So, carbon hoops or no?

[icepick_trotsky]

I've been having an internal debate with myself for a while. Would a non-competitive rider like myself see much of a benefit from carbon rims over nice aluminum wheels? I'm pretty much a club rider and fondo-ist. I have no interest in racing.

My current road wheels are Zondas and handbuilt Record/Open Pro 32x. I kind of have the itch to try carbon, but I'm not sure I have the stomach for tubulars on longer rides. I have never used them. I know carbon clinchers are looked down on by tubular users, and I'm not sure if I'd see much benefit over what I have already.

[Blown Reek]

Just get a set of Shamal Mille wheels. Most carbon wheels are for aesthetics, anyway.

Sure in a controlled environment, the new wide, blunt-nose aero shapes are faster, and a deep aero wheel is going to be faster, but you're not going to get any real world gains from a Bora 35 over a Shamal. Especially if you're club rider or a fondo-ista.

And you'll be able to stop when it gets wet.

[velofinds]

No possible way to scratch this particular itch other than to just give in. If you buy used, worst-case scenario is that you don't see what the fuss is for and then pass them on to the next caregiver for what you paid.

Carbon clinchers are absolutely fine, BTW (I have and like Zipp 202s).

[Mark McM]

I've been having an internal debate with myself for a while. Would a non-competitive rider like myself see much of a benefit from carbon rims over nice aluminum wheels? I'm pretty much a club rider and fondo-ist. I have no interest in racing.

My current road wheels are Zondas and handbuilt Record/Open Pro 32x. I kind of have the itch to try carbon, but I'm not sure I have the stomach for tubulars on longer rides. I have never used them. I know carbon clinchers are looked down on by tubular users, and I'm not sure if I'd see much benefit over what I have already.

Why not the best of both worlds? Several companies make wheels with hybrid carbon/aluminum clincher rims. They provide the aerodynamics of deep carbon rims, with the braking of aluminum rims.

Some companies that make these are FLO cycling, HED, and Swiss Side. Currently, Competitive Cyclist has a screaming hot deal on HED Jet 4+ (https://www.competitivecyclist.com/hed-jet-4-fr-clincher-wheelset?skidn=HED000L-BK-SHI&ti=UExQIENhdDpCaWtlIFdoZWVsczoxOjMyOmNjQ2F0MTAwNDY z) ($950)and HED Jet 6+ (https://www.competitivecyclist.com/hed-jet-6-fr-clincher-wheelset?skidn=HED000M-BK-CAM&ti=UExQIENhdDpCaWtlIFdoZWVsczoxOjMzOmNjQ2F0MTAwNDY z) ($1000) wheels. Use coupon code CC15OFF100 for an additional 15% off.

[Pierre]

I like my $1000 carbon hoops because the bike looks faster. It looks so much better/faster that I'm ok with a) spending more $ on carbon brake pads that wear out much faster and b) worse braking performance in wet conditions. I could try to convince myself that the wheels ARE in fact faster because they are aero but honestly, I'm pretty sure that I would not notice.

However what I DO notice that if I look at my bike and think to myself, damn that thing looks fast, chances are I'm going to feel faster when I'm on it...and I LIKE that. The few times that I've had to put my mavic alu wheels back on I've just shaken my head and tried to ignore them. The bike doesn't look nearly as good.

The biggest advantage has been the wider rim profile. This has allowed me to go to 28C on back and 25C on front and put the pressure right down to 75psi. I'm so much more comfortable on the bike and THAT is real.

The only other consideration to think through is whether you are close to getting another bike and whether that bike will have rim or disc brakes. You don't want to have to go through this argument with yourself twice!

[ntb1001]

I have really good aluminum Campy Eurus 2 way fit tubless wheels, also a set of Zipp 303 Fircrest clinchers.
I've also had Zipp 404 tubulars, as well as as traditional style wheelset..(campy record 10, 32 hole.)
All are very good, but I think I favour the Zipp 303's.



Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

[54ny77]

They're just fun to have. Something different, go for it. Only you can decide.

Perhaps try out a friends' carbon wheels for yourself first, if they'd be okay with that.

Personally, having both, if could only have one vs. the other I'd pick alu. Reason is they're magnitudes cheaper, brake performance is better, and one or both are easily replaceable if they r damaged or something else interesting comes along (e.g. "wider" box section alu rim offerings that came onto the scene several years ago).

To me aero carbon wheels feel quicker when the speeds get up there--descending or going hard on the flats with a few guys (call it 25mph+), or maybe it's just mental.

[uber]

Why not give them a try? I have been riding carbon tubulars exclusively for about 10 years. No big deal. I'm not good enough to realize the performance difference. I just like them. Enve's are bomb proof and I have had good luck so far with Campy. But, carbon wheels can crack. No way around it.

[R3awak3n]

I am going to say no. Carbon wheels are sweet and I did enjoy my Enves and my Reynolds and the later actually had decent braking, however still not as good as alum, not even close. I did like the way my enves rode, they felt fast, really stiff, nice wheel but they are expensive, too expensive (I bought them second hand an delaminated the brake track, no support from enve because second hand).

I do like the look of carbon rims but you now have ceramic aluminum rims from a few people. They look great, break even better so to me I would, and have, gone that route instead and I am very happy.

[54ny77]

p.s. the sound of 'em can be a little annoying (sort of a weird hum), but you get used to it. As can the buffeting when windy (depending on the width of the aero section itself, i.e., 45, 66, and so on). My experience is limited to Mavic (the kind with alu rim and carbon fairing, i forget the model name) and all-carbon Edge wheels.

[Ralph]

Hard to beat Zonds's for the kind of riding you do. Actually don't think you can.

[Mzilliox]

as a guy who just sold 2 sets of Hyperons, id say no. maybe if you are into disc brakes, but not rim.

Now if you have plenty of extra cash around, why not, but if not, they will do nothing but look cool for you.

i recently picked up a a pair of shamals and have broken all my PRs on them. is it the wheels? prob not, but they sure don't slow me down compared to boras and hyperons.

all this said, i did keep my bora 35s... and i do like them a lot.

[PepeM]

I'd say no, unless you really like the look. If aesthetics are not a concern then I wouldn't bother.

My carbon wheels brake just fine fwiw. Can't say I notice any difference compared to my aluminum wheels.

[zap]

Hard to beat Zonds's for the kind of riding you do. Actually don't think you can.

One.

Campagnolo Bora Ones 35.

You can get them at pretty decent prices too.

[redir]

They will be noticeably lighter. It's pretty amazing to hold a 50mm deep carbon wheel in your hand and feel how light such a big object looks. ;)

[Basso69]

Campagnolo Bora 50.
Love them. definitely go faster. And very comfortable.

[weiwentg]

They will be noticeably lighter. It's pretty amazing to hold a 50mm deep carbon wheel in your hand and feel how light such a big object looks. ;)

Yes, absolutely true, and you may also think that you're faster. But you won't actually be that much faster than before.

Heck, when I wasn't even in that good shape, I beat a bunch of guys on carbon bikes and carbon wheels up a climb in St. Paul. On a steel bike, steel fork, alloy wheels.

If you ask me, mid section alloy with relatively fewer spokes should provide a small bump over box section 32h wheels, and that bump may be worth the additional $$. Then again, 2003 Michigan Cat 4 state championship road race, all 5 of us finishers got dusted by a guy on a Colnago Master XL with (IIRC) 32 spoke box sections. I know I was on low spoke alloy wheels, think everyone else was on similar.

That's not to say you shouldn't get them! You'll see a benefit! But it will be a small one, and if you break a rim it's a lot more money to replace.

[Clean39T]

Remember you are also asking a Forum that leans to the traditionalist side pretty heavily...

I'm taking someone's advice here though and trying them (finally) by getting some gently used 40mm tubulars that won't lose me much money if I decide they aren't for me.

And I also bought some HED Jet 6+ from CompCyc stacking some discounts to get them for just over $600 shipped. Just waiting for me Shimano freehub to arrive before I give them a whirl.

In the end, I'm betting I'll have: Jet6+ for longer rides and dry crits, Belgium+ for everyday riding/training and wet weather, and the Tubs for rolling road races and hill-climbs.

[fignon's barber]

I've been having an internal debate with myself for a while. Would a non-competitive rider like myself see much of a benefit from carbon rims over nice aluminum wheels? I'm pretty much a club rider and fondo-ist. I have no interest in racing.


I wouldn't get carbon rims. November Bikes has nice comprehensive summary over on their site, but to paraphrase, they will save you 3 watts over the current best alloy clinchers. You can beat that by using latex tubes.
I still race competitively, and use a couple pairs of shamals (C15 and C17) and a pair of carbon 52mm wheels. I would only use the carbons for races, and would have to study the weather leading up the race for any chance of rain. All this talk of improved braking for carbon rims in rain is BS. They suck. You have no brakes in the rain. You would stop faster dragging your feet. All training, training races, and half my races have all been on the shamals.
Alloy rims look better too. You get more street cred as well. A win is a touch more impressive when gliding on alloy rims.
I would try a pair of those new AForce AL33 rims and some latex tubes. Take the $1K you save and invest it in the stock market. Two years from now, you'll still have a great pair of wheels and enough cash to buy a nice custom frame.:beer:

[sitzmark]

Find a free (or modest $) demo day and try some "carbon hoops" for yourself. Only way to know if right for you.

Will you benefit from carbon hoops? Depends on what benefit means. Carbon isn't magic - different carbon wheelsets will have different physical/ride properties depending on rim construction, spokes, hubs, tires. "Carbon" is too generic a term to cover the MANY difference between carbon wheelsets.

Generically speaking a deep section carbon wheel will have a different feel than a box section alu wheel. Will a deep section carbon wheelset make you measurably faster ... not if the hub bearings have significant drag. Apples to apples important for a quantitative answer.

[m4rk540]

I ride a set of 38mm Kinlins. They feel somewhat sluggish in stop and go riding but they're as fast as any carbon wheel I've ridden for descending. That said there is a significant weight penalty which is offset by piece of mind. I don't have to worry about destroying a $900 rim. I believe I picked up my Kinlins for $40 per rim.

[R3awak3n]

I also did not mention but I think rider size really matters. If you are heavier than 200 lbs I would not recommend carbon, more weight to stop, more heat and also worst braking. They are fun and I do like the sound they make and the enve 45s I had were some of my favorite wheels I am not going to lie and I would buy carbon wheels again in a heart beat, for disc brakes. Rim, I just need as much braking power as I can have, I am a big dude.

As far as weight, yes carbon is lighter but you can easily build a set of alloy clinchers for less than 1500g with the right parts.

[Mzilliox]

I wouldn't get carbon rims. November Bikes has nice comprehensive summary over on their site, but to paraphrase, they will save you 3 watts over the current best alloy clinchers. You can beat that by using latex tubes.
I still race competitively, and use a couple pairs of shamals (C15 and C17) and a pair of carbon 52mm wheels. I would only use the carbons for races, and would have to study the weather leading up the race for any chance of rain. All this talk of improved braking for carbon rims in rain is BS. They suck. You have no brakes in the rain. You would stop faster dragging your feet. All training, training races, and half my races have all been on the shamals.
Alloy rims look better too. You get more street cred as well. A win is a touch more impressive when gliding on alloy rims.
I would try a pair of those new AForce AL33 rims and some latex tubes. Take the $1K you save and invest it in the stock market. Two years from now, you'll still have a great pair of wheels and enough cash to buy a nice custom frame.:beer:

Shamals are damned impressive, and 1400 grams or less. Boras are what 1300? i can spit out 100g right now. so are carbon hoops lighter? enough to matter? i have no doubt that in a crit situation on flat ground with no wind in a pack the deep wheeels would give some advantage, but after riding carbon hoops for a season, for my riding (solo on gravel and crap pavement with rain half a year) they make little no no sense at all, which is why i have gone carbon, and now back to light aluminum, its just so much better to be in a place of simplicity.

i am also very happy with my Pacenti V2 rims, they o not give up much in weight or speed either.

[makoti]

If you have the money, go ahead. I have Pacenti/WI & Enve 3.4 wheels. For flat stuff, the Enves seem faster. For rolling, about the same. For serious mountain descending, I use the Pacenti.
Remember, most of the advantage carbon has is at 20+mph, so figure that into your riding. Plus, you didn't say, but would you be swapping them out with other wheels? Brake pads become an issue. You can get dual compound pads, but I use official Enve pads (because they are under warranty) & swapping them out is a pain.
They make the bike look cool. They make me feel fast sometimes. I'd buy them again.

[Tickdoc]

Love my enve 3.4s w dt Swiss 240s. Fast, light, stunning looking. They stop like $hit, and even worse when it's wet, but I still love em.

If you value stopping distance over looks, then neutrons, shamals give you two more price points and fast wheels.

I think my neutrons are only .02 seconds slower than the enves and I paid 1/10th as much for them.

Shamals are on my short list to try next.

[Bob Ross]

Would a non-competitive rider like myself see much of a benefit from carbon rims over nice aluminum wheels? I'm pretty much a club rider and fondo-ist. I have no interest in racing.

Some data points from the perspective of a guy who's coached a 12-week cooperative group cycling skills class for our bike club for the past 9 or 10 years...iow, our curriculum is geared to the proverbial non-competitive fast club rider/fondo-ist.

Every year we get at least one or two students in the program with some totally badass swanky carbon wheels. Do these folks see any benefit? Well... there's certainly no correlation between Who Has The Carbon Hoops and Who Is The Smoothest, Safest, "Best" Rider In The Paceline. There's also no correlation between Who Has The Carbon Hoops and Who Is The Strongest/Fastest Rider In The Paceline (though admittedly that's kind of antithetical to our purpose, so we tend to view that sort of behavior as a red flag rather than an asset ...unless they're also smooth, safe, & cooperative, in which case, Yay! but again, no correlation).

Y'know what sort of correlation we do see all the time, year after year? There's a very overt direct correlation between Who Has The Carbon Hoops and Who Can't Stop For Schidt In The Rain.

And there's a very overt direct correlation between Who Has The Carbon Hoops and Whose Bike Makes The Most Annoying Sound When Braking (regardless of whether it's raining or not).

Other than that, I got nuthin'.

[Hls2k6]

I've put over 10k miles on carbon clinchers each of the past 3 seasons & I am on pace to do so again this year. I train and race on them in all weather.

While I can't comment on whether they're a good idea for you personally, I'll share two things. The first you could argue is just my opinion, although I'd disagree. The second is objective fact.

First, there is a vast difference between a high-end, wide carbon wheel with a textured brake track (like a current gen Zipp or Enve) and earlier iterations (like the Enve 45, which I raced for a full season). They're light years better in crosswinds and wet-weather braking.

Second, when compared to a box rim & mid-level tire, a set of 50mm wheels (Zipp 404 or Enve 4.5) and low rolling-resistance tires (Turbo Cotton or similar), objectively improves performance at threshold to a degree that rivals the improvement I currently make in an entire season described above training with a great coach.

[Clean39T]

Find a free (or modest $) demo day and try some "carbon hoops" for yourself. Only way to know if right for you.




Great advice. WesternBikeWorks here in Portland rents Carbon race wheels. Many triathlon shops do. Maybe just give that a go and form your own opinions?

[regularguy412]

IMO -- you'll like 'em.

Shop around and catch a good set on sale. Mebbe, say,, last year's model, etc?

NOS don't go 'bad' just sitting on the shelf.

I still ride aluminum hoops once or twice a week on my backup bike. But I ride my carbon clinchers or carbon tubulars the other 3 or 4 days.

The cool part I like about the most recent (within last year or two) improvements in carbon wheel braking is that it's REALLLY good. My carbon tubular Easton EC90SL's (2010 model) that I rode as a daily driver from 2011 through 2015 had decent braking when brand new. Now the braking surface is a bit worn. Still safe to ride, as they're tubulars, but I can tell they don't have quite the stopping power they once had. Was using the suggested SwissStop yellows.

Conversely, my now 2 year old Mercury M5 55mm carbon clinchers brake like aluminum rims, but they are full carbon. They have a basalt-impregnated braking surface and it WORKS! -- even in the wet. I've paired them with SwissStop Black Prince pads and never looked back. They went thru a brief period of minor squealing, but that was easily remedied by just toeing in the pads again.

Look for a good set on sale. My Mercurys 'listed' for about $2,400 but I got them on sale in December 2015 for $809.00 from Competitive Cyclist (no affiliation here).

Mike in AR:beer:

[November Dave]

I wouldn't get carbon rims. November Bikes has nice comprehensive summary over on their site, but to paraphrase, they will save you 3 watts over the current best alloy clinchers. You can beat that by using latex tubes

Thanks for the mention. Just to make it 100% clear, it's not carbon clinchers in general that will gain you 3w over a top alloy rim, it's a rim that's as fast as a 404. 303s tested as equivalent to Al33s, for example.

With profoundly lower cost, generally equal or lower weight, better braking, and no risk of heat related issues, our position on it is clear but anyone may have a different take and that's cool too.

[fa63]

My only justification for getting carbon wheels would be that they look good. And if your bike looks good, you are likely to ride it more. And if you ride more, you get faster.

So carbon wheels can indeed make you faster, maybe in more of a roundabout way :)

[stien]

I am squarely on the aluminum brake track train. I rode my one and only pair of carbon wheels when I started racing and wasn't impressed. (7800 tubular, boy they were light but they went out of true easily). Like many others say, braking isn't there. I'm on Jet 6+ now and they are so so good (latex tubes, GP4KS2 tires).

Honestly I think even if you're just road racing aero wheels don't make a ton of sense unless you plan on being out front most of the time either in a break or attacking. I was sitting front 1/3rd of a very hilly RR Sunday (~100ft/mi) and all I got for my aero gains was having to brake going downhill so I didn't hit people. I definitely love them for crits and TTs. I am thinking about a backup pair of B+ wheels for rain and super hilly stuff.

[Ralph]

It was interesting to see what the Pro's were riding in recent TDF.

[chiasticon]

I wouldn't get carbon rims. November Bikes has nice comprehensive summary over on their site, but to paraphrase, they will save you 3 watts over the current best alloy clinchers. You can beat that by using latex tubes.I like what November does in general with making their test results public and such, but I'm not a fan of this test. for me, a huge thing I notice about carbon wheels is the stiffness/responsiveness. and this is clearly not reflected in their test. this responsiveness is something you notice a lot in a group, when making small accelerations to close gaps. those become much easier with stiffer/deep section hoops. you also notice this stiffness when going uphill. it's really something. and it's why I love carbon hoops for cyclocross; with all the little accelerations out of corners you do, that extra stiffness is noticeable.

for me personally, I've been on the Mavic Cosmic Pro Carbon SL C's (what a ridiculously long name) for about a month now and really like them. I also was a huge fan of the Zipp 202 FC's. both of those wheels basically feel marginally faster in an aero way, but much more stiff, responsive, and lively. and they're both lighter than my old standby/bulletproof build of kings/belgiums (which now live on the winter bike). I've had deeper-section rims as well and while you really notice the aero advantage of them, they also felt like slugs to me, spinning them up from a dead stop or going uphill. the low/mid section stuff just suits me and my local terrain more.

[54ny77]

That is it in a nutshell. Best summary yet. :banana:

Some data points from the perspective of a guy who's coached a 12-week cooperative group cycling skills class for our bike club for the past 9 or 10 years...iow, our curriculum is geared to the proverbial non-competitive fast club rider/fondo-ist.

Every year we get at least one or two students in the program with some totally badass swanky carbon wheels. Do these folks see any benefit? Well... there's certainly no correlation between Who Has The Carbon Hoops and Who Is The Smoothest, Safest, "Best" Rider In The Paceline. There's also no correlation between Who Has The Carbon Hoops and Who Is The Strongest/Fastest Rider In The Paceline (though admittedly that's kind of antithetical to our purpose, so we tend to view that sort of behavior as a red flag rather than an asset ...unless they're also smooth, safe, & cooperative, in which case, Yay! but again, no correlation).

Y'know what sort of correlation we do see all the time, year after year? There's a very overt direct correlation between Who Has The Carbon Hoops and Who Can't Stop For Schidt In The Rain.

And there's a very overt direct correlation between Who Has The Carbon Hoops and Whose Bike Makes The Most Annoying Sound When Braking (regardless of whether it's raining or not).

Other than that, I got nuthin'.

[Clean39T]

our position on it is clear but anyone may have a different take and that's cool too.


Dave, I'm not sure you understand how the internet works...

Just kidding. Your take is both thoughtful and refreshing :)

[shovelhd]

I was sitting front 1/3rd of a very hilly RR Sunday (~100ft/mi)

You should have said hello! :hello:

[MikeD]

I don't get the popularity of carbon rims. They're a tad lighter, but much more expensive. They have a poor braking surface and have heat related problems with rim brakes. I don't like high profile rims either because they suck in cross winds and are heavy.

[Ralph]

I also don't get the lighter bit. When comparing clinchers, aluminum Eurus or Shamil's in 1450 gram range, Zonda's 1550, and most of the deep carbons clincher rims my friends ride are considersbly heavier...1700 plus range. Sure....the construction design of carbon tubular rims allow for a lot of weight savings. But not so much for clinchers, and maybe none for cheap deep carbon. And where there is weight savings, many times it comes from lighter hubs. I have seen some advertised light clinchers carbon rim (wheels) where the bearings are so small and few, I would doubt if the hubs would hold up for regular use. Have seen hubs worn out in a few thousand miles. So watch that.

[54ny77]

As for the light wheel thing, I presume it's the rims not total wheel weight where inertia favors the lighter rim?

Reason I ask is I've got some crazy light alu clinchers that are dt rims with those dt ceramic hubs. Comparing those and my Edge carbon wheels, it's not a huge difference in acceleration. They both work very well, noticably snappier than heavier 32 spoke 3x open pro alu wheels (as they should be).

I also don't get the lighter bit. When comparing clinchers, aluminum Eurus or Shamil's in 1450 gram range, Zonda's 1550, and most of the deep carbons clincher rims my friends ride are considersbly heavier...1700 plus range. Sure....the construction design of carbon tubular rims allow for a lot of weight savings. But not so much for clinchers, and maybe none for cheap deep carbon. And where there is weight savings, many times it comes from lighter hubs. I have seen some advertised light clinchers carbon rim (wheels) where the bearings are so small and few, I would doubt if the hubs would hold up for regular use. Have seen hubs worn out in a few thousand miles. So watch that.

[Ralph]

The design of tubular rims allows for a lot of weight savings using carbon. The design of clinchers, not so much. The "U" with hooked edges. So sure....lots of weight savings going from a 1500 gram clincher to a 1100 gram tubular rim. Not so much, clincher to clincher.

[pjmsj21]

It would be interesting to get the input and thoughts of some of the professional wheel builders that build both? OP or Ergott come to mind....

[Duende]

Took me years to convince myself to try Carbon wheels. Finally picked up some Bora 35's.

They may not be practical, but man... they sure are fun. And that's what riding is all about for me these days. Escaping work, exploring new routes, and trying new things. Made my Waterford feel like a brand new bike. :)

[FlashUNC]

Hyperons. Yes, carbon hoops. Because life is short to not try new things.

[Gummee]

Life is short. May as well try carbon rims out.

If you're JRA at 16-17mph, you may not feel much difference. ...but the faster you go, the more the carbon rims make a difference.

Up till you get to riding a disk at speed. THAT is a really neat feeling.

If I had to recommend a set, it'd be Knights, then Zipps, then ??

Braking is worlds better these days than it used to be. I still have some older rims and it's 'interesting.' The new, textured, basalt, whathaveyou brake tracks do a much better job of slowing you down

If you don't want to go whole hog into carbon, get some HED wheels with the carbon fairling. Still AL brake track so it'll stop well, as well as most of the benefits of the aero-ness of carbon

HTH

M

[shovelhd]

I don't get the popularity of carbon rims. They're a tad lighter, but much more expensive. They have a poor braking surface and have heat related problems with rim brakes. I don't like high profile rims either because they suck in cross winds and are heavy.

How many sets have you ridden extensively? Sounds like you had a bad experience.

They are price competitive with aluminum wheels if you don't need a name attached to them. I have never had a problem with braking on carbon clinchers or tubulars. They stop just fine and have no heat related issues. Some higher profile rims are worse in crosswinds than others, it depends on the profile. On high wind days I get blown about a bit on 58mm rims but I expect to. Someday I'll get a set of 38mm rims for those kinds of days. As for weight, my 58mm wheels weigh 1550g. Some would call that heavy, I don't, not for 58mm.

[chiasticon]

The design of tubular rims allows for a lot of weight savings using carbon. The design of clinchers, not so much. The "U" with hooked edges. So sure....lots of weight savings going from a 1500 gram clincher to a 1100 gram tubular rim. Not so much, clincher to clincher.it's true that you can definitely get a lot lighter tub. however, you can also get a carbon clincher rim that weighs the same or less than an aluminum clincher rim. and that's where you want to compare weights: the rim. if for the same weight, you get an aero advantage and extra stiffness, seems like an improvement to me.

[rst72]

I have been thinking of getting my first set of carbon wheels for months now.

Settled on the Boras if I do, but can't decide on 35s or 50s.

Currently riding Belgiums w/R45s, so thinking 50s since the 35s are closer to what i currently have.

I also weigh 175-180, so maybe the added stiffness would favor my weight.

[PepeM]

My carbon tubulars are my only wheels that rub my brakes.

[MaraudingWalrus]

It's ALSO worth nothing...that if your wheel rubs, it doesn't automatically mean that it's a flexy wheel...some frames flex, too.

Stand on one pedal of your bike keeping an eye on the BB shell area and a mark on the ground. Push on that pedal...you might be able to see the shell moving a hell of a lot...I know my Ritchey frame would move a whole lot there...if you've got a BB mounted brake, could very easily be rub induced from the frame twisting around the wheel, not the wheel starting to resemble a pringle.

[Plum Hill]

What if one takes aero out of the equation?
Would one notice a difference between a Campy Neutron and a Hyperon, both labeled as climbing wheels?

[PepeM]

It's ALSO worth nothing...that if your wheel rubs, it doesn't automatically mean that it's a flexy wheel...some frames flex, too.

Good point. In my case it happens on my three bikes though.

[MaraudingWalrus]

What if one takes aero out of the equation?
Would one notice a difference between a Campy Neutron and a Hyperon, both labeled as climbing wheels?


Maybe. Tire profile resulting from rim width will produce different results.

The "feel" of the wheel, IMHO, is derived from its moment of inertia, which influences how much energy is required to spin that wheel up to speed - that's what we experience when we hop on a wheelset that "feels fast."

Check out this (http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/rotating-weight/) post on Wheelfanatyk blog.

I built a pendulum like described in this article and have been surprised at the results.