Bikes here but plenty of local shops with lot's of character. i went to a Performance in Ca years ago and it was so Walmart-esque feeling. no thanks!

Problem is that most LBS are not much different from PB, besides the size and maybe the atmosphere of the store.
It's limited knowledge and a focus on products that doesn't work for me, neither with PB nor with most LBS.
Just walk into the average LBS and ask whether they will cold set a steel frame or try to buy a set of Campagnolo UT BB cups...

[r_mutt]

Perhaps I'm spoiled here in NYC. There are more than a few shops with excellent selection and knowledge (for the most part). As for prices, yes, we all know where to shop when we're are being price conscious, but I've never felt the need to shop online at PB. There are other online avenues with the same or much better prices with a great selection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[froze]

Problem is that most LBS are not much different from PB, besides the size and maybe the atmosphere of the store.
It's limited knowledge and a focus on products that doesn't work for me, neither with PB nor with most LBS.
Just walk into the average LBS and ask whether they will cold set a steel frame or try to buy a set of Campagnolo UT BB cups...

Agreed, most LBS's hire in our area seasonal employees that are college students and they learn as they go which means they don't ever learn much before they quit. Our largest LBS does have two guys that have been there for over 9 years and they seem to know more than a normal LBS. Some places do have very top notch people working, I really liked the Team Action Sports in Bakersfield Ca, they always had the right information and Kerry Ryan was always on hand if you needed something more; in all the places I lived or been to I never came across a better place then Team Action Sports, not saying their the best in the US, I said they were the best of all the places I lived or had been to.

[fiamme red]

From an op-ed by Richard Florida in today's Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/stop-giving-store-n-y-article-1.3494046):

...Across the country, states, cities and counties give away tens of billions of dollars in incentives to entice companies to move into their jurisdictions every year.

My own research shows that there is virtually no association between these economic development initiatives and any measure of economic performance. They are not associated with higher wages, greater shares of knowledge workers or lower unemployment rates. The broad body of evidence suggests that they do not even cause companies to choose certain locations over others.

Companies typically know exactly where they want to locate in advance. Then, they pick a few other prospective locations and pit them against one another so they can extract the best deal.

As often as not, companies would have located where they did without any incentives at all, so the net result is simply to shrink the localities’ tax bases.

Even worse, since smaller cities are often the most willing to deal, the places that can least afford it are paying the most and getting very little in return...

[weisan]

From an op-ed by Richard Florida in today's Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/stop-giving-store-n-y-article-1.3494046):

Good insight. Sounds logical.

[Elefantino]

Performance Bike = Starbucks (corporate)

i prefer the local small business bike shop. there are no Performance Bikes here but plenty of local shops with lot's of character. i went to a Performance in Ca years ago and it was so Walmart-esque feeling. no thanks!
Years ago?

I ate spinach once years ago and got sick.

[jwd]

Performance is sort of like the Guitar Center of bike shops. I usually prefer to go to a LBS, but once in a while there will be a sale that makes it worth while. It's not my favorite place, but I hope they stick around.

This year I've seen 3 local bike shops in my area close. I'm trying to spend $ at the ones that are still open. Even if it's something small like tools, tubes, bartape, etc.

[torquer]

... like Detroit! Just to name one of many cities ruined after years of democrat mayors.

From another, but related thread:

This listing came out today, if relevant to this conversation:
https://www.glassdoor.com/List/Best-Cities-for-Jobs-LST_KQ0,20.htm

Of those 27 cities in the Glassdoor list (two sets of twins), only two Republican and one Independent mayor.
Might as well say that Detroit was ruined by mayors who were men, or guys in suits.

[gasman]

It would seem to me with that low unemployment that Denver has they would just stay out of the process and let a more needy city get it the jobs, like Detroit! Just to name one of many cities ruined after years of democrat mayors.

Please lets leave politics out of this discussion.

[r_mutt]

Years ago?



I ate spinach once years ago and got sick.



False equivalence


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[froze]

Please lets leave politics out of this discussion.

The discussion was about cities that need a large 50,000 employement base, Denver was discussed as not needing one, Detroit was discussed as needing one, how is that politics? Other than I mentioned Democrat mayors, which is what Detroit has had many years of, not politics, history.

[Vientomas]

The discussion was about cities that need a large 50,000 employement base, Denver was discussed as not needing one, Detroit was discussed as needing one, how is that politics? Other than I mentioned Democrat mayors, which is what Detroit has had many years of, not politics, history.

What was the point of stating the political affiliation of the mayors of Detroit, if not to bring politics into the discussion?

Leans in listening attentively for your reply.

[froze]

What was the point of stating the political affiliation of the mayors of Detroit, if not to bring politics into the discussion?

Leans in listening attentively for your reply.

maybe you should read attentively, it was historical not politics, the only reason why it now has turned political is because of you wanting it that way by attacking what I said, which only means one thing, your a democrat, had I said republican you would have never responded with all this political mumbo jumbo. Now see, now you done it, you made me go political by responding to you over this.

[Vientomas]

maybe you should read attentively, it was historical not politics, the only reason why it now has turned political is because of you wanting it that way by attacking what I said, which only means one thing, your a democrat, had I said republican you would have never responded with all this political mumbo jumbo. Now see, now you done it, you made me go political by responding to you over this.

I attacked you? Wow, that's an interesting take on my question. Then you claim I "made you go political"? I had no idea I wielded that much power. I'm the one responding with "political mumbo jumbo"? Hmmmm..yeah, right. Thanks for the morning laugh! Congratulations, you made my ignore list.

[Gsinill]

maybe you should read attentively, it was historical not politics, the only reason why it now has turned political is because of you wanting it that way by attacking what I said, which only means one thing, your a democrat, had I said republican you would have never responded with all this political mumbo jumbo. Now see, now you done it, you made me go political by responding to you over this.

With all due respect, it was gasman (a moderator) who called you out for bringing politics into this thread.

[shovelhd]

With all due respect, it was gasman (a moderator) who called you out for bringing politics into this thread.

And he was very polite in asking. Please pay attention to the forum rules.

[oldpotatoe]

The discussion was about cities that need a large 50,000 employement base, Denver was discussed as not needing one, Detroit was discussed as needing one, how is that politics? Other than I mentioned Democrat mayors, which is what Detroit has had many years of, not politics, history.

Denver's mayor is a Democrat, has been since 1963....:)

[William]

No matter how it started, politics is a one of the :no: stated in the forum rules. Please do not push it any further.





William

[froze]

With all due respect, it was gasman (a moderator) who called you out for bringing politics into this thread.

With all due respect to the mod, I don't care who he is! I don't tip toe around "important" people, they put their pants on the same way as I do. What I said I stand by, it was a simply a historical intent and no political intention. If it will make him happy by saying I was bringing politics into it then so be it, then you make him happy with your comments, but I won't make him happy by changing what I said, or lying by admitting I was being political because it wasn't political. How many more times do I have to say this? It was historical, although now it has become hysterical!!

That's the problem with this world, we get into wars over political misunderstandings or misinterpretations that were never intended to be political but they evolved that way.

[peanutgallery]

is usually followed by a statement filled with none. Didn't you pay attention to Ricky Bobby? Ease up a little there, Cowboy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af-Id_fuXFA


With all due respect to the mod, I don't care who he is! I don't tip toe around "important" people, they put their pants on the same way as I do. What I said I stand by, it was a simply a historical intent and no political intention. If it will make him happy by saying I was bringing politics into it then so be it, then you make him happy with your comments, but I won't make him happy by changing what I said, or lying by admitting I was being political because it wasn't political. How many more times do I have to say this? It was historical, although now it has become hysterical!!

That's the problem with this world, we get into wars over political misunderstandings or misinterpretations that were never intended to be political but they evolved that way.

[gasman]

The mods have decided that this thread is closed as it has drifted from it's original question and purpose and brought politics into the discussion even if the person who did so doesn't recognize it.