"You don't have the right of way."

[kookmyers]

-

[Louis]

Unless the driver is unusually open-minded, "talking" to them about the stupid stuff they've just done is usually fruitless. It does allow the cyclist to blow off some steam, but if the driver is not an older lady, but instead another guy, and worse yet, an aggressive guy, things often escalate and you never know where they'll end up.

[homagesilkhope]

Yep, my experience is the driver's ability to reason clearly, much less in a way favorable to you, rarely improves under direct questioning.

[Neil]

I was very disappointed to learn that this type of behaviour from the driver cannot be answered by simply opening fire on them.

What use is the second amendment if it can't be used to even up the power imbalance of driver vs rider?

[Louis]

I was very disappointed to learn that this type of behaviour from the driver cannot be answered by simply opening fire on them.

What use is the second amendment if it can't be used to even up the power imbalance of driver vs rider?

Better watch it, PUNK...

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03326/potd-tank-v-car_3326168b.jpg

[ahumblecycler]

If you opt to do this again (hopefully you will not be presented with that choice but drivers are :bike:), I would advise you to not follow the person onto their personal property. I get why you did what you did:bike, but when you went onto her property without her permission, you put yourself in a bad position particularly since you mentioned your tone was angry and sarcastic.

I emphasize with you - most of us likely do - but you need to be careful as the "cyclist" what your actions are portraying to that driver (and then the driver's social and physical friends - people blab). I have "lectured" many drivers but only in public areas (typically the next stop light or stop sign). I do not follow a driver to a home though.

I'm not saying that count yourself lucky that the driver acted poorly and/or that you did not get hurt but do be aware how your response can be perceived with the potential of escalating the situation. Again I emphasize but we all need to be careful.

[Neil]

Ultimately this sort of thing will continue as long as there are ignorant, entitled people in existence - so likely forever.

Self driving cars will solve this - take the human out of the decision making process, and the human failings that create these situations go with them.

That way you can sue Tesla for being right-hooked, if it does happen, and then it's provably negligence on their part and should get fixed.

[Bruce K]

First guns, then lawsuits.

Feeling a little testy this morning are we?

Let's focus on the OP's handling of the situation.

BK

[Neil]

The guns thing was a joke, the solution to this problem is not to look at how the OP handled it - it's to look at why the OP had to handle anything.

The left hook (here) or right hook (where you drive on the other side) is the single most common cause of serious injury to cyclists, and it's because people either don't look or don't care - that latter one being what's in evidence in the OP's narrative.

We, as cyclists, can't fix billions of drivers. Reduce that to Tesla, Google, Apple - these companies can be held accountable in a way that we refuse to hold individuals accountable.

The driver in the OP's story should have their licence revoked, until such a time as they demonstrate genuine understanding of what they did wrong and an ability to drive to the rules of the road without endangering others.

That's clearly never, ever going to happen though - so it's pointless hoping for it.

I understand why the OP did what he did, it's maddening when our lives are risked by idiots, but it's part of cycling.

[Peter P.]

We, as cyclists, can't fix billions of drivers. Reduce that to Tesla, Google, Apple - these companies can be held accountable in a way that we refuse to hold individuals accountable.


I disagree. Expect auto manufacturers to have the laws rewritten protecting them from responsibility in the event of an accident.

You can't fix stupid, and most car drivers ARE. Unfortunately, kookmyers met one of them.

I met one of them many years ago. She seemed entitled, and I think during our "conversation" she related it didn't matter what she did because her son was a police officer. You can interpret the rest.

[Neil]

I don't think that will happen - look at Apple and encryption.

The US wants them to cripple their encryption - Apple are refusing, knowing that to bow to a single market would be extremely negative. It's also insane to cripple encryption as it would enable any amount of criminal enterprise.

Same thing with (say) Tesla - they'd be nuts to bow to US government pressure to not stop cars from hitting cyclists, as they'd have to write a US specific software that didn't account for other road users. There's no way the EU would accept an auto-driving car that couldn't see peds and cyclists, so the software for that market would have to account for them.

[dekindy]

the solution to this problem is not to look at how the OP handled it - it's to look at why the OP had to handle anything.

To obtain an Indiana motorcycle endorsement, a 2-day class is required that includes written and riding skills tests. The entire focus is defensive riding strategies. They don't sit around reviewing scenarios like the OP's and what should be done about the car driver. The total focus is on anticipating incidents and how to minimize your chances of getting hit.

At the minimum, the OP should be assuming that no driver sees him and will turn in front of him or hook him, knowing the most strategic way to position himself in lanes to put the most distance between himself and other vehicles and knowing his escape routes which means having a rear view mirror , guarding his brakes, and using hand signals to indicate turning, avoid the incident and ride on.

I drive the speed limit in my car and impatient car drivers do this to me. To expect car drivers to not do this to bicycles is unrealistic and will get you killed.

Now tear into me and tell me that bicycle riders should not have to do this.

[fuzzalow]

The OP discussion/confrontation with the driver was futile and pointless.

Everything done in the activity of riding a bicycle is one-sided only involving what the rider can can do, influence or control as pertaining to his immediate riding environment. How well does a rider identify, know and anticipate the variables he will encounter and the calculated actions taken in response are all that matters.

Anytime you ride, you play the odds for completing a ride in one piece. You do everything you can to increase the odds in your favor. Having an emotional reaction to anything that happens on the road is counterproductive to the discipline & self control in your decision making process employed in your riding.

Of course there may be times when you might be caught off guard from somebody doing something dangerous that you haven't seen before. Fine. Learn from it so you can identify and anticipate that action again in the future. After a while, the dangerous stupid actions you might encounter are not new but simply variations on the theme you have seen before.

Lecturing or discussing with any driver? Laughable. You think you're so smart and they're so stupid - and meanwhile they're thinking the exact same of you.

[choke]

Better watch it, PUNK...

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03326/potd-tank-v-car_3326168b.jpgHeh....apropos that you used a pic of a British tank. :beer:

[Neil]

To obtain an Indiana motorcycle endorsement, a 2-day class is required that includes written and riding skills tests. The entire focus is defensive riding strategies. They don't sit around reviewing scenarios like the OP's and what should be done about the car driver. The total focus is on anticipating incidents and how to minimize your chances of getting hit.

At the minimum, the OP should be assuming that no driver sees him and will turn in front of him or hook him, knowing the most strategic way to position himself in lanes to put the most distance between himself and other vehicles and knowing his escape routes which means having a rear view mirror , guarding his brakes, and using hand signals to indicate turning, avoid the incident and ride on.

I drive the speed limit in my car and impatient car drivers do this to me. To expect car drivers to not do this to bicycles is unrealistic and will get you killed.

Now tear into me and tell me that bicycle riders should not have to do this.

I agree, cyclists have to do this, today - as car drivers won't take responsibility for themselves.

I don't see where I've denied this?

As I said, it's part of cycling to have your life repeatedly threatened, and in some cases ended, due to others selfish sense of entitlement and inability to take responsibility for their own actions. It is what it is - a tragedy, but one which we need to deal with.

As ever, the problem with ignoring reality is that reality won't ignore you.

But I won't join you in blaming the victim.

[AngryScientist]

To obtain an Indiana motorcycle endorsement, a 2-day class is required that includes written and riding skills tests. The entire focus is defensive riding strategies. They don't sit around reviewing scenarios like the OP's and what should be done about the car driver. The total focus is on anticipating incidents and how to minimize your chances of getting hit.

At the minimum, the OP should be assuming that no driver sees him and will turn in front of him or hook him, knowing the most strategic way to position himself in lanes to put the most distance between himself and other vehicles and knowing his escape routes which means having a rear view mirror , guarding his brakes, and using hand signals to indicate turning, avoid the incident and ride on.

I drive the speed limit in my car and impatient car drivers do this to me. To expect car drivers to not do this to bicycles is unrealistic and will get you killed.

Now tear into me and tell me that bicycle riders should not have to do this.

i agree with this strategy 100%.

[93legendti]

If you opt to do this again (hopefully you will not be presented with that choice but drivers are :bike:), I would advise you to not follow the person onto their personal property. I get why you did what you did:bike, but when you went onto her property without her permission, you put yourself in a bad position particularly since you mentioned your tone was angry and sarcastic.

I emphasize with you - most of us likely do - but you need to be careful as the "cyclist" what your actions are portraying to that driver (and then the driver's social and physical friends - people blab). I have "lectured" many drivers but only in public areas (typically the next stop light or stop sign). I do not follow a driver to a home though.

I'm not saying that count yourself lucky that the driver acted poorly and/or that you did not get hurt but do be aware how your response can be perceived with the potential of escalating the situation. Again I emphasize but we all need to be careful.

Yup.

To the OP:
I am sorry you got cut off. We have all been there.

I have seen these confrontations escalate. I just smile and wave and say "have a nice day".

I would NEVER follow a person home and enter their property for the purposes of confronting/"educating" them. Nor should anyone. The only good that could ever come out of it would be a "you are so right, I am so sorry, you really convinced me. I will never do that again". How likely is that?


If someone followed me home and pulled onto my property to educate me/elicit an apology, I would be unsettled.

[R3awak3n]

I agree. Wait, you followed an older lady home? Think about that for a second.... look, you are right, she shouod have not done that but now she thinks you are wrong still, you wasted your time and followed an old lady into her home.

[AngryScientist]

If someone followed me home and pulled onto my property to educate me/elicit an apology, I would be unsettled.


Me: 6'4 male


more specifically, if i found out that some big dude followed my wife or mother home for the purpose of a confrontation, i wouldn't feel too good about that.

[cmg]

"At the minimum, the OP should be assuming that no driver sees him and will turn in front of him or hook him, knowing the most strategic way to position himself in lanes to put the most distance between himself and other vehicles and knowing his escape routes which means having a rear view mirror , guarding his brakes, and using hand signals to indicate turning, avoid the incident and ride on."

and do this with every car they come across. being aware of the surroundings is the most important thing.

[tommyrod74]

more specifically, if i found out that some big dude followed my wife or mother home for the purpose of a confrontation, i wouldn't feel too good about that.

If you don't want someone following you home, don't almost kill them with a car.

[Ken Robb]

Since I am over 70 I had to retake the written tests for autos and motorcycles when I renewed my license(s) a couple of years ago. There was NO question that mentioned bicycles in any way so I'd guess there was no info in the booklet issued by our DMV about bicycles responsibilities and privileges so the ignorance of this driver and others is, unfortunately, understandable.

[ColonelJLloyd]

If you don't want someone following you home, don't almost kill them with a car.

Simple as that, eh? Ok.

[zlin]

Keep a hand on your brakes, check around when in traffic, keep your lights charged and ON, assume that nobody sees or cares to see you on your bike, live to ride tomorrow.

[Tony T]

Better watch it, PUNK...

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03326/potd-tank-v-car_3326168b.jpg

…he with the most lugnuts wins.

[shovelhd]

From your description, I can't visualize the situation completely. You said you took the lane (I would of done the same), but yet she passed you. How? Did she some around on your left and right-hook you? If so, she's completely in the wrong.

I agree with others that confronting drivers at their homes never ends well. I don't do it.

[kookmyers]

In posting this, I knew I would get some grief for my actions. I hoped some of you would get a laugh out of the absurdity of what she was saying.

I am still blown away. If I had a rear view mirror, my actions would not have been any different. I still don't know what she wanted from me (other than to not exist of course).

Thanks for the constructive feedback.

[kookmyers]

From your description, I can't visualize the situation completely. You said you took the lane (I would of done the same), but yet she passed you. How? Did she some around on your left and right-hook you?

There are two lanes in our direction and a third for making a right turn at the intersection. I was in the turn lane and she passed me in the next lane over.

Bummer...I tried to be so descriptive! ;)

[zap]

There are two lanes in our direction and a third for making a right turn at the intersection. I was in the turn lane and she passed me in the next lane over.

Bummer...I tried to be so descriptive! ;)

yuuup, it was in there.

The only suggestion (other than staying off personal property) I can offer..........you need to develop some awesome one liners that have a good chance of leaving an impression.

[biker72]

To obtain an Indiana motorcycle endorsement, a 2-day class is required that includes written and riding skills tests. The entire focus is defensive riding strategies. They don't sit around reviewing scenarios like the OP's and what should be done about the car driver. The total focus is on anticipating incidents and how to minimize your chances of getting hit.

At the minimum, the OP should be assuming that no driver sees him and will turn in front of him or hook him, knowing the most strategic way to position himself in lanes to put the most distance between himself and other vehicles and knowing his escape routes which means having a rear view mirror , guarding his brakes, and using hand signals to indicate turning, avoid the incident and ride on.

+1000
It's hard to get eye contact with a driver if the window tint is so dark you can't tell for sure if anyone is driving. I assume they don't see me.

Under no condition do I follow anyone home and escalate the situation.
If it's serious enough, call the police and let them handle it.

[bobswire]

The OP discussion/confrontation with the driver was futile and pointless.

Everything done in the activity of riding a bicycle is one-sided only involving what the rider can can do, influence or control as pertaining to his immediate riding environment. How well does a rider identify, know and anticipate the variables he will encounter and the calculated actions taken in response are all that matters.

Anytime you ride, you play the odds for completing a ride in one piece. You do everything you can to increase the odds in your favor. Having an emotional reaction to anything that happens on the road is counterproductive to the discipline & self control in your decision making process employed in your riding.

Of course there may be times when you might be caught off guard from somebody doing something dangerous that you haven't seen before. Fine. Learn from it so you can identify and anticipate that action again in the future. After a while, the dangerous stupid actions you might encounter are not new but simply variations on the theme you have seen before.

Lecturing or discussing with any driver? Laughable. You think you're so smart and they're so stupid - and meanwhile they're thinking the exact same of you.

In a word, this.

[shovelhd]

There are two lanes in our direction and a third for making a right turn at the intersection. I was in the turn lane and she passed me in the next lane over.

Bummer...I tried to be so descriptive! ;)

So I had it right, she right-hooked you. She turned right from the travel lane, crossing your path in the right turn lane. How could she possibly have the right of way? Sounds absurd to me.

[cinco]

I had pretty much same thing happen to me yesterday on my commute home. Divided road with 2 lanes each direction. Had a woman in a vehicle honk at me from the other lane, while still behind me. Then, as I pulled up to the next stop light, I couldn't help but shake my head at her, still in the other lane, with a kid in the passenger seat. Light turned green and I pulled away quickly down the road. About a few hundred yards later, she cut right into an intersecting road from the left lane just feet in front of me. Chose to go on my way instead of chase (not always so sensible). She was clearly unaware or uncaring of the danger she put me in. Why would that change if I confront? She's already telling me her side of the story.

Good on the OP for doing his best to keep it civil. Why not file a complaint with the local PD? Attitudes might change if the police are getting regular calls about endangerment. The PD may start considering it the public safety issue it is.

Wish I had an onboard camera. I'd report my incident in a heartbeat.

Andy in Houston

[93KgBike]

Where I live, if you follow someone home you will definitely be shot. This is not a joke. In fact, you stand a real chance of being shot during any traffic confrontation down here.

A lifetime of riding dirt then sport bikes - motorcycles - made me a truly frosty defensive driver. That alertness is why I have survived several serious car/bicycle collisions. So I agree strongly with dekindly and fuzzalow.

Avoid escalating or trying to win in road confrontations. Expect drivers to kill you if you are in any type of collision (the physics alone powerfully drive likeliness of this outcome) and behave with the appropriate reflection on the humanity and fallibility of everyone using the roads by planning ahead for the worst outcome and defending against that by your own actions, alone.

Oh yeah, and commuters should ride on the sidewalks if it is legal in your jurisdiction, American pedestrians are a seriously endangered species.

[Burnette]

I had a confrontation with a car driver today on my way home. I ride with a Fly6 so I have the audio from our chat. I did not point the camera at the other person. Just thought I would share.

Me: 6'4 male riding a road bike with a white helmet, neon green backpack, fly6 tail light in flash mode, a second 100 lumen tail light also in flash mode, and a bright head light on my bars in daytime flash mode.
Time: approximately 5pm, plenty of light, clear day

I was riding north on Morena Blvd which has 2 lanes in both directions. My route has me turn on Avati Dr. Approaching Avati the road opens to allow a turn lane. Morena Blvd is downhill in this section. I ride on the right and when the turn lane becomes available I take it by riding to the left of the imaginary center line.
I ride approximately 30mph (or as fast as I can) down the hill then apply my brakes to make the turn on a green turn light. Posted speed limit is 40 I think.
Today, in the same situation, a car (MINI cooper roadster...not sure the exact model) passed me when I was in the turn lane braking to make the turn. They applied their blinker and brakes and made the turn right in front of me. Had I not been turning, I would have slammed into the side of the car, or perhaps worse, glanced off the rear side of the car and into traffic where I might be hit by a 50mph car.
This upset me. I yelled at the car as it drove away from me. At this point we are in a neighborhood going up a hill. I am angry and want to make the driver aware of what happened. I ended up being successful in following them to their home. I pulled into the driveway, and stopped, staying 15-20 feet away from what turns out to be an older lady.
Here is the dialog. I did my best to pick up what was being said but there is one part I can't hear what she is saying.
My tone is angry and sarcastic.
Me: hi there. I don't think it's very safe to put your blinker on and turn from the other lane.
Her: well, I'm going around you because you were slowing down. Otherwise I would hit you...you were slowing down.
Me: (I interrupted before she completed the sentence.). (Flabbergasted). You couldn't have gone behind me???
Her: no, I couldn't slow down that fast. (I can't make out her next sentence). You need to watch the cars behind you.
Me. (Sarcasm) OH...you can't use your brakes.
Her: you need to watch the cars in back of you...you don't have the right of way.
Me: (mentally lost it at her last statement). Wait, excuse me? I made a right hand turn. You turned from the lane next to me in front of me.
Her: again, I had to go all the way around you. There was [sic] cars in back of me you know? You need to slow down and watch the cars in back of you. Because we have the right of way...except for pedestrians.

End of transcript. The conversation didn't end there but this was the "best" section. Since this is being publicly posted for all to read, the conversation remained as civil as is presented, no foul language, name calling, or threatening was used by either party, and she proceeded to enter her home and I went on my way.

It will be interesting to see where this thread goes.

Oh wow man, so many wrongs here. What you are hoping to accomplish and what could possibly go wrong are at an intersect.
I have been riding a bike on the road since 2006 and I ride like everybody is out to kill me. I try to be aware of my surroundings and if a car is next to me I'm ready to brake, people are distracted, crazy or both. So initially it's on you, on the road you are vulnerable, act accordingly.

Next, learn to let snit go man. Just last year on Union Cross Road in Kernersville, NC I had a young kid go around me and take a hard right in front of me onto a side street. I heard him speed up behind me, he made eye contact when he was beside me, I was already braking at that point and clinched them hard when he cut me off. The street was a dead end. I stopped, took a deep breath and let it go, nothing good would have come from me going after him. Think about the outcome you want if you go after somebody and think about worse case scenarios of what might happen, because they might.

Sweet baby Jesus, I'm a cyclist but if you follow my wife home to the driveway, even if she made a mistake, we'll have fun son. Stop doing that. Escalation is the worse thing you can do. And she didn't learn a darn thing from this other than you're creepy. You're never going to get that after school special outcome you want and you just may get a very terrible one.

Life lesson: You can only change you cupcake, you can change how you react to a situation before, during and after it. Work on that. Despite what momma told you, you can't change the world and you won't "fix" people with this behavior.

To be on the road you have to have a cool head and a thick skin. It's not for the faint hearted among us. If I went after every wrong doer I would have legs like Mark Cavendish or be dead. I take fingers, horns, close passes and coal rolling in stride, if you can't deal don't go out there. And for real, in traffic and really the car was close to you, always be prepared for the worse. People misjudge our speed, don't see us or don't care, it's your job, your life to be prepared. Talking about laws and your rights will be for your family and lawyer to fight, your fight will be over.

The biggest thing you need to do after all that is stop chasing. You'll catch something you wish you hadn't one day. It's all fun and games till you're sitting in a suit in court. Or worse.

[drewellison]

It's exactly this reason that I commute with a Fly6 AND a GoPro Session up front. I've had more close encounters with cars in front of me than behind me (that I know of.)

[Gummee]

I get why the OP did what he did. How else are we supposed to 'educate' the unwashed masses when they almost kill us?!

Having said that, I know it's futile at best and dangerous at worst.

'Cause I've BTDT and have the scars to prove that shoulder blocking a hit-and-run right hooker hurts.

M

[kookmyers]

Sweet baby Jesus, I'm a cyclist but if you follow my wife home to the driveway, even if she made a mistake, we'll have fun son.


First, I agree with most of everything you wrote.

But I am reading that if the situation were in your driveway, you would have turned it physical. (I have read it several times and realize I am making an assumption). You would not have listened to what I had to say? Is the problem with the confrontation in itself? Or that I was in the driveway? If I had posted that I remained on the sidewalk (about 5 feet from where I was) would that change your reaction and my assumed physicality from you?

How do these threads end? I can stop responding and pushing it to the top. I will do just that right after I post this. ;)


Happy Friday everyone!

[Mzilliox]

all she did was cut you off? oh man, thats weekly here, having someone turn right right in front of me. wait until some idiot wants to play chicken in the oncoming lane or runs you into the ditch for the second time this year. is it really worth it to give the morality lesson? big chance to take, id hate to come off worse chasing someone who "came close to hitting me" then decided to actually hit me.

[mecse]

I had a confrontation with a car driver today on my way home. I ride with a Fly6 so I have the audio from our chat. I did not point the camera at the other person. Just thought I would share.

Me: 6'4 male riding a road bike with a white helmet, neon green backpack, fly6 tail light in flash mode, a second 100 lumen tail light also in flash mode, and a bright head light on my bars in daytime flash mode.
Time: approximately 5pm, plenty of light, clear day

I was riding north on Morena Blvd which has 2 lanes in both directions. My route has me turn on Avati Dr. Approaching Avati the road opens to allow a turn lane. Morena Blvd is downhill in this section. I ride on the right and when the turn lane becomes available I take it by riding to the left of the imaginary center line.
I ride approximately 30mph (or as fast as I can) down the hill then apply my brakes to make the turn on a green turn light. Posted speed limit is 40 I think.
Today, in the same situation, a car (MINI cooper roadster...not sure the exact model) passed me when I was in the turn lane braking to make the turn. They applied their blinker and brakes and made the turn right in front of me. Had I not been turning, I would have slammed into the side of the car, or perhaps worse, glanced off the rear side of the car and into traffic where I might be hit by a 50mph car.
This upset me. I yelled at the car as it drove away from me. At this point we are in a neighborhood going up a hill. I am angry and want to make the driver aware of what happened. I ended up being successful in following them to their home. I pulled into the driveway, and stopped, staying 15-20 feet away from what turns out to be an older lady.
Here is the dialog. I did my best to pick up what was being said but there is one part I can't hear what she is saying.
My tone is angry and sarcastic.
Me: hi there. I don't think it's very safe to put your blinker on and turn from the other lane.
Her: well, I'm going around you because you were slowing down. Otherwise I would hit you...you were slowing down.
Me: (I interrupted before she completed the sentence.). (Flabbergasted). You couldn't have gone behind me???
Her: no, I couldn't slow down that fast. (I can't make out her next sentence). You need to watch the cars behind you.
Me. (Sarcasm) OH...you can't use your brakes.
Her: you need to watch the cars in back of you...you don't have the right of way.
Me: (mentally lost it at her last statement). Wait, excuse me? I made a right hand turn. You turned from the lane next to me in front of me.
Her: again, I had to go all the way around you. There was [sic] cars in back of me you know? You need to slow down and watch the cars in back of you. Because we have the right of way...except for pedestrians.

End of transcript. The conversation didn't end there but this was the "best" section. Since this is being publicly posted for all to read, the conversation remained as civil as is presented, no foul language, name calling, or threatening was used by either party, and she proceeded to enter her home and I went on my way.

It will be interesting to see where this thread goes.

I can't wait, honestly, until cars no longer have human drivers.

Every law around the world stipulates that you're supposed to maintain distance sufficient to brake between you and the vehicle in front. Car or bike.

She's frustrated because you slowed her down, by about 3 seconds of her commute. We've all been on the car side of this and it's no fun having to slow down, but hey, whatever. Sounds like living in San Diego has its own cycling issues compared to NYC.

[BobbyJones]

I don't know why cyclists with time on the road even confront anymore, besides a simple, calm "Can you please be more careful? You almost hit me back there. Thank You!"

Even with that I get either get a look of genuine surprise or an adamant denial, sometimes hostile. No one ever says "Sorry, I didn't think I was that close" or anything of the sort.

It's really a no win unless you're the one eager for a fight.

[Burnette]

First, I agree with most of everything you wrote.

But I am reading that if the situation were in your driveway, you would have turned it physical. (I have read it several times and realize I am making an assumption). You would not have listened to what I had to say? Is the problem with the confrontation in itself? Or that I was in the driveway? If I had posted that I remained on the sidewalk (about 5 feet from where I was) would that change your reaction and my assumed physicality from you?

How do these threads end? I can stop responding and pushing it to the top. I will do just that right after I post this. ;)


Happy Friday everyone!

Yeah, you have to get over the self sense of grandeur, nobody cares what you have to say. Nobody. And yes, if you were in my driveway confronting my wife, I would remove you, chips fall where they may. You don't see yourself at all in this situation. Pick someone you love and let them tell you somebody followed them home and confronted them about anything. How you don't see the fallacy and the danger of this behavior is mind boggling.

And you're missing my whole post. One, it's your responsibility to watch out and ride defensively, Two, people have issues, get over it and Three, most importantly don't chase and certainly don't catch. Five feet, on the street, it don't matter son, you were wrong to chase and catch period. Stop doing that. You're an aggressor and one thing you will learn in this life is that aggressors find other aggressors and it will end badly at some point. Trust.

I don't know how you've ridden on the road this long if an incident like that does this much to you. Either learn to let stuff go or stop riding on the road.

I've had way worse happen to me and not even mention it to another soul, ever, I left it on the road behind me. Its' no different than driving a car or riding a motorcycle, things are going to happen, it's your reaction to it that needs to change.

[93legendti]

more specifically, if i found out that some big dude followed my wife or mother home for the purpose of a confrontation, i wouldn't feel too good about that.


+1

Plenty of people would be put into a reasonable apprehension of harm to themselves/their loved ones by a person trespassing and demanding an apology.

Textbook definition of a "bad idea".

[BobO]

+1

Plenty of people would be put into a reasonable apprehension of harm to themselves/their loved ones by a person trespassing and demanding an apology.

Textbook definition of a "bad idea".

It's understandable to be angry and want some answers, but ya, following someone home is a bad idea for a number of reasons. That being said, the driver in this case really does need an education in safe operation of her vehicle. We have a similar intersection here and I see this exact scenario at least weekly. The problem is that the driver is ignorant. How do we change that?

[zap]

It's understandable to be angry and want some answers, but ya, following someone home is a bad idea for a number of reasons. That being said, the driver in this case really does need an education in safe operation of her vehicle. We have a similar intersection here and I see this exact scenario at least weekly. The problem is that the driver is ignorant. How do we change that?

Call the police.

We worked (and received some training) with local police on various programs in the past.

Following someone home (if they are that little bit too far away to read the plate) is not a bad idea. As you ride by the offenders house note the street number then call the police.

[redir]

So what do you think of the fly camera system? I'm thinking about getting one but dang they are not cheap. $400 bucks for a front and back. I'm just wondering if they are worth it. It would be worthless to me if they cannot pickup lisence plates very accurately.

Also do they work when the lights are blinking?

[djg21]

So what do you think of the fly camera system? I'm thinking about getting one but dang they are not cheap. $400 bucks for a front and back. I'm just wondering if they are worth it. It would be worthless to me if they cannot pickup lisence plates very accurately.

Also do they work when the lights are blinking?

I like my Fly6 and haven’t ridden without one for three seasons. The Fly12 is just too big IMHO. I wish Cycliq would build a front camera without a headlight, perhaps like the Fly6 with a clear/white lens. The Fly6 is always blinking in some fashion.

[makoti]

You think you're so smart and they're so stupid - and meanwhile they're thinking the exact same of you.

And that sums up every conversation ever. ;)

[Gummee]

Yeah, you have to get over the self sense of grandeur, nobody cares what you have to say. Nobody. And yes, if you were in my driveway confronting my wife, I would remove you, chips fall where they may. You don't see yourself at all in this situation. Pick someone you love and let them tell you somebody followed them home and confronted them about anything. How you don't see the fallacy and the danger of this behavior is mind boggling.

And you're missing my whole post. One, it's your responsibility to watch out and ride defensively, Two, people have issues, get over it and Three, most importantly don't chase and certainly don't catch. Five feet, on the street, it don't matter son, you were wrong to chase and catch period. Stop doing that. You're an aggressor and one thing you will learn in this life is that aggressors find other aggressors and it will end badly at some point. Trust.

The only problem with your 'remove you' statement is he wasn't being threatening, which would get you buried under the jail. Ratcheting up the whole thing to violence is what got the OP there in the 1st place (or don't you see 'assault with a car' as violence?!)
Assault. ... An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm. It is both a crime and a tort and, therefore, may result in either criminal or civil liability. Generally, the common law definition is the same in criminal and Tort Law.

If more vehicle drivers were charged when they endangered cyclists (and motorcyclists) I'd bet they'd think twice about it.

M

[Seramount]

I have been informed by motorists on multiple occasions that autos ALWAYS have the ROW over cyclists.

stupid DMV handbook needs to be updated...

[Ti Designs]

Right of way seems to be an entitlement thing... I was riding the other morning, I came to a red light and I stopped. I was in the bike lane and stopped at a red light, when another cyclist told me to get out of the way. Apparently cyclists who run red lights have the right of way over those who don't. It's not that people actually have the right of way, it's that they feel they have it, or they should have it.

[ceolwulf]

Just like war, it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

[redir]

I like my Fly6 and haven’t ridden without one for three seasons. The Fly12 is just to big IMHO. I wish Cycliq would build a front camera without a headlight, perhaps like the Fly6 with a clear/white lens. The Fly6 is always blinking in some fashion.

I was thinking the same thing and Have seen many other reviews that suggest they do away with the light on the front camera. Not only would it make it more affordable but I would hardly ever use it since I rarely ride at night.

[R3awak3n]

I was thinking the same thing and Have seen many other reviews that suggest they do away with the light on the front camera. Not only would it make it more affordable but I would hardly ever use it since I rarely ride at night.

then why not just get a go pro or something of that sort. It is a much better camera and its tiny.

[ptourkin]

I had a confrontation with a car driver today on my way home. I ride with a Fly6 so I have the audio from our chat. I did not point the camera at the other person. Just thought I would share.

Me: 6'4 male riding a road bike with a white helmet, neon green backpack, fly6 tail light in flash mode, a second 100 lumen tail light also in flash mode, and a bright head light on my bars in daytime flash mode.
Time: approximately 5pm, plenty of light, clear day

I was riding north on Morena Blvd which has 2 lanes in both directions. My route has me turn on Avati Dr. Approaching Avati the road opens to allow a turn lane. Morena Blvd is downhill in this section. I ride on the right and when the turn lane becomes available I take it by riding to the left of the imaginary center line.
I ride approximately 30mph (or as fast as I can) down the hill then apply my brakes to make the turn on a green turn light. Posted speed limit is 40 I think.
Today, in the same situation, a car (MINI cooper roadster...not sure the exact model) passed me when I was in the turn lane braking to make the turn. They applied their blinker and brakes and made the turn right in front of me. Had I not been turning, I would have slammed into the side of the car, or perhaps worse, glanced off the rear side of the car and into traffic where I might be hit by a 50mph car.
This upset me. I yelled at the car as it drove away from me. At this point we are in a neighborhood going up a hill. I am angry and want to make the driver aware of what happened. I ended up being successful in following them to their home. I pulled into the driveway, and stopped, staying 15-20 feet away from what turns out to be an older lady.
Here is the dialog. I did my best to pick up what was being said but there is one part I can't hear what she is saying.
My tone is angry and sarcastic.
Me: hi there. I don't think it's very safe to put your blinker on and turn from the other lane.
Her: well, I'm going around you because you were slowing down. Otherwise I would hit you...you were slowing down.
Me: (I interrupted before she completed the sentence.). (Flabbergasted). You couldn't have gone behind me???
Her: no, I couldn't slow down that fast. (I can't make out her next sentence). You need to watch the cars behind you.
Me. (Sarcasm) OH...you can't use your brakes.
Her: you need to watch the cars in back of you...you don't have the right of way.
Me: (mentally lost it at her last statement). Wait, excuse me? I made a right hand turn. You turned from the lane next to me in front of me.
Her: again, I had to go all the way around you. There was [sic] cars in back of me you know? You need to slow down and watch the cars in back of you. Because we have the right of way...except for pedestrians.

End of transcript. The conversation didn't end there but this was the "best" section. Since this is being publicly posted for all to read, the conversation remained as civil as is presented, no foul language, name calling, or threatening was used by either party, and she proceeded to enter her home and I went on my way.

It will be interesting to see where this thread goes.

Are you on SD Bike Commuter? It's a good place to discuss routing and issues like this. http://sdbikecommuter.com/forums/index.php

[Saint Vitus]

Better watch it, PUNK...


This is a little closer to the OP's location...

http://pics.imcdb.org/0ge28/288550-TANK_AD.jpg

[Gummee]

This is a little closer to the OP's location...

http://pics.imcdb.org/0ge28/288550-TANK_AD.jpg

I've driven down that road a bunch!

M

[Saint Vitus]

I've driven down that road a bunch!

M

Yep! Convoy and Othello, the Weinerschnitzel is still there (along with the 2 palm trees and the liquor store)!

[PacNW2Ford]

Right of way seems to be an entitlement thing... I was riding the other morning, I came to a red light and I stopped. I was in the bike lane and stopped at a red light, when another cyclist told me to get out of the way. Apparently cyclists who run red lights have the right of way over those who don't. It's not that people actually have the right of way, it's that they feel they have it, or they should have it.

This^ My friend was on his morning commute inbound to downtown Portland, another cyclist came up and rode beside him in the oncoming lane. A oncoming car approached and the other cyclist didn't move over. The car had to pull over to let them pass. My friend pointed out that he should have moved over. The cleaned up reply was "No way, I have a right to 'take the lane'". Ummm , not when you're in the wrong lane. Later, the guy almost ran down some pedestrians in a crosswalk. The reply to "You're supposed to stop for pedestrians too" was similarly unprintable.

[peanutgallery]

People eff up, bikes are weird for some, don't get so indignant. Things happen, and stuff like this goes on every day.

Right of way and egos aside, there is no way the OP would have followed that car to the lady's house if she was a dude and also 6-4. Pure and simple, its intimidation feigned with righteous indignation. If that would have been my long suffering bride (who happens to be 5-2, 120 pounds and a terrible operator of motor vehicles) and I got wind of it? It would be a rainy night in Lyndhurst. She made a mistake, what's a "Portlandia" episode going to do to fix it? In my neck of the woods, thing would get ugly fast and I would advise never doing what the OP did

Consider riding a mountain bike and ditching the camera, it brings out the worst in folks

[victoryfactory]

As long as cars and bicycles are using the same roads cars will make right turns in front of bicycles. Most drivers can't understand that a bike moving along the side of the road has any right of way at all. It's not taught in driving school I guess.
Be careful out there and don't give them an opportunity to hit you.

VF

[Wolfman]

I've gotta say that the thing that bothers me most about a bunch of your comments is the, "If I heard that you were calling out my wife/mom/loved one for that, you'd be in big trouble!" angle.

As the driver of the car, they are 100% responsible, and if they're not in the turning lane and make a right and put other people in danger, it's indefensible.

Your moms, wives, sisters, kids, etc. are fully their own individuals in this case, and you've got very little reasonable ground to stand on if you jump in to "help" them against the big, bad cyclist.

I see a lot of good advice about the cyclist's individual responsibility, but let's not lose focus on the specifics of this episode, eh?

[kookmyers]

I've gotta say that the thing that bothers me most about a bunch of your comments is the, "If I heard that you were calling out my wife/mom/loved one for that, you'd be in big trouble!" angle.

As the driver of the car, they are 100% responsible, and if they're not in the turning lane and make a right and put other people in danger, it's indefensible.

Your moms, wives, sisters, kids, etc. are fully their own individuals in this case, and you've got very little reasonable ground to stand on if you jump in to "help" them against the big, bad cyclist.

I see a lot of good advice about the cyclist's individual responsibility, but let's not lose focus on the specifics of this episode, eh?

Since this thread made its way back to the top, I edited my post to address my describing my height.

[93legendti]

I've gotta say that the thing that bothers me most about a bunch of your comments is the, "If I heard that you were calling out my wife/mom/loved one for that, you'd be in big trouble!" angle.

As the driver of the car, they are 100% responsible, and if they're not in the turning lane and make a right and put other people in danger, it's indefensible.

Your moms, wives, sisters, kids, etc. are fully their own individuals in this case, and you've got very little reasonable ground to stand on if you jump in to "help" them against the big, bad cyclist.

I see a lot of good advice about the cyclist's individual responsibility, but let's not lose focus on the specifics of this episode, eh?

Maybe you missed it. Many of us took issue with the OP following the driver home, and TRESPASSING to make his point. Maybe the law is different in your State, but here, based upon what I learned in Law School, entering someone else's premises without permission, to argue with them/teach them a lesson/elicit an apology is illegal and dumb. Ymmv.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by ahumblecycler View Post
If you opt to do this again (hopefully you will not be presented with that choice but drivers are ), I would advise you to not follow the person onto their personal property. I get why you did what you did:bike, but when you went onto her property without her permission, you put yourself in a bad position particularly since you mentioned your tone was angry and sarcastic.

I emphasize with you - most of us likely do - but you need to be careful as the "cyclist" what your actions are portraying to that driver (and then the driver's social and physical friends - people blab). I have "lectured" many drivers but only in public areas (typically the next stop light or stop sign). I do not follow a driver to a home though.

I'm not saying that count yourself lucky that the driver acted poorly and/or that you did not get hurt but do be aware how your response can be perceived with the potential of escalating the situation. Again I emphasize but we all need to be careful."






"Yup.

To the OP:
I am sorry you got cut off. We have all been there.

I have seen these confrontations escalate. I just smile and wave and say "have a nice day".

I would NEVER follow a person home and enter their property for the purposes of confronting/"educating" them. Nor should anyone. The only good that could ever come out of it would be a "you are so right, I am so sorry, you really convinced me. I will never do that again". How likely is that?"


If someone followed me home and pulled onto my property to educate me/elicit an apology, I would be unsettled."

[kookmyers]

"The only good that could ever come out of it would be a "you are so right, I am so sorry, you really convinced me. I will never do that again". How likely is that?""

I completely agree with this statement. I guess i am still willing to let my voice be heard for that very small chance i would get an apology. Not for the sake of the apology, but maybe, just maybe, the person will drive different the next time.

As for the trespassing, i have asked the group if their reactions would be different if i remained on the sidewalk. I have yet to hear an answer.

Thank you for the empathy. The "incident" wasn't even a bad one compared to others i have experienced on the road. I have been hit (rather i hit them) when they turned right in front of me, resulting in a broken frame. I was frustrated by this one based on the road conditions and the very poor choice made by the driver. Based on the conversation, IMO, she was taking out frustration on a cyclist, simply for the cyclist existing on the road.

[Burnette]

"The only good that could ever come out of it would be a "you are so right, I am so sorry, you really convinced me. I will never do that again". How likely is that?""

I completely agree with this statement. I guess i am still willing to let my voice be heard for that very small chance i would get an apology. Not for the sake of the apology, but maybe, just maybe, the person will drive different the next time.
As for the trespassing, i have asked the group if their reactions would be different if i remained on the sidewalk. I have yet to hear an answer.

Thank you for the empathy. The "incident" wasn't even a bad one compared to others i have experienced on the road. I have been hit (rather i hit them) when they turned right in front of me, resulting in a broken frame. I was frustrated by this one based on the road conditions and the very poor choice made by the driver. Based on the conversation, IMO, she was taking out frustration on a cyclist, simply for the cyclist existing on the road.

Here is a clear example. from a cyclist himself no less, that people will stubbornly continue to ignore what is right and do wrong repeatedly, refusing to listen. OP, you're the same as the motorist you're admonishing.

First, you're looking for an apology? Wow, and you're hoping by your actions they will drive differently? No, just like you, they won't change, they won't listen to reason or worry about any laws.

OP, I counted and there's about twenty post in your very own thread, twenty! that clearly tell you not to chase. And you say above "I have yet to hear and answer" from the group. Seriously? Twenty posts tell you not to do it and you still think it's because maybe you should just stay on the street next time or not mention your height on the forum? No, no, no, stop chasing. You had a camera, you had time to get a license plate number, call the police.

There's a stellar idea. If you won't listen to your fellow cyclist, about twenty posts worth, go ask a Policeperson if what you did was smart. Following people and escalating situations isn't the way to handle that situation.

But I see you, like some motorist you scold, won't listen and will continue. When you start arguing with the next person you will most probably see a reflection of yourself and realize, yes, I'm only arguing with myself, it's a waste of time, they won't listen.

Go back and reread your own thread and really read the parts you don't like. We've all been out there for years and years. Listen. It could save a life.

[Mark McM]

And what should the OP have done instead? Just accept the way things are, and forget about trying to change them? Are we all okay with motorists endangering cyclists, without recourse?

Maybe what the OP did wasn't the best approach, but what alternatives are being suggested?

And as far as the OP acting unreasonably, I give you this George Bernard Shaw quote:

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

[Burnette]

And what should the OP have done instead? Just accept the way things are, and forget about trying to change them? Are we all okay with motorists endangering cyclists, without recourse?

Maybe what the OP did wasn't the best approach, but what alternatives are being suggested?And as far as the OP acting unreasonably, I give you this George Bernard Shaw quote:

See here? I'm convinced nobody reads posts. Many have said call the police if you feel a law has been broken. And if he has video of it, it's a no brainer. Call. The. Police.

There are plenty of good posts here telling the OP what he could have done.

And you too, go ask an officer what he should have done. Youtube is full of incidents like this where people took it into their own hands and give someone a talking too with very, very bad results.

[GregL]

I've debated wading into this discussion, but what the heck...

I categorize dangerous road encounters into three buckets: unaware, ignorant, and deliberate. How I respond depends on the type of encounter.

Unaware are the folks who just didn't see you. It happens. As long as there was no injury or property damage, I just let these go. If injured or if anything was damaged, then notify law enforcement.

Ignorant are those who don't know the law or don't understand the physics of the problem. These are the folks who tell you to ride on the sidewalk or pull out in front of you because they misjudged how fast you were approaching. Sometimes a friendly, non-confrontational discussion can lead to a positive outcome. With that said, never follow someone and confront them in anger. When cornered, animals fight or take flight. The risk of "fight" is too great. Similar to unaware drivers, I would definitely call law enforcement in case of injury, damage, or if there was any potential for other than civil discussion.

Deliberate are those who willfully ignore the law. It can be a distracted driver or the often discussed "road ragers." Call law enforcement. Make sure to have as much evidence as possible (license plate number, description, video, corroborating witnesses, etc...). Do not engage directly. If they're willing to break vehicle traffic laws, they may be willing to do much worse. In our impolite, self-centered society, the risk associated with direct confrontation is high.

In 30+ years of enthusiast road riding. I've only called law enforcement once for a motorist incident. I was very pleased with the response from a small, suburban police department. Even though the offending motorist wasn't charged with a crime, he was sternly warned that his behavior was incorrect AND that he was now "on the radar" of the police.

Greg

[93legendti]

See here? I'm convinced nobody reads posts. Many have said call the police if you feel a law has been broken. And if he has video of it, it's a no brainer. Call. The. Police.

There are plenty of good posts here telling the OP what he could have done.

And you too, go ask an officer what he should have done. Youtube is full of incidents like this where people took it into their own hands and give someone a talking too with very, very bad results.

Here's another possibility for those who feel the only option was trespassing and confronting:

You have her address. You have her license number. Send her a letter describing what happened, asking for an apology and for ask her to be more aware of cyclists. Use your email address as your return address in the letter.

Again. I fully empathize. I have been cut off as well. It sucks. It is scary.

[BobO]

Most drivers can't understand that a bike moving along the side of the road has any right of way at all. It's not taught in driving school I guess.

This is correct.

Yesterday afternoon I tuned up my boy's bike and I was out doing a quick road test. A neighbor, someone I know, accelerated to pass me in an oncoming lane just before a stop sign where I had signaled to and intended to turn left. I was in the center of the travel lane. She got past me, almost stopped and unapologetically right-hooked me. She knew I was there, she knew I was turning left and yet she did that anyway. She did not understand that she had the obligation to yield to the cyclist like any other vehicle. There are people on the road who don't know how to drive and don't want to know how to drive.

Oh, and her hubby is pissed because I yelled at her, "what in the **** is the matter with you?"

[GregL]

Yesterday afternoon I tuned up my boy's bike and I was out doing a quick road test. A neighbor, someone I know, accelerated to pass me in an oncoming lane just before a stop sign where I had signaled to and intended to turn left. I was in the center of the travel lane. She got past me, almost stopped and unapologetically right-hooked me. She knew I was there, she knew I was turning left and yet she did that anyway. She did not understand that she had the obligation to yield to the cyclist like any other vehicle. There are people on the road who don't know how to drive and don't want to know how to drive.
I'd be willing to bet that this isn't a case of ignorance, but instead entitlement. In my book, that's a deliberate act. Your neighbor very likely knew that she was breaking the law, but felt entitled to do so since "cars are more important than bikes" or some similar rationalization. The sense of entitlement in our society is mind boggling. Driving (or cycling) on the road isn't a right, it's a privilege. Too many people have rights and privileges woefully misconstrued...

Greg

[BobO]

I'd be willing to bet that this isn't a case of ignorance, but instead entitlement. In my book, that's a deliberate act. Your neighbor very likely knew that she was breaking the law, but felt entitled to do so since "cars are more important than bikes" or some similar rationalization. The sense of entitlement in our society is mind boggling. Driving (or cycling) on the road isn't a right, it's a privilege. Too many people have rights and privileges woefully misconstrued...

Greg

Nope, in her own words she just doesn't know the rules of the road. She does not believe that she did anything wrong and believes that bikes have to get out of the way. Let's steer clear of the currently popular buzzwords and use more accurate language. She is dangerously ignorant of the rights of cyclists and her responsibilities as a driver.

[GregL]

Nope, in her own words she just doesn't know the rules of the road. She does not believe that she did anything wrong and believes that bikes have to get out of the way. Let's steer clear of the currently popular buzzwords and use more accurate language. She is dangerously ignorant of the rights of cyclists and her responsibilities as a driver.
I stand corrected (thanks!). In that case, my response in a similar situation would be to tell the ignorant motorist that I am calling 911 so that the appropriate law enforcement authority can provide information on the regulation. In answer to the potential question, yes, I have done this with neighbors. In one case the neighbor immediately apologized when they realized I wasn't threatening, I was promising. In the second case, the person in question was actually driving without a license...

Greg

[zap]

Nope, in her own words she just doesn't know the rules of the road. She does not believe that she did anything wrong and believes that bikes have to get out of the way. Let's steer clear of the currently popular buzzwords and use more accurate language. She is dangerously ignorant of the rights of cyclists and her responsibilities as a driver.

Amazingly common response.

You know what, because the wife and husband are so stupid, you should call the police and report the incident.

[BobO]

Amazingly common response.

You know what, because the wife and husband are so stupid, you should call the police and report the incident.

Nope, there are a dozen cyclists within 200 yards of my house. We'll make them a pariah in the neighborhood in under a week.

[GregL]

Nope, there are a dozen cyclists within 200 yards of my house. We'll make them a pariah in the neighborhood in under a week.
Certainly not trying to be argumentative, but if you have two law-breaking drivers (husband/wife) and a dozen cyclists, shouldn't the law-breakers be the pariahs? If they are so unstable that you fear repercussions against the cyclists, you have an even bigger problem on your hands. Again, not trying to be argumentative. My experience has been that law-breaking bullies back right down when visited by the police. If they don't back down to LEOs, they end up in jail and in the local newspaper's police blotter.

Greg

[BobO]

Certainly not trying to be argumentative, but if you have two law-breaking drivers (husband/wife) and a dozen cyclists, shouldn't the law-breakers be the pariahs? If they are so unstable that you fear repercussions against the cyclists, you have an even bigger problem on your hands. Again, not trying to be argumentative. My experience has been that law-breaking bullies back right down when visited by the police. If they don't back down to LEOs, they end up in jail and in the local newspaper's police blotter.

Greg

That's was what I was trying to say, we, as in the cyclists, will use public shaming on the bad drivers.

On edit - It's important at times to not be afraid to use harsh language with people. Some people don't get the severity of what they have done until you yell at them and call them dumbasses.

[Vientomas]

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; exception; violation; penalty; "process server" defined.
Sec. 552.

(1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not do any of the following:

(a) Enter the lands or premises of another without lawful authority after having been forbidden to do so by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

(b) Remain without lawful authority on the land or premises of another after being notified to depart by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

(c) Enter or remain without lawful authority on fenced or posted farm property of another person without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent. A request to leave the premises is not a necessary element for a violation of this subdivision. This subdivision does not apply to a person who is in the process of attempting, by the most direct route, to contact the owner or his or her lessee or agent to request consent.

Was the OP "forbidden" to enter the property?

Was the OP "notified to depart" the property?

Was the property "fenced or posted farm property"?

Under the law of your State of residence, I don't believe the OP committed trespass. Perhaps I'm missing something?

Maybe you missed it. Many of us took issue with the OP following the driver home, and TRESPASSING to make his point. Maybe the law is different in your State, but here, based upon what I learned in Law School, entering someone else's premises without permission, to argue with them/teach them a lesson/elicit an apology is illegal and dumb. Ymmv.

"Quote:
Originally Posted by ahumblecycler View Post
If you opt to do this again (hopefully you will not be presented with that choice but drivers are ), I would advise you to not follow the person onto their personal property. I get why you did what you did:bike, but when you went onto her property without her permission, you put yourself in a bad position particularly since you mentioned your tone was angry and sarcastic.

I emphasize with you - most of us likely do - but you need to be careful as the "cyclist" what your actions are portraying to that driver (and then the driver's social and physical friends - people blab). I have "lectured" many drivers but only in public areas (typically the next stop light or stop sign). I do not follow a driver to a home though.

I'm not saying that count yourself lucky that the driver acted poorly and/or that you did not get hurt but do be aware how your response can be perceived with the potential of escalating the situation. Again I emphasize but we all need to be careful."






"Yup.

To the OP:
I am sorry you got cut off. We have all been there.

I have seen these confrontations escalate. I just smile and wave and say "have a nice day".

I would NEVER follow a person home and enter their property for the purposes of confronting/"educating" them. Nor should anyone. The only good that could ever come out of it would be a "you are so right, I am so sorry, you really convinced me. I will never do that again". How likely is that?"


If someone followed me home and pulled onto my property to educate me/elicit an apology, I would be unsettled."

[kookmyers]

Title: OT - "How dare they!"

Message:
Henry was out for a jog in his neighborhood. Henry noticed a pair of people that appeared to be going door to door discussing their beliefs. Henry doesn't share those beliefs so Henry blatantly ignored them when they smiled and said hi as he ran by. Henry even imagined trying to trip the person closest to him. He giggled at the thought of his action causing both of them to end up on the ground. Henry went home, got some water and stood admiring his gun collection in the den. A couple of minutes later his doorbell rang.
It was those same people! How dare they FOLLOW Henry HOME and TRESPASS on his property! Henry gave them a piece of his mind.
If Henry's grandma had answered the door and been told that she may or may not have access to something in the future, he would have had some fun, going even further than just yelling at them until he got to the sidewalk.
___________________________

This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, events and incidents are the products of the author's imagination. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental.

[93legendti]

THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; exception; violation; penalty; "process server" defined.
Sec. 552.

(1) Except as otherwise provided in subsection (2), a person shall not do any of the following:

(a) Enter the lands or premises of another without lawful authority after having been forbidden to do so by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

(b) Remain without lawful authority on the land or premises of another after being notified to depart by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

(c) Enter or remain without lawful authority on fenced or posted farm property of another person without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent. A request to leave the premises is not a necessary element for a violation of this subdivision. This subdivision does not apply to a person who is in the process of attempting, by the most direct route, to contact the owner or his or her lessee or agent to request consent.

Was the OP "forbidden" to enter the property?

Was the OP "notified to depart" the property?

Was the property "fenced or posted farm property"?

Under the law of your State of residence, I don't believe the OP committed trespass. Perhaps I'm missing something?

Research Tort action for Trespass.

[Vientomas]

Research Tort action for Trespass.

Research damages for trespass:

DENNIS DE LONG, Personal Representative of the ESTATE of FRANKLIN A. DENISON, SR., Plaintiff/Counter-Defendant-Appellant,
v.
PALM BEACH POLO HOLDINGS, INC, Defendant/Counter-Plaintiff-Appellee,
and
KK AGGREGATES, INC., Defendant/Counter-Plaintiff.
No. 284444
Court of Appeals of Michigan
June 24, 2010

IV. TRESPASS DAMAGES

Next, plaintiff argues that the trial court erred when it concluded that plaintiff's damages were too speculative for the three instances of trespasses committed by Polo. Plaintiff contends it is entitled to more than the $3 in nominal damages ultimately awarded. We again review "the trial court's findings of fact. . . for clear error and conduct a review de novo of [its] conclusions of law." Chapdelaine, 247 Mich.App. at 169. We also review an award of damages for clear error. Marshall Lasser, PC, 252 Mich.App. at 110. "Clear error exists where, after a review of the record, the reviewing court is left with a firm and definite conviction that a mistake has been made." Id.

Damages for a trespass cause of action can be summarized as follows:

One injured by the trespass of another is entitled to compensation for the injury on two levels. First, a plaintiff will be entitled to general damages for the injury. Dobbs, [Remedies], § 3.2, p 138. "[G]eneral damages are such as the law implies or presumes to have accrued from the wrong complained of." Bateman v Blake, 81 Mich. 227, 231; 45 N.W. 831 (1890). Second, a plaintiff may also be entitled to consequential or special damages if specifically pleaded and proved. Id. "Special damages are such as really took place, but are not implied by law." Id. [Kratze v Independent Order of Oddfellows, 442 Mich. 136, 148-149; 500 N.W.2d 115 (1993).]
General damages "generally are measured by the difference between the value of the land before the harm and the value after the harm." Szymanski v Brown, 221 Mich.App. 423, 430; 562 N.W.2d 212 (1997). This measure applies, however, only when the damage caused by the trespass is permanent or irreparable. Kratze, 442 Mich. at 149. "If the injury is reparable, or temporary, the proper measure of damages is the cost of restoration of the property to its original condition, if less than the value of the property before the injury." Id. (citation omitted). "However, there is no one fixed, inflexible rule for determining the appropriate sum that will compensate a landowner for the invasion of his interests. Rather, courts are to apply whatever approach is most appropriate to compensate the plaintiff for the loss incurred." Szymanski, 221 Mich.App. at 430 (citation omitted). A plaintiff "may recover additional damages for any injuries actually proved." Adams v Cleveland-Cliffs Iron Co, 237 Mich.App. 51, 73; 602 N.W.2d 215 (1999). However, nominal damages are appropriate, "even absent any proof of actual injury[.]" Id.

Here, the trial court concluded that plaintiff successfully proved three separate trespasses: the use of the unleased 2.02 acre parcel, the one-time removal of trees along the easement, and the tying up of boats along the 340 feet of unleased seawall. Our review of the record indicates that plaintiff did not prove the harm caused, or damages resulting from, any of the three trespasses. Plaintiff insists that it was entitled to the difference between the money Polo paid plaintiff under the Master Lease, and the rent Polo received from Westease during the term of the sublease. However, this figure does not reflect damage or harm to the property. As stated previously, this figure reflects Polo's unjust enrichment.

On appeal, plaintiff argues that it suffered a loss of the rental value of the additional 2.02 acre/340 feet parcel from the time the sublease began, November of 2002, through when it sold its interest in the property, May of 2006, totaling $95, 694.53. This claim, however, is purely hypothetical because plaintiff did not present any evidence at trial that it actually intended to rent or attempted to rent this parcel of land for that amount and was unable to do so because of the trespass. Plaintiff merely suggests on appeal that it could have made that amount of money had it chosen to rent the parcel. Absent a showing of actual damages, the trial court had little choice but to award only nominal damages. Adams, 237 Mich.App. at 67, 73; Kratze, 442 Mich. at 151 (reasoning that a trial court need not speculate as to the value of a plaintiff's damages resulting from a trespass). We are not "left with a firm and definite conviction that a mistake has been made" and find no clear error. Marshall Lasser, PC, 252 Mich.App. at 110.

I'd pay $3 to yell at some moron who cut me off.

[93legendti]

Moved the goal posts again, I see. In Michigan it is illegal, but damages can be low. (What about legal fees?) So, you feel vindicated.

I had a client just like you, once. He wanted to fight a $150 medical bill because it was the "principle" and he didn't "care about the cost". I said "I've been waiting my whole career for someone who didn't care about the cost and wanted to fight on principle. I'll need an upfront retainer of $5000 to fight for your principles". He said "let me get back to you" and left. Thankfully, he never got back to me.


I'd suggest that in addition to being illegal, the person can get a PPO against you, but considering your responses thus far, you'd respond "I would consider that a badge of honor".

So I will end your game this way:

You're right. Obviously. You believe you have a right to go anywhere you want and yell at whomever you want. That's your defense.

Good luck with that.