Calling the guys at Serotta: why doesn't the MeiVici have the ST bearing?

[Nick H.]

This is not an academic question - just had my Ottrot ST stolen and I'm wondering whether to replace it with a MeiVici. Comfort on long rides is my number one consideration.

So...you say on the "Model Comparison" page that the MeiVici is the smoothest Serotta ever, even though it doesn't have the bearing. Does the MeiVici really soak up the bumps so well that it doesn't need it? I seem to remember the Ottrot ST rear triangle could flex through 3 degrees vertically. Can the MeiVici do that?

I would also like to know whether there is any benefit to leaving out the bearing. If you built a MeiVici with a bearing, would it be a better bike, or a worse one? Or perhaps a more expensive one? Would it make sense to offer the bearing as an option to riders like me who value comfort above everything?

[Smiley]

The powers to be felt the ride to be better without the bearing so who am I to question them whom have logged more comparison miles then all of us combined. What you did not feel the Ottrott ST to be compliant enough for you ? I was told the Meivici was a more vertically compliant ride due to better tuning of the Carbone Fibre tubes.

Besides I do ride the most compliant bike ever built and has no equal in the Hors Categorie , what do u guys think a Meivici with a DKS rear end :banana: I would be all over that one in a ny minute :)

[mike p]

"Or perhaps a more expensive one?"

Is that possible?

Mike

[Nick H.]

Went to my dealer today. They have the first MeiVici made as their demo bike - and it has the bearing! I think it's the one pictured on the Serotta site. They also have a customer MeiVici which appears to have a bearing with the centre missing. An improved design apparently. Oh, and the MeiVici FAQ on the site says "the over-all vibration-damping quality of the all carbon MeiVici creates a ride that is amazingly smooth, with handling that’s secure yet nimble… all without the bearing utilized in the Ottrott ST". This is in answer to the question "Does the MeiVici carbon stay utilize the same bearing system as the Ottrott ST?" (A "yes" or a "no" might have been helpful guys!)

So I'm baffled. I hope Andrew can help me out here. It seems wierd that Serotta keeps the spec of its top-of-the-range model a secret. Still, as long as there's a long lead time I suppose it doesn't really matter.

[Jason E]

Perhaps it is not a bearing, but where the Carbon rear stays are bolted to the rear Drop-outs.

[Frustration]

I'm looking at one right now and the bearing is the same as on my Ottrot

[Nick H.]

So if my dealer is correct the one you're looking at must be an early one?

[Jason E]

Odd. I think we need a "Steve" or "Andrew" for this one.

[Brian Smith]

snipped...
W This is in answer to the question "Does the MeiVici carbon stay utilize the same bearing system as the Ottrott ST?" (A "yes" or a "no" might have been helpful guys!)

So I'm baffled. I hope Andrew can help me out here. It seems wierd that Serotta keeps the spec of its top-of-the-range model a secret. .

"no" it's not the same connection as the Ottrot.
Some Ottrots may have "lockout pucks" instead of bearings, but most opt
for the bearings.
Some early pre-carbon chainstay "Meivici"s may have been built with Ti chainstays and ST bearings; mine is like this.
Production Meivicis are equipped with a fancy fastener in a location similar to that of the Ottrot ST bearing's location.
Sometimes things not expressly written are not secrets. There's no secret about the makeup of the Meivici. There are subtle differences between the characters of the Ottrot and of the Meivici. Sometimes more can be communicated by saying less. Trumpeting the differences between the way one frame's seatstays are attatched to the dropouts as compared to another's was probably deemed an unclear note in the Meivici song. Let's see what Andrew says.

[Smiley]

You don't need an ST bearing in the Meivici , its compliant by virue of its carbone design.

[SPOKE]

four different levels of stiffness for the tubes that make up the main triangle and 3 or 4 different levels of stiffness for the chainstays. 2 or 3 different levels of stiffness for the seatstays and 3 different forks!!!! is the ride quality tunable on the Meivici??? you bet. you can have it plush or very stiff if you like. is the bearing pivot of the Ottrott ST necessary to get plush?? No. would it add a bit of additional verticle compliance?? yes, just a bit. can you make any sense of all the combinations of tubes and forks to get just what you want?? only if you have truely ridden (lived with) a bunch of different bikes out of carbon and/or mixed materials like the Ottrott ST. i also need to add that the wheels and tires that you choose will influence the ride too.
before you make any final decisions on tubing choices for either bike be sure to give Kelly Bedford a call at Serotta. he can help you sort it all out. :beer:

[Needs Help]

is the ride quality tunable on the Meivici??? you bet. you can have it plush or very stiff if you like.
Presumably that's true of an Ottrott as well. It seems to me that if the pivoting rear stay has any benefit, it should provide just as much of a benefit on a Meivici as an Ottrott.

[Nick H.]

Brian, thanks for all the detail. I know it's a bit pointless trying to describe ride quality in words, but can you tell me what a lockout puck is and why you would fit one to an Ottrot ST instead of a bearing?

Now, this fancy fastener on the MeiVici....I hesitate to ask what it does, because I probably wouldn't understand. So can I ask (a) does the MeiVici rear triangle flex through 3 degrees when you ride through a pothole, like the Ottrot does and (b) during a 100 mile day on poor surfaces, which bike will protect
you more from the vibes and shocks?

[Serotta_James]

Brian is right.
For clarification, the prototype or pre-production MeiVicis featured the same ST assembly as the Ottrott and Legend, but with a lockout puck instead of the bearing. Simply put, due to the increased stiffness level of the carbon chainstays used in the MeiVici, a bearing would not have the same effect as it does with the Ottrott or Legend. For production version of the MeiVici, we subsituted the ST/lockout puck assembly with a lighter, mechanically simpler dropout connection.
The reason the MeiVici is reported to ride slightly smoother than the Ottrott has to do with its greater ability to absorb high-frequency vibration due to the more carbon intensive construction. In actual fact, the MeiVici is vertically stiffer in the rear triangle than an Ottrott ST.

[SPOKE]

Presumably that's true of an Ottrott as well. It seems to me that if the pivoting rear stay has any benefit, it should provide just as much of a benefit on a Meivici as an Ottrott.


true for the Ottrott. just remember that the Ottrott is built with Ti Chainstays which changes the "feel" a bit.

just know that the all carbon Meivici will have a different "feel" than an Ottrott which uses Ti in the chainstays and seattube. Ti and Carbon transmit vibration a bit differently. most noticable is the high frequency type of road "buzz". hard, shape-edged hits like expansion joints aren/t too much different.

[Climb01742]

Brian is right.
For clarification, the prototype or pre-production MeiVicis featured the same ST assembly as the Ottrott and Legend, but with a lockout puck instead of the bearing. Simply put, due to the increased stiffness level of the carbon chainstays used in the MeiVici, a bearing would not have the same effect as it does with the Ottrott or Legend. For production version of the MeiVici, we subsituted the ST/lockout puck assembly with a lighter, mechanically simpler dropout connection.
The reason the MeiVici is reported to ride slightly smoother than the Ottrott has to do with its greater ability to absorb high-frequency vibration due to the more carbon intensive construction. In actual fact, the MeiVici is vertically stiffer in the rear triangle than an Ottrott ST.

james, perhaps you could also help with a question i have: many carbon frames soak up or mute high-frequency road chatter, but one area where no carbon frame i've owned or ridden has done a great job is dealing with big jolts from the road, like those generated from badly broken pavement or potholes. in those conditions, metal frames seem to do better. in researching/designing the meivici, did ya'll do any particular work in that area...how to help a carbon frame better deal with big shocks/hits? thanks in advance.

[FlaRider]

In your opinion, does the Meivici ride "better" than the Ottrott ST? Apologies if this is a loaded question. However, I have been trying to rationalize the purchase of a Meivici for months and keep wondering whether I will be disappointed when I compare it to my beloved Ottrott. Many thanks.

P.S. Please feel free to PM me if you wish.

[Serotta_James]

James,
The ability of the MeiVici, or any bike, to absorb large shocks has to do with the amount of overall vertical compliance afforded by the frameset.
One of the beautiful things about doing what we do is that choosing a tubeset that isn't too stiff and thereby allows the bike to react well to bigger hits.
I suspect that most carbon bikes are far stiffer in the front end than comparable metal-framed bikes. This would be especially true for carbon bikes with fully molded front end sections.
I am generalizing, of course.

[SPOKE]

In your opinion, does the Meivici ride "better" than the Ottrott ST? Apologies if this is a loaded question. However, I have been trying to rationalize the purchase of a Meivici for months and keep wondering whether I will be disappointed when I compare it to my beloved Ottrott. Many thanks.

P.S. Please feel free to PM me if you wish.


that always gets asked. the correction answer is.....both frame sets can be "tuned" to meet a wide variety of ride qualities. you have to be the one that defines "better". i happen to like bikes that are a bit on the "stiff" side. but i ride on some of the best roads in the country so i can get a way with a frame set built this way.
what i can tell you is my Mevici is about 1.5 lbs lighter than my Ottrott ST. at least a 1/2 pound is due to the wheels which also has a tremendous influence on the ride of the bike.
my best answer to the "better" question is... one isn't better than the other. just different. i really like them both. if i did a bunch of century rides or was traveling someplace where the roads are not as nice i would pick the Ottrott ST because it handles the sharp-edged bumps better. by the way, both frame sets were built to be very stiff even though i only weigh 170lbs.
if you can define what "better" means to you then the folks at Serotta can help you make the final choice. i'll even be glad to help too.

[Serotta_James]

I've had the unique experience of facilitating many test rides this year. In many of those instances, some riders have had the chance to ride MeiVici and Ottrott back to back. Of those, I'd say slightly more than half of the riders report prefering the ride quality of the MeiVici to the Ottrott.
Remember that our goal with the MeiVici project was to develop a full carbon bike with custom capability and ride quality very similar to the Ottrott.

[Skrawny]

I'm one of those guys that James is talking about.
I have been fortunate enough to ride at least 60 miles each on the Ottrott ST, Meivici, Legend ST and Legend Ti (which I own). All of the bikes had top of the line gruppos, although the wheels were different. I rode these all on routes that I know very well. All bikes were in perfect tune. I was in much better shape when I rode the Ottrott, though.

I like to climb, and I climbed best on the Meivici, hands down.
I was in the same gearing as my Legend, but I noticed myself seated and easily spinning in sections that required standing on my Legend Ti. I am not a big rider and cannot put down a lot of watts, but I noticed no real difference in stiffness between the frames. I'm guessing I probably climbed better on the Meivici because of lighter weight. I felt very good climbing in the Ottrott as well, however.

The high frequency buzz was most dampened by the Meivici, followed by the Ottrott, the Legend ST, then my Legend Ti. The big jolts were marginally handled better by the Ottrott over the Meivici (but I might be imagining this difference). In the Legends, the ST smoothed out the big jolts a little better than the Ti, but they didn't seem better then the O or the M.

The most comfortable ride was the Ottrott. I have become a fan of the ST seatstay and I am convinced I can feel a difference in maneuverability, especially in the twisty downhills (although others may disagree (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=248048&postcount=12) ).

Overall my most enjoyable ride was on the Sour Apple Ottrott (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=17504), although -to be fair- I was in much better shape when riding the Ottrott then when riding the Meivici. When I get my next bike it will be an Ottrott ST... (James: DARN YOU AND YOUR DEMOS!!!!)

-s


NB- all of these bikes are orders of magnitude better in all respects than my old alu Specialized!

[djcwardog]

Where does the Ottrott with an all-Ti rear triangle fit in here? It has no bearing either... At 210 lbs and willing to pound big gears, I am thinking that this is the answer for me. Are those Ti seat stays tuned and available in differing stiffness levels like the carbon? The frame I am looking at is an Ottrott 59cm, classic (horiz top tube), stock geometry. A call to Serotta revealed that it has 8.5 tubing and a 43mm front fork. A good entree into this rare air - Ottrott riders. How does Ottrott (non ST) fit in with the Nove? I demo-rode a stock Nove from Spokes, Alexandria, VA last year - was very nice!

[SPOKE]

Where does the Ottrott with an all-Ti rear triangle fit in here? It has no bearing either... At 210 lbs and willing to pound big gears, I am thinking that this is the answer for me. Are those Ti seat stays tuned and available in differing stiffness levels like the carbon? The frame I am looking at is an Ottrott 59cm, classic (horiz top tube), stock geometry. A call to Serotta revealed that it has 8.5 tubing and a 43mm front fork. A good entree into this rare air - Ottrott riders. How does Ottrott (non ST) fit in with the Nove? I demo-rode a stock Nove from Spokes, Alexandria, VA last year - was very nice!

if the frame was built with the oversize chain stays. if so then i'd say you'd most likely be happy with it. the OS chain stays can be either a single bend or "S" bend style.