Powermeter compatible bike computers which use coin cell batttery?

[Mark McM]

For years I have used, and been satisfied with, typical wireless bike computers that use lithium coin cell batteries. Sure, the battery(s) must be replaced occasionally (maybe once a year at best), but at least most computers give you adequate warning before the battery is dead.

I recently got a power meter, which as most do today, connects to a computer with ANT+. But I'm haven't found a decent ANT+ computer that doesn't need to be recharged often (every 10 hours or so, or about once or twice a week). I've used a (rechargeable battery) GPS bike computer in the past, but I found that I don't often have use for the GPS feature, and when I haven't stayed on top of the recharge schedule, its died in the middle of rides. With the coin cell computers, I can just jump on the bike and go without worrying about the computer lasting for the entire ride.

I suspect the biggest battery drains are the GPS, and possibly a backlight for some of the fancy color displays they sometimes put on these gadgets. But I don't need any of these. I did find one coin cell ANT+ computer, the Powertap Joule, but I found this computer did not have a well designed layout, and could not be configured for some of the features I desire.

So, are there any other bike computers with ANT+ compatibility that either don't use rechargeable batteries, or that can last most of a seaons on a single charge? GPS functionality is not necessity, although an altimeter would be nice.

[FlashUNC]

Can turn off GPS on the SRM PC8, extends the battery life on those quite a bit.

[shovelhd]

Right, but the PC8 does not use a user-serviceable battery. It must be recharged via the USB port, and replaced by SRM. It's never died on one of my rides though. I did a 7 hour one recently and the battery was only at 50%. I'm very pleased with my PC8.

[FlashUNC]

Right, but the PC8 does not use a user-serviceable battery. It must be recharged via the USB port, and replaced by SRM. It's never died on one of my rides though. I did a 7 hour one recently and the battery was only at 50%. I'm very pleased with my PC8.

True, but I'm hard pressed to think of a power meter that has the total combination of features the OP is looking for.

The PC8 checks at least what seem to be the more important boxes in that list.

[chiasticon]

I know it's not what you want to hear, but I'm just in the habit of charging the computer after every ride, same as with my lights. having the computer die wouldn't be the end of the world, but losing a light could be a big deal. I mean, I have to charge my phone once a day usually so it's not a huge deal to me. but is one more thing to worry about when getting ready or coming in from a ride.

[Mark McM]

I'm not against rechargeable batteries per se, but I'm looking for a unit which can go a long time (more than 30 or 40 hours) without some kind of battery servicing (recharge or replace).



(As an aside, I wonder what kind of bike computer Ultra Marathoners use - they often ride 20 or more hours a day, and sometimes several days straight.)

[shovelhd]

Well, the PC8 does have a USB charging/download port, and you could use an external lollipop power pack that would probably go 40 hours and add a few ounces of weight.

[shovelhd]

(As an aside, I wonder what kind of bike computer Ultra Marathoners use - they often ride 20 or more hours a day, and sometimes several days straight.)

I bet they use a power pack and swap computers daily, charging the backup in the chase vehicle.

[Mark McM]

I know it's not what you want to hear, but I'm just in the habit of charging the computer after every ride, same as with my lights. having the computer die wouldn't be the end of the world, but losing a light could be a big deal. I mean, I have to charge my phone once a day usually so it's not a huge deal to me. but is one more thing to worry about when getting ready or coming in from a ride.

What a sad world we live in today that we can't go to long or to far from our device recharging tethers (bike computers, cell phones, electric car chargers, etc.).

[shovelhd]

What a sad world we live in today that we can't go to long or to far from our device recharging tethers (bike computers, cell phones, electric car chargers, etc.).

Says the guy who wants a power meter :banana::)

[Mark McM]

Says the guy who wants a power meter :banana::)

But at least the battery in the power meter can last a year without recharging!

[foo_fighter]

The Lezyne GPS computers last 24hrs. I'm not sure if you can extend the battery by turning off GPS though.

[jruhlen1980]

I bet they use a power pack and swap computers daily, charging the backup in the chase vehicle.

Some computers (Wahoo, certain Garmins) can be charged in use.

[chiasticon]

(As an aside, I wonder what kind of bike computer Ultra Marathoners use - they often ride 20 or more hours a day, and sometimes several days straight.)a guy I ride with recently did the seattle to portland ride, and a number of 200+ miles rides this summer with this computer: http://www.brytonsport.com/products/rider530?lang=eng

he seems to like it, but I have zero experience with it. seeing it on his bike was the first I'd ever heard of it, in fact. claimed 33 hour battery life though. :cool:

[ptourkin]

Well, the PC8 does have a USB charging/download port, and you could use an external lollipop power pack that would probably go 40 hours and add a few ounces of weight.

I've recorded the whole Silver State 508 on my PC8 more than once ~40 hours. The PC8 battery is 1300 mAH and a lipstick battery pack is 3900. I get over 15 hours without charging no problem.

Everything else about the PC8 is 2013 technology though. We still do not have bluetooth, will never have any navigation and the Wifi upload is deadly slow and can't be used in a random coffee shop on the road.

[parallelfish]

But at least the battery in the power meter can last a year without recharging!

I seem to change the battery on my son's Stages power meter every three months or so.

[benb]

You want a Bontrager Node... they meet all your requirements EXCEPT that they don't actually record your power data and allow you to upload it to a computer/phone whatever for later analysis.

But if you just want a simple computer that will let you ride along and use your power meter the same way we all used HRMs and speed sensors for decades it will do the job, and it takes 1 x CR2032 battery and lasts about a year before you need to replace it.

I don't know if I have mine anymore.. I didn't use it with a PM but I used it for years and it was very dependable. And ANT+ is ANT+, I used it with a bunch of ANT+ sensors and it always worked fine. It might be limited in terms of whether it shows 3s/5s/current power, whether it can do laps, etc..

If you need to record on certain occasions I am fairly certain I had read about a "recording brick" you can stick in your back pocket while riding that you could use as a separate device, DC Rainmaker has one and uses it for part of his testing IIRC. One of the neat things with ANT+ compared to Bluetooth, etc.. is that it's more of a broadcast network, there is no problem with having more than one device reading the data from a sensor at the same time.

[R3awak3n]

I'm not against rechargeable batteries per se, but I'm looking for a unit which can go a long time (more than 30 or 40 hours) without some kind of battery servicing (recharge or replace).



(As an aside, I wonder what kind of bike computer Ultra Marathoners use - they often ride 20 or more hours a day, and sometimes several days straight.)


they probably have a dynamo and have the computer always pugled in to it.

[ptourkin]

they probably have a dynamo and have the computer always pugled in to it.

Nope. As described above, just a lipstick storage battery. A lot of us do use have a dyno for lighting but there is no reason to leave the computer plugged into it. They have very minimal battery needs. More often, we charge the storage battery with the dyno during the day but this is only necessary for activities longer than 72 hours or so when a larger storage battery runs down.

[Mark McM]

You want a Bontrager Node... they meet all your requirements EXCEPT that they don't actually record your power data and allow you to upload it to a computer/phone whatever for later analysis.

But if you just want a simple computer that will let you ride along and use your power meter the same way we all used HRMs and speed sensors for decades it will do the job, and it takes 1 x CR2032 battery and lasts about a year before you need to replace it.

I don't know if I have mine anymore.. I didn't use it with a PM but I used it for years and it was very dependable. And ANT+ is ANT+, I used it with a bunch of ANT+ sensors and it always worked fine. It might be limited in terms of whether it shows 3s/5s/current power, whether it can do laps, etc..

If you need to record on certain occasions I am fairly certain I had read about a "recording brick" you can stick in your back pocket while riding that you could use as a separate device, DC Rainmaker has one and uses it for part of his testing IIRC. One of the neat things with ANT+ compared to Bluetooth, etc.. is that it's more of a broadcast network, there is no problem with having more than one device reading the data from a sensor at the same time.

Thanks for the suggestion. I went to the Bontrager web site and took a look through the user manual for the Node 2.1, and it is oh so close to what I'm looking for. It's missing a function or two I'd like (it has altitude and grade, but not accumulated altitude gain), and its is limited on what data it can display simultaneously (it always displays Speed, Clock, and Ride Time, and all the other data has to share a single data field). If they came up with a Node 3 version with a little extra functionality, I'd snap it up immediately.

[weiwentg]

For years I have used, and been satisfied with, typical wireless bike computers that use lithium coin cell batteries. Sure, the battery(s) must be replaced occasionally (maybe once a year at best), but at least most computers give you adequate warning before the battery is dead.

I recently got a power meter, which as most do today, connects to a computer with ANT+. But I'm haven't found a decent ANT+ computer that doesn't need to be recharged often (every 10 hours or so, or about once or twice a week). I've used a (rechargeable battery) GPS bike computer in the past, but I found that I don't often have use for the GPS feature, and when I haven't stayed on top of the recharge schedule, its died in the middle of rides. With the coin cell computers, I can just jump on the bike and go without worrying about the computer lasting for the entire ride.

I suspect the biggest battery drains are the GPS, and possibly a backlight for some of the fancy color displays they sometimes put on these gadgets. But I don't need any of these. I did find one coin cell ANT+ computer, the Powertap Joule, but I found this computer did not have a well designed layout, and could not be configured for some of the features I desire.

So, are there any other bike computers with ANT+ compatibility that either don't use rechargeable batteries, or that can last most of a seaons on a single charge? GPS functionality is not necessity, although an altimeter would be nice.

A bunch of the guys saying to get a standard GPS computer and turn the GPS off may have a point, or they may be missing the mark. Hard to say.

There is a class of computers that I'll call mirroring devices. The Wahoo RLFKT and RFLKT+ (pronounced reflect) used coin cell batteries and connected to your smartphone. I believe Cateye makes a similar computer. I know for sure that Wahoo very recently discontinued the RFLKT, although they can still be had. Not enough demand. After all, the computer itself will last a long time, but it drains your phone, and I presume that's not exactly what you want. Although, consider if that solution plus a battery case (you want some sort of smartphone protection anyway) might work.

I am pretty sure this class of devices connects to your phone, and all your ANT sensors connect to the phone. The computer merely mirrors what it's getting from a relevant app, e.g. Strava or the Cateye equivalent. So, little power required computer-side, but you've offloaded everything to the phone.

There doesn't appear to be much demand for this sort of device, so nobody's making them. Except Cateye, and I haven't read such good reviews about their unit. There may be one other manufacturer doing this sort of version, but I don't remember. I think the Cateye can connect directly to your sensors and leave the smartphone out, so that might work.

Else, consider if you could get by with a standard GPS, and disable the GPS while riding. That said, there then doesn't appear to be any possibility to easily replace the GPS battery when it dies. It could take 3 years or more for its performance to deteriorate enough to warrant tossing it, but I agree, that seems very wasteful.

If you are content with that, consider a cheaper unit from Briton, a Taiwanese manufacturer. That said, the Amazon reviews indicate that their quality may be poor. No personal experience, I only am reporting what I saw when I was doing a bit of research. I wanted a simple GPS-only unit.

[sandyrs]

The Lezyne Super GPS has a 20+ hour battery life. That with a lipstick charger could easily get you over 30 hours.

[jruhlen1980]

There doesn't appear to be much demand for this sort of device, so nobody's making them.

The RFLKT was a good idea poorly executed. I tried it and it just didn't work very well. I gave Wahoo another chance with the Bolt, however, and so far so good (but it doesn't have a year of battery life or whatever the OP wants.)

The Lezyne Super GPS has a 20+ hour battery life. That with a lipstick charger could easily get you over 30 hours.

I don't know about the Year 10 version, but the year 9 version can't be charged while in use. However, I'd say 20 hour battery life is pretty spot on.

[weiwentg]

The RFLKT was a good idea poorly executed. I tried it and it just didn't work very well. I gave Wahoo another chance with the Bolt, however, and so far so good (but it doesn't have a year of battery life or whatever the OP wants.)

.

if it was a good idea for which there is enough demand, but Wahoo simply didn't do a good job on it, then why hasn't anyone come up with a good replacement? Why doesn't Wahoo put some time into fixing the problems, which for all we know are mainly on the software or firmware side?

I suspect there isn't enough demand, or Wahoo thinks there's not enough demand. Of course, it could just be that there is enough demand, but Wahoo is thinking too small, or there is enough demand, but Wahoo isn't willing to put in the time and effort for the profit they would make.

Back to the OP. His post implies that he wants to not have to worry about charging his GPS, which implies he would like something like 3-12 months' battery life out of a coin cell battery. So, something like the battery life that Di2 or EPS get. A valid question for him is that he has a cellphone. He charges that once or twice daily. Is doing the same for his bike computer that onerous, particularly considering that's how people get power data?

On the other hand, maybe the answer is yes. We already have to worry about pumping the tires, cleaning our bikes, replacing consumables like bar tape, etc. Now you want him to add another worry: charge the GPS daily (or once every 2-4 days or whatever). Replace the GPS when the battery wears out in 3-6 years. You want him to have to plan his long rides around the GPS battery capacity.

It's the 21st century. We were promised hover boards, nuclear powered cars, regular hypersonic travel. Instead we get cellphones and computers, but you have to charge daily. It's another semi-consumable part. You can't replace the batteries yourself without a lot of trouble (e.g. On Edge 500s you have to melt the glue that secures the battery to the circuit board). Is it that freaking hard to get a simple, not too expensive cycling computer that can read power alone, or that just provides GPS speed and tracking data, and doesn't require daily recharging?

[stien]

I think the OP needs a dyno hub.

[Jgrooms]

If you were on a ride w your buds in 1987 & one said "you know, we are going to have a bike computer that gives you speed by the military satellites & won't need any wires or spoke magnets." You'd have said "sure thing friend." But oh wait, it'll have a map, temp, altimeter, and give you real time physiological data via heart rate & measure your actual power. Oh & it will connect w a communicator in your pocket & have real time weather. It'll save so much data your head will spin & upload it all to your communicator automatically. You'll be able to compare your ride across time w 1000's of others. No kidding, but but I just gotta know, will the battery last for what, like a year!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chiasticon]

If you were on a ride w your buds in 1987 & one said "you know, we are going to have a bike computer that gives you speed by the military satellites & won't need any wires or spoke magnets." You'd have said "sure thing friend." But oh wait, it'll have a map, temp, altimeter, and give you real time physiological data via heart rate & measure your actual power. Oh & it will connect w a communicator in your pocket & have real time weather. It'll save so much data your head will spin & upload it all to your communicator automatically. You'll be able to compare your ride across time w 1000's of others. No kidding, but but I just gotta know, will the battery last for what, like a year!hahaha! well put. we're certainly spoiled in many regards. but you gotta pick your priorities I guess. want all that stuff? probably not gonna get the massive battery life. want massive battery life? get a simple computer.

[weiwentg]

If you were on a ride w your buds in 1987 & one said "you know, we are going to have a bike computer that gives you speed by the military satellites & won't need any wires or spoke magnets." You'd have said "sure thing friend." But oh wait, it'll have a map, temp, altimeter, and give you real time physiological data via heart rate & measure your actual power. Oh & it will connect w a communicator in your pocket & have real time weather. It'll save so much data your head will spin & upload it all to your communicator automatically. You'll be able to compare your ride across time w 1000's of others. No kidding, but but I just gotta know, will the battery last for what, like a year!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Very funny, and a good point.

But, here's my counterpoint. When I started riding in the early 2000s, a simple wired cyclocomputer was $15-20. $30 or so for a wireless version, or wired with cadence. You had heart rate monitors, too. Those were your options. Coin cell batteries for all, change every 6-12 months.

We now have the same tiers of simple computers. The next step up after that is $200-$300 GPS units. Mind you, that's in addition to the several hundred dollars for the power meter. Those units have battery lives of 8-20 hours. So, you have to figure on recharging every few rides, or perhaps every ride. It's yet another thing to keep track of.

Some of us go, but it's just one thing. You build it into your routine. Is that so bad for what you get? And others go, I just want to ride the damn bike and not have to worry about the freaking batteries. Just one thing sounds trivial to some of you, but it adds to the cumulative weight of the little cognitive tasks we need to do to get out the door with a functioning bike. And so, it's not actually trivial in the end.

And the data gained isn't all that important for many of us in the first place, so it becomes not worth the cost. Mark (the OP) appears to want just real time power and speed, no need to record, no need anything fancy. I wanted just real time speed from a GPS unit that I could upload for my own ride tracking, or that would auto-upload. Right now, a simple wired computer is, say, $30, and a simple wireless computer is $50. One step up is the $100 Edge 20, which has GPS speed and will record but not auto-upload, has an 8h battery life, has a proprietary data/charge cable. So now, I have a semi-consumable device for twice the price of a Cateye Padrone. I have to manually upload my data. I can't change the battery myself when it wears out. If I lose the cable, I can't just find a micro USB, I gotta go through Garmin (and they may have discontinued that damn cable). And i don't think the 20 even has ANT+, so I can't add a cadence sensor if I want one. That's not clearly worth twice the price of a Padrone. $100 more for an Edge 200 is even less worth it for my purposes.

[Jgrooms]

^Agree. I recently posted all my old computers, wired & wireless, on ebay. Some were basic. Some had early HR. I was surprised how much interest there was. I kept one Cateye mini.

On the other hand, I've accepted charging for lights, radar, phone & now etap. So adding the Garmin is no biggie.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mark McM]

Back to the OP. His post implies that he wants to not have to worry about charging his GPS, which implies he would like something like 3-12 months' battery life out of a coin cell battery. So, something like the battery life that Di2 or EPS get.

A valid question for him is that he has a cellphone. He charges that once or twice daily. Is doing the same for his bike computer that onerous, particularly considering that's how people get power data?

I do have a cellphone, but I'm not tethered to it (or to its charger) like a lot of people are. In fact, when I go for a ride, I often leave the cellphone behind.

Most days, the cellphone sits on my desk at work, lying on a wireless charging pad. It generally has enough battery capacity that I usually don't charge it on the weekends.

On the other hand, maybe the answer is yes. We already have to worry about pumping the tires, cleaning our bikes, replacing consumables like bar tape, etc. Now you want him to add another worry: charge the GPS daily (or once every 2-4 days or whatever). Replace the GPS when the battery wears out in 3-6 years. You want him to have to plan his long rides around the GPS battery capacity.

As you say, there are many maintenance tasks on a bike. But generally, they either only take a minute to do (inflate tires, fill up water bottles), or they are things that degrade slowly over time (chains, cables, handlebar tape, etc.), so that I get adequate warning before they become dire, and/or I can squeeze in an extra ride or two before having to address them. Not so with electrical devices - they either work or they don't, and it takes a significant amount of time to recharge batteries.

My work/life schedule is such that I don't always have a chance to plan and prepare for rides well in advance. Normally, a bike is a simple mechanical device that you can just jump on and ride any time. Coin cell computers didn't change that too much. But bike components that have to be recharged frequently (or they stop working entirely) change that paradigm.

[Mark McM]

Very funny, and a good point.

But, here's my counterpoint. When I started riding in the early 2000s, a simple wired cyclocomputer was $15-20. $30 or so for a wireless version, or wired with cadence. You had heart rate monitors, too. Those were your options. Coin cell batteries for all, change every 6-12 months.

We now have the same tiers of simple computers. The next step up after that is $200-$300 GPS units. Mind you, that's in addition to the several hundred dollars for the power meter. Those units have battery lives of 8-20 hours. So, you have to figure on recharging every few rides, or perhaps every ride. It's yet another thing to keep track of.

As far as I can tell, the main battery drain on the GPS units is the GPS itself. I've got a non-GPS computer that operates off a coin cell, that can communicate with wireless speed, cadence and heartrate sensors, that has a built in altimeter and thermometer, that can store many hours of ride data (that can be uploaded to a computer after the ride), and even has a backlight, and the battery can last a year or more.

But what does the GPS in most computers give you? For me, not a whole lot. I use GPS devices to tell me where I am, and how to get to where I'm going. But most GPS computers can't do this. Some allow you to pre-program a route into it - but if I have a pre-programmed route, why do I need a GPS? On those occasions where a GPS navigation system would be helpful, I can throw my cellphone into my pocket. The cellphone provides a much more useful GPS, with maps, directions, locations of interest, etc.

It is unfortunate that, as you say, there is no middle-tier of cycling computers. One that does everything that the coin cell computer I mentioned above does, but also adds the ability to receive power meter data. If the proprietary wireless sensor receiver was replaced with an ANT+ receiver, it couldn't add that much cost and battery drain to the device to add power reporting/recording. But apparently, with our "must be connected and on-line at all times" culture, there isn't enough demand for such a device.

[FlashUNC]

Anything that you're going to want to receive and store data for a ride just isn't going to have crazy long battery life (measured in months over hours and days). Or I guess if it does it would have a battery pack that makes using it prohibitive.

Compared to those Cateyes of old that just displayed whatever was happening at the current moment, today I've got a Garmin 25 that logs all the data, has GPS and is the size of those old computers. The trade off is charging it when I get home from a ride.

There's no free lunch, but the broader market has said they want features over charging.

[Mark McM]

Anything that you're going to want to receive and store data for a ride just isn't going to have crazy long battery life (measured in months over hours and days). Or I guess if it does it would have a battery pack that makes using it prohibitive.

Data storage requires very little power. My current computer (Sigma Rox 9.1) can store 15 to 90 hours of data (depending on recording interval) which can be later uploaded to a PC. The lithium coin cell battery lasts about a year.

Radios, backlights, and CPUs powerful enough to crunch GPS data in real time take far more electrical power than data storage.

[FlashUNC]

Data storage requires very little power. My current computer (Sigma Rox 9.1) can store 15 to 90 hours of data (depending on recording interval) which can be later uploaded to a PC. The lithium coin cell battery lasts about a year.

Radios, backlights, and CPUs powerful enough to crunch GPS data in real time take far more electrical power than data storage.

So all the things that make the data storage useful to the user? Got it.

[benb]

It's the CPU required to drive the displays on the gamins, etc.. the difference in power required for a moving map on a Garmin 8xx/1xxx etc.. is huge. And they are using more powerful computers than they absolutely have to so that they can make the software/system development reasonable enough to be able to sell the device at a decent price point.

You can run the kind of stuff you did on a traditional cycle computer on an incredibly simple computer and there is almost no software at all.

Are you absolutely sure you can't deal with charging? I was afraid of this too but it's not actually that bad in practice. It depends on your riding patterns but you only charge 1-2x per week unless you're doing huge rides and then you'll do it more often. The Gamins, etc.. pop off the handle bar really quickly, it becomes part of the routine to take it off and throw it in your jersey pocket when you finish the ride. Since it's just a USB you can recharge it just about anywhere (office, coffee shop, etc..) without needing anything special.

[shovelhd]

Data storage requires very little power. My current computer (Sigma Rox 9.1) can store 15 to 90 hours of data (depending on recording interval) which can be later uploaded to a PC. The lithium coin cell battery lasts about a year.

Radios, backlights, and CPUs powerful enough to crunch GPS data in real time take far more electrical power than data storage.

Powermeters record data at high rates to be able to react to torque spikes. That eats battery.

[Mark McM]

Powermeters record data at high rates to be able to react to torque spikes. That eats battery.

This makes no sense for two reasons:

1) It does make sense that the torque sensor is sampled at a high rate - but the smoothing and filtering (which is probably individual to the torque sensor type) should be done in the power meter before being transmitted to the head unit.

2) It takes more power to transmit than to receive, and yet the power meter (transmitter) can last for many months on a coin cell battery.

(Also, I think you mean that power meters process data at high rates, not record at high rates - there's no point of storing all that unprocessed raw data, when the post-processed data is all you are interested in.)

[Mark McM]

Are you absolutely sure you can't deal with charging? I was afraid of this too but it's not actually that bad in practice. It depends on your riding patterns but you only charge 1-2x per week unless you're doing huge rides and then you'll do it more often. The Gamins, etc.. pop off the handle bar really quickly, it becomes part of the routine to take it off and throw it in your jersey pocket when you finish the ride. Since it's just a USB you can recharge it just about anywhere (office, coffee shop, etc..) without needing anything special.

Well, until now, the only component I had a routine of popping off and charging between rides is my lights. That's kind of a special case, because as noted before, when it is dark you really can't ride without them.

When I got the power meter, I did a little research on head units. The Garmin 520 sounded like it had everything I could want (including actual maps to make the GPS useful), and reviews swore up and down it could go a week of normal riding without recharge. But several times, after fully charging the battery would be depleted by the third ride or so - much less than a week of riding. If I was doing a pleasure cruise, this would be just an annoyance, but it becomes a bigger pain if I'm in the middle of a structured interval workout.

I've turned the Bluetooth and the backlight off. Since I loaded some actually useful maps (so the map display gives meaningful information), I've left the GPS on. But maybe I need to turn the GPS off too.

[chiasticon]

I've left the GPS on. But maybe I need to turn the GPS off too.man, we're going through all this detailed discussion and suggestions, while all along you've got a 520 but haven't tried power-saving options on it? :crap:

[Mark McM]

man, we're going through all this detailed discussion and suggestions, while all along you've got a 520 but haven't tried power-saving options on it? :crap:

The only power saving function I haven't tried is turning the GPS receive off.

The Garmin 520 was selected because in my initial search didn't find any non-GPS head units that could receive power meter data. So I figured if I had to get a GPS unit, it might as well be a useful GPS, so I looked for one that had maps. I got a good deal on the 520, which made it the least expensive GPS computer I found with maps. As mentioned, the reviews I saw on the 520 indicated that it could last a week on a charge, but nobody mentioned turning the GPS receiver off.

If I could find head unit that used coin cells or had a decently long battery life, I'd sell the 520.

[weiwentg]

The only power saving function I haven't tried is turning the GPS receive off.

The Garmin 520 was selected because in my initial search didn't find any non-GPS head units that could receive power meter data. So I figured if I had to get a GPS unit, it might as well be a useful GPS, so I looked for one that had maps. I got a good deal on the 520, which made it the least expensive GPS computer I found with maps. As mentioned, the reviews I saw on the 520 indicated that it could last a week on a charge, but nobody mentioned turning the GPS receiver off.

If I could find head unit that used coin cells or had a decently long battery life, I'd sell the 520.

OK, but you have now established that most GPS bike computers aren't really set up for mapping and navigation. I also got used 705 a few years ago for the mapping functions, before I had an iPhone, and yes, it was nearly worthless for navigation.

GPS on bike computers is mainly for giving you your speed on the bike and then for post-ride processing on Strava. If you want to actually navigate, the best available device is a smartphone. You don't want to carry yours, so I guess it's paper maps, memorize route beforehand, ride with buddies who know the route, etc. Personally, I mostly do that, except I do carry my smartphone.

All told, I've wound up keeping my 705 for the few times when I want to record my ride, or I really wanted speed and distance. Most of the time, I can do without it. So far, I've either wanted a simple, small, GPS-based computer that shows speed, distance, and cadence, and that can record my rides, and that's it. I've not found such a device at a compelling price point. I then wondered, maybe I should just get a simple wireless computer with a speed and a cadence sensor. Problem is a Cateye Padrone is $50+, half the price of the Edge 20 I considered and rejected. I also wasn't feeling like strapping a relatively bulky speed sensor to my fork. I was wondering, surely in the 10+ years since I had a computer, there's a nice, simple, relatively inexpensive device that has unobtrusive wireless speed and cadence measurement.

Well, the answer is ... there are some such devices, but it looks like a very small segment of the market. Those of us whose needs/desires fit in that segment aren't going to be well-served right now. Mirroring devices don't appear to be well-developed, and they do drain your smartphone battery, so I don't want them (and you refuse to carry your smartphone, so they're irrelevant to you). The Node 2.1 does receive ANT+ signals, so I could get that and get a speed sensor, and perhaps a cadence sensor if I want, and that computer is coin cell powered and should be much more long-lived than the Edge 20/25. Thanks to whoever mentioned that. I'm not sure the price of a Node plus a Wahoo speed sensor is compelling, but it should be a pretty clean setup. It does look like Bontrager way over-priced it to start (MSRP was $140, they've dropped to $50). This does seem to fit the functions you said you were looking for, so that might work.

The Bryton GPS devices are very inexpensive, and their reported battery life is much longer than Garmins. I know at least one poster here has used them and liked them. On Amazon, the reviews scare me; majority positive, but some people report QC issues like the micro USB port coming out, and then Bryton refuses to respond to warranty requests (Taiwanese company FWIW). Anyway, perhaps those are worth some consideration for you; the very simple Rider 100 is selling for $65 on Amazon (which appears to be their official online store). I believe the Rider 100 is roughly equivalent to the Edge 200.

[Mark McM]

GPS on bike computers is mainly for giving you your speed on the bike and then for post-ride processing on Strava. If you want to actually navigate, the best available device is a smartphone. You don't want to carry yours, so I guess it's paper maps, memorize route beforehand, ride with buddies who know the route, etc. Personally, I mostly do that, except I do carry my smartphone.

Well, GPS can be used for measuring speed and distance, but they are actually less accurate than (less expensive) wheel sensor systems (which is why bike GPS makers also make and sell wheel sensors).

Yes, GPS is essentially required for Strava and similar apps, but I'm not really interested in using these apps.

I do occasionally have a use for GPS navigation on a bike, but only rarely. I have a generally good sense of direction and spatial memory, so most of the time I just have to look study a map at home for a few minutes, and I'm good to go. On those occasions I do a long ride far from my home turf, where a GPS would be useful, I usually have enough advanced notice to remember to charge a GPS device (which is usually my cell phone).


In any case, I think I've figured out what I'm going to do. I had been hoping that I could find a bike computer that had all the features I wanted in one package, but there don't appear to be any (picky, picky me!). So, maybe I need to use two devices instead. As I mentioned, there are non-GPS coin cell computers that can give me everything I want except for power meter display/recording. And there are non-GPS coin cell computers that can connect to power meters, but are lacking in other features I would like. There is enough room on my stem to mount two bike computers, so I think I may end up going with the 2 computer system.

[weiwentg]

Well, GPS can be used for measuring speed and distance, but they are actually less accurate than (less expensive) wheel sensor systems (which is why bike GPS makers also make and sell wheel sensors).

Yes, GPS is essentially required for Strava and similar apps, but I'm not really interested in using these apps.

I do occasionally have a use for GPS navigation on a bike, but only rarely. I have a generally good sense of direction and spatial memory, so most of the time I just have to look study a map at home for a few minutes, and I'm good to go. On those occasions I do a long ride far from my home turf, where a GPS would be useful, I usually have enough advanced notice to remember to charge a GPS device (which is usually my cell phone).


In any case, I think I've figured out what I'm going to do. I had been hoping that I could find a bike computer that had all the features I wanted in one package, but there don't appear to be any (picky, picky me!). So, maybe I need to use two devices instead. As I mentioned, there are non-GPS coin cell computers that can give me everything I want except for power meter display/recording. And there are non-GPS coin cell computers that can connect to power meters, but are lacking in other features I would like. There is enough room on my stem to mount two bike computers, so I think I may end up going with the 2 computer system.

And for my case, I am sticking with my 705, and I'll keep using it occasionally. When it dies, I'll just use my iPhone, perhaps with a battery pack.

A standard (non ANT) wireless computer is in the $50 range, and I might consider that. I was hoping to be able to dispense with as many wires as possible. I like the concept of Wahoo's cadence and speed sensors, as they are pretty unobtrusive, but getting a non-GPS ANT computer plus those sensors would run me into Edge 20/25 price territory at the very least. Not sure how much I like that.

Speaking of the Edge 20/25, it appears possible (https://forums.garmin.com/forum/into-sports/cycling/edge-20-25/149330-)to replace the battery yourself. However, there is a big caveat. The original battery is rated for 110 milliamp hours (mAh). It's a coin cell, lithium ion battery. You can buy them online for pretty cheap. But the specs (http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/88/RJD_series-962351.pdf) indicate a rated life of 500 charge cycles, and a capacity of about 2/3 of original capacity at 500 cycles. In contrast, your iPhone, iPad, and Macbook batteries are rated for 1000 cycles, with a residual capacity of 80% at the end of that span. My Mac laptop is under 80% capacity after nearly 7 years. My iPhone and iPad are at or just under 80% at about 3-4 years. For heavy users, an Edge 20 or 25 could run under their designated lifespan very quickly. A lot of people have complained that their units get more like 4-6 hours of life, which is not what I was hoping for. At that rate, I might as well just stick to no computer or a simple wireless computer, record on iPhone.

[foo_fighter]

Wahoo Element Mini? Though if you need GPS, it will probably drain your phone's battery.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/08/01/wahoo-element-mini-downsizes-gps-cycling-computer-borrowing-phones-signal/

Upon closer inspection, it doesn't look like it does power...strange.

[jruhlen1980]

Wahoo Element Mini? Though if you need GPS, it will probably drain your phone's battery.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/08/01/wahoo-element-mini-downsizes-gps-cycling-computer-borrowing-phones-signal/

Upon closer inspection, it doesn't look like it does power...strange.

It's an odd duck. Looks like it's quality, but for a very narrow market segment?

Anyway I've found that my phone GPS doesn't drain battery as much as you'd think. A couple years ago, the first time I did Dirty Kanza, I turned on Strava to record my ride, but then put my phone in airplane mode. (Somehow it still records the ride and GPS data, it just doesn't upload it until you turn the network back on.) Anyway, the ride took me nearly 18 hours and my phone lasted that whole time. The biggest battery killer on my phone (once I get all the settings tweaked to kill background apps sufficiently) is screen time.

[Mark McM]

Wahoo Element Mini? Though if you need GPS, it will probably drain your phone's battery.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/08/01/wahoo-element-mini-downsizes-gps-cycling-computer-borrowing-phones-signal/

Upon closer inspection, it doesn't look like it does power...strange.

Yeah, I saw that. The Wahoo Element Mini appears to be mostly a bike mounted display, with most of the work being done by a cell phone that it is paired to (through Bluetooth).

I guess this product is aimed at those people who have been conditioned to always be tethered to their Corporate Big Data Personal Habit Monitoring and Targeted Advertising Delivery Device ... um, I mean their cell phone.

(I have a cell phone, and I often find it very useful. But I'm not addicted to it like a lot of people seem to be.)

[weiwentg]

Wahoo Element Mini? Though if you need GPS, it will probably drain your phone's battery.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/08/01/wahoo-element-mini-downsizes-gps-cycling-computer-borrowing-phones-signal/

Upon closer inspection, it doesn't look like it does power...strange.

Holy cow, this could do it for me. It appears that pairing with a phone is optional. $100 is a price that could be better, but it will work for me. However, it won't pair with a power meter, hence it appears that it alone won't work for Mark McM.

The Specialized Speedzone ANT+ Double Wireless is similar in concept, $90 MSRP, but it doesn't pair with a phone, although it comes with a small combo speed and cadence sensor that goes on a chainstay. Less importantly, it lacks Bluetooth LTE.

So, for me, the Element Mini would dominate the Speedzone. $10 more, far better functionality for my use case.

[benb]

What are you guys who use the phone for navigation doing to be able to protect the phone from the elements and still be able to see the screen in sunny conditions?

I tried this on a trip with my iPhone in a pinch before I had my Edge 1000. (I had an eTrex at the time but didn't have it on the trip.) I bought a bar mount case for the phone. The overall experience was so bad I was delighted the LBS where I was on the trip took it back and refunded my money.

I found I basically couldn't see the iPhone screen unless I pulled over and took the screen protector/water protector off the phone. So it was no benefit over just pulling over and looking at the map and then going from memory. (I used paper maps for years too so this isn't hard.)

It was a far far far cry from the Garmin performance where you can see it perfectly in any lighting, don't worry about the water at all, and everything is clear and fast enough to navigate even in tight quarters around other riders.

My favorite thing with the Edge 1000 is if I'm just having a "chill out" ride I can leave the map up without navigating and the screen is good enough I can explore new routes without worrying about blowing my time constraints.

[chiasticon]

Yeah, I saw that. The Wahoo Element Mini appears to be mostly a bike mounted display, with most of the work being done by a cell phone that it is paired to (through Bluetooth).

I guess this product is aimed at those people who have been conditioned to always be tethered to their Corporate Big Data Personal Habit Monitoring and Targeted Advertising Delivery Device ... um, I mean their cell phone.as long as you don't want GPS on the device (like, for mapping; which it sounds like you said you don't care about before, you'll just use your phone if you need it), you can just use the (included) speed sensor to get distance. don't pair a phone = no GPS. should get good battery life then. and in fact, I'm sure that's a large part of the "up to" scenario within their "up to 12 months" battery life estimate.

per DC Rainmaker:
Now it’s important to note that the MINI has two basic modes:

Phone-free mode: When you’ve broken your phone, it’ll use the speed sensor for speed/distance
Phone-mode: When you have your phone, it’ll use that for GPS (and thus speed/distance)

one caveat though is that there's no built-in altimeter. so you either get if from your phone's, via GPS (via phone) or in your scenario, none.

EDIT: scratch all that. it doesn't work with a power meter anyway. and in fact, ONLY works with Wahoo's sensors. lame.

[jruhlen1980]

All the pros and cons laid out here:

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/08/wahoo-elemnt-mini-in-depth-review.html

His biggest complaint is the limitation of sensors to only use Wahoo; and a big question mark as to what market segment will want this.

[Mark McM]

as long as you don't want GPS on the device (like, for mapping; which it sounds like you said you don't care about before, you'll just use your phone if you need it), you can just use the (included) speed sensor to get distance. don't pair a phone = no GPS. should get good battery life then. and in fact, I'm sure that's a large part of the "up to" scenario within their "up to 12 months" battery life estimate.

per DC Rainmaker:


one caveat though is that there's no built-in altimeter. so you either get if from your phone's, via GPS (via phone) or in your scenario, none.

As previously mentioned, there are several very good coin cell computers that have built in altimeters (plus interface with speed, cadence and heartrate sensors), that on a stand-alone basis are better than the Wahoo Element Mini. I am already using one. But I have been unable to find a good coin cell computer that also interfaces with a power meter (which is the reason I started this thread).

And now my next rant:

Okay, if I really want a power meter, I'll just have to break down and condition myself to remembering to recharge my bike computer. But after having used a Garmin GPS computer with my new power meter, I've come to despise the presentation of data on the display. Most sophisticated bike computers these days allow great flexibility in setting up display "pages", in which the user can select the number of data windows to show, and what data to put in each window. Multiple pages can be set up, which the user can quickly flip between with a button push. Because data can be put anywhere, an identifying name is written next to the number data. Sounds good, right? Wrong. Needing to read a word next to the number makes it more difficult to read the data in a quick glance (and you need to read the name, because the same location may have different data, depending on what page you are on). The name also takes up space in each data "window", limiting the size of the digits (and on small displays, the digits can get very small).

It would be far more user friendly if bike computer makers just took a small amount of time to improve their user interfaces. For example, rather than using text to label data, they should use a system that can identify and differentiate data immediately. For example, they can use a unique symbol next to a data value (quick example - a heart shape next to heartrate, or slope angle symbol next to percent grade),, or use a different font or a different boarder for specific kinds of data, or maybe even a different color.

These issues aren't unique to bike computer makers. Aircraft designers have been facing similar issues when designing "glass cockpits", which use graphical displays to present information - and in many situations it would be really bad if a pilot misread or misinterpreted a display.

[benb]

You're somewhat making a mountain out of a molehill.

If you have a Garmin or equivalent you set it up the way you like it and then you don't mess with it and you very quickly learn where the data is.

The data is bigger than on coin cell computers as well making it even easier to see at a glance as well.

Most of the coin cell computers I owned worked exactly the same way, only they didn't even have any labeling at all. And it didn't really matter most of the time as most of the data reveals what it is based on the range.

Speed and HR are pretty much never in the same range. Power and Speed are never in the same range. Power and HR can cross over but usually don't. Distance is a decimal # most of the time.

If you're setting up the Garmin with average power 3s/average power 5s/average power 20s/lap power/lap NP next to each other than I can see it being a problem but that is pretty weird usage and not one the smaller coin cell computers could ever do anyway.

[weiwentg]

Wahoo Element Mini? Though if you need GPS, it will probably drain your phone's battery.

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/08/01/wahoo-element-mini-downsizes-gps-cycling-computer-borrowing-phones-signal/

Upon closer inspection, it doesn't look like it does power...strange.

For the record, in 2012, my iPhone 4 lasted the entire Civil War Century (Frederick, MD, hosted by Bike Maryland / Team Baltimore Bicycling Club, my old team) with Strava running in the background, no use of maps (corner marshalls, cue sheets, etc).

Currently, I'm on an iPhone 5, and I could consider getting a battery case. The drain will be bigger, as the Mini will pair via Bluetooth. I've ordered one from Wahoo, will report on the drain.

[R3awak3n]

this could be of interest

https://www.bikerumor.com/2017/08/01/wahoo-element-mini-downsizes-gps-cycling-computer-borrowing-phones-signal/

[chiasticon]

You're somewhat making a mountain out of a molehill.

If you have a Garmin or equivalent you set it up the way you like it and then you don't mess with it and you very quickly learn where the data is.100% agree. I don't read my data field names, just the values. the first handful of rides, you're like "where the hell is everything?" but your brain quickly remembers it and soon you're just glancing at the screen and taking it all in at once. as long as you're not changing it around all the time, you'll adapt and memorize where everything is very quickly.

for my, this is especially true as I have one "live stats" page which is always up while riding (HR, power, cadence, speed) and one more page of crap I only really care about after riding (various averages, distance, elevation, etc). with only four stats on the "live" page, it's super easy to just get what you want without reading any field names. or, as I said, a casual glance will usually take it all in at once. very quickly, you're not even thinking about it.

the charging thing really is not the bad, in my opinion. I only get annoyed when I have like three lights to charge in addition to that (i.e. winter).

[Mark McM]

If you have a Garmin or equivalent you set it up the way you like it and then you don't mess with it and you very quickly learn where the data is.

Just because you've gotten used to it, it doesn't make it good.


The data is bigger than on coin cell computers as well making it even easier to see at a glance as well.

The data on a GPS computer is not always bigger than on coin cell computers - in fact, it is often smaller. For example, the Sigma Rox (coin cell) has a screen about 20% smaller than a Garmin 500 (GPS). And yet, when each is displaying 6 values on the screen, the 4 of values are about the same size, but the other 2 values on the Sigma are larger. When each computer displays only 3 values on the screen, all the data values on the Sigma are larger. How does the Sigma do that? With better use of real estate. Rather than using a labels above each data value, it uses an icon next to the value. And the Sigma uses a bolder font for the smaller numbers, making them more legible.


Most of the coin cell computers I owned worked exactly the same way, only they didn't even have any labeling at all. And it didn't really matter most of the time as most of the data reveals what it is based on the range.

Then you've used poor coin cell computers. Even my old Avocet computers from 20 years ago used more succinct labeling and better use of display real estate than the Garmin does.


Speed and HR are pretty much never in the same range. Power and Speed are never in the same range. Power and HR can cross over but usually don't. Distance is a decimal # most of the time.

Speed, average speed, and distance all use decimals, and can be in the same range. Cadence, power, heartrate and altitude can all be in the same range. Some other means of differentiation must be applied.

Here's another area where common GPS computers fall down: There are about 4 or 5 data values that I'd like to have continuously (these are instaneous changing values like speed, power, cadence, etc.), but there are about another 10 or 12 secondary data values that I would like to have available at some point during the ride (distance, max altitude, ride time, etc.). With the Garmin, I'd have to set up several data pages to have all those values available. And when set up this way, different areas of the screen may have different data values, depending on which page I'm on. So, if I'm not on the correct page when I glance down, in addition to looking at a particular area on the display, I have to read a label.

It would be far better if the display could be partitioned into a fixed area, for data values that should always be available (instanteously changing values like speed, power, etc.), and a selectable area, which maybe paged through for less dynamic data (like distance, ride time, etc.). This is hardly a new concept - aircraft and automobile graphic displays also have areas where important data that must always be displayed are shown (such as airspeed, attitude indicator, tachometer, etc.), and other display data can be optionally displayed by user selection (navigation data, radio settings, etc.). The Sigma Rox (coin cell) does this - the top 2/3rds of the screen always shows a set of the most commonly reference instantaneous values (such as speed, cadence, heartrate, etc.), and the bottom 1/3rd of the screen shows a value that can be paged from a pre-programmed list of values (such as distance, average speed, ride time, etc.). And unlike the Garmin, if desired any and all other ride values can be accessed from a menu at any time during a ride - even esoteric values like average cadence or maximum temperature. On the Garmin, data not pre-programmed to be displayed can only be accessed later when uploaded to a computer.

When developing GPS computers, the designers appeared to have started from a clean slate - but they threw out the good ideas with the bad, and appear to have not fully matured their display systems. Maybe I've just gotten used to a better system, and will now have deal with a compromised system until the GPS makers catch up.

[jruhlen1980]

You're somewhat making a mountain out of a molehill.

TBH that sums up the premise of this thread.

[benb]

Almost none of the values actually need to be on the display all the time.

You actually care about average speed during the ride? And you're riding with power?

I set up one page with 5 of the most important fields. Anything else I need goes on a different page, which duplicates some of the fields (that takes care of your big concern about always seeing your important data on every screen.)

But I never look at any of that secondary information unless I'm in a lull in the ride. I don't go look at what time of day it is or what time the sunset is or how many feet of elevation gain I have while I'm riding an interval or trying not to get dropped.

To be honest I often don't even care what my speed is, much less average speed. I don't need it when "training". I can look at it afterwards. Same thing as hiding the speedometer on a racing motorcycle. I also don't put my HR on the primary important page anymore. If I'm doing a hard interval having the HR displayed does nothing except mentally mess you up.

[Mark McM]

Almost none of the values actually need to be on the display all the time.

You actually care about average speed during the ride? And you're riding with power?

In truth, you can ride without any kind of computer display at all, and I did when I was much younger (and electronic bicycle computers hadn't been invented yet). But having certain information available satisfies my curiosity and adds to my ride enjoyment. Average speed is a bit of a curiosity thing most of the time, but sometimes can be useful, as for pacing in a time trial. I've only just gotten a power meter, and for the most part have only used for interval training.

I do a variety of different kinds of riding, for a variety of different purposes, and my desire for different kinds of information varies depending on what kind of riding I'm doing. For example, when doing intervals, I really only care about power, cadence and time. When I'm doing mountain climbs, altitude and slope become useful, to gauge my progress up the climb, although a max. speed value can satisfy my curiosity for the descents. Other numbers I like to see are max. altitude, altitude gain, time in zones, etc. Maybe you're not interested in this stuff, but I am. And ironically, until I got the urge to add a power meter, I've been able to get most of the features I'm looking for.

I set up one page with 5 of the most important fields. Anything else I need goes on a different page, which duplicates some of the fields (that takes care of your big concern about always seeing your important data on every screen.)

I've tried that, but keeping the same 4 or 5 primary values in every page doesn't leave enough pages to display all secondary values I'd like (at least not without showing so many fields in each page that the numbers become too small).

Like I said, I don't need all the numbers all the time. Most of the time I get by fine with just a few. But I'd like to be able to have access to other numbers during a ride, and not have to wait until I get back and upload to a computer. I guess my problem here is similar to my problem with GPS bike computers in general - just like I want a GPS to tell me where I am while I'm out on a ride, and not just tell me where I was when I get back, I'd like a bike computer to be able to tell me all the ride information while I'm out on a ride, and not just tell me that information when I get back.

Maybe I just expect more than the average bike computer user in this regard. While I'm certain there are smart phone apps which will do all this for me, I don't want to have to mount a $600 dollar limited battery life device on my handlebar to do it.

[benb]

You know on a Garmin you can set up activity profiles that save different types of screen settings (along with everything else) too.

I have mine setup for my 3 bikes + 1 for indoor because I have different sensors on each bike, but you could easily build them for your different types of rides. Make one for a hill climb, one for touring, one for training, etc..

There is a ton more flexibility in these modern devices than there were in the coin-cell ones, besides, at some point all the configurability in the world is somewhat meaningless without the recording capabilities.

You should just design your own computer...

[Mark McM]

You know on a Garmin you can set up activity profiles that save different types of screen settings (along with everything else) too.

I have mine setup for my 3 bikes + 1 for indoor because I have different sensors on each bike, but you could easily build them for your different types of rides. Make one for a hill climb, one for touring, one for training, etc..

Yes - but you can switch between activity profiles in the middle of a ride (without resetting the values already stored)? I didn't think so. These devices appear to be designed so that all activities are pre-programmed, as if all rides are pre-ordained and without deviation. This appears to be how the GPS is supposed to work - you pre-load a route, and it tells you when to turn. But if you decide to make a diversion, the GPS can't help you at all.

Sometimes I do structured workouts, and these really are pre-programmed rides, so these GPS devices work just fine. But other times I prefer to be more flexible, and change my route or do other unplanned things on my bike. And at these times I'd like my bike computer to remain useful.

I'm sorry to hear that many sheeple are so unimaginative and unadventurous.


There is a ton more flexibility in these modern devices than there were in the coin-cell ones, besides, at some point all the configurability in the world is somewhat meaningless without the recording capabilities.

Actually, that Sigma coin cell computer I mentioned earlier can record all the data it gathers, at a user selectable timer interval. At the fastest timer interval it can save 15 hours of data. So clearly, this is not a limitation of using a coin cell battery.




By the way,

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder858/500x/65271858/grumpy-cat-im-not-arguing-im-just-explaining-why-im-right.jpg

[weiwentg]

There is a ton more flexibility in these modern devices than there were in the coin-cell ones, besides, at some point all the configurability in the world is somewhat meaningless without the recording capabilities.

You should just design your own computer...

Why do you assume recording capabilities must be paramount to Mark?

If you're racing and you or your coach are analyzing your power data intensively, then sure, they're very useful. If you're a pro, then of course they're of supreme importance.

But say you're a solo enthusiast, with no desire for social media, not racing or not that serious. It's my understanding - and I could be wrong, please correct me if so - that you can pair your smartphone to a powermeter for recording, so you can self-test your FTP that way.

Then, say you're riding on the road. In the moment, all you'd truly need is your current power. Say you are actually pushing something approaching FTP - even if you had a full scale GPS computer, you couldn't go and ask it how long you had been at FTP before that moment. All you'd be able to rely on was current power anyway. Why should I spend $250 or more on a GPS computer for that if I could get that with a $100 computer, or even less than that?

It's not unfair to ask, you spent $400+ on the power meter, what's an additional $250? It's the cost of doing business with power. But for me, considering those economics, it's completely not worth it. For Mark, I guess it isn't worth the marginal $150 out of pocket for the GPS (i.e. cost of an entry level Garmin minus what he could otherwise have got) plus all the work he has to do to charge the thing - and don't laugh, even simple tasks like those are additional things we have to keep track of, and that we can miss.

[FlashUNC]

What you want doesn't exist, or does but you're unwilling to compromise on any number of factors that seem to be constantly evolving.

The unit you want seems like it would sell to a market of 1. But what do those dummies at Garmin know, right?

[ColonelJLloyd]

What you want doesn't exist, or does but you're unwilling to compromise on any number of factors that seem to be constantly evolving.

The unit you want seems like it would sell to a market of 1. But what do those dummies at Garmin know, right?

+1

What an exhausting thread. You're smart, everyone else are sheep, blah blah blah blah blah.