OT: Oops we did it again (USN not Britney Spears)

[Bruce K]

The guided Middle cruiser USS John Mcain collided with a merchant ship off the coast of Singapore.

This is twice in 2 months.

What is up with this?

BK

[William]

Someone testing some jamming equipment???:eek:






William

[chuckroast]

Maybe it was a Maverick ship....

[dustyrider]

Someone testing some jamming equipment???:eek:






William

Lonestar!!! Haha. (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FcArnepkhv0)

[Llewellyn]

It's becoming a bit of a habit isn't it.

[alancw3]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40995829

[2metalhips]

There was a guest on NPR who said there has actually been 4 incidents recently. I assume the other 2 were "minor", if there is such a thing.

[oldpotatoe]

There was a guest on NPR who said there has actually been 4 incidents recently. I assume the other 2 were "minor", if there is such a thing.

A run aground in Jan, a collision with a fishing boat, Fitzgerald and now McCain..poor seamanship, poor navigation skills, over reliance on technology at expense of basic seamanship(?)...less operating days for sure, crews getting rusty, complacent ?

[parris]

OP just a question about the training and such. Could some "expert" or "experts" in an office have come up revised training guidelines/P&P's in order to cut costs due to a reliance on tech?

[oldpotatoe]

OP just a question about the training and such. Could some "expert" or "experts" in an office have come up revised training guidelines/P&P's in order to cut costs due to a reliance on tech?

Don't know but I think the old 'red right returning' and 'even red nuns have odd black cans' type stuff isn't emphasized I think.

[PaulE]

I'm wondering if the Russians or Chinese have some new undetectable jamming equipment, or if the Navy changed/relaxed any policies about personal cell phones or internet access for personnel working on the bridge.

[jimcav]

Don't know but I think the old 'red right returning' and 'even red nuns have odd black cans' type stuff isn't emphasized I think.

maybe it has changed, probably no more "steer by seaman's eye" anyway

[Jaybee]

I'm wondering if the Russians or Chinese have some new undetectable jamming equipment, or if the Navy changed/relaxed any policies about personal cell phones or internet access for personnel working on the bridge.

Suppose that's possible, but there are "no technology required" failsafes that any USN navigator/watch should be ready and able to use, especially in one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world. Things like maps/compasses/watchmen posted fore/aft, etc.

[sc53]

A run aground in Jan, a collision with a fishing boat, Fitzgerald and now McCain..poor seamanship, poor navigation skills, over reliance on technology at expense of basic seamanship(?)...less operating days for sure, crews getting rusty, complacent ?

My brother, retired Marine, says same thing as you Ole P. I called him with a *** is going on with the US Navy? Whole 7th Fleet needs refresher course in Basic Seamanship. Brother wondered if they no longer had guys physically standing watch with naked eye at all times.

[seanile]

Maybe it was a Maverick ship....

i just got this:hello:

[CaptStash]

The latest reports indicate that the McCain suffered a steering casualty which likely caused the collision. With that said, there is still no excuse. A vessel has multiple steering systems so unless the casualty was catastrophic (which it wasn't as the ship was able to regain steering shortly after - or maybe before - the collision), personnel should have been able to switch over quickly. The investigation should be interesting. This accident appears to have little in common with the issues surrounding the Fitzgerald and the ACX Crystal.

As to all the talk on the reliance on technology, I don't think that that is the problem. I think the core issue is a lack of functional seamanship from the NAVY's officers, and an inability to operate successfully effectively and safely in peacetime conditions based on the way the rest of he world operates at sea.

There has been a lot of talk about how the NAVY does not have a "Deck Officer" track. Basically, the guys on the bridge in U.S. NAVY ships have barely a shadow of the training and experience that the average Third Mate on a Liberian flagged cargo ship has. And it is even worse in a NAVY engine room.

CaptStash....

[bicycletricycle]

The latest reports indicate that the McCain suffered a steering casualty which likely caused the collision. With that said, there is still no excuse. A vessel has multiple steering systems so unless the casualty was catastrophic (which it wasn't as the ship was able to regain steering shortly after - or maybe before - the collision), personnel should have been able to switch over quickly. The investigation should be interesting. This accident appears to have little in common with the issues surrounding the Fitzgerald and the ACX Crystal.

As to all the talk on the reliance on technology, I don't think that that is the problem. I think the core issue is a lack of functional seamanship from the NAVY's officers, and an inability to operate successfully effectively and safely in peacetime conditions based on the way the rest of he world operates at sea.

There has been a lot of talk about how the NAVY does not have a "Deck Officer" track. Basically, the guys on the bridge in U.S. NAVY ships have barely a shadow of the training and experience that the average Third Mate on a Liberian flagged cargo ship has. And it is even worse in a NAVY engine room.

CaptStash....

I had a friend who was an officer in the CBs. He was the boss of a whole bunch of people who knew 10 times more about what they were doing than him. All they did was drive tractors around and build stuff so it didn't seem like that big of a problem, seems like a bad situatuation when mapped onto a big ship though.

[oldpotatoe]

The latest reports indicate that the McCain suffered a steering casualty which likely caused the collision. With that said, there is still no excuse. A vessel has multiple steering systems so unless the casualty was catastrophic (which it wasn't as the ship was able to regain steering shortly after - or maybe before - the collision), personnel should have been able to switch over quickly. The investigation should be interesting. This accident appears to have little in common with the issues surrounding the Fitzgerald and the ACX Crystal.

As to all the talk on the reliance on technology, I don't think that that is the problem. I think the core issue is a lack of functional seamanship from the NAVY's officers, and an inability to operate successfully effectively and safely in peacetime conditions based on the way the rest of he world operates at sea.

There has been a lot of talk about how the NAVY does not have a "Deck Officer" track. Basically, the guys on the bridge in U.S. NAVY ships have barely a shadow of the training and experience that the average Third Mate on a Liberian flagged cargo ship has. And it is even worse in a NAVY engine room.

CaptStash....

Com7thFleet relieved...I agree...since USN line officers have to be versed in all departments, often just barely adequate in them. Tours in Ops, weapons, navigation, engineering, and all must be OOD qualed. Not sure who does the training. But aren't USN engineering officers EDO(Engineering Duty Officers)...

But no training in how to do ground job, in aviation. You learn 'under fire', OJT. Nothing really formal. Think that applies to the USN black shoes.

[dddd]

I'm thinking back to when a certain Chinese embassy got a bomb dropped on it "by accident"...

[BdaGhisallo]

http://inmilitary.com/real-reason-us-navy-keeps-hitting-merchant-vessels/

Interesting interview on the issues the Navy is facing.

[weisan]

http://inmilitary.com/real-reason-us-navy-keeps-hitting-merchant-vessels/

Interesting interview on the issues the Navy is facing.
.
while it might be convenient or popular to string some kind of conspiracy theory, the mistakes made were all simple things: basic ship handling, navigation and seamanship stuff. Destroyers do not get run down by merchants; they are faster and much more maneuverable. No, they were not hacked; they were not run down on purpose. They just were asleep at the wheel.

Navy has a very difficult issue transforming. Since it is capital-heavy, it needs to do more to bring down shipbuilding costs, while at the same time work assiduously to transform our personnel into distributed nodes with authority, that is transforming the personnel force. That is a tall order and it takes people not only with leadership skills but also imagination and vision, which is a commodity in short supply.

[CaptStash]

Meh. The guy interviewed seemed to lay too much of the failures on gender equality raining without simply stating that the Navy doesn't straight out train for or value seamanship.

CaptStash....

[BdaGhisallo]

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/11/uss-mccain-collision-ultimately-caused-by-ui-confusion/

Interesting findings if this is indeed the scenario at play.

[berserk87]

That doesn't explain all of the other protocols that were not employed prior to the collisions.

[oldpotatoe]

Meh. The guy interviewed seemed to lay too much of the failures on gender equality raining without simply stating that the Navy doesn't straight out train for or value seamanship.

CaptStash....

Agree...leadership/ship command in the USN just isn't long term, unlike the merchant services. Ship's officers 'train' in a variety of departments, all are 'OOD' qualified but there's no position of 'professional OOD(Officer Of the Deck)..Even the CO, often arriving as CO, not a term as Executive officer first, has his hands full and altho 'qualified', isn't a experienced ships commanding officer..something the merchant services have in spades..professional ship Masters.

PLUS USN ship tours are relatively short(3 years) and deployments aren't constant..a month or so of 'workups', a 6-7 deployment and then back into port, often for 12 months or so. Once the person has his 'sea duty', often 3 or more years of 'shore duty', not at sea at all.

Merchant ships are 'haze gray and underway' all the time..

BUT, these ships are very maneuverable, have a ton of sensors, the bridge watch and CO just gooned it up.

[sg8357]

Meh. The guy interviewed seemed to lay too much of the failures on gender equality raining without simply stating that the Navy doesn't straight out train for or value seamanship.

CaptStash....


If you haunt the Naval blogs and USNI, there is a constant complaint
about diversity, green, humanitarian aid and other social issues
taking up too much time, crowding out "warrior" and peer warfare issues.

[pbarry]

https://www.npr.org/2019/04/22/715904313/reporter-details-neglect-and-disaster-in-the-u-s-navy

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. In the early morning darkness of June 17, 2017, the Navy destroyer USS Fitzgerald collided with a cargo ship in the South China Sea. The much larger cargo vessel ripped a huge hole in the Fitzgerald, killing seven sailors. Two months later, another destroyer, the USS John S. McCain, collided with another cargo ship leaving 10 more sailors dead.

Our guest, veteran journalist T. Christian Miller, is part of an investigative team at the online news site ProPublica that looked into the crashes and problems with Navy operations that may have contributed to them. The reporters found that ships in the Seventh Fleet were chronically understaffed and that crews were often exhausted, poorly trained, and working with outdated or poorly maintained equipment and software. They also found Navy commanders had flagged the problems for years, but little was done to address them.