Packing heat while riding: How do you conceal a weapon under a cycling kit?

[EPOJoe]

Just wondering, for you folks that ride armed, what do you carry and how do you conceal it wearing a skin tight bike kit? We've been having some issues here with the homeless along the American River Trail attacking cyclists, so I was considering getting a CCW. Can't really imagine how I'd conceal a weapon wearing a kit, unless it was a micro-gun in a micro caliber, that might fit in a jersey pocket.

[fiamme red]

https://cyclehistory.wordpress.com/2015/10/03/guns-wheels-and-steel-cyclists-and-small-arms-in-the-late-19th-century/

https://cyclehistory.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/i-fear-no-tramp.jpg

https://cyclehistory.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/liquid-pistol.png

[Louis]

This isn't a direct answer to the OP, but if I were in that situation I'd have to ask myself if my desire to ride on any given trail is so great that I'd be willing to shoot someone dead to do so.

[gasman]

Just carry bear spray/pepper spray. There's a number of companies that make holsters to carry them on your bars or stem.

It's a legitimate concern . I know two different friends that were assaulted while riding a MUP to work.

I have had a CCW for many years. I train regularly . That said, I would never consider a ride packing any weapon. Even if you win you are still going to lose in the court system, unless the perp is shooting at you. The most the homeless can afford here is a knife. Don't do it. Just don't.

[R3awak3n]

This isn't a direct answer to the OP, but if I were in that situation I'd have to ask myself if my desire to ride on any given trail is so great that I'd be willing to shoot someone dead to do so.

You are a smart guy Louis!


To the OP, don't ride with a gun. Come on, this is ridding bikes, it is suppose to be fun not some sort of survival game. If those trails aren't safe, don't ride them. One thing is having a gun at home, may offer protection, the other is taking a gun to a place you don't have to be at but knowing that there is a possibility you might use it. :no:

[FlashUNC]

If the American River Trail has gotten that bad, I'd just ride somewhere else.

[fiamme red]

If the American River Trail has gotten that bad, I'd just ride somewhere else.http://www.kcra.com/article/push-for-more-patrols-on-american-river-parkway/12039745

[jtakeda]

If the American River Trail has gotten that bad, I'd just ride somewhere else.

Going to agree. I don't think any road is worth riding if you have to kill someone.

The only scenario I can see where I ride with a gun is if I'm solo bike camping in the Alaskan wilderness and am afraid of bears or animals attacking.

[R3awak3n]

Going to agree. I don't think any road is worth riding if you have to kill someone.

The only scenario I can see where I ride with a gun is if I'm solo bike camping in the Alaskan wilderness and am afraid of bears or animals attacking.

absolutely

[nighthawk]

Different situation but riding in brown bear habitat in alaska I always carried a 44 magnum revolver on a chest holster. Not in cycling kit, of course. The locals would have laughed me out of the village. But it was cumbersome and not ideal. I think the pepper spray option is a better idea. It wouldn't have worked for me given the avg 25-30 mph winds.. but guessing that wouldn't be an issue where you are.

[Llewellyn]

Just wondering, for you folks that ride armed, what do you carry and how do you conceal it wearing a skin tight bike kit?

:eek: :eek:

[Lanternrouge]

According to the article, the issue is with the part of the bike trail by Discovery Park, which has always been problematic. It seems that riding city streets would avoid the issue, particularly since Sacramento has historically been tolerable for riding in the midtown/downtown areas.

[velotrack]

crazy stuff. i can't imagine carrying one comfortably, especially wearing a cycling kit - man, even my phone/keys feel bulky at times :p

[RyanH]

Isn't one of the first lessons learned when dealing with firearms is that a firearm should not be used as a way to get someone to back down. If you pull it out, you should be on your way to expecting to use it. Something along those lines or at least that's what I recall when we had an instructor way back when.

I've considered bringing a knife before but as others mentioned, pepper spray makes significant more sense and it's something I'd have little qualms on using against a crazy mugger. Knife and above would be something you'd have to live with.

[cadence90]

just wondering, for you folks that ride armed, what do you carry and how do you conceal it wearing a skin tight bike kit? We've been having some issues here with the homeless along the american river trail attacking cyclists, so i was considering getting a ccw.
w.t.f.???

[m4rk540]

http://www.velominati.com/the-rules/#33

[Bruce K]

If your question is serious, the answer is what gasman said - bear/pepper spray.

As others have said, the only reason to carry and then, when "needed", display a firearm is that you intend to use it. You will face scrutiny from law enforcement for every action and even if you feel justified, they may not.

Brandishing a firearm is an offense in many states, and while your attacker might not make the claim, the mommy jogging with her stroller can. You will be questioned in a manner similar to posters above as to why you carried and what was your intent. "Self defense" in a situation you know could lead to armed confrontation could land you in court with a need to prove it wasn't a pre-meditated assault.

All of this would be discussed in your safety course to get your permit.

I have a CCP but would never carry a firearm when cycling (but I don't camp/ride/tour in wildlife country) - spray maybe.

BK

[Peter P.]

EPOJoe-I'm not a gun owner but I recognize your right to carry, and I'll try to answer your question.

Unfortunately, I don't see any practical way to carry a concealed weapon on a bicycle, that also retains quick access.

Most handguns would be too large to fit safely, and certainly concealed, in a jersey pocket. The weight might cause your jersey to sag clumsily and if the gun was cleaned and lubed, there might be issues with it staining your kit.

You'd likely have to carry it in a small handlebar bag or frame bag. But if those homeless people tried to snatch your bike from you and there was a tussle for the bike, you'd be hard pressed to get access to it. Same goes with a small frame bag and certainly a saddle bag. And of course, if they snatched the bike from you then they'd have the gun too, which would lead to bigger headaches.

Try posting on some of the gun forums where there might be more experienced gun owners that could direct you to solutions.

That said, I agree with many of the posters that pepper spray would be a more practical solution. It would be lighter, be concealable depending on size, and involve fewer legal irritations if used. Some versions come with UV dye which will mark the target, for later identification by police.

Heck; even a can of HALT! dog spray would be effective. And the good thing about HALT! is if it was attached externally to the bike (they used to sell handlebar mount clips for it) most people would recognize it for what it is and have no clue that you're using it for personal safety from people. That innocuousness makes it an even more effective concealed weapon as well as not drawing attention to itself.

[biker72]

Being a conceal carry license holder in Texas I can legally carry.
If I were to carry, my Camelbak would be a good place to hide the gun.
I chose not to because of all the potential problems that can arise.

If the bullet misses the bad guy and hits a mom pushing a stroller you're in big trouble.

Justified or not you'll be sued by the bad guys relatives forever.

I try to avoid any bad areas of town and confrontation as much as possible.

[Blown Reek]

It seems those who are the fastest cyclists don't have these concerns.

[Tickdoc]

Being a conceal carry license holder in Texas I can legally carry.
If I were to carry, my Camelbak would be a good place to hide the gun.
I chose not to because of all the potential problems that can arise.

If the bullet misses the bad guy and hits a mom pushing a stroller you're in big trouble.

Justified or not you'll be sued by the bad guys relatives forever.

I try to avoid any bad areas of town and confrontation as much as possible.

I agree with all of that. Especially with the sued by bad guys part. I know from a close friend how true and hard that road can be: Harassment from the relatives of the deceased is never-ending, even if it was a justified killing. You protect yourself from harm and spend the rest of your life labelled as a killer.

I don't want that guilt and/or reputation.

But,..... I do have a buddy who ride carries from time to time. His is a .38, and there are plenty of options in that and 9mm from ruger, kel-tec, and many others. Easy to have a lightweight sleeve holster made or even just a trigger guard holster to keep the gun safe while riding.

My concern is greater for dogs, than sketchy trails. We do ride them from time to time, but I hate trails and it is usually as a part of a group ride using them to connect to the country roads we want to access. Strength in numbers there.

Best of luck.

[biker72]

It seems those who are the fastest cyclists don't have these concerns.

I would have major concerns......:D
Agree with Ticdoc that my real concern is dogs in the rural areas.

[jambee]

This is the most bizarre question I have ever read on the forum.

Why would you need a gun on a bike????

[William]

I fully support a persons right to carry for self protection. That said. as Bruce pointed out, there are numerous reasons why it’s not always necessarily a good idea. I would also suggest pepper spray which would likely be a better nonlethal option that is generally very effective. Collateral damage would be minimal to nonexistent. A firearm, impact, or edged weapon will require more training to become proficient with then pepper spray. If it comes to it you will still need to articulate why you felt threatened enough to deploy and use it.

Regardless of what you decide to carry, do some training with it so you become very familiar and efficient with deployment and use. If it’s pepper spray buy more than one and test it so you are familiar with how it deploys - activation, spray pattern, distance, and concentration.

The Kimber appears to have better ergonomics for cycling carry, but you’ll get more shots with the Inferno or similar type of canister spray.

Kimber Pepper Blaster deployment…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMmiLCdPckk

Cold Steel Inferno deployment…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwiYR9WzSPY






William

[djg21]

https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/170808-tiny-pocket-gun-01.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=606

A firearms manufacturer has designed a folding handgun that can deliver a deadly shot — despite being the same size as a credit card.

The tiny shooter — which can hold five .22 rounds — is the same dimensions as a stack of credit cards and can fit in a wallet.

The Lifecard.22LR, known as “the last gun you’ll leave behind,” is small enough to fit in a wallet and weighs just 7 ounces — less than a Big Mac.


But I don’t get this:

“We’d like to emphasize LifeCard is not a pistol that should be relied on for personal defense

“Rather, we consider LifeCard to be a fun addition to anyone’s firearms collection.

http://nypost.com/2017/08/08/the-worlds-tiniest-gun-fits-in-your-wallet/

I carry a Kimber Pepperblaster now. I’ve never needed to use it.

[zap]

edit

Just carry bear spray/pepper spray.

Wise.

[William]

I carry a Kimber Pepperblaster now. I’ve never needed to use it.


But, you are prepared just in case. :)





William

[MattTuck]

You are a smart guy Louis!


To the OP, don't ride with a gun. Come on, this is ridding bikes, it is suppose to be fun not some sort of survival game. If those trails aren't safe, don't ride them. One thing is having a gun at home, may offer protection, the other is taking a gun to a place you don't have to be at but knowing that there is a possibility you might use it. :no:

I hate to say it, but this philosophy reeks of acquiescence, appeasement and surrender. We're not talking about some back alley behind a warehouse in an industrial district, we're talking about a bike path that is ostensibly built as a public right of way for travel and recreation. No one should be intimidated off of that space.

While it might be true that an individual might seek to avoid it, if EVERYONE makes that same decision, then you've effectively given up the public's claim on that area.


As to the OP, I'd forget about carrying it concealed. Get a mount for your head tube and ride with it mounted there.

[djg21]

I hate to say it, but this philosophy reeks of acquiescence, appeasement and surrender. We're not talking about some back alley behind a warehouse in an industrial district, we're talking about a bike path that is ostensibly built as a public right of way for travel and recreation. No one should be intimidated off of that space.

While it might be true that an individual might seek to avoid it, if EVERYONE makes that same decision, then you've effectively given up the public's claim on that area.


As to the OP, I'd forget about carrying it concealed. Get a mount for your head tube and ride with it mounted there.

http://glock.pro/attachments/glock-pistols/7040d1404440164-bicycle-wipe-out-when-carrying-glock-post-7002-0-90012100-1397584614.jpg

Some interesting history here:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/great-moments-in-bicycle-powered-warfare-1559730694

[parris]

I understand the use of force well. Before making any choices as to what/how/when/if to carry anything take a look on line at any of the use of force continuum images that are out there.

One of the things to be aware of at all times in any potential use of force scenario is would the amount of force applied be considered "reasonable". This is a very involved subject on many levels and one that requires a good amount of study.

I've carried as part of my career for the last 22 both on and off duty and it's a responsibility not to be taken lightly or in a rash manner.

[Bruce K]

I was hoping you would comment, parris, as you deal with this issue (carrying) on an almost daily basis.

I would guess the credit card thing would be unsuitable at several levels:
Accuracy - very short barrel (probably not very good past 8-10 feet)
Accessibility - you still have to dig it out, unfold it, and maybe chamber a round?
Stopping power - it's a .22 - unless you hit something really vital it won't do much

BK

[tuscanyswe]

This is the most bizarre question I have ever read on the forum.

Why would you need a gun on a bike????

It would be for me to unless i had read the exact same question in numerous threads on here all rdy..

Its bizarre idd! And the posts here really make me wonder about ppl to be honest.

[Anarchist]

This is the most bizarre question I have ever read on the forum.

Why would you need a gun on a bike????

Except that it comes up here on a regular basis.

I really wonder about the desire/need for a gun while on a bike, or at all, but people here seem to accept this as normal.

Very odd.

[Mzilliox]

No problem saying it here: this is crazy talk! seriously crazy talk.

Dude, just ride faster or something. It would never ever occur to me to bring a gun riding, never, ever, not ever. And if i knew someone else brought a gun riding, i would talk crap and never ride again with that person. I dont even fish with a person who tried to bring a gun on my boat. there is no way to win in this situation

[false_Aest]

If your decision making process leads you down this path* I hate to see what your decision making process leads you to when you've got stranger-danger in your sites, your blood sugar is a bit low and your nerves are already rattled because Mr. Squirrel just tried to commit suicide in your spokes.

May I suggest contacting a firearms training facility. Ask them to develop a training program based around you riding your bike in spandex and being attacked by a meth head. Why? Because w/out proper training people tend to freeze in high-stress situations or do other minor things like shoot the wrong person.

Seriously. I like guns. I like them a lot. But if I fumble around trying to take a gel packet out when I'm hot, tired and sweaty . . .




*see what I did there?

[Gsinill]

It would be for me to unless i had read the exact same question in numerous threads on here all rdy..

Its bizarre idd! And the posts here really make me wonder about ppl to be honest.

And like pretty much all threads that have the words "gun" or "packing heat" in their subject, I predict max. 2 more pages before this one will be locked as well ;)

[MattTuck]

Except that it comes up here on a regular basis.

I really wonder about the desire/need for a gun while on a bike, or at all, but people here seem to accept this as normal.

Very odd.

I accept it as someone else's constitutionally enshrined right; and hope anyone who makes the decision to carry a fire arm is doing so thoughtfully, weighing the advantages and disadvantages carefully, and considering the heavy responsibility that comes with it. And having done so, and deciding it is what they want, have come here to ask for advice on the best way to do it, so I try to give the best advice I can in that situation.

That doesn't mean I am carrying a gun when I ride.

[sparky33]

No thanks. Guns don't do anything for me.

[dbnm]

I live in Albuquerque, a city with many troubles.

About 4 years ago, while out on my bike, I had a verbal altercation with a very large man who was probably high on something at 11am. I was not physically harmed but things were escalating before other citizens got involved.

That afternoon I purchased bear spray that I carried for a few months until I calmed down. Here are somethings to look at http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/sportsmans/Pepper-Sprays/category/cat100464/sort/bestSellerasce/ipp/24/pn/1/trail/false/view/false

I see an armed cyclist several times a week. He has a large .45 caliber on his hip and always wears a face mask. The first time I saw him I nearly soiled myself.

If you carry a gun and fire it, remember you "own" that bullet until it stops.

I would definitely look into other options.

[shamsixnine]

The OP question was how to carry, not if to carry. Go to your LGS, and ask them. I'm sure they have some options that will help.

[clyde the point]

Lots of good posts here from people who obviously understand firearms and the responsibility that goes with carrying them. Being trained and knowledgeable about the state laws is always imperative when considering packing heat. I would rather defend myself in court rather than have my wife and children left fatherless husbandless because I chose not to protect myself. There's lots of ways you can carry concealed on a bike. The Smith & Wesson bodyguard 380 fits into a front pocket holster in your jersey pocket and other than you having to keep it clean and maintained because of sweat will serve the purpose just fine. To each his own. Whether you like or you don't like guns I don't really care. They have a place and when used appropriately can save lives .

[William]

Lots of good posts here from people who obviously understand firearms and the responsibility that goes with carrying them. Being trained and knowledgeable about the state laws is always imperative when considering packing heat. I would rather defend myself in court rather than have my wife and children left fatherless husbandless because I chose not to protect myself. There's lots of ways you can carry concealed on a bike. The Smith & Wesson bodyguard 380 fits into a front pocket holster in your jersey pocket and other than you having to keep it clean and maintained because of sweat will serve the purpose just fine. To each his own. Whether you like or you don't like guns I don't really care. They have a place and when used appropriately can save lives .

Agree, if one chooses to carry then the responsible thing to do is train with it regularly to become proficient in its use. The better trained you are, the more in control you will be if the unfortunate situation arises where it would be needed. Im my experience, the better trained a person is, the less likely they will be to go to that option or use excessive force (more than is needed) to bring a situation under control.

That said, I don't have any comments for specific carry holsters etc... I default back to suggesting the pepper spray as I did earlier, but ultimately that choice is up to you...as is your right under your local laws concerning carry.







William

[Bostic]

When I visit Sacramento, I always ride the American River Bike Trail as there is no equivalent to it where I live for the amount of sheer miles without cars. However I never enter it until east of Howe or Watt which is past the shady areas that I've read about.

When I picked up my Steve Rex bike, I did enter the trail by his shop for a quick test ride. That part, yeah, not in a rush to do that again. Worse than 6th street in San Francisco. A firearm is just too dangerous, bear spray or avoid that area.

[parris]

Bruce I posted a longish reply a little while ago but got timed out. When I signed back on it got lost. I'll write a bit on the subject later.

[gdw]

No problem saying it here: this is crazy talk! seriously crazy talk.

Dude, just ride faster or something. It would never ever occur to me to bring a gun riding, never, ever, not ever. And if i knew someone else brought a gun riding, i would talk crap and never ride again with that person. I dont even fish with a person who tried to bring a gun on my boat. there is no way to win in this situation

I don't carry but know a number of people in our liberal bastion of Boulder, Colorado who do including at least one that is well known in the road cycling community. All are very responsible people and you would never know they were packing unless they told you.

Back to the original question....
Custom top tube bags, tool rolls, and pouches will hold a small pistol quite well and the pouches and rolls can easily fit into a jersey pocket. Small automatics in .25,32,380 caliber are easier to conceal than most of the larger caliber pistols.

[54ny77]

to the question of how to carry, a pal who i ride with now & then rides a recumbent, and his ccw is in a bag mounted on rear of seat. he's former high level gov't guy who dealt with bad people regularly, so for him ccw is an extra measure he observes and is very comfortable with, of course (along with carrying all the required licensing).

[93KgBike]

No-one has a problem opening fire in public anymore, again. May I suggest riding a trainer in a bunker? Filled with guns & ammo, of course.

[FlashUNC]

Can always wear it around your neck on a string, like Tuco in the The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7UHICy8Etfo/TGxx0Ah3saI/AAAAAAAAK7s/iHr_yNjU4KI/s1600/The+Good,+the+Bad,+and+the+Ugly.jpg

[William]

No-one has a problem opening fire in public anymore, again. May I suggest riding a trainer in a bunker? Filled with guns & ammo, of course.

That's not the point at all, any responsible law abiding citizen wants that to be the last resort.






William

[ducati2]

There used to be a bodybuilder kind of guy that rode around Seattle on beautiful Italian bikes with a huge broadsword strapped across his back. Nobody messed with him.

[djg21]

Custom top tube bags, tool rolls, and pouches will hold a small pistol quite well and the pouches and rolls can easily fit into a jersey pocket. Small automatics in .25,32,380 caliber are easier to conceal than most of the larger caliber pistols.

This doesn’t sound viable as a means of self defense. You can’t really ask a perp in the midst of assaulting you to wait a minute while you open your tool roll to get to your firearm out so you can defend yourself. A cellphone with a camera probably makes more sense.

[fffuhq]

A ruger LCP is cheap and small enough to conceal in a jersey pocket. If you want an under rated cheaper version the Taurus TCP is also a good choice.:beer::banana:

[parris]

I'll write a few shorter messages on the subject.

Bruce you're correct in what you wrote about the posted firearm photo. It would be very tough to utilize in many situations and given the caliber it's effectiveness would be suspect.

The handgun is the most challenging firearm to learn to use effectively. Small compact/subcompact handguns are even more of a challenge for a host of reasons.

Some people that carry a firearm look to it as THE option without giving full measure to the responsibilities that go along with the option of that tool.

In our academy the recruits get several weeks of case law, P&P's, etc. Before the actual firearms block of training. We then give them a solid 2 weeks of intensive training on the weapon system with classroom and range. After that block of training they get another several weeks of DT which is dynamic.

For people that aren't in a LE role the initial ccw classes typically are just enough in order to qualify for your license. More later don't want to time out.

[ntb1001]

I don't know...maybe because I'm Canadian, I find all of this gun talk very disturbing. I can not imagine any scenario where a gun is needed during a ride.



Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

[Bruce K]

And i believe that is the point most of us are trying to convey.

Unless you are touring in the wilderness, there are plenty of options for self defense if you know you may need to defend yourself.

It sounds like party's will have more info later but read his posts thoroughly and carefully. He is VERY knowledgeable and speaks with an LE background.

BK

[sdrides]

The reality is that deploying a firearm in road shoes is a recipe for calamity, and probably disaster. I would honestly say that, unless you're prepared to make some accommodations with your footwear and other attire, carrying a gun is just not logistically that great of an idea. When wearing road cycling shoes, the best defense in a situation where you might have to punch/stab/shoot someone is to leave them in the dust at 20+ MPH.

But if you must, I'd say just keep it simple and go jersey pocket. And to me, common courtesy would dictate that you inform anyone riding with you that you're carrying. If you really think things are liable to escalate to that degree, it would be good for all to know.

[Climb01742]

I hope the OP comes back to this thread and helps us understand his thinking. I've lived in two places (NYC and Portland, OR) and spent a lot of time in another place (Santa Monica) where there were many homeless. I've been spit on, I've been chased out of subway cars and I've been pursued down city blocks by a ranting homeless dude who thought I looked at him funny. Maybe it's me, but my response was to change my behavior or change where I walked or find a cop as soon as I could. Firing on a homeless person never entered my thinking. I have a hard time getting to a point where my desire to do any behavior rises to the level of harming someone else, particularly someone who may be troubled on a few levels. I could be safe by going right instead of left or taking a cab instead of the subway.

[parris]

Here are a few things in no particular order on the subject.

In general a firearm will be seen as a last resort response to a violent encounter. Some of the things that will be typically be looked at are the following factors. age, gender, size, injury, exhaustion, special skills, number of opponents, ability to escape, environment, visibility, weapon opponent(s) have if any, opponent's proximity to intended victim, opponent's apparent mental state/intoxication/etc.

Any of the above and more items typically have a direct impact on the decision as to what is a reasonable course of action to take in a use of force encounter.

The tools that we choose to utilize in our tool box be they firearm, impact weapon, chemical agent, hands on, etc are just that tools. Proper training, mindset, and situational awareness is what should always be used first in order to minimize having to go to the other tools that someone may decide to carry. The general issue though is that the later takes effort and a measure of commitment that a number of people don't want to put forth.

A good cycling analogy would be the person that rides maybe 100 miles a week and wants to hang with the fast crowd on the weekend. Instead of upping mileage and quality of the ride they by the latest wonder gizmo and still ride at that 100 mile a week level.

I can say that I've seen Pepper spray just absolutely fold people the size of NFL linemen. I've also seen a few instances where it completely failed. Those people were generally EDP or otherwise on some kind of drug where it just didn't have any effect. Be aware that if any chemical agent is going to be utilized to really watch the wind and your direction of travel in relation to spray. Having been hit with it on more than one occasion it's just not a real fun time.

[parris]

Here are a few things to add.

If you ever utilize a firearm in a self defense matter be aware that you will very likely be arrested or at the least heavily questioned. Your firearm(s) will be taken until the disposal of the case. You will be sued civilly by the other party or their family. Responding LE have no way of knowing who the good guy/bad guy are when rolling up on a scene. They will treat everyone as a bad guy at least initially. Don't be surprised if you get put on the ground and do not turn around to face LE with a firearm in your hand. Be aware that anything stated will become part of a court record. There's a bunch of stuff I'm forgetting but it's important to touch on.

You are responsible for every projectile that leaves the muzzle of your firearm when you pull the trigger. Here are the 4 basic firearm rules.

Every firearm is loaded.
TFOTG Trigger Finger Outside the Trigger Guard until ready to fire.
Do not allow the muzzle of the firearm to cover anything you are not willing to destroy aka Laser rule.
Be aware of your target and beyond. Also known as target environment.

[gasman]

Thank you Parris
You covered many of the points that I've heard covered in the various handgun courses I've taken.
You'll also have , at best, 50% of the accuracy you have on a great range day. Wear bike shoes and it's even worse.

Try clearing a simulated shoot house with adrenaline flowing and you'll understand. I've got a CCP but rarely carry, like once every few years. There are too many other options available.

My main defense is situationsl awareness and to listen to that little voice in your head saying "Run away, run away" Unless it's a cougar or bear then it's "Walk away, walk away"

Leave carrying weapons on the streets to the professionals.

[parris]

Gasman thanks for bringing up a VERY good point about accuracy under stress.

I may be off with my numbers but the last thing that I remember hearing for OIS is that the hit rate drops to just over 20%. The dedicated person that carries actually has a higher hit percentage from what I remember. The issue comes down to many in the LE profession are not gun people and with training dollars being tight most administrations only care to meet state minimums. I've seen this multiple times over the years in training.

One of the things that we started using about 10 years ago are FX marking guns. These are purpose built Glocks that can only fire a special marking cartridge. The scenarios that we put officers through are all winnable in that there are no ninja's dropping from a roof top etc. The trainee and even us instructors get the adrenaline dump during the scenarios. Those little buggers sting and leave a pretty good mark when they connect. There's also no way to cheat the training with them.

[Skenry]

I won't say every time, but probably 75% of the time I have a LCP2 in the handlebar bag. It would fit easily in a jersey pocket, but maybe not too comfortably.
I gave up on "kit" years and years ago but won't forgo my personal safety.

[SoCalSteve]

I won't say every time, but probably 75% of the time I have a LCP2 in the handlebar bag. It would fit easily in a jersey pocket, but maybe not too comfortably.
I gave up on "kit" years and years ago but won't forgo my personal safety.

Curious where you live and ride your bicycle that you feel the need to carry a handgun with you on 75% of your rides.

Do you truly feel unsafe for your personal safety when you leave your home?

[mecse]

I won't say every time, but probably 75% of the time I have a LCP2 in the handlebar bag. It would fit easily in a jersey pocket, but maybe not too comfortably.
I gave up on "kit" years and years ago but won't forgo my personal safety.

:( I've never carried a pistol whilst cycling and it's never even occurred to me.

This makes me quite sad actually. If I felt like you do I would move.

[arazate]

At times I carry when I'm fishing, and at times when I mountain bike. Depends on the environment. I feel very fortunate to have the choice.

[Mzilliox]

This has been enlightening gentlemen, I was not aware how rampant fear is in adults. Its fascinating actually.

[ptourkin]

This has been enlightening gentlemen, I was not aware how rampant fear is in adults. Its fascinating actually.

Using only this forum as a sample, the statistical likelihood of being seriously injured engaging in our hobby (excluding commuters) is countless magnitudes higher than of being injured by another human in an incident serious enough to require the use of deadly force in self defense, which appears to be microscopically infinitesimal (absent anecdotal accounts of something that happened to someone else.) It really is fascinating.

[oldpotatoe]

Using only this forum as a sample, the statistical likelihood of being seriously injured engaging in our hobby (excluding commuters) is countless magnitudes higher than of being injured by another human in an incident serious enough to require the use of deadly force in self defense, which appears to be microscopically infinitesimal (absent anecdotal accounts of something that happened to someone else.) It really is fascinating.

These are strange times..And I think drives a lot of insecurity, IMHO, of course.

For right below, discussion group, people discussing. AND about guns...expect a variety of opinions..:cool:

[earlfoss]

What if the OP is aware of all of the legal and safety stuff everyone is talking about on here, is a responsible person, and just wants some tips on carrying while riding? All the "it's not my thing" posts, pics of machine guns mounted to bikes, and judgement calls aren't adding to the discussion. OH WAIT! This is an internet forum, never mind!

[LegendRider]

When pepper spray is recommended in lieu of a gun, the caveat - "be careful of the wind direction" - is almost always mentioned. But, is it reasonable to expect someone being attacked to assess the wind conditions before using pepper spray? And, if the wind is toward the victim, then what?

[SoCalSteve]

What if the OP is aware of all of the legal and safety stuff everyone is talking about on here, is a responsible person, and just wants some tips on carrying while riding? All the "it's not my thing" posts, pics of machine guns mounted to bikes, and judgement calls aren't adding to the discussion. OH WAIT! This is an internet forum, never mind!

As mentioned on numerous occasions in this thread, the responsible person would ride their bike in areas that keeps them out of harms way and not think that the solution is to take the law into their own hands by carrying a gun.

I would think the better option would be to inform law enforcement and local government agencies that deal with this. Or, maybe get involved and help the homeless. Wait, carrying a gun and riding by them is a much better solution...:confused:

[earlfoss]

As mentioned on numerous occasions in this thread, the responsible person would ride their bike in areas that keeps them out of harms way and not think that the solution is to take the law into their own hands by carrying a gun.

I would think the better option would be to inform law enforcement and local government agencies that deal with this. Or, maybe get involved and help the homeless. Wait, carrying a gun and riding by them is a much better solution...:confused:

How do you know that isn't the OP's only available route to get to whatever areas he likes to ride? We can't assume that riding through that area is his favorite option of many. Living in some areas might require riding through some sketchy places to get to good roads. I can understand considering carrying a weapon in some areas, and I think the OP is most qualified to make that call for himself.

[gdw]

"As mentioned on numerous occasions in this thread, the responsible person would ride their bike in areas that keeps them out of harms way"

Using your logic we all should give up riding on the road because it's very dangerous judging from all the threads on this forum about accidents and run-ins with motor vehicle operators both in urban and rural areas.:banana:

Posts involving firearms will always drift away from the original question.

[93legendti]

How do you know that isn't the OP's only available route to get to whatever areas he likes to ride? We can't assume that riding through that area is his favorite option of many. Living in some areas might require riding through some sketchy places to get to good roads. I can understand considering carrying a weapon in some areas, and I think the OP is most qualified to make that call for himself.

+1

Legally carrying a gun is NOT "taking the law into (your) own hands".

[54ny77]

Last year a guy was killed while riding on the back bay trail in upper Newport Beach harbor (right near the 405 underpass). Happened at night or pre-dawn. I haven't followed up on the story if it was foul play or if he was a junkie and od'd.

I am on on that path often if riding while traveling out there for biz during pre-dawn. It freaked me out for a bit wondering if the guy got jumped by cretins hanging out underneath the freeway. For awhile I took an alternative route from hotel and hopped onto the path at a different spot. The return trip was fine, as it was daylight and plenty of joggers and cyclilsts going thru.

My situational calculus was: I'm on a bike with a stupid bright LED headlight that's visible for hundreds of yards away. Approaching an underpass, I could get jumped in a blink by guys hiding behind the supporting columns. Even if I was carrying something for self-defense, if I'm caught with a wire or rope snare, or cold cocked with a blunt instrument, chances of retaliation are slim at best.

Reminded me of Harlem Hill back in years past when riding at night: ya takes yer chances....or not. Somewhat recently, what's old is new again: some knucklehead attempted to whack a buddy of mine with a 2x4 while riding up Harlem Hill at night doing laps. That was a bad idea...for the miscreant.


How do you know that isn't the OP's only available route to get to whatever areas he likes to ride? We can't assume that riding through that area is his favorite option of many. Living in some areas might require riding through some sketchy places to get to good roads. I can understand considering carrying a weapon in some areas, and I think the OP is most qualified to make that call for himself.

[veggieburger]

+1

Legally carrying a gun is NOT "taking the law into (your) own hands".

True.

Not too long ago I posted a video of a massive man in a pickup truck beating an older fellow in the head with a billy club. This was in peaceful Canada. Had someone not been there with a camera, who knows how far it could have gone. People are astonished at how paranoid cyclists are...I guess it all depends where you live. We regularly ride in the country and have been harassed close to a dozen times by hillbillies in pickups. Things have been thrown at us, guys hit by sideview mirrors, lots of yelling, lots of drunk drivers wanting to fight, etc. I'm not suggesting a pistol is the best answer...but I get it.

[Mzilliox]

Using only this forum as a sample, the statistical likelihood of being seriously injured engaging in our hobby (excluding commuters) is countless magnitudes higher than of being injured by another human in an incident serious enough to require the use of deadly force in self defense, which appears to be microscopically infinitesimal (absent anecdotal accounts of something that happened to someone else.) It really is fascinating.

One of the most sensible comments ive read in here, thanks .:beer:

[earlfoss]

A comment is not sensible just because you agree with it.

One of the great things about this forum to me is that most times the level of examination and reasoned discussion is impressive. Kudos to most of you for adding discussion and differing perspectives to my day.

[gdw]

Actually most of the posts have been sensible. Quite a few of the members who responded suggested alternatives such as riding in safer areas or carrying nonlethal deterrents like pepper spray while others have provided valuable information on the consequences involved with the actual use of firearm. The original poster or other members who might be considering carrying a weapon can learn something from those contributions.

[Seramount]

have ridden over 90K miles on bikes...

cannot recall a single instance when having a firearm would have been a good thing.

[SoCalSteve]

have ridden over 90K miles on bikes...

cannot recall a single instance when having a firearm would have been a good thing.

I'm not quite at 90k miles...not sure how many, maybe 40-50k, but I feel the exact same way. Never once.

[ripvanrando]

Having a CCW and having been assaulted by knife and by motor vehicle multiple times while riding, I do not carry while riding for many reasons.

I would recommend OP look into bear spray.

[Saxon]

A little backstory might be helpful here...
I've been riding with the OP on the ARBT since the early 80's and it's always been an amazing place to bike. It's probably the reason we're both so into cycling. The homeless have been on the trail for a number of years and it's been a kind of "live and let live" arrangement, but in the last few months some homeless have been attacking cyclists on the trail. One person was sent to the hospital after he was assaulted with a rock and had his lung punctured. Pit Bulls are also another new problem. The homeless like to keep pet Pit Bulls and they are attacking people on the trail. I personally know a rider that went to the hospital when he was attacked by two Pit Bulls. Needed stitches on his face and legs. Another incident a few months ago involved two escaped Pit Bulls from a local house that attacked a number of people on the trail. The dogs were beaten to death by people with sticks and bicycles as they attacked other folks. Feral Pit Bulls are now being seen on the trail hunting with their pups in tow. I'm only on the trail about once a week now, and the only incident I've had with the homeless is when one jumped out of the bushes in front of my bike with wild eyes screaming at the top of his lungs, "WHERE'S THE AMMO! WHERE'S THE AMMO!". Scared me, but I just rode on.
So, you can see why EPOJOE is "going there" thinking about carrying a gun.
I personally think this is a problem that needs to be addressed quickly by city and county government. If the trail isn't safe, they need to step in and take action. It's not up to trail users to start carrying guns and turn the trail into the "wild west".

[Louis]

I personally think this is a problem that needs to be addressed quickly by city and county government. If the trail isn't safe, they need to step in and take action. It's not up to trail users to start carrying guns and turn the trail into the "wild west".

Thanks for the details.

How about recruiting local cycling organizations and motivate them to lean on local govt / law enforcement to better address the issue?

That seems to me to be more likely to result in positive outcomes for cyclists than carrying a gun.

[Climb01742]

A little backstory might be helpful here...
I've been riding with the OP on the ARBT since the early 80's and it's always been an amazing place to bike. It's probably the reason we're both so into cycling. The homeless have been on the trail for a number of years and it's been a kind of "live and let live" arrangement, but in the last few months some homeless have been attacking cyclists on the trail. One person was sent to the hospital after he was assaulted with a rock and had his lung punctured. Pit Bulls are also another new problem. The homeless like to keep pet Pit Bulls and they are attacking people on the trail. I personally know a rider that went to the hospital when he was attacked by two Pit Bulls. Needed stitches on his face and legs. Another incident a few months ago involved two escaped Pit Bulls from a local house that attacked a number of people on the trail. The dogs were beaten to death by people with sticks and bicycles as they attacked other folks. Feral Pit Bulls are now being seen on the trail hunting with their pups in tow. I'm only on the trail about once a week now, and the only incident I've had with the homeless is when one jumped out of the bushes in front of my bike with wild eyes screaming at the top of his lungs, "WHERE'S THE AMMO! WHERE'S THE AMMO!". Scared me, but I just rode on.
So, you can see why EPOJOE is "going there" thinking about carrying a gun.
I personally think this is a problem that needs to be addressed quickly by city and county government. If the trail isn't safe, they need to step in and take action. It's not up to trail users to start carrying guns and turn the trail into the "wild west".

I also thank you for the details and background. That's an awful situation. It sounds as though you're being failed massively by local authorities. No one would want to, nor should anyone have to, deal with that. I know it's easy to say from 3000 miles away but it feels like the two best solutions are: a) avoid the area and b) press officials to take action. Bringing a gun into that volatile mix seems like tempting too many bad, unintended outcomes.

All that aside, I'm genuinely sorry you and the OP (and other local riders) have to face such a situation.

[Skenry]

Curious where you live and ride your bicycle that you feel the need to carry a handgun with you on 75% of your rides.

Do you truly feel unsafe for your personal safety when you leave your home?

Never needed it, not even close. It's the Boy scout motto though.

I'm in Dayton, Ohio, the worst hit/most overdoses heroin effected region in the States. Also home to 300+ miles of off street paved trails, perfect spots for every junky and thug to hang out with easy access to people and getaways. For much of those trails, I just prefer to stay on the road.

I've been a firemen for 20+ years, been around a lot of cops in that time, never had one recommend not carrying. Not one. Ever. It's about getting home to your family.

[Bruce K]

Agreed that the situation stinks. A strong push by cyclists and cycling organizations would be a good start.

The skeptic in me thinks it will take a serious incident with a mom and her kiddo, a female jogger, or a celebrity before the beaureucrats will act.

It seems to me that carrying a lethal weapon into that situation almost shows premeditation (lawyers help me out) and would lead to some of the situations Parrish and I discussed earlier.

I would find a new route for the short term and work on solutions for the long term.

Good luck,

BK

[ntb1001]

I can"t even digest all of the comments so far, but still feel that there is absolutely no reason to carry a gun while riding.

Insane




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[cadence90]

I personally think this is a problem that needs to be addressed quickly by city and county government. If the trail isn't safe, they need to step in and take action. It's not up to trail users to start carrying guns and turn the trail into the "wild west".
I completely agree with this.

I just read a few Sacramento Bee, etc. articles regarding this story. It does appear to be a horrible situation, with some people not only attacking cyclists and joggers, but also attacking other homeless people as well. Vigilante "justice" is hardly the answer, and could very easily only escalate and intensify the situation, for the worse.

The situation as it stands does seem incredibly volatile. Even if the "clean-up proposal" is approved by the Supervisors on August 23 who knows how long it will be before positive changes occur. While the articles make it clear that this is a route used by lots of commuters, I hope that other nearby, but safer, alternate routes exist.

Given the stressors that abound in our daily life, I cannot imagine carrying a gun while riding. The act itself would be completely antithetical to the reasons I ride in the first place. Even if permitted, etc., to then carry a gun into such a known and potentially hostile environment seems like asking for trouble as much as anything else.

[Dead Man]

Why don't we ever do abortion on PL?

Feels like we need to do a monthly abortion thread too.

[54ny77]

This thread had me thinking about all the times I've been "assaulted" in one way or the other while on a bike. One of the funnier moments was having a book (a bible) hurled at me. I can't recall what I did at the time, it was ages ago. But if that happened today, I'd probably laugh. ;)

[fiamme red]

I was once assaulted while riding past the projects in Brooklyn. Someone ran out from between two parked cars and punched me in the face. My glasses went flying and I crashed into the back of a double-parked van, destroying the frame and fork. No weapon could have prevented that attack.

I do carry two locks when I ride in the city, and one of them is a U-lock that could cause considerable harm if I hit someone with it (I hope I never have to).

[parris]

Bruce brought up a very very good point about things not changing for the better unless a soccer mom or other mainstream "nice" class of person is assaulted.

Many bureaucracies are so unable to effectively get anything accomplished unless there's a big issue to spur action it's not funny. It almost doesn't matter what the issue is either. We can all look at our local areas for multiple examples.

My "favorite" is there's a bridge over a decent size river that I drive to get to work. There was a major redesign/rebuild of that corridor including extensive lighting as well as access for ped/cycling traffic. The lights on the bridge right over the river where it's darkest were left off for close to 4 years due to the two towns on either side of the bridge fighting over who would owe for the use of the lighting. The 2 town's involved aren't big metro areas. Multiply the size multiply the inaction. Just an opinion.

[93legendti]

...It seems to me that carrying a lethal weapon into that situation almost shows premeditation (lawyers help me out)...

BK
A person legally carrying a gun?
No.

[Bruce K]

Don't start.....:no:

This one has stayed very civil and objective, let's keep it that way.

BK

[Bruce K]

Adam -

Please clarify for ne.

If the OP knows he is going to put himself in harm's way and arms himself with a deadly weapon with the intent to use deadly force at the first sign of the trouble he is expecting, how is that not premeditated?

BK

[xnetter]

As another Canadian, this is the first time I have ever even considered the notion of carrying a gun on a bike ride. I did carry bear spray a couple of times when I was mountain biking in Alberta and BC tho ..

[93legendti]

Adam -

Please clarify for ne.

If the OP knows he is going to put himself in harm's way and arms himself with a deadly weapon with the intent to use deadly force at the first sign of the trouble he is expecting, how is that not premeditated?

BK

That's a bit different than the original question as I understood it...


Just wondering, for you folks that ride armed, what do you carry and how do you conceal it wearing a skin tight bike kit? We've been having some issues here with the homeless along the American River Trail attacking cyclists, so I was considering getting a CCW. Can't really imagine how I'd conceal a weapon wearing a kit, unless it was a micro-gun in a micro caliber, that might fit in a jersey pocket.


Seems to me his intent is to defend himself if necessary.

Even still, if and when deadly force is used, the question is - was it legally justified?

If I carried legally, but only did so when I went to a vacant house of mine in a bad neighborhood of Detroit, it's not pre meditated if a deadly force incident arises if I had a justifiable reason to defend myself. I can't shoot someone just because I am in Detroit, but if my safety is threatened I can use appropriate force.


Not to pose a law school exam question at you, but let's say the OP was an ex Navy Seal/ Green Beret who is a Black Belt in Karate and a Krav Maga champion and he rides in the area prepared to defend himself and does so and his attacker, while met with appropriate force, dies/suffers serious injury from the OP's hands/feet - is his presence there premeditated because of his lethal hands/feet?


I think not.

Again, if you have a CPL and are carrying in a permitted area, using deadly force isn't premeditated if the use of force was justified.

Now, if the CPL rider admitted to the police that he rode with his weapon only that one time with the intent to teach the homelsss a lesson before they ever attacked again and shot them all without a threat of physical harm to himself, he would have big problems.

[ANAO]

When I visited Israel in May, we did some rides along the West Bank border, where if you cross over, it's quite literally a life or death situation. All of my family members who live in Israel are armed 100% of the time (my brother has his service piece which is quite a hefty rifle, but is required to live with it at all times, while my cousins all carry some sort of pistol on their butt) which had me wondering what I would do if I moved there.

So I asked the bloke I was riding with. I asked what would happen if we took a left and crossed the border (we were riding West from Jerusalem along the southern border towards Tel Aviv) instead of continuing on our way. He said he had a friend who did that and crossed into the Arab-controlled land. That rider had welded for himself a small holster behind the headtube/downtube/top tube junction and kept his 9mm there.

Carrying a weapon and being prepared in that area is not a joke. In NJ, I am not allowed to travel with my gun and and my rounds in the same portion of the car (ammo always goes in the trunk) and I can only travel with it to/from a range. The laws here are just stupid.

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[ANAO]

Adam -

Please clarify for ne.

If the OP knows he is going to put himself in harm's way and arms himself with a deadly weapon with the intent to use deadly force at the first sign of the trouble he is expecting, how is that not premeditated?

BKYou pose an example where the OP is hunting homeless. Motif is completely wrong in your example.

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[Nooch]

Now, if the CPL rider admitted to the police that he rode with his weapon only that one time with the intent to teach the homelsss a lesson before they ever attacked again and shot them all without a threat of physical harm to himself, he would have big problems.

http://www.asset1.net/tv/pictures/movie/death-wish-1974/Death-Wish-LB-1.jpg

[mkbk]

As a shooting enthusiast, who supports every citizen's right to carry it is my opinion that you should not ride a trail or in a neighborhood where you are at risk of criminal assault. No, sorry, it is our choice to ride bikes (our toys). We can choose where we play with our toys. Carrying is not the correct approach to this type of cycling risk in my opinion.

That said in 33+ years of serious road cycling, commuting, racing and touring I have always felt at risk from motor vehicles on any road and in any country I have ever ridden in. All we can do is make choices which help us to manage the risk.

I do not have the mindset to carry. I will admit that. I also admit to wanting to put many large caliber rounds into many different vehicles on many occasions over my years of cycling.

[joosttx]

Cycling is a hobby. Its not a pair of Air Jordans.

I have to give a head shake at this idea in theory that one needs to protect themselves with a weapon made to kill others so that person can ride a bicycle as a hobby. How childish and selfish can one be.

It not like you are protecting your children, your spouse, your means to support, your value system. You are protecting your hobby and a silly hobby at that.

If its a homeless problem why does not the OP set aside his hobby time and volunteer to help fix the homeless problem. Shooting a homeless person because one attacked you is not going to fix anything.

[veggieburger]

Cycling is a hobby. Its not a pair of Air Jordans.

I have to give a head shake at this idea in theory that one needs to protect themselves with a weapon made to kill others so that person can ride a bicycle as a hobby. How childish and selfish can one be.

It not like you are protecting your children, your spouse, your means to support, your value system. You are protecting your hobby and a silly hobby at that.

If its a homeless problem why does not the OP set aside his hobby time and volunteer to help fix the homeless problem. Shooting a homeless person because one attacked you is not going to fix anything.

Actually, you are protecting yourself, not your hobby. And if you have your family with you, or happen to be pulling a chariot, perhaps your family's life is in peril.

Replace "if it's a homeless problem does..." with "if it's a car problem.." or a road rage problem, or a bear problem, or not enough shoulder on the side of the road..etc. If I stopped riding every time there was conflict or some threat to safety, I would have stopped riding long ago.

[daker13]

I'm a little curious why the people from this area would call the attackers 'homeless,' as opposed to just ordinary criminals. How would you know? Some kind of camp right there or something?

Before packing heat, maybe try giving your local legislator a call. State senators and city councilmen and such constantly get calls from constituents about broken street lamps and such. Sometimes these calls go nowhere, often they don't. Calls to the cops can also be productive. If you pay taxes, you deserve better than a Death Race 2000 muni trail. If you get a few friends to call as well you can get results.

[Tony T]

Just wondering, for you folks that ride armed, what do you carry and how do you conceal it wearing a skin tight bike kit? We've been having some issues here with the homeless along the American River Trail attacking cyclists, so I was considering getting a CCW. Can't really imagine how I'd conceal a weapon wearing a kit, unless it was a micro-gun in a micro caliber, that might fit in a jersey pocket.

Why are you concerned about concealing the weapon?

[earlfoss]

Let your attackers know that you have called your local legislator and that they're in big trouble right before they beat you up!

[seanile]

Why are you concerned about concealing the weapon?

in general, concealed is the preferred method if carrying because if you aren't concealing it you risk becoming a target for the purposes of taking it from you.

[BlueDevil63]

Why are you concerned about concealing the weapon?

Open carry is not legal in California. The only legal way to carry a gun in California is to have a CCW and carry it concealed if I am not mistaken.

[parris]

It's the same in NYS. If a weapon is displayed that carries charges and such.

As a practical matter displaying a weapon tends to draw all kinds of unwanted attention from any number of people. When I carry off duty I'm very careful in my wardrobe choices so that not only will the firearm not be seen but not print through the covering garment(s).

[Bruce K]

In MA the charge for displaying a firearm (including imprinting) is "brandishing" and, if convicted, you lose your right to own.

BK

[redir]

If I'm a criminal hell bent on robbing you or worse, killing you, then you carrying a firearm weapon is of no consequence. I have the advantage not only in surprise but in being first in the initial attack. So unless you plan on riding locked and loaded with your finger near the trigger it's pretty much worthless. In fact it's pretty well known that an attacker with a knife can be at your neck faster then you can draw a weapon and that includes very well trained people. Then the attacker kills you and is now on the loose with a gun.

So you can argue that it at least does give you some chance and that very well may be true just so long as you train weekly for it but considering the odds of it turning out better for anyone in that situation it's better to just use your brain as a weapon and avoid conflict areas.

[seanile]

In MA the charge for displaying a firearm (including imprinting) is "brandishing" and, if convicted, you lose your right to own.

BK

brandishing is not a crime in MA, nor is it referenced in any law that i've been able to find. i'm pretty sure the same is true for printing.
but you can be charged with battery if you draw a weapon at someone and your life is not in imminent danger.
MA also has no laws for or against open-carry, which means you can open carry, however, your local LEO license-issuer can very well take your license away on "suitability" grounds, i.e. MA residents are not used to open-carrying people and therefore a scene/disturbance can result..and that being your fault is no good for you.

edit: found this in a northeastshooters thre (http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/32801-legal-ccw-question-re-brandishing-etc/page2)ad..

Report of “Gun” Alone Not Sufficient Justifying Seizure

In Commonwealth v. Couture, 407 Mass. 178 (1990), the SJC held that the fact an individual is carrying a handgun, in and of itself, does not furnish probable cause to believe that the individual is illegally carrying that gun, nor even give reasonable suspicion justifying a Terry stop.The reasoning behind this decision is that just because someone has possession of a firearm, it does not also mean that they are committing a crime. Therefore, if police desire to conduct a seizure of an individual possessing a firearm in public, they must have either:

1) a reasonable suspicion that he or she is violating the law, or

2) a reasonable belief that the subject is armed or otherwise dangerous

NOTE ON THE INVESTIGATION: However, this will not preclude a police officer from conducting a lawful investigation. He or she can simply walk over to the subject and engage him or her in conversation relative to possessing the firearm. In fact, in Commonwealth v. Johnson, 36 Mass. App. Ct. 336 (1994), the court stated that “the report from a known citizen that a gun is being carried in public warrants investigation by the police.” If the person at that point gives any indication that he or she is not licensed or that the officers safety is an issue, then a thorough patfrisk may be undertaken under the doctrine discussed in Commonwealth v. Fraser, 410 Mass. 541 (1991), which allows police to conduct non-seizure field interrogations. In other words, where police are in the immediate proximity of a person reasonably believed to be armed and dangerous, that person may be frisked for weapons.

Simply having the gun observed by another is not a crime. There is no such crime of "Brandishing".

[Bruce K]

Not what has been presented in safety classes but good to know.

I am guessing that the level of response from LE might not be quite as calm as was posted. In fact, I know an NRA instructor who was surrounded by 4 cruisers in a Dunkin' Donuts parking lot because someone reported seeing his sidearm.

Pardon me if I don't try it out.:rolleyes:

BK

[93legendti]

If someone happens to see your gun, it does not mean the gun owner is brandishing...

These are examples of brandishing:

A MSU football player was driving down the highway and didn't like another driver's actions. The football player raised his gun and honked the horn so the other driver could see it.

An acquaintance's husband went to jail for embezzling union funds. While he was was in jail, 2 unions guys showed up at her door and demanded to know where the embezzled funds were. When she stated that she didn't know, one of the union guys drew his coat back so the pistol on his hip was plainly visible and held his coat back so the pistol was visible for an extended amount of time. He then said "we will be back" and left.

These are examples of NOT brandishing:

While concealed carrying, you bend down to pick something up and your shirt rides up and a person next to you sees your gun.


On the way to a gun range with your trunk open, you transfer your pistol from your holster on your hip to your range bag. Your neighbor sees you do this and sees the pistol.


If I go to DD and someone states they saw my pistol briefly when my shirt rode up and 4 patrol cars responded I would say something doesn't add up...especially in an open carry state.

http://www.usacarry.com/brandishing-firearm/

Florida has addressed this:


''Recently, the Florida Legislature amended Florida Statute § 790.053 related to the open carrying of a weapon in favor of FL Concealed Carry Weapons License holders. The law change prevents prosecutions of those with a valid concealed weapons license who briefly, openly, and inadvertently display a concealed weapon, as long as it is done in a non-angry or non-threatening manner. Of course, this is subjective and open to interpretation and the court cases will follow. Here is the law change which is bolded:

Section 1. Subsection (1) of section 790.053, Florida Statuetes, is amended to read:
790.053 Open carrying of weapons.— (1) Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device. It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.''

[Macadamia]

Well I don't personally have an opinion on you carrying or how to carry, but I noticed this a while back:
http://i.imgur.com/bSfKBU2.jpg
Our former secretary of state riding with bodyguards, 2 of them have fannypacks, I'm not sure what the blue jacket guy is rocking.

[93legendti]

With all due respect to this Forum, the OP might be better served by a concealed carry forum. I am sure the issue will have been broached there a few times.

[seanile]

With all due respect to this Forum, the OP might be better served by a concealed carry forum. I am sure the issue will have been broached there a few times.

Fair point..OP, ill suggest theliberalgunclub.com. Very welcoming an considerate crew there, and nontraditional in the stereotypical gun owner sense.

[dpk501]

Your life is not worth riding through these areas.

This is a very enlightening conversations about guns for someone who grew up in Canada.

I think if you're going to get assaulted it most likely be by surprise. A collapsable sentry baton may be useful against charging dogs.

Living in Portland I've encountered a couple unsavory situations to make me scared. Just turn and ride fast. For the aggressive addict encounters, I also fill a pill bottle with tylenol in a prescription bottle and will toss it at them and ride away on my bike. Pepper spray also carried.

But I've just learned to avoid these places in the meantime. My life is not worth endangering. You just have to be smart. I've been accosted in front of my upper middle class condo; same at the grocery. I feel bad for these people a lot.

[Bruce K]

MA is not an open carry state - though there is some debate within firearm ownership circles as what the law actually says.

Nobody tests the point as MA has some of the strictest laws and a very anti-gun AG.

BK

[djdj]

We don't need no stinkin' guns, we have legs!

[OtayBW]

In fact, I know an NRA instructor who was surrounded by 4 cruisers in a Dunkin' Donuts parking lot because someone reported seeing his sidearm.They might have just been there on break!!...;)

[ripvanrando]

I'm fairly proficient with a handgun standing on my feet. I doubt I could draw let alone hit an object when riding a bike. I just think trying it is a very bad idea as many have stated.

Pepper spray can be attached to your stem or down tube and can be drawn quickly. HALT is not all that effective. I understand from a fellow rider who was attacked by three individuals that bear spray works well. YMMV.

[Tony T]

I've heard that Fox Labs (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Fox+Labs+Pepper+Spray&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3AFox+Labs+Pepper+Spray) makes an effective pepper spray. (They also sell a bike mount)

[veggieburger]

Another option...and you can make it in your garage!
https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6065/6115488091_ba13d27646_b.jpg

[dpk501]

Another option...and you can make it in your garage!
https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6065/6115488091_ba13d27646_b.jpg


Is 'The Legend of Zelda' music included?

[Gurpil23]

.

[oldpotatoe]

I'm fairly proficient with a handgun standing on my feet. I doubt I could draw let alone hit an object when riding a bike. I just think trying it is a very bad idea as many have stated.

YMMV.

My son and I, while shooting the other day..his Glock, my S&W.38 model 642..throw in a Taurus 22mag revolver..

Training scenario, just seeing-->"We come upon an intruder, and we aren't pointing at anything..a turn around and shoot gig from about 10 feet..person sided target"..amazingly poor results.

Onna bike or running, anything but stand and aim? I agree, ride somewhere else.

[Gsinill]

My son and I, while shooting the other day..his Glock, my S&W.38 model 642..throw in a Taurus 22mag revolver..

Training scenario, just seeing-->"We come upon an intruder, and we aren't pointing at anything..a turn around and shoot gig from about 10 feet..person sided target"..amazingly poor results.

Onna bike or running, anything but stand and aim? I agree, ride somewhere else.

Former colleague of mine, born and raised in Johannesburg, once took a de-escalation class to prepare for carjackings and other common assaults during that time in SA.

Introduction to the class was a staged situation, victim sits in the car, (unloaded) gun in the glovebox.
Then a bunch of "carjackers" attack, screaming and yelling armed with bats, (unloaded) guns and rifles.
According to him not a single person was able to get the gun out of the glovebox on time to defend themselves.
Adrenalin and stress levels...

He said it was funny to watch all the tough guys fail miserably, even though they were prepared for a staged situation with no loaded guns and no real risk.

Thus the focus on de-escalation.

[Fatty]

I'm lucky enough to live where I can ride without fear of assault. If I did feel the need to pack a heater then a ladies concealed carry purse with the shoulder strap removed would probably be mounted to the front of my handle bars.
But my opinion is your better off with a couple boxing lessons and maybe the right set of gloves to go along with some punching skills.
http://static.jensonusa.com/images/Color-Image/Zoom/9/G000041H.jpg

[shamsixnine]

Well I don't personally have an opinion on you carrying or how to carry, but I noticed this a while back:
http://i.imgur.com/bSfKBU2.jpg
Our former secretary of state riding with bodyguards, 2 of them have fannypacks, I'm not sure what the blue jacket guy is rocking.

Like most here, I've had some crazy instances riding and training over the years, and never needed a firearm. However, I go back to the OP. He was not asking IF HE SHOULD CARRY-He was asking HOW TO CARRY. And i am not passing judgement on his decision. Has has rights and reasons to carry. And this photo represents one of the main reason why we can and should carry if we want to. People in power have access to firearms and protection. Yet these same people don't want the populace the ability to carry. Sorry-not in this country. Never going to happen.

[Bruce K]

I remember when Kerry was running for president. His detail all got fitted for bikes at (I think) Wheelworks. Not sure if the ability to carry their Glocks was part of the fit process.

When he "rode" the PMC, his detail rode in shifts to be able to keep up with him.

BK

[drewellison]

This thread had me thinking about all the times I've been "assaulted" in one way or the other while on a bike. One of the funnier moments was having a book (a bible) hurled at me. I can't recall what I did at the time, it was ages ago. But if that happened today, I'd probably laugh. ;)

This made me smile. As a Gideon, I hand out little Bibles periodically. (We call them Testaments - NT, Psalms, Proverbs.)

Although I don't throw them at people (handing them is the preferred method), some people do think I'm assaulting them!

Drew

[drewellison]

Not passing judgment on the wisdom of concealed carry on a bike, I just noticed these bib shorts with rear pockets from one of our sponsors.

https://www.eleven.cc/shop/packless-merino-bibs/

Could this be an effective way for CC?

[chiasticon]

I live on a main road with four lanes and zero shoulder. I have to traverse it every time I want to ride. I have every right to ride on that road. but I've had enough close calls with cars on it that I have no desire to ride it any more. instead, I ride on the sidewalk up a few houses to a side street and weave through the neighborhood to get to where I'm going. it may take longer, but it's much safer.

the point is: when you ride, occasionally you encounter roads that you'd love to ride - whether because they're great fun or because they're the most convenient - but that you steer clear of, simply because it's just not worth it. it seems to me that this is one of those cases.

hopefully the homeless/criminal element on this trail gets cleaned up. maybe make sure your city and law enforcement are aware of it. until it does though, ride somewhere else.

[93legendti]

I don't recommend or discourage concealed carry while riding - it's a very serious decision and the answer will differ for different people. If you're the type who yells at bad drivers and chases after them, I'd leave the heat at home.

If I was to consider carrying, I would think about a lightweight .22 wmr revolver. Loud bang, very accurate, very little recoil, good defensive capabilities.


I still don't know if it's a good idea.

[sg8357]

Rando bag on rack with stiffeners.
Milt Sparks I-Bak holster, mounted to rear stiffener.

http://www.miltsparks.com/products-i-bak.php

'nother idea, Topeak makes a fanny pack/handlebar bag.

https://www.topeak.com/global/en/products/handlebar-bags/128-compact-handlebar-bag

For you weight weenies, S&W 340PD, 334.5 grams.
Alloy frame, ti cylinder.
https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/model-340-pd

[jwd]

Holy s@#$