U.S. Pro's Too Hard?

[Bill Bove]

On another forum the question was raised was the U.S. Pro road race too difficult? Nearly half the field was dropped on the first lap and were eventually pulled from the course, only 30 of the 105 starters finished the race.

Can a race be too hard?

Should the promoters lay out a course that would allow more finishers?

If it's a championship race shouldn't it seperate the contenders from the pretenders?


Isit fair to better prepared racers to easy up the course for the less prepared?

If it's race, shouldn't people line up at the start together but cross the finish line in the order that their fitness, talent, tactical sense and luck determine.

I'm just askin' yo.

[atmo]

stage races have daily time cuts atmo.

[Dave B]

I get it, but if this is supposed to showcase the best riders in the Nation, i want it to be as hard as hell for them!

I do not know if Hincapie is the best US rider, but he is got to be darn near the top right now.

I mean the top 2 finishers were their team leader in the Le Tour. Granted they did not perform as we all might have hoped, but still to lead your team, not too shabby.

[nm87710]

Attrition rate is always high in 1 day pro races - both in the states and abroad. The Greenville course didn't shread the field on lap one - teamwork did. Team tactics=pro racing. Many that dnf'd could have finished but if you're not in the hunt for a good solid placing and have done your teamwork then you pack it in and live to fight another day. It's not a rally where the goal is to finish. On the other hand sometimes the suits tell you to stick it out for the PR - i.e. TIAA

just my 2 pesos

[David Kirk]

It seems to me that in a one day event that there is little motivation to struggle in for 51st place unlike in a stage race where you need to finish to make into the next stage. Save it for later if you aren't really in it.

Dave

[saab2000]

If it is true that half the field got dropped on the first lap it is indicative of two things. The course is too hard and there is not much depth of talent.

The cream will rise to the top regardless and a tough course insures that the best will at least be in at the end.

But in Switzerland the courses I raced on were in my opinion too tough. From 200 starters it was common to have 20 finishers.

But this kind of attrition rate also shows that there is really still not much depth in the US. Maybe 20 or 30 really 'worthy' riders and that's about it.

[J.Greene]

On another forum the question was raised was the U.S. Pro road race too difficult? Nearly half the field was dropped on the first lap and were eventually pulled from the course, only 30 of the 105 starters finished the race.

Can a race be too hard?

Should the promoters lay out a course that would allow more finishers?

If it's a championship race shouldn't it seperate the contenders from the pretenders?


Isit fair to better prepared racers to easy up the course for the less prepared?

If it's race, shouldn't people line up at the start together but cross the finish line in the order that their fitness, talent, tactical sense and luck determine.

I'm just askin' yo.

With Jullich, Vandevelda, Horner, Rodriguez, Landis, Farrar etc all in good shape it would have been a different race. Give it a few years in this format and the racers will adapt. This could help motivate some domestic racers to reach a higher level.

JG

[stevep]

not too hard. just too wide a spread of talent.
a few pro tour riders who race 250 k races regularly vs a wide range of guys who are really the equivalent of cat 1 riders.
this was a gift to hincapie...and lord knows...he needed one.

[atmo]

nm87710 got it right atmo.

[Fixed]

not too hard. just too wide a spread of talent.
a few pro tour riders who race 250 k races regularly vs a wide range of guys who are really the equivalent of cat 1 riders.
this was a gift to hincapie...and lord knows...he needed one.
agreed ol wise bro
cheers

[Fat Robert]

this was a big step forward -- an all-us pro championships

the borderline pros are in a tough spot -- train more, and you work less, you work less, you got no money, because you're not making anything from your "pro" contract....

if more money comes into the sport, and the race calendar grows (which it has steadily over the last 10 years), you'll eventually see 40 or 50 guys with a legit shot at a top 5 come to this race. obviously, we are not there yet.... but this was a needed step -- hardsnot all pro race for the national jersey.

i've done paris mountain a few times, and its not *that* tough of a climb -- not like beech mountain, and certainly not like any cat 1 col in a grand tour. its a pefect climb for a circuit race like this (disclaimer: when i say that paris mountain is not a killer, its because i've raced it in cat 4 and 3 fields and no one was dying just to get up the thing...now, racing it 5 times in an all-pro field would quite clearly be a killer).

if there are tough races in the US, the riders will meet the bar if they have the support and commitment...the key is the support...more sponsors, more money, and all the junk that goes along with that....

[shinomaster]

Obviously the racers who don't finish are the losers. Those who finish, place or win.

[swoop]

Attrition rate is always high in 1 day pro races - both in the states and abroad. The Greenville course didn't shread the field on lap one - teamwork did. Team tactics=pro racing. Many that dnf'd could have finished but if you're not in the hunt for a good solid placing and have done your teamwork then you pack it in and live to fight another day. It's not a rally where the goal is to finish. On the other hand sometimes the suits tell you to stick it out for the PR - i.e. TIAA

just my 2 pesos


this is correct!!!!!!!

[J.Greene]

this was a big step forward -- an all-us pro championships

the borderline pros are in a tough spot -- train more, and you work less, you work less, you got no money, because you're not making anything from your "pro" contract....

if more money comes into the sport, and the race calendar grows (which it has steadily over the last 10 years), you'll eventually see 40 or 50 guys with a legit shot at a top 5 come to this race. obviously, we are not there yet.... but this was a needed step -- hardsnot all pro race for the national jersey.

i've done paris mountain a few times, and its not *that* tough of a climb -- not like beech mountain, and certainly not like any cat 1 col in a grand tour. its a pefect climb for a circuit race like this (disclaimer: when i say that paris mountain is not a killer, its because i've raced it in cat 4 and 3 fields and no one was dying just to get up the thing...now, racing it 5 times in an all-pro field would quite clearly be a killer).

if there are tough races in the US, the riders will meet the bar if they have the support and commitment...the key is the support...more sponsors, more money, and all the junk that goes along with that....

Right on, hopefully in years to come this race will be the showcase philly was, but with US riders. This race was all good.

JG

[93legendti]

"Hard is what makes it great".

[I Drink Bile]

On another forum the question was raised was the U.S. Pro road race too difficult? Nearly half the field was dropped on the first lap and were eventually pulled from the course, only 30 of the 105 starters finished the race.

Can a race be too hard?

Should the promoters lay out a course that would allow more finishers?

If it's a championship race shouldn't it seperate the contenders from the pretenders?


Isit fair to better prepared racers to easy up the course for the less prepared?

If it's race, shouldn't people line up at the start together but cross the finish line in the order that their fitness, talent, tactical sense and luck determine.

I'm just askin' yo.


The course cannot be too hard. If they were a bunch of babies, they would have ridden tempo up the climbs. It does go to show you how few guys can make the cut to go Pro Tour in their careers. Three guys basically rode the field off of their wheels, and they were saying something.

[nm87710]

i've done paris mountain a few times, and its not *that* tough of a climb --

if there are tough races in the US, the riders will meet the bar if they have the support and commitment...the key is the support...more sponsors, more money, and all the junk that goes along with that....

Courses aren't tough. Racers make some races tough, others not. Yesterday was tough due to euro-teamwork - not necessarily same jersey teams. It was team euro-pro against the domestic squads. Pretty clear George, Levi and DavidZ were racing as a team. Levi shelled 50 guys up the climb on lap 1! Zabrieski tore what was left apart the 2nd time up the climb. He had no plans to finish. Levi did all the heavy lifting for George. Kinda of a pay-it-forward thing w/Levi needing George at his side for the '07 Tour campaign.

FYI, only the first 9 riders finished the whole race. The others scored as "finishing" were too far back at 9+min so the officials stopped their race before starting the final 3 short 4mi finishing circuits - kinda like getting lapped and pulled in a crit. If you look at pro championship results from other countries you'll see the same kind of top euro-dog domination and destruction. Why would we expect anything less from the best?

just my 2 pesos...

[saab2000]

My zwei Rappen or deux centimes say that NM87710 is correct about the teamwork and the fact that a handful of riders were head and shoulders above the others.

Getting shelled and dropped is not the same as "Mission Accomplished, I'm going back to the team van for a massage".

[Fat Robert]

Courses aren't tough. Racers make some races tough, others not. Yesterday was tough due to euro-teamwork - not necessarily same jersey teams. It was team euro-pro against the domestic squads. Pretty clear George, Levi and DavidZ were racing as a team. Levi shelled 50 guys up the climb on lap 1! Zabrieski tore what was left apart the 2nd time up the climb. He had no plans to finish. Levi did all the heavy lifting for George. Kinda of a pay-it-forward thing w/Levi needing George at his side for the '07 Tour campaign.

FYI, only the first 9 riders finished the whole race. The others scored as "finishing" were too far back at 9+min so the officials stopped their race before starting the final 3 short 4mi finishing circuits - kinda like getting lapped and pulled in a crit. If you look at pro championship results from other countries you'll see the same kind of top euro-dog domination and destruction. Why would we expect anything less from the best?

just my 2 pesos...

true

but -- the course does make some difference...look at the trends in philly since 95 or so....

fstrthnu and the other pros i've met have said that nothing develops a rider like stage racing. 10 years ago, how many 7 day races were there on the us calendar? not many. now, a regional pro can do 4 or so a year, a national pro can do nearly 10. the more of these kinds of races that develop and stick, the better our domestic pros are going to get...

[shinomaster]

Gee...I thought Paris Roubaix and the Tour of Flanders were partly difficult because of the roads, hills and weather..Then the Crazy Belgians.

[obtuse]

Gee...I thought Paris Roubaix and the Tour of Flanders were partly difficult because of the roads, hills and weather..Then the Crazy Belgians.


the only mountain anywhere near roubaix is space mountain at euro disney.

obtuse

[shinomaster]

I Was thinking of Flanders...and the road conditions of PR..IMHO

[Fat Robert]

that's it

we cobble paris mountain

send em up that five times

[toaster]

The race just happened to be in Hincapie's back yard and his on training hill. The Pro Tour guys ratcheted up the pace and blew the domestic guys up and then Discovery's newest rider (Leipheimer) worked to give the company a much needed win since the departure of Lance.

Not my idea of a USPRO race. Isn't there a big stage race somewhere in Europe at the moment where George, Levi, and Dave Z. can compete against some Spainards or Brits, or Germans?

[Lifelover]

not too hard. just too wide a spread of talent.
a few pro tour riders who race 250 k races regularly vs a wide range of guys who are really the equivalent of cat 1 riders.
this was a gift to hincapie...and lord knows...he needed one.

Does this mean that GH will wear a USA national jersey next year in European races?

[swoop]

Does this mean that GH will wear a USA national jersey next year in European races?

yes.

[saab2000]

Does this mean that GH will wear a USA national jersey next year in European races?

Yes

[Ti Designs]

As I've taken to only speaking for myself, I can honestly say the race was probably way too hard for me.

[fstrthnu]

There was a big difference in speeds between the front group(1-13) and the group of 18 sprinting for 14th.

I was in the front group initially after the major selecton happened the second time up the climb and it was very hard to be there. The third time up the climb I just got popped in the last 200m (steep part) of the climb and couldn't catch back on. I rode around with my team mate Thad Dulin, Kirk Obee and Tom Zirbel in no man's land as the second group was 7 minutes behind us four. We were caught before the 4th climb by a group of 20. I couldn't believe how much easier the second group was to ride in compared to the 1st. Health Net was setting tempo up the climb in the now second group on the road and I never got out of my comfort zone. I worked a lot on my climbing before this race and shed some extra pounds too..

We rode around for anther lap and started racing and attacking each other coming into the finish line (we did not do any small laps). I am happy with 26th but I would not be as happy if I wasn't in that front group initially. It was really cool to actually be at THE front of the race if only for a lap. Oh yeah, I broke a wheel before the third climb... slowest wheel change ever too, not an excuse but was def a pain in the *** as it happened on the run in to the third climb. That is the third AC 420 rear wheel I have broken this season.

Fstrthnu

[Fat Robert]

hey j


i was the fool yellin at you on PM


i was guessing you were, you know, in the zone

[Bill Bove]

No he was ignoring you. The rainbow wig, bare chest with "I heart fstrnthu" written on it and the tour de france clacker tubes kinda freaked him out.

[Fixed]

Oh yeah, I broke a wheel before the third climb... slowest wheel change ever too, not an excuse but was def a pain in the *** as it happened on the run in to the third climb. That is the third AC 420 rear wheel I have broken this season.

Fstrthnu
bummer bro

[crf]

Maybe this could be a separate thread...but could cycling exist without teams? That is, every one for himself?

Perhaps that was the arrangement once upon a time?

[atmo]

Maybe this could be a separate thread...but could cycling exist without teams? That is, every one for himself?

Perhaps that was the arrangement once upon a time?
that's an aids ride.
or a triathlon atmo.

or the tues nite worlds...