i got really busy at work, now I know nothing of the state of the industry

[pavel]

I've been totally absent from competitive riding, training, forums, internet, free time etc. I just peeked in to do some data gathering on a potential build and I am freaking lost.


Just starting with Campy:
What. waaaat.

So correct me if I'm wrong on my timeline and please provide answers/insight if there are any.

In 2010 all 10speed and 11 athena goes powershift/power torque. Right?
->At this point, are 10 and 11s derailleur compatible? Does an 11s shifter correctly move a 10s derailleur and a 10 shifter can move an 11 derailleur? (I think I already know from back then that the answer is no but I just cant remember for the life of me.)

2012-ish the powershift gets a facelift with droopy shift buttons that look like EPS. Was that the only change?

2013ish? they introduce Ultratorque OT for people with gigantic bb shells.

2014? The top end groups get the 4 arm crank, which still, why, but thats a matter of taste I guess.
->At this point does anything change in terms of derailleur geometry and cable pull? Assuming 10 and 11 shifters could control 11 and 10 derailleurs before, can they still do so?


2015 I assume there is a big redesign of the internals, because I'm seeing warnings all over retailer saying "this is for 2015+ drivetrains"
->what happened here? what was changed and what are the implications for practical interoperability between groups and years?
->The 2015 Chorus derailleur looks like some kind of Borg device, even compared to the previous version. This isnt really a question.
->I'm seeing derailleurs referred to as S2. What is this?

2016 Athena is retired? and replaced by Potenza. I think I remember reading that you guys had feelings about this.
->Centaur is now 11s? is everything 11s?


Is there an article/chart/reasonable explanation for any of this?


.....so now is it a good time for me to upgrade my campy stuff to 11? How about to EPS? :p

[pavel]

This probably merits a separate thread, but if one was inclined to upgrade to EPS, is now a good time? Is it as good/better/worse than DI2 or Etap?

Whats up with EPS compatibility? Does athena work only on athena and chorus only on chorus? Can you mix components and versions?

[ldamelio]

One man's opinion (Campyphile on road but SRAM for cross). E-Tap has changed the game to wireless and EPS and Di2 will have to follow suit in the next couple of years to keep up, especially when ETap trickles down to Rival/Force. It's a game changer because it eliminates all the nonsense of junction boxes, frame holes for wiring and the associated compatibility issues, where to hide the battery, etc. I have no inside knowledge but guess that Shimano and Campy will come out with wireless of necessity in the next couple of years to compete. Progress is inevitable. I'm happy with my current stable (Bike # 1 is 2009 mechanical Record). I would hang on for a couple of years and see what evolves. If I had the absolute need or an unscratchable itch at the moment, I'd get ETap and then re-evaluate when EPS and Di2 wireless appear.

[oldpotatoe]

I've been totally absent from competitive riding, training, forums, internet, free time etc. I just peeked in to do some data gathering on a potential build and I am freaking lost.


Just starting with Campy:
So correct me if I'm wrong on my timeline and please provide answers/insight if there are any.

In 2010 all 10speed and 11 athena goes powershift/power torque. Right?
->At this point, are 10 and 11s derailleur compatible? Does an 11s shifter correctly move a 10s derailleur and a 10 shifter can move an 11 derailleur? (I think I already know from back then that the answer is no but I just cant remember for the life of me.)

2012-ish the powershift gets a facelift with droopy shift buttons that look like EPS. Was that the only change?

2013ish? they introduce Ultratorque OT for people with gigantic bb shells.

2014? The top end groups get the 4 arm crank, which still, why, but thats a matter of taste I guess.
->At this point does anything change in terms of derailleur geometry and cable pull? Assuming 10 and 11 shifters could control 11 and 10 derailleurs before, can they still do so?


2015 I assume there is a big redesign of the internals, because I'm seeing warnings all over retailer saying "this is for 2015+ drivetrains"
->what happened here? what was changed and what are the implications for practical interoperability between groups and years?
->The 2015 Chorus derailleur looks like some kind of Borg device, even compared to the previous version. This isnt really a question.
->I'm seeing derailleurs referred to as S2. What is this?

2016 Athena is retired? and replaced by Potenza. I think I remember reading that you guys had feelings about this.
->Centaur is now 11s? is everything 11s?


Is there an article/chart/reasonable explanation for any of this?

.....so now is it a good time for me to upgrade my campy stuff to 11? How about to EPS? :p

Essentially correct but timeines a little off.
2009-11s and Utrashift introduced, new 'Gumby' shape levers thruout the line. Athena and above 11s, Centaur and Veloce 10s..
2011-Athena and below become 'Powershift', Chorus and above stay Ultrashift
2015-new rear ders, crank(4 arm, one crank, many chainring choices..53/50/48/39/36/34) and droopy levers for Powershift levers. In spite of 'warnings', 2015+ ders work fine with even 9s shifters..certainly compatible with 2014 and older 11s and 10s shifters. Droopy Powershift much more durable.

-Potenza introduced(11s) and now Centaur will go to 11s. Athena will exist in 2018 as the only triple group, Potenza double with mid cage rear ders and bigger cogsets(11-32)

s2 is a little lever on the top of front ders to make them stiffer for frames with wimpy brazeon tabs(lotsa carbon..EPS specific).

EPS-SR/Record intercompatible but Chorus as it morphed from Athena, has different connectors. You can 'upgrade' Athena EPS with Chorus interface and powerpack.

[oldpotatoe]

This probably merits a separate thread, but if one was inclined to upgrade to EPS, is now a good time? Is it as good/better/worse than DI2 or Etap?

Whats up with EPS compatibility? Does athena work only on athena and chorus only on chorus? Can you mix components and versions?

SR/Record EPS completely intercompatible. Chorus morphed from Athena and has different connectors. You can mix Chorus and Athena EPS but need Chorus interface and powerpack.

EPS-distinct 'clicks' of the shift levers. One shift lever per 'action'..internal or external battery. VERY programmable. Di2 essentially the same with smaller shift buttons and less 'click' but very programmable. etap, wireless, 4 batteries, somewhat 'different' shift protocols..RH lever higher gear, LH lever lower gear, both for the FD. 4 batterys. Easy setup, comes from sram(another thread, IMHO)..

Time will tell if di2 becomes wireless. shimano doesn't respond to the 'market', sees some things unnecessary(carbon cranks, BB30..). If you disregard install(and many do not install), I prefer EPS and Di2...

[binxnyrwarrsoul]

SR/Record complete intercompatible. Chorus morphed from Athena and has different connectors. You can mix Chorus and Athena EPS but need Chorus interface and powerpack.

EPS-distinct 'clicks' of the shift levers. One shift lever per 'action'..internal or external battery. VERY programmable. Di2 essentially the same with smaller shift buttons and less 'click' but very programmable. etap, wireless, 4 batteries, somewhat 'different' shift protocols..RH lever higher gear, LH lever lower gear, both for the FD. 4 batterys. Easy setup, comes from sram(another thread, IMHO)..

Time will tell if di2 becomes wireless. shimano doesn't respond to the 'market', sees some things unnecessary(carbon cranks, BB30..). If you disregard install(and many do not install), I prefer EPS and Di2...

Grand poo-bah!!!!

[oldpotatoe]

I should mention, shimano went thru the same sort of gig...

2009-Di2 but 10s and not compatible with any Di2 after it..unique like 8s DA.

2012-shimano goes to 11s..the good, 11s, follows Campag(2009), the bad, all shimano based 10s wheels now obsolete. 4 arm crank that allows for multiple CR combos..one BCD.
The good, shimano 11s and Campag 11s intercompatible, cogset spacing/chain wise.

[sales guy]

Time will tell if di2 becomes wireless. shimano doesn't respond to the 'market', sees some things unnecessary(carbon cranks, BB30..). If you disregard install(and many do not install), I prefer EPS and Di2...


See, I don't think Shimano will do something wonky like a carbon crank and BB30. They tried carbon once and only in a limited number and only in 172.5mm arms. It looked cool but they hated it and Kozo was super against it. I think given HollowTech being kind of the standard they will stick with 24mm spindles. Much simpler and less issues. They like less issues.

Now, I love the idea of Wireless Di2. That makes sense. But unless they could get it dialed well AND secure their own patents, they won't do it. That's another thing Shimano loves, not having to use other peoples patents. They always want their own and license things out. More money and less work.

[oldpotatoe]

See, I don't think Shimano will do something wonky like a carbon crank and BB30. They tried carbon once and only in a limited number and only in 172.5mm arms. It looked cool but they hated it and Kozo was super against it. I think given HollowTech being kind of the standard they will stick with 24mm spindles. Much simpler and less issues. They like less issues.

Now, I love the idea of Wireless Di2. That makes sense. But unless they could get it dialed well AND secure their own patents, they won't do it. That's another thing Shimano loves, not having to use other peoples patents. They always want their own and license things out. More money and less work.


Yup, like threadless headsets...too expensive to 'own'...

Not surprised about no carbon cranks, they are alloy fab Zues'..
And they see no advantage to BB30...I agree.

[pavel]

Is there any significant difference between a late model 10s front derailleur and an early 11s? Can I safely assume an 11s shifter will do just fine with a 10s front derailleur?

[oldpotatoe]

Is there any significant difference between a late model 10s front derailleur and an early 11s? Can I safely assume an 11s shifter will do just fine with a 10s front derailleur?

Yes it will with 'ultrashift', SR/Record/Chorus and 2009/10 Athena. 'Powershift' became 'positional' ala shimano so is more specific in fder requirements.

[93KgBike]

great clear reply oldpotatoe. thanks

[pavel]

Thanks for the replies.

Back to general questions....

Are we at 1x12 yet?

Has SRAM finally figured out how to make a *mechanical* front derailleur that works yet?

Whats up with 8000 ultegra and 9100 DA? More iterative "updates" without any real changes?

[oldpotatoe]

Thanks for the replies.

Back to general questions....

Are we at 1x12 yet?

Has SRAM finally figured out how to make a *mechanical* front derailleur that works yet?

Whats up with 8000 ultegra and 9100 DA? More iterative "updates" without any real changes?

No
'Sorta'
Kinda

[ptourkin]

Thanks for the replies.

Back to general questions....

Are we at 1x12 yet?

Has SRAM finally figured out how to make a *mechanical* front derailleur that works yet?

Whats up with 8000 ultegra and 9100 DA? More iterative "updates" without any real changes?

Someone I pay attention to has been raving about the 9100 FD. The new RD mounting is a big-ish update if you're interested in a bigger cassette.

[icepick_trotsky]

The new Shimano front derailleur is a genuine innovation. I don't know why it took the industry so long to figure out how to put a barrel adjuster on a FD.

[pavel]

'Sorta'

i like that even that response has to be in quotations.