Advice for high-speed descents & hairpins

[Ciavete]

Greetings fellow Paceliners.

I was crazy lucky this past May to spend a week in Sicily with a relatively young cycling camp program there. Great experience BTW: http://www.sicilycyclingclub.com/

There was plenty of climbing (don't think Sicilians know what a flat road is) and high-speed descents. I've done plenty of road cycling but this was my introduction to really technical stuff, including how to handle steep descents and hairpins.

One of my fellow campmates, a former pro racer from Denmark, told me I should emphasize the front brake and move more of my body's weight over the front wheel. He was a nice guy and I detected no hint of him wanting to visit me in a local Sicilian hospital for a unique tourist experience.

I've spent all my years riding doing the opposite, maybe because many moons ago I started with mountain biking where both of these methods were liable to send you over the handlebars.

Anyway, I've been experimenting with it and feel I'm getting what he was talking about. That said, I'm curious what advice/counsel you experienced riders out there may have. And if there may be some recommended online videos/tutorials.

Fifty-three years old, and Sicily - especially Mount Etna - taught me I'm still learning how to ride a bike.

Cheers!

[rnhood]

Always be able to stop in the visible distance ahead. And I disagree with weight over the front more. I usually move my weight slightly more to the rear (slide back in saddle a little). And to be aero you need to ride the drops so that your back is flat'ish, or sit on the top tube which seems to be in vogue with the pros these days. Both are good descending positions, but I am definitely more comfortable in the drops.

[MattTuck]

Unless you're being paid to race a bike, I see no reason for high speed descents.

The best case scenario is you get to the bottom a few seconds faster, and your ego gets stroked. Worst case.... won't even say it.

[bigreen505]

This is a pretty good list: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp9p24-o3-Y

[Ciavete]

Thanks all.

Regarding shifting "some" weight over the front wheel, his argument was it helped with controlling the front wheel/steering.

Will check out the vids!

Cheers.

[Bruce K]

I was told to always look where you want to go as your body will follow.

As for "high speed", I would suggest that it is a relative term as conditions, terrain, skill level, and comfort zone all play a part. Exceeding the limits of any one of these is usually when bad stuff happens.

BK

[Hindmost]

Shift your weight back as much as practical. If you are doing hard technical braking your weight will be over the front wheel rather quickly and the rear brake becomes almost useless.

[ultraman6970]

IME, going downhill in a road bike and even in a mtb or bmx; it is a thing of feeling and skill that you have or you don't, you can learn it? yes but the feeling of the road and when and where do the things it is a natural thing.

That being said, IMO your friend over there is right about the wieght in the front and about pressing the front brake more but it depends on the terrain, weather conditions and grabble in the road, you dont want to press the front brake in a curve that has grabble and in some countries there's always that, you press the front one you will lock the wheel and disaster. So you have to be aware of your surroundings and take the right desition. I do agree that in MTB you do the opposite but in MTB you have bar terrain all the time and a fork with suspension, and that makes a big difference.

To finish, the bike, fit and rider technique makes a big difference going down hill too, to me a bike that gives you zero feedback from the road is a problem because well you could be floating over the pavement and dont even feel it. Regarding the fit, well pretty much self explains it but combine a bad fit with a poor technique going downhill and you are calling a disaster. Thing ive seen here more than ones and honestly I dont even have climbs or downhills like the ones you have in italy.

Enjoy your time over there :)

[bigreen505]

Thanks all.

Regarding shifting "some" weight over the front wheel, his argument was it helped with controlling the front wheel/steering.

Will check out the vids!

Cheers.

Look ahead and put weight where it needs to be. Long, smooth, fast? Weight over the front wheel. Bumpy or broken pavement coming up? You're a mountain biker, you know what to do. In general weight stays forward until you need to brake, then shifts momentarily back so you don't go over the bars.

[ColonelJLloyd]

I don't know much about form, technique or the like. But, as a guy who just likes riding bikes I can say that wider, higher quality tires at lower pressures has made a big difference in the amount of confidence I have in corners and descents. That said, I don't push the envelope as Matt eluded. I've got kids, man.

[bikinchris]

Anytime you touch the front brake, your weight will already be forward. The harder you brake, the more forward your center of gravity, until your center of gravity passes your front hub. At which point, you rotate around the hub yourself and wind up laying on the road.

Your position when fast cornering should be deep on the drops, so your weight is as low as possible. Center of the saddle makes the most sense. Not too far forward or back. Perfection would be 55% of your weight on the rear wheel and 45% on the front. You should put as much weight as possible on the inside handlebar and outside pedal. Keep your head upright. Don't lean your head. Do most of your braking BEFORE the turn. If it's a blind turn you don't know, SLOW DOWN.

LEARN to use the road available and understand the turn in, apex and track out of a turn.

https://youtu.be/LxMSdvnm0Ms

Except on a bicycle, you have counter steer before turn in. You can lean and counter steer to initiate more lean if necessary.
Unlike some of these pros in the Tour. They are running off the road all over the place. If you do slide out, you want to slide out wheels first!

Here is something about hairpin turns:
https://youtu.be/ZTSpf6utKto?t=2m50s

Sorry, this is more about cars, but I was focusing on the line taken.

[saab2000]

Much of cycling is training and genetics. Descending can be learned, to a degree.

Practice, practice and more practice. Find what works for you with braking and balance.

Having confidence in your equipment is critical, so make sure everything is in top condition and properly tuned before setting off on high speed descents.

[merckxman]

Pros in the same corner on fast descent:
http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2011/07/descending-technique-on-pramartino.html?m=1

[Mzilliox]

Pros in the same corner on fast descent:
http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2011/07/descending-technique-on-pramartino.html?m=1

this is cool, thanks

[soulspinner]

this is cool, thanks

+1 interesting

[shovelhd]

It's natural for riders that are uncomfortable descending to shift their weight back on the saddle. That's not optimal. You're taking weight off of the front wheel that is doing most of the steering and braking. The rear wheel is doing a little bit of braking, and once you learn how to do it, a little bit of steering. Shifting your weight back to get more rear wheel braking is a bad tradeoff.

Likewise, you shouldn't be shifting your weight forward, either. That's a great way to end up doing a high side.

What you should strive for is neutrality in all riding conditions. You know how a good feeling bike disappears beneath you? That's because your position on the bike is balanced well. So if your bike is set up to ride that way on the flats, it is set up to ride that way on uphills and downhills, too. It's you that's the problem. Resist the temptation to shift your weight forward and backward on the saddle because you saw some pro do it on a video. Experiment with achieving neutrality using the same hill. This is a learned skill. You can't learn it from a video, you have to learn it on the bike.

[verbs4us]

Ansys.com recently did some computer analysis on descent position. Sign up for the free webinar next week, called "Which cyclist’s hill descent position is really superior? Froome, Pantani, Nibali or Sagan? New Results!": http://www.ansys.com/campaigns/sports-industry-webcast-series

[Peter P.]

One of my fellow campmates, a former pro racer from Denmark, told me I should emphasize the front brake and move more of my body's weight over the front wheel.

Pro or not, I have to disagree with their advice.

On a descent, your front wheel already has a front wheel weight bias because of the road tilt. Braking too hard with the front wheel is easier on a descent, and you may unexpectedly discover it easier to lock up the front wheel, resulting in a pitch over or front wheel washout. This would be especially true on the hairpin bends themselves.

While I recommend using BOTH brakes at all times when necessary, I recommend a rear wheel braking bias in the hairpins. Here's why.

When you brake, on a descent or even in a turn on flat ground, the tire is technically skidding but on a "microscopic" level. If you apply more front brake than rear on that level ground turn, you'll find the bike feels like it's pulling to the outside of the turn-the higher the speed, the more the effect.

Using more rear brake than front, or no front brake at all when possible, allows the front tire to grip the road better without that microscopic skid effect. The result is, the bike will more closely follow the turn. And, by "microscopically" causing the rear brake to skid in the turn, the bike actually changes direction with the rear wheel kicking out and pointing the headtube more in the direction the bike is actually headed.

Remember; there is no perceptual skidding involved with my technique but I find it gets me through corners faster.

[11.4]

Some cyclists take the move-weight-forward point of view because they saw it in motorcycle or auto racing. There, you turn in part by allowing your rear to slide, so unweighting is part of the process. Plus, there's enough weight that can't be shifted intentionally, so when you brake you increase the weighting on the front regardless.

The biggest shortcoming with the move-weight-forward argument is that if you lose adhesion, you have committed yourself entirely to the one wheel that can't be allowed to slide significantly. I'll let my rear wheel drag in turns, though even doing that reduces speed a fair bit, even if not intended. But if your front wheel goes, you've lost balance and steering at once. And narrow cycling tires depend on rolling in a more-or-less straight line.

Beyond that, rider forward tends to be less aerodynamic and tends to be less stable as a riding position. You aren't able to connect with the saddle well and use it to butt-steer, which is important to good bike handling. And if you lose adhesion on the road, or need to steer dramatically because you made a mistake in your line, you have to address your body position before you can address your current risk. And last, you turn and descend better with your arms relaxed and supple; that's hard to do when they are supporting more of your weight and bracing your position on the bike.

The biggest thing about descending and hairpins is to learn how to countersteer. Once you've learned that by doing fast turns on flats, you'll see you can carve an incredibly tight turn without shifting your body or destabilizing your bike at all. The next lesson is to learn to use your butt more than your bars -- your headset makes the bike work according to the right principles of physics, but you aren't supposed to use it to steer with. Instead, your butt can steer you through most turns and countersteering can help you push to the edge.

There are lots of small hedges you can take to improve descents, such as a lower bottom bracket, wider tires, lower pressures, stiffer wheels, yada yada. But none will make you safe on a descent unless you can do the basics and aren't handicapping yourself with a bad position. I'd get the basic technique down and not worry about hardware.

[dm0n3y]

They say the gruppetto is known for having some of the best decenders, seems Robbie McEwen has learned a trick or too from his time bombing down mountains in europe and shares some of the keys to cornering fast here, enjoy! https://vimeo.com/85972064

[BobO]

Regarding shifting "some" weight over the front wheel, his argument was it helped with controlling the front wheel/steering.

You don't have to shift your weight to the front, the physics of braking will to that for you. The principle he's talking about it using the forward weight transfer to increase the total load and therefore tractive capacity of the front tire so you don't understeer. You have to be seriously hauling ass or be way off line for this to matter. In the terms of bicycles, I'd be more concerned with unloading the rear than I would be with understeering the front.

[Buzz]

Not unsurprisingly the former Danish pro knows what he is talking about.

Look at all of the riders in the link posted above: http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2011/07/descending-technique-on-pramartino.html?m=1

They are all forward in nearly identical positions: outer leg down and weighted, head up and eyes forward. Contador who is described in the piece as blazingly fast is so far forward that you can see a good portion of the rear of his saddle.

Descending fast and cornering requires a dynamic position. Sitting back won't get it done. Anyone who has ever skiied knows you have to always be leaning forward and the second you shift weight rearward you lose control.

One other piece of advice that really helped me (and it came from a pro who raced and won at the highest level on the world stage) was that the faster you enter a turn the earlier or quicker you must initiate your turn.

For example if you enter a turn at 15 mph and it takes you two seconds to reach the apex of the turn and in those two seconds your brain tells you to lean and you weight your outside pedal, etc you are all good. Same turn but now you are going 30 mph which means that you will reach the apex of the turn in one second or twice as fast and yet if you initiate your turn and lean it will still take you two seconds to get your body lean in the right position meaning that you will not be in the right position until you are already one second past the apex of the turn. In other words you are too late.

So the faster you are going the earlier you have to initiate the turning movement as in before you actually reach the turn. If you do this you will find yourself not being thrown to the outer edges of the turn or having to brake.

[Buzz]

Not unsurprisingly the former Danish pro knows what he is talking about.

Look at all of the riders in the link posted above: http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2011/07/descending-technique-on-pramartino.html?m=1

They are all forward in nearly identical positions: outer leg down and weighted, head up and eyes forward. Contador who is described in the piece as blazingly fast is so far forward that you can see a good portion of the rear of his saddle.

Descending fast and cornering requires a dynamic position. Sitting back won't get it done. Anyone who has ever skiied knows you have to always be leaning forward and the second you shift weight rearward you lose control.

One other piece of advice that really helped me (and it came from a pro who raced and won at the highest level on the world stage) was that the faster you enter a turn the earlier or quicker you must initiate your turn.

For example if you enter a turn at 15 mph and it takes you two seconds to reach the apex of the turn and in those two seconds your brain tells you to lean and you weight your outside pedal, etc you are all good. Same turn but now you are going 30 mph which means that you will reach the apex of the turn in one second or twice as fast and yet if you initiate your turn and lean it will still take you two seconds to get your body lean in the right position meaning that you will not be in the right position until you are already one second past the apex of the turn. In other words you are too late. So the faster you are going the earlier you have to initiate the turning movement as in before you actually reach the turn. If you d this you will find yourself not being thrown t the outer edges of the turn or braking.

[dpk501]

I think the forward thing comes a lot from how I learned descending when I first started riding as a kid (less fear!)

I read the Davis Phinney excerpt from Ed Pavelka's book (old school bicycling editor with the 'stache) and it changed my cornering cycling life. Always push down and/or forward on the inside end of the handlebar effectively weighing the front of the bike more to get a quicker line.Tuck that knee into the top tube.

Hasn't failed me yet.

That being said, Lemond was a great descender and he was a neutral position knee out kind of guy

[godukes]

I for one applaud you for being over 50 and trying to improve yourself on the bike. I don't think improving decents means having to crash. Most every group ride I go on the descents are a mess and get broken up almost as much as the climbs and its often the tree monkey climbers who get dropped. Last I checked in racing decents count just like an ascent.

Of course be safe, but good on you.

[Ciavete]

I for one applaud you for being over 50 and trying to improve yourself on the bike. I don't think improving decents means having to crash. Most every group ride I go on the descents are a mess and get broken up almost as much as the climbs and its often the tree monkey climbers who get dropped. Last I checked in racing decents count just like an ascent.

Of course be safe, but good on you.

Thank you for the kind words godukes. And thanks all for the wealth of wisdom and insights; Paceline at its best.

Yes always learning (on multiple fronts!). I was lucky to get a Pegoretti for making it to 50, and with it I started riding everywhere at every opportunity. On this most recent once-in-a-lifetime trip, I brought it with me to climb Stelvio and get a blessing at Ghisallo. Mount Etna, Monte Baldo, Ghisallo, Stelvio, Lago Cancano and Gavia. Tons of climbing and descending. The Peg knows what to do and is waiting for me to let it. The moments of feeling in harmony with the bike, at any speed, are wonderful. Going "fast" while feeling one with the bike is just awesome.

BTW, if you make it to Bormio be sure to include Lago Cancano in your ride list. Not as famous or dramatic as Stelvio but really beautiful.

Cheers.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu239/eapadilla/Lake%20Cancano%20summit_zpsrdy63fmf.jpg (http://s651.photobucket.com/user/eapadilla/media/Lake%20Cancano%20summit_zpsrdy63fmf.jpg.html)

[Buzz]

Great list of climbs. Will have to try Lago Cancano next time!

[cnighbor1]

What happened to enter turn on the outside dive to inside and back to outside
which creates a larger radius Hence an easier turn

[11.4]

What happened to enter turn on the outside dive to inside and back to outside
which creates a larger radius Hence an easier turn

If you're riding alone on an empty road with clear and visible turns, yup.

Otherwise, you have to plan for a car in the wrong place, a rider taking your line so you get squeezed inside or outside, a bobble in the retaining wall coming out of a hairpin or a simple patch of gravel where you don't need it, then you need everything else you can muster.

[Bob Ross]

Unless you're being paid to race a bike, I see no reason for high speed descents.

Um...because it's fun?

[Mark McM]

Not unsurprisingly the former Danish pro knows what he is talking about.

Look at all of the riders in the link posted above: http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.com/2011/07/descending-technique-on-pramartino.html?m=1

They are all forward in nearly identical positions: outer leg down and weighted, head up and eyes forward. Contador who is described in the piece as blazingly fast is so far forward that you can see a good portion of the rear of his saddle.[\QUOTE]

I suspect the apparent forward position of these riders is actually an artifact of other position choices these riders have made. Namely, they are trying to get their bodies low, and trying to keep their weight on their outside leg and
on bent arms. This low "crouching" position makes it easier to absorb shocks that might throw one off line, and to react quickly to rapidly changing positions. I'm not sure if forward weight distribution directly enters their decisions.


[QUOTE=Buzz;2204533]Descending fast and cornering requires a dynamic position. Sitting back won't get it done. Anyone who has ever skiied knows you have to always be leaning forward and the second you shift weight rearward you lose control.

I agree that a dynamic position is desireable (especially if the surface is changing). But I don't think the skiing analogy really applies. Skis are controlled by varying the shape of the edge against the snow, which involves an interaction between the side cut, the edging angle, and the how the ski is de-cambered (changes in camber curve shape). De-cambering of the ski is greatly affected by weight distribution along the length of the ski, so fore-aft balance is very important in ski control.

While a bike is controlled by the lean angle and steering angle, weight distribution does not affect turn shape (as long as the tires aren't skidding).

[carpediemracing]

I've always approached descents in two ways: the high speed straight stuff and the cornery slower stuff.

The high speed straight stuff scares me because the speeds get really high. Plus I'm not really familiar/used to the bike's handling at those speeds. A long time ago I tried to take an "exit" (it wasn't a highway but the turn off at that point was basically just like an exit ramp) at 57 mph and the bike didn't want to move over much at all, it was like I was trying to turn in wet cement.

I love the cornery stuff. Just swish back and forth. For cornering it's all about cornering. If a rider understands cornering principles for flat roads then they'll be fine on a descent. There will be some minor adjustments for the grade, which result in higher entry speeds and typically greater acceleration throughout the turn, but that's all part of cornering dynamics.

Rote cornerers, those that sort of memorize the "right things to do", without understanding why, will be worse off than "principle cornerers", those that understand the broad cornering principles and then apply them.

A good cornerer ought to be able to do a virgin descent without much trouble, although they'll be slower than a rider experienced on the same descent. If following an experienced descender who is also a good cornerer, a "principle cornerer" should be able to match or even exceed the experienced descender.

[Davist]

a lot of good info here..

I say, weight outside pedal and inside hand in corners, on steep descents push weight back, overweighting the front leads to speed wobbles and some quirky/scary handling, and learn to read and follow the "fall line" (ski term for most direct path)

additionally, left turns are naturally (on public roads for right hand drivers like the US) off camber, which you don't notice until trying to turn at high speed, weighting the inside hand and pushing outside knee into top tube helps in this case.