Caroline Mani can't find a sponsor. [Archive]

Bruce K

07-25-2017, 08:08 PM

This has nothing to do with whether Caroline has a job or not outside of racing. I don't think that is even her issue.

She, and others working with her, have been trying to get a program funded since Worlds that would allow her to do a full Workd Cup season plus selected US races as well.

This kind of effort takes a large sum of money.

The GoFundMe effort is hoping to allow her to be able to bare bones a US domestic effort plus defend her French title. The lack of racing in Europe will make it harder for her to get back to the podium at Worlds on this "scrape by" scenario.

Cross is financially very different from road. Travel is virtually every week and on at least 2 continents. Generally there are full sets of equipment staged on both ends, plus spares, vehicles, staff, etc.

What she is trying to do is not easy. Give the woman a little respect.

BK

e-RICHIE

07-25-2017, 08:08 PM

I have a hard time believing a top ten men's elite cross racer would run into the same funding challenges.

There are probably four at most who make a living in the states. And by that, I mean enough to span a year not a season. The rest - it's smoke and mirrors, the CX equivalent of chasing the 12K dream as a D3 rider on the road. Sadly, all of this has always been the reality. In Belgium, or Holland, I don't know. Domestically, this is the status quo.

I also have a low opinion of GoFundMe ordeals outside of the medical bill strained, or similar. If anything, it's an act of desperation to, hopefully, span some time. But it runs out, it doesn't deliver you to where you wanted to be in the first place.

I'm shocked Mani doesn't have it all locked down by July. If someone broke a contract or reneged, that's different. But to wait 5-6 weeks before the racing begins, then huh?!

fiamme red

07-25-2017, 08:25 PM

I was supposed to be in contract with my racing team until July 2018 and at the end of November 2017 my management stopped providing any and ALL support. I had no bikes, no wheels, no equipment, no mechanic, no travel, no team kit and no income. The end of my season was stressful, hectic and humiliating, to say the least. I had to decide how I was going to finish the remainder of the cyclocross season on my own. Thankfully with the help of family, friends, the French federation and an amazing gesture from Planète Vélo Limoges I was able to continue to race and finish top 10 in the world.I guess she means November 2016? :confused:

ColonelJLloyd

07-25-2017, 11:18 PM

But it runs out, it doesn't deliver you to where you wanted to be in the first place.

Agreed. By and large it's a Band-Aid that rarely targets the source.

FlashUNC

07-26-2017, 12:15 AM

There are probably four at most who make a living in the states. And by that, I mean enough to span a year not a season. The rest - it's smoke and mirrors, the CX equivalent of chasing the 12K dream as a D3 rider on the road. Sadly, all of this has always been the reality. In Belgium, or Holland, I don't know. Domestically, this is the status quo.

I also have a low opinion of GoFundMe ordeals outside of the medical bill strained, or similar. If anything, it's an act of desperation to, hopefully, span some time. But it runs out, it doesn't deliver you to where you wanted to be in the first place.

I'm shocked Mani doesn't have it all locked down by July. If someone broke a contract or reneged, that's different. But to wait 5-6 weeks before the racing begins, then huh?!

I was referring primarily to the European scene, given she's consistently in the top 10-15 places at worlds. But your point on the domestic scene is some great perspective.

I have a hard time believing someone of her pedigree on the men's side would be throwing out GoFundMes to make a race schedule work.

CunegoFan

07-26-2017, 06:37 AM

I have a hard time believing a top ten men's elite cross racer would run into the same funding challenges.

:rolleyes:

The white patriarchy must be upset she isn't pregnant and in the kitchen.

Joachim

07-26-2017, 06:49 AM

There are probably four at most who make a living in the states. And by that, I mean enough to span a year not a season. The rest - it's smoke and mirrors, the CX equivalent of chasing the 12K dream as a D3 rider on the road. Sadly, all of this has always been the reality. In Belgium, or Holland, I don't know. Domestically, this is the status quo.

I also have a low opinion of GoFundMe ordeals outside of the medical bill strained, or similar. If anything, it's an act of desperation to, hopefully, span some time. But it runs out, it doesn't deliver you to where you wanted to be in the first place.

I'm shocked Mani doesn't have it all locked down by July. If someone broke a contract or reneged, that's different. But to wait 5-6 weeks before the racing begins, then huh?!

Has always been the case in Belgium. In 1996 we were offered minimum wage (which was legally required) of 40000 Belgian franc per month, $1300. Then we had to give each month 10000-15000 francs back to the team. And that was the dream. Chasing it was even worse.

oldpotatoe

07-26-2017, 06:59 AM

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder931/61431931.jpg

Well, away from this forum, 'cross in the US is a teeny, tiny segment and women's cross smaller still..even compared to road racing, which is also tiny in the US. I wish her much luck, regardless of how she tries to get the $.

For others, if you don't like GoFundMe, don't contribute..:)

bicycletricycle

07-26-2017, 07:32 AM

I have a hard time believing a top ten men's elite cross racer would run into the same funding challenges.

I am not sure how true your statement is, I do not follow the availability of funding for professional cyclocross racers. However, the persistent disparity between the popularity (and availability of funding) of male and female sports would certainly make this plausible. Assuming that it is true, what do you think your comment means? Pointing out a disparity between the sexes is easy (sometimes inflammatory), trying to understand why it exists is much more difficult.

Just curious, do you have a larger point? Or are you just pointing out a fact about the differences between the availability of funding for male and female athletes without some kind of larger agenda?

It seems to me that when people say something like this they are usually trying to imply some sort of injustice without doing the work of explaining how it is one. I think that it may be dangerous to just assume that any difference between groups of people is automatically some sort of injustice.

I do hope that she does find a way to fund her dreams.

chiasticon

07-26-2017, 08:12 AM

I have a hard time believing someone of her pedigree on the men's side would be throwing out GoFundMes to make a race schedule work.agreed. but I don't think it's as simple as just a male vs female thing either.

shovelhd

07-26-2017, 08:32 AM

agreed. but I don't think it's as simple as just a male vs female thing either.

It's not. See what E-Richie wrote. He's right, and he knows firsthand.

e-RICHIE

07-26-2017, 08:44 AM

For others, if you don't like GoFundMe, don't contribute..:)

I'd be more likely to consider these ordeals if they were tax deductible, but most are set up as gifts / donations only. They're not even a loan!

Bruce K

07-26-2017, 08:49 AM

You could just sign her! :D

It has clearly been a long, difficult struggle with lots of stuff we don't fully know. But her narrative should fill in some of the pieces.

So, yes, this is a last, desperate effort to salvage her season.

I have contributed. Hopefully enough folks will do that she gets the opportunity to race enough to qualify for French Nationals and Worlds.

BK

FlashUNC

07-26-2017, 08:57 AM

Well, away from this forum, 'cross in the US is a teeny, tiny segment and women's cross smaller still..even compared to road racing, which is also tiny in the US. I wish her much luck, regardless of how she tries to get the $.

For others, if you don't like GoFundMe, don't contribute..:)

It was more the announcement that he doesn't know someone in a sport he doesn't follow. Uh, yeah. It's like someone saying they don't follow the NBA and don't know who Carmelo Anthony is. Well, of course you wouldn't if you're not following the sport.

saab2000

07-26-2017, 09:02 AM

The NBA is an enormous business and generates huge revenue. Women's cyclocross is a niche within a niche within a niche. As unfortunate as that is for these great athletes, it's barely above a hobby for all but the very top racers.

I'm guessing that even for the men, funding drops to very minimal levels outside the top 25 riders. I would bet the that the top 25 (possibly less) control 80% of all the real funding in cyclocross. For everyone else it's a labor of love.

FlashUNC

07-26-2017, 09:05 AM

I am not sure how true your statement is, I do not follow the availability of funding for professional cyclocross racers. However, the persistent disparity between the popularity (and availability of funding) of male and female sports would certainly make this plausible. Assuming that it is true, what do you think your comment means? Pointing out a disparity between the sexes is easy (sometimes inflammatory), trying to understand why it exists is much more difficult.

Just curious, do you have a larger point? Or are you just pointing out a fact about the differences between the availability of funding for male and female athletes without some kind of larger agenda?

It seems to me that when people say something like this they are usually trying to imply some sort of injustice without doing the work of explaining how it is one. I think that it may be dangerous to just assume that any difference between groups of people is automatically some sort of injustice.

I do hope that she does find a way to fund her dreams.

Just another brick in the wall of the pay and funding gap across men's and women's sports. It ain't just cyclocross.

peanutgallery

07-26-2017, 09:32 AM

Off and on over the years, I have worked with a women's "Pro" team. A good friend was the organizer/sportif and pulled together by hook/crook/pocket lint/empty promises a team that competed towards the sharper end of the grid in the domestic women's scene. One, sometimes 2 riders might have received a $5000 salary. Everyone got the use of a bike or 2 and wheels to use, not keep - and travel expenses/entry fees to about 10-15 pinpointed races per year. The meager winnings were split appropriately and the part-time staff got a few dollars and usually swag.

As far as the women on the team, if it wasn't for the financial web created by parents, boyfriends, husbands, full-time (and realllllly flexible) jobs or family members - not one racer would have been able to participate in the junket that was created. The mens side is only slightly better, but the prize list is elevated a bit. Being a niche, within a niche - I assume cyclocross is way worse

E-richie is 100% correct about the smoke and mirrors. The majority of guys and gals that participate in the domestic scene are extremely driven by passion and driven to somehow make things work - financial repercussions be damned. They do what it takes and sacrifice to find the time to train and take proper care of themselves. Its a tough gig. Good luck to Caroline Mani, takes a lot to chase the dream

bicycletricycle

07-26-2017, 10:03 AM

Just another brick in the wall of the pay and funding gap across men's and women's sports. It ain't just cyclocross.

Pointing at a pay gap is not the same as proving a systemic unfair disparity in wages based on gender.

FlashUNC

07-26-2017, 10:16 AM

Pointing at a pay gap is not the same as proving a systemic unfair disparity in wages based on gender.

US Women's World Champion Hockey team.

US Women World Cup winning soccer team.

Payouts in prize money on the men's and women's tennis circuit.

Cycling can't even bother to have women's peer races to the men's side. Never mind prize money or pay.

Seems pretty systemic.

93legendti

07-26-2017, 10:19 AM

I commend her and wish her all the best.

I admire the people who feel passionately about her career and our stepping up and gifting generously to her gofundme project.

John H.

07-26-2017, 10:39 AM

I have heard that Caroline Mani is not the most popular rider with her fellow racers.
Maybe that also extends to people in the bike biz?

pncguy

07-26-2017, 10:39 AM

I am not sure how true your statement is, I do not follow the availability of funding for professional cyclocross racers. However, the persistent disparity between the popularity (and availability of funding) of male and female sports would certainly make this plausible. Assuming that it is true, what do you think your comment means? Pointing out a disparity between the sexes is easy (sometimes inflammatory), trying to understand why it exists is much more difficult.

Just curious, do you have a larger point? Or are you just pointing out a fact about the differences between the availability of funding for male and female athletes without some kind of larger agenda?

It seems to me that when people say something like this they are usually trying to imply some sort of injustice without doing the work of explaining how it is one. I think that it may be dangerous to just assume that any difference between groups of people is automatically some sort of injustice.

I do hope that she does find a way to fund her dreams.

Not trying to be a fanboy of biketrike here, but I have noticed that your/his comments on this forum frequently are well considered, calm, careful, and challenging. I wish more people in the world would discuss things like you/he do/es.

bicycletricycle

07-26-2017, 10:53 AM

If these sports get less fan attention why should they get equal pay? Sport is an entertainment business, more eyeballs more money.

US Women's World Champion Hockey team.

US Women World Cup winning soccer team.

Payouts in prize money on the men's and women's tennis circuit.

Cycling can't even bother to have women's peer races to the men's side. Never mind prize money or pay.

Seems pretty systemic.

fiamme red

07-26-2017, 10:57 AM

Sorry, but this is not quite persuasive to me:

Cycling and especially cyclocross is not only my passion in life, it has become my way of living. It helps me to be who I am, to feel alive every morning when I wake up, to challenge myself, to be a better person.

I want to continue to be on more podiums, challenge myself even more, interact with the supporters, the fans, share my love and passion for the sport with all of you.

I know you all have a dream deep inside of you and I hope my determination can help you to go after your own dreams.

The season begins early September, so I'm asking for your help to be able to travel to races, continue to race my bike as hard as I can, share my experience, and give back to the sport I love so much.Asking for hand-outs from strangers in order to pursue one's dreams (and offering nothing in return) is laughable. I guess that the satisfaction of seeing her on the podium again and the inspiration to follow their own dreams is enough of a reward for those who contribute on GoFundMe?

What she says about wanting to give back to the sport, share her love and passion for it, and interact with her fans is rather intangible. What does that mean, signing autographs?

Bruce K

07-26-2017, 11:14 AM

Gee, John H, where have you "heard" that?

Do you know her or understand her situation?

Go back and re-read the fraction of the story that is public.

Have you ever tried to find sponsorship for anything? Richie, and some of the other posters understand just how difficult it is to find and keep sponsors, and in today's economy how hard it is to replace one.

When her situation with Raleigh-Clement fell apart she was their "standard bearer"/most successful athlete and there were folks who stepped up and helped get her to Worlds.

The target amount will get her through a domestic season as a one-woman independent racer with virtually no support for a mechanic, training bikes, etc. it will be a totally pay as she goes like every club racer but at a pro level.

This will be a very difficult year, even if this works.

BK

shovelhd

07-26-2017, 11:15 AM

Cycling can't even bother to have women's peer races to the men's side. Never mind prize money or pay.

Define "peer races". Do you mean equal time and/or equal distance?

93KgBike

07-26-2017, 12:19 PM

It seems to me that professional sports are businesses first, for both the competitors and the sponsors. Perhaps she and her cohort should go fund a demonstration tour or something. I don't have a problem with her financing a pro-tour season with donations, but I am betting that race sponsors would prefer as few public-financed riders in the field as possible.

I wish her all the luck.

FlashUNC

07-26-2017, 01:34 PM

Define "peer races". Do you mean equal time and/or equal distance?

Not necessarily, but I'm baffled why there isn't, especially for the classics, a women's race run the same weekend as the men. What's the reasoning behind not running, say, a women's Roubaix on a saturday and the men on Sunday?

You can tweak time and distsance and all that jazz.

Seems even easier with the Grand Tours. You have this roving race structure for a month, and all you can find is either a crit around the Champs or a run up Izoard? C'mon.

It's the UCI as much as the race promoters. Just disappointing all around, particularly when you have races on par, like the Olympics road race, the women's race ends up being every bit as compelling as the men's.

FlashUNC

07-26-2017, 01:38 PM

If these sports get less fan attention why should they get equal pay? Sport is an entertainment business, more eyeballs more money.

So you're arguing the women's world cup soccer team -- which wins the thing regularly and is hugely popular here in the States -- should get fewer resources than the men, who never even get close to a semi-final round, much less winning the thing? If you're judging it as an entertainment business, they're a heckuva lot more valuable than the men's team, yet still get paid less and have to play on inferior surfaces.

It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle. No one watches because no one can watch, so it becomes the justification for not investing further in it and growing a fanbase.

My argument systemically is the bodies involved in promoting sport -- whatever it may be -- do a dis-service to a decent segment of their long-term potential growth by using this kind of same lazy tautology to avoid investing. The UCI shouldn't care who's riding the bike or watching the racing, as long as someone's doing it. The USOC should be supporting the teams that show promise and success, same with USA Soccer or anyone else.

So its a macro problem that creates all these knock-on downstream effects, like Caroline Mani having to gofundme a racing season.

chiasticon

07-26-2017, 03:09 PM

US Women's World Champion Hockey team.

US Women World Cup winning soccer team.

Payouts in prize money on the men's and women's tennis circuit.

Cycling can't even bother to have women's peer races to the men's side. Never mind prize money or pay.

Seems pretty systemic.well cyclocross is one exception to these though. lots of USAC events are equal payout and have been for some time. UCI C1/C2 events are equal payouts this year. and women's payouts for world cups have been bumped up.

my question is what exactly happened with Mani that she didn't start looking into this and asking for help until now? clearly, she had the floor pulled from under her last season, so why wait until now? unless something fell through again...?

it's strange that she can't find a team, for sure, given her talent. but it could all come down to timing of when she found out she needed to pursue it (or when she decided to) versus contracts other teams already had set in place for the upcoming season(s). can't just throw you onto a team generally, unless they get more money or someone else leaves. and if the team's full and preparations are underway, that's how it goes... sucks, but that may just be all there is to this. of course, I'm totally guessing...

bicycletricycle

07-26-2017, 03:55 PM

I think that the argument for equal funding in publically funded sports can be made pretty strongly. Much more strongly than in commercial sport.

Lack of viewing / lack of funding is a self perpetuating cycle, however, self perpetuating cycles are neither good nor bad. Like the chicken and the egg they develop slowly over time, well adapted to their environments with seemingly nobody at the wheel.

The increased funding and viewership of male sports is not the result of some simple conspiracy or arbitrary decision. It is the result of all of history leading up to this point in time. Perhaps this perpetuating cycle does need to be updated, the times are changing.

Who has the authority to claim that it is fundamentally wrong?

We all do, by voting with our eyeballs/wallet.

However, if people continue to like/watch male sports more than female sports I don't see how anyone can claim that this is unfair or incorrect.

Well a person who dislikes their culture because they only see what is wrong with it and feels entitled to tell everyone about how they think everyone else in the world needs to act can/will tell people what to do.

So you're arguing the women's world cup soccer team -- which wins the thing regularly and is hugely popular here in the States -- should get fewer resources than the men, who never even get close to a semi-final round, much less winning the thing? If you're judging it as an entertainment business, they're a heckuva lot more valuable than the men's team, yet still get paid less and have to play on inferior surfaces.

It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle. No one watches because no one can watch, so it becomes the justification for not investing further in it and growing a fanbase.

My argument systemically is the bodies involved in promoting sport -- whatever it may be -- do a dis-service to a decent segment of their long-term potential growth by using this kind of same lazy tautology to avoid investing. The UCI shouldn't care who's riding the bike or watching the racing, as long as someone's doing it. The USOC should be supporting the teams that show promise and success, same with USA Soccer or anyone else.

So its a macro problem that creates all these knock-on downstream effects, like Caroline Mani having to gofundme a racing season.

John H.

07-26-2017, 05:09 PM

I have heard it from other athletes who have competed against her.

You are making assumptions about me- and you know nothing about me.

I have actually ridden for teams of decent and meager budget, started teams, and worked in sports director capacity for cycling teams.

Also, my wife has started and run teams and worked for top level US road teams for several years.

Let's say that I am more versed in cycling teams and women's cycling than the average bear.

After all of that, I would never want to start or run a cycling team again.

I do know how hard it is to find sponsors. Super hard.

I also know that is can be hard even to get existing sponsors to pay up.

What I mean by that is that a sponsor commits to something- Say 100k, in 4 25k payments throughout the year at 3 month intervals.
They make the 1st one, late on the 2nd one, you might never see the 3rd and 4th.

So the team ends up giving the riders equipment in lieu of salary and/or expenses owed, and the team ends up losing money by the end of the year.
No more team. Vicious cycle.

You seem to feel strongly about her situation. I hope that you make a nice donation to her go fund me campaign.

Gee, John H, where have you "heard" that?

Do you know her or understand her situation?

Go back and re-read the fraction of the story that is public.

Have you ever tried to find sponsorship for anything? Richie, and some of the other posters understand just how difficult it is to find and keep sponsors, and in today's economy how hard it is to replace one.

When her situation with Raleigh-Clement fell apart she was their "standard bearer"/most successful athlete and there were folks who stepped up and helped get her to Worlds.

The target amount will get her through a domestic season as a one-woman independent racer with virtually no support for a mechanic, training bikes, etc. it will be a totally pay as she goes like every club racer but at a pro level.

This will be a very difficult year, even if this works.

BK

FlashUNC

07-26-2017, 06:41 PM

I think that the argument for equal funding in publically funded sports can be made pretty strongly. Much more strongly than in commercial sport.

Lack of viewing / lack of funding is a self perpetuating cycle, however, self perpetuating cycles are neither good nor bad. Like the chicken and the egg they develop slowly over time, well adapted to their environments with seemingly nobody at the wheel.

The increased funding and viewership of male sports is not the result of some simple conspiracy or arbitrary decision. It is the result of all of history leading up to this point in time. Perhaps this perpetuating cycle does need to be updated, the times are changing.

Who has the authority to claim that it is fundamentally wrong?

We all do, by voting with our eyeballs/wallet.

However, if people continue to like/watch male sports more than female sports I don't see how anyone can claim that this is unfair or incorrect.

Well a person who dislikes their culture because they only see what is wrong with it and feels entitled to tell everyone about how they think everyone else in the world needs to act can/will tell people what to do.

It is far easier to watch men's racing than women's racing, even as infuriating as access to the men's races may be. Tough to get fans when you can't even see the product. For example, the marquee women's stage race on the calendar is run right next to the freakin' Tour de France. In Italy. Brilliant.

You're arguing this is happening in some kind of vacuum with the invisible hand of the marketplace putting these kinds of structures in place, when there are actors who could be doing much more to make a commitment that races that involve the other 50% of the global population might also make for compelling viewing. Who's going to argue against watching more bike racing? The Tour de Flanders women's race this year was won by an American for pete's sake, in a sprint arguably more exciting than even Gilbert's escape. But its tough ot make Coryn Rivera the next American cycling star when you gotta "watch" the race on Twitter updates.

Bruce K

07-26-2017, 07:13 PM

I did donate and probably will do more when I can.

As she stated, she was contracted through the end of this season. Things clearly went south. She, and others have been working to try and build a workable situation with no luck.

If you have that kind of experience, I would think you would be a bit more understanding.

She is a very driven individual but few women in the current US CX scene can beat her when she is in form and none have the same success at Worlds.

And yes, she is a friend so I am a little defensive when folks take shots at her.

BK

Llewellyn

07-26-2017, 07:39 PM

On my list of donating priorities a sportsperson would be very, very close to the bottom. But that's just me. If they want to pursue their chosen sport then let them pay for it - whatever it is.

bicycletricycle

07-26-2017, 08:01 PM

The "market" was and never will be a vacuum and the action of the invisible hand is blocked by structures, obviously. Some of these structures are old, some newer. Most of these structures are part of the culture and are hard to change because they represent real preferences and/or some truth about reality.

It seems likely to me that equally paid female cyclists participating in equally elaborate races with equal press exposure would get more attention. It also seems to me that the same thing could be said for almost any other group, senior citizen tour de france, special tour de france, displaced people tour de france, people of color tour de france, tour de france for the not especially athletic (possibly the best reality show ever?), transgender tour de france, tour de france for the veterans, etc. Any group you care to identify could benefit from a hi paying cycling career with worldwide TV coverage.

The question to me is not if it would be possible to make something more popular but why do it and who decides. I would prefer a route that avoids tyranny, perhaps we could distribute the decision making to the people?

Every single one of us can decide by supporting a sport or cause that we like or believe in with whatever attention we can give it. That support can build over time into real change.

Would I like to have access to more bike racing, Yes.

Would I like more/easier access to female bicycle racing, Yes.

Do I think that means the current level of sponsorship and support for female racing is wrong or unjust, No. (possibly in state sponsored efforts or in cases of direct and overt sexism) If I thought that everything that I wanted but was difficult to access was part of some larger conspiracy of injustice............ I would be really grumpy.

I actually think the most fair thing would just be for Women to compete with Men. Would that not be the most equal? If equality is the real goal here than just go for a level playing field. Equality of opportunity not equality of outcome (we are supposed to believe in equality of opportunity - communists believe in equality of outcome). If equality of outcome is the goal we would have to pay anyone who claimed to be a bicycle racer the same amount and then force people to watch the races while making sure that everyone wins in every race an equal amount. Sounds like an exaggeration but it is the logical conclusion to that line of thinking.

Is it unfair that women and men have different physiques and are inherently unequal when competing in physical sports? Is it unfair that people enjoy watching one thing rather than another? I don't see how one can answer yes or no to these questions, even if we could decide, who do we send the complaint to?

In the end sponsors pay the bills, they pay for what people watch. What people watch is a product of history, billions of peoples decisions and desires. It is easy to point out all the faults in history and society, really easy. What I am saying is the structures that are unfair are also the very structure of reality itself. If we want to make a change then it is up to us to do so directly by changing our own actions.

P.S.
If the female 50% percent demanded female cycling they would get it. Saying they would demand it if they already had access to it and grown to like it and thus should be provided with it based on this presumption is a little too Nostradamus for me.

Rant over :)

It is far easier to watch men's racing than women's racing, even as infuriating as access to the men's races may be. Tough to get fans when you can't even see the product. For example, the marquee women's stage race on the calendar is run right next to the freakin' Tour de France. In Italy. Brilliant.

You're arguing this is happening in some kind of vacuum with the invisible hand of the marketplace putting these kinds of structures in place, when there are actors who could be doing much more to make a commitment that races that involve the other 50% of the global population might also make for compelling viewing. Who's going to argue against watching more bike racing? The Tour de Flanders women's race this year was won by an American for pete's sake, in a sprint arguably more exciting than even Gilbert's escape. But its tough ot make Coryn Rivera the next American cycling star when you gotta "watch" the race on Twitter updates.

BobC

07-26-2017, 08:24 PM

So you're arguing the women's world cup soccer team -- which wins the thing regularly and is hugely popular here in the States -- should get fewer resources than the men, who never even get close to a semi-final round, much less winning the thing? If you're judging it as an entertainment business, they're a heckuva lot more valuable than the men's team, yet still get paid less and have to play on inferior surfaces.

It becomes a self-perpetuating cycle. No one watches because no one can watch, so it becomes the justification for not investing further in it and growing a fanbase.

I agree with much of what you say but comparing the USMNT & USWNT is a bit of oranges & apples.
1. I think you will see much more equality (i.e., other women's national teams reach equality with the USWNT) and that is a great thing. Historically the USWNT leverage the women's college talent pool but other countries lacked any women's soccer infrastructure. that is changing. As a result, the overall level of women's soccer will improve & the matches will become far more competitive. That is a good thing. But you won't see the USWNT dominate as much as in years past. Again that is a good thing.
2. The men's game is far more mature & developed. The USMNT is undoubtedly on an upward arc as it starts to catch up to the rest of the world. To compare results between the USMNT & USWNT is a bit unfair. The depth & level of play is so different.
3. The latest women's cup last summer WAS played on turf. But that was because Canada stepped in when no one else did to host it. there was a distinct lack of interest in hosting the Women's world cup. same cannot be said for the men's side, where millions of dollars in bribes flow like water. Both FIFA's men's & women's games have significant issues -- they just differ greatly in what their issues are.

Just my 2 cents.

John H.

07-26-2017, 08:25 PM

The truth is that racing in the US is on life support- Road, cross, track, mtb- men, women, whatever.

So finding a sponsor during this time is really tough- especially sponsors within the bike industry.

I did donate and probably will do more when I can.

As she stated, she was contracted through the end of this season. Things clearly went south. She, and others have been working to try and build a workable situation with no luck.

If you have that kind of experience, I would think you would be a bit more understanding.

She is a very driven individual but few women in the current US CX scene can beat her when she is in form and none have the same success at Worlds.

And yes, she is a friend so I am a little defensive when folks take shots at her.

BK

peanutgallery

07-26-2017, 08:57 PM

Not to be a smarta$$, but this really means nothing in the scheme of things as the ability to pedal a bike well does not translate to financial success or stability. Unfortunate but true, quickest route to being a barista. Taking the money from the crowd funding and taking golf lessons would be a much better investment. Or go back to school, acquire a skill for a flexible job that pays well...then go race. Unfortunately...that's the market. It blows but that's the way it is. Mens cycling of any discipline might be a half a step behind it.

On the other side of the coin (from another niche sport), Dean Wilson rode MX for Red Bull KTM in 2015/2016, got hurt a bunch and was cut at the end of last season and was cut...unemployment. The dude is a hammer and a proven winner. For 2017 he invested is himself, trained, surfed couches, borrowed a year old bike and showed up at the first several supercrosses in a beat up van with a few friends to help him out. We're talking Privateer Island. He managed some great finishes and after a few months he is now Jason Anderson's teammate and riding a factory Husky after somebody was moved on. He's rolling better than ever and if you asked him he would probably tell you that the entire experience made him more focused and appreciative of his situation. He's also been know to rock a mtb pretty hard in his spare time

http://www.vitalmx.com/features/Trailblazing-with-Dean-Wilson,5279

http://www.motosport.com/motoblog/2017/Dean-Wilson-2017-Spring-Creek-MX-Race-Preview.jpg

She is a very driven individual but few women in the current US CX scene can beat her when she is in form and none have the same success at Worlds.

And yes, she is a friend so I am a little defensive when folks take shots at her.

BK

oldpotatoe

07-27-2017, 06:49 AM

The truth is that racing in the US is on life support- Road, cross, track, mtb- men, women, whatever.

So finding a sponsor during this time is really tough- especially sponsors within the bike industry.

I think this is as much of the reason as anything. 'Bike racing' in the US is really struggling, in spite of the 'crowds'(non paying) you might see on TV.

choke

07-27-2017, 04:54 PM

For example, the marquee women's stage race on the calendar is run right next to the freakin' Tour de France. In Italy. Brilliant. Here's a good analysis on why it's ran when it is - https://prowomenscycling.com/2016/07/05/giro-rosa-tour-de-france/

If you don't want to read it all, the sums things up; As an Italian race, with Italian sponsors, the race organisers are looking to maximise the Italian audience, and they do this really well. Traditionally, the Giro Rosa has been reported on by RAI, Italy’s national public broadcasting company (equivalent of the BBC) as part of their Tour de France reporting – a short 5-10 mins highlights during the live TdF show, between the end of the men’s race and before the analysis, and with the usual 40-60 mins long highlights shown straight after the men’s highlights. This brings in an enormous audience, who aren’t specifically “women’s cycling” fans – who are primarily fans of men’s racing, as well as the usual extra huge boost of numbers who only tune in for Grand Tours. It’s a great tactic for getting women’s bike racing in front of the biggest audience they can.
The Tour de Flanders women's race this year was won by an American for pete's sake, in a sprint arguably more exciting than even Gilbert's escape. But its tough ot make Coryn Rivera the next American cycling star when you gotta "watch" the race on Twitter updates.Actually the last 40k of the Women's Ronde was shown live...it was on the Ronde's Facebook page IIRC.

However, you're correct that it's very hard to watch any women's races. Some of the races in Holland and Belgium are shown live but Twitter updates are the norm for "watching" for the most part. The Giro Rosa for instance wasn't live, though it did have videos from multiple sources which were put out a few hours after the finish.

livingminimal

07-27-2017, 05:31 PM

The truth is that racing in the US is on life support- Road, cross, track, mtb- men, women, whatever.

So finding a sponsor during this time is really tough- especially sponsors within the bike industry.

This should have shut down the thread. This is what it comes down to.

I want to find a way to talk about the fact that America's most talented cyclocrosser has actually sat out the last couple of seasons and that its very likely that the process of doing the sponsorship bit and finding a team and having to commit may have played a role in that.

But if you know who that is, you probably know what Im talking about, and it needs no further discussion and is slightly speculative on my part.

Also, I think Caroline is awesome, but as others have said, when you have kids dying every day in Syria, water that's undrinkable in American cities, or homeless families on the street, this isn't something I can wrap my head around donating to.

choke

07-27-2017, 05:55 PM

I want to find a way to talk about the fact that America's most talented cyclocrosser has actually sat out the last couple of seasons and that its very likely that the process of doing the sponsorship bit and finding a team and having to commit may have played a role in that. Huh? :confused: Katie Compton has raced the last two seasons.

livingminimal

07-27-2017, 05:57 PM

Huh? :confused: Katie Compton has raced the last two seasons.

I think Cam Dodge has/d the potential to be a World Championship contender.

Your point is well taken though. Katie is definitely to date the best American Cyclocrosser ever. And it aint close.

e-RICHIE

07-27-2017, 07:11 PM

Huh? :confused: Katie Compton has raced the last two seasons.

She's one of the 3-4 I mentioned in my first post.

Bruce K

07-27-2017, 07:18 PM

I would also bet that being the French National Chsmpion would carry more weight in Europe than the US.

BK

e-RICHIE

07-27-2017, 07:34 PM

I would also bet that being the French National Chsmpion would carry more weight in Europe than the US.

BK

I wouldn't take that bet. The weight doesn't translate into dollars. Or euros.

Pelican

07-27-2017, 10:03 PM

I wouldn't take that bet. The weight doesn't translate into dollars. Or euros.

Brutal if true.

So how much money does it take to run a small cross team per season? I think House/RS are regional focused, and Caroline wants to run US Series, defend French National jersey and go to Worlds. Unless some cyclocross brand is willing to ante up, I don't see how this would work.

Bruce K

07-28-2017, 05:05 AM

Richie could correct me on any of this but, if she were to be able to do everything she wants, you would be talking about 2 full set-ups of equipment, one based here and one based in Europe.

For each location that would be 2 races bikes plus one training bike, about 7 sets of wheels, spare parts, plus large equipment for the mechanic (tents, work stands, pressure washers and such -tools travel).

Then add travel costs including hotels and food, and vehicle leases/rentals/purchases to get from the service course or airport to the venues.

And that would not even provide some sort of salary for her and a mechanic.

The GoFundMe target is not even half of what would be ideal for a complete World Cup season plus major US races. It is not even enough to do a full US season at her level with everything she would normally need.

It will cover her, by herself, needing lots of help/support from other sources at each venue, plus a lot of host housing on a limited US series of races to try and accumulate enough UCI points to get to Worlds on the French National team if she were unable to defend her title.

BK