Sub Compact Cranks

[Clancy]

As I get older.....

Actually, an aside. I mentioned to a riding buddy "Joe, I'm getting old". He replied, "You're not getting old, you are old" what are friends for?

Anyway, I am older and my knees seem to be getting older than the rest of me.

I've looked into sub compact cranks but seems the options are limited. And, can't seem to find anyone who carries them.

What sub compact cranks are out there? Anyone using them? Recommendations. Sources?

[AngryScientist]

white industries VBC. praxis makes one.

lots of mountain cranks will work too...

[chiasticon]

praxis and wickwerks would be where I'd look. I use wickwerks for cyclocross (44/34) and love 'em! they shift very very well.

I've also used the 44/34 combo for winter riding and had no problem keeping up with the guys on standard chainrings (granted, it was winter; so these were LSD rides, not hammerfests).

[guido]

The trouble with wikwerks approach is they don't go low enough on the small ring. Dropping the size of the big ring is nice but the small ring will be what you climb on.

The White industries VBC goes as low as you need... all the way down to 24. The 46-30 combo works very nicely for me. Highly recommended.

[eddief]

34/50 compact crank, Wolfworks Tanpan, long cage mt. derailleur, up to 42 cassette.

[bikinchris]

SRAM XX with a 42-28 setup might do. I've been looking for a set for my touring bike myself. Nice, light carbon cranks. They also make a 38/26 set.

[cp43]

Another possibility: Sugino OX (https://www.suginoltd.co.jp/us/products/road/ox.html)

[ColonelJLloyd]

First, I would understand what gears (especially high and low) will work for you or achieve your goals. Choose a metric (I like gear inches) and compare with what you have now and/or have been happy with in the past.

Then, use a gear calculator and suss out various combos of cassettes and chainrings keeping in mind the derailleurs required for each and how they will work with your frame and overall setup as well as steps/jumps between gears. I have ran many setups with big rings of 42-48 and small rings of 26-32 that allow the use of normal road rear mechs while offering really nice tight gear spacing only at the expense of the largest one (maybe two if you were rocking 52/11) gear(s) at the top. This makes so much sense for riding aside from racing or faster club rides.

The bike I'm riding the most wears a 42/28 carbon MTB crank with an 11-32 11s cassette. The range is about 105"-24".

In addition to what has been mentioned there is also Rene Herse reissue cranks as well as Specialties TA and Sun XCD cranks that you can customize with various available rings. Rotor also makes a 46/30 spidering.

SRAM XX with a 42-28 setup might do. I've been looking for a set for my touring bike myself. Nice, light carbon cranks. They also make a 38/26 set.

That's the one I use. It's light and stiff and even has a Q of 156, which works well for me. I think the smaller chainrings might be 39/26, actually.

[Bradford]

I'm old, have bad knees, and live in the mountains...the answer is a triple.

Pick up an Ultegra 6603/6604 crank, which has a 74 BCD. Then you can put whatever your heart desires on the granny and climb to your hearts content, just throw an XT M750 rear derailleur on and a chain catcher and you will be fine. I prefer riding with 52/39 combo and then using the granny as a bail out for climbing, which seems like a more civilized way to ride to me.

I run the standard 30 tooth small ring on one bike and 26s on three others. You could run a 24 if you wanted too, but the 26 with an 11-32 has been as much as I've needed, even climbing steep stuff in the foothills and major passes.

Yes, its heavier...but that isn't my problem. And yes, it has a wider Q, but I'm bigger and prefer a wider Q. And yes, the Rapha boys will make fun of you at the coffee shop, but I just smile and wave.

[zennmotion]

Another possibility: Sugino OX (https://www.suginoltd.co.jp/us/products/road/ox.html)

I'm quite happy with my Sugino OX901d compatible with shimano/campy 11speed drives. Lots of chainring options, mine is currently 32X48, I have another set of 30X46 rings that I've only used a few times. Shifting is flawless and avoids the necessity of huge cassettes out of spec from what Shimano/Campy drive trains were designed for. Unfortunately it's kind of pricey, the only easy source that I've found is Alex Cycles direct from Japan (either direct or via their Ebay store). I think it looks nice too- this is the "classic" model.

[8aaron8]

Ultegra 6800 has a 46/36 combo. On an 11spd drivetrain I think it shifts better than velo orange, IRD, and Sun cranks, can't speak for white industries.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Ultegra 6800 has a 46/30 combo.

Did not know that.

[AngryScientist]

Ultegra 6800 has a 46/30 combo.

Where did you get this information from. Can you direct me to any source to confirm that?

It appears to me that 34T is the smallest ring for 6800, but i would be happy to know otherwise!

http://bike.shimano.com/content/sac-bike/en/home/components11/road/ultegra1/fc-6800.html

[AngryScientist]

heres a shot of the backside of the 6800. dont think you're getting any smaller than 34 to fit...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-he807umHa6U/VWHPFXm05MI/AAAAAAAALJI/u6yKQ00XdZM/s1600/DSC_1392.JPG

[chiasticon]

The trouble with wikwerks approach is they don't go low enough on the small ring. Dropping the size of the big ring is nice but the small ring will be what you climb on.

The White industries VBC goes as low as you need... all the way down to 24. The 46-30 combo works very nicely for me. Highly recommended.24 is tiny. SUPER compact!

yeah Wickwerks only goes down to 41/33, BUT you can run that with a 110bcd crankset (using an adapter they sell). nice not to have to buy new cranks, but if the gearing isn't what you need, doesn't matter.

OP: as pointed out, the big thing is just determining what range you need. cassettes can get huge these days too. what are you currently running? what do you think you should be running?

[GScot]

Praxis has a couple of 32/48 crank options. And it's already been mentioned but Wolftooth Components will help you run a big cassette with either road or MTB derailleurs.

[Ti Designs]

The never ending quest for lower gears sounds horrible - I'm never getting old.

[marciero]

+1 on the Sugino OX 901, with 110 outer BCD and 74 inner. Outboard bearings, reasonably low Q, can use standard 5-bolt TA rings in any size you want. They are expensive though (I got mine used).

If you dont mind square taper and higher Q there are several options with older triples set up as a double. For years I used a Race Face triple crank this way on my rando bike. This had 110/74 BCD. To set up as a double, I used a TA middle ring as the outer ring, set up inside the spider. I used chainring spacers to space out the inner ring the correct amount for shifting. In fact, the Sugino also has the outer ring located inside the spider, and works best with middle ring as the outer

[jds108]

Another vote for the Sugino OX901. I have a new one from Alex's Cycle. Not cheap, but quality stuff. Another plus is that the crank+BB really appear to do a good job of sealing up the BB bearings - at least with the aftermarket bb I bought. The crank arms snug up against the bb so there isn't much of any way for contaminants to get in.

[saab2000]

I installed a 46-tooth Ultegra chainring onto my Indy Fab 'gravel bike'. This alone doesn't help with the lowest part of the range but it massively helps with riding the big ring more. I use an Ultegra 11-32 cassette.

I wish they made a Dura Ace version of this chainring. The plastic adapter pieces look lame.

To this end, Shimano ought to introduce a 'gravel group' or at least some chainrings that match their existing options. I'm thinking a 50x11 high gear is WAY more than most people would use and a 34x32 isn't really low enough for some conditions.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5581/30705313116_9503509d35_c.jpg

[Bostic]

Shimano doesn't have a crankset in the current 4 arm design for road that allows a 30t inner ring. 46/36 yes, but not 46/30. If that were the case Praxis would not have made such a splash with their 48/32 still on a 110mm bcd with special trickery to get the 32t to fit. Same with FSA and their upcoming adventure cranks with 48/32 or 46/30. The Sugino 110/74mm bcd were the only outboard bearing options for some time.

[KVN]

I use an OX601 from Sugino. It's cheaper than the 901 version, I think I paid $250 directly from Sugino Japan.

I'm running a 46/28 by 11/32 on my rando/all road/gravel thing, shifting with Sram Red FD. Love it.

[nalax]

Somehow I got older...68..and slower. I run 34-46 on my road bike but my gravel bike is 28-42, a SRAM Force 22 converted to a mtb spider and running 10 speed Campy in back. I don't have much of a high gear but I used to be a singlespeeder so I don't miss it.

[taylor_walker]

Hi, I/m not sure I understand your desired use or BB size, etc., but here goes:

I have used IRD's Defiant Wide Compact crankset with success. 46t/30t. Works with a threaded BB with JIS square taper. I bought mine at American Cyclery in San Francisco.

http://www.interlocracing.com/crank-arms-chainrings/defiant-wide-compact-road-crank-set

Best,

Taylor

[guido]

I like the IRD for 10 speed. But It doesn't look like it is correctly ramped for 11 speed so i have never tried it.

Which group are you using it with?

[Billybob62]

+1 on the IRD Cranks. I had a problem with the pinch bolts coming loose on the Sugino OX801 cranks. Torqued them to spec repeatedly. Curiously, their instructions tell you to check them "before and after each ride".....

[taylor_walker]

Sorry, I've only run the IRD on a 6-speed. Hadn't thought about how it runs on 10 or 11. Space, the final frontier (of my mind) ;-)

[Lovetoclimb]

34/50 compact crank, Wolfworks Tanpan, long cage mt. derailleur, up to 42 cassette.

I would go this route (as it will shift the best with Shimano 11s if that is what you are using). I took it a step lower by putting a 34t chainring on an Ultegra CX cassette 46/36 combo. Works gangbusters on my Soma Wolverine.

That said I have often found the need for even lower than a 34x42 and am looking into the WI stuff for the front gearing.

[Wayne77]

Isn't a sub-compact road crank just a regular old 110 BCD crank with 52/36 rings? (where a compact would typically by 50/34). If so, any old 110 BCD crank - Sram/Shimano/Campy/FSA/etc will do.

if this thread is about REALLY low gearing then and if you want to stay with a typical 110 BCD double ring road crank, its obviously about the cassette / der combo. If you have a Sram setup, the nice thing is their MTB and Road mechs have the same cable pull. So you can use a MTB long cage der to run a 36T cassette (maybe lower?). Not sure if this applies to 11 speed Sram stuff, but on my cross/gravel bike I'm running a Sram Red 10 speed group, 34/46 rings up front on a 110 BCD crank, 36T cassette with a Sram XX long cage mech. Works wonderfully. On a side note, somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you can use a Shimano MTB rear mech with Shimano road shifters...unless you use some device to accomodate for the different cable pull. Can't remember what its called.

Low gearing isn't just for old folks...the setup above is what I used for the Tushar Crusher gravel race this year, and I could have used a gear or two lower than the 34x36. The last climb in that race is BRUTAL...super steep and doesn't let up. Even the pros who do that race on CX or Gravel bikes run a 36T cassette...some even lower.

[eddief]

XTR cassette, XTR Shadow + r.d., and Tanpan.

I'm not suggesting that this wide setup leads to shifting better than standard corn cob stuff, but my transition has been from 6603 triple stuff with 9 speed mountain r.d. I can say that this combo does have the most positive feel shifting I have experienced. I think this is mostly the 6800 shifters. But how well these low geared parts work together sorta blows my mind...in a good way.

I would go this route (as it will shift the best with Shimano 11s if that is what you are using). I took it a step lower by putting a 34t chainring on an Ultegra CX cassette 46/36 combo. Works gangbusters on my Soma Wolverine.

That said I have often found the need for even lower than a 34x42 and am looking into the WI stuff for the front gearing.

[oldpotatoe]

As I get older.....

Actually, an aside. I mentioned to a riding buddy "Joe, I'm getting old". He replied, "You're not getting old, you are old" what are friends for?

Anyway, I am older and my knees seem to be getting older than the rest of me.

I've looked into sub compact cranks but seems the options are limited. And, can't seem to find anyone who carries them.

What sub compact cranks are out there? Anyone using them? Recommendations. Sources?

Find a triple crank, use one ring on middle position held on with short(track) chainring bolts and small ring. With a 130/74mm bcd you can 'make' an anything down to 38 and anything down to about 26 tooth.

[cp43]

Isn't a sub-compact road crank just a regular old 110 BCD crank with 52/36 rings? (where a compact would typically by 50/34). If so, any old 110 BCD crank - Sram/Shimano/Campy/FSA/etc will do.

if this thread is about REALLY low gearing then and if you want to stay with a typical 110 BCD double ring road crank, its obviously about the cassette / der combo. If you have a Sram setup, the nice thing is their MTB and Road mechs have the same cable pull. So you can use a MTB long cage der to run a 36T cassette (maybe lower?). Not sure if this applies to 11 speed Sram stuff, but on my cross/gravel bike I'm running a Sram Red 10 speed group, 34/46 rings up front on a 110 BCD crank, 36T cassette with a Sram XX long cage mech. Works wonderfully. On a side note, somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think you can use a Shimano MTB rear mech with Shimano road shifters...unless you use some device to accomodate for the different cable pull. Can't remember what its called.

Low gearing isn't just for old folks...the setup above is what I used for the Tushar Crusher gravel race this year, and I could have used a gear or two lower than the 34x36. The last climb in that race is BRUTAL...super steep and doesn't let up. Even the pros who do that race on CX or Gravel bikes run a 36T cassette...some even lower.

I've always heard of the 52-36 as mid-compact.

I think that what people are talking about here when refering to sub-compact is a double with a small ring of less than 34 teeth. So, something with a small ring BCD of less than 110mm.

Regarding Shimano road and MTB shifters and derailleurs. You are correct for 10 speed and above. For anything up to 9 speed MTB, and 10 speed road, you can mix and match any Shimano shifters and derailleurs, expect 8 speed Dura-ace.

[vqdriver]

i'm using an xtr 44/30 and it works great with 11sp drivetrain.
the cassette isn't crazy wide range so i still get smaller jumps in the rear while getting an overall lower usable gear range. fwiw, i don't have any problems keeping up in groups. i suspect most people don't cruise on the bigger gears for very long anyway.

[Bostic]

+1 on the IRD Cranks. I had a problem with the pinch bolts coming loose on the Sugino OX801 cranks. Torqued them to spec repeatedly. Curiously, their instructions tell you to check them "before and after each ride".....

I looked at the .pdf on the Sugino site. That would really piss me off at the price of the 801 and 901 series. They don't appear to be like Shimano where the plastic piece simply does preload and the two 5mm bolts keep the left crank arm on the spindle.

https://www.suginoltd.co.jp/us/products/road/pdf/MA-OX(M5_bolt)(JP%20EN)20150501.pdf

[NHAero]

I think the smallest chainring that fits on a 110 mm BCD is a 33T TA that Peter White Cycles sells. I have old style Sugino AT cranksets on a couple of bikes, including my Anderson, running 48-36-24 with a 13-30 9 speed cassette, giving 100" - 22" range. What is particularly useful is I don't need the 24T here on MV because the 36-30 gives a 32" low gear. The cranks use a square taper BB and I use Phil Wood so chainline is dialed in. These have quite a narrow Q factor which is why I have stayed with them through many years. I use the TA Zephyr ramped and pinned chainrings. There are usually several sets of the Sugino AT cranks on eBay.

I don't know if there is anything about the chainring spacing on this older crankset that would cause sub-optimal shifting with 10 or 11 speed drivetrains.

[8aaron8]

Where did you get this information from. Can you direct me to any source to confirm that?

It appears to me that 34T is the smallest ring for 6800, but i would be happy to know otherwise!

http://bike.shimano.com/content/sac-bike/en/home/components11/road/ultegra1/fc-6800.html

Sorry made a mistake there, I guess it's 46/36, hopes are dashed...

[Louis]

You can have my 9-spd Shimano triple cranks when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

(apologies to Charlton Heston)

[zennmotion]

I looked at the .pdf on the Sugino site. That would really piss me off at the price of the 801 and 901 series. They don't appear to be like Shimano where the plastic piece simply does preload and the two 5mm bolts keep the left crank arm on the spindle.

https://www.suginoltd.co.jp/us/products/road/pdf/MA-OX(M5_bolt)(JP%20EN)20150501.pdf

No problem here with my 901d and it's been more than a year now. They're assembled in the same way with the preload as 11sp Shimano if I recall correctly, although the "pressure bolt" is more substantial and they recommend re-tightening it once the pinch bolts are tightened- but I have minimum torque on it (using my elbow as gauge, I only use a torque wrench with stems and seatposts). They do specify no grease, and equal torque on both bolts, tighten alternatively, nothing different.

[zennmotion]

I don't know if there is anything about the chainring spacing on this older crankset that would cause sub-optimal shifting with 10 or 11 speed drivetrains.

The difference is the thickness of the chainrings, not the spacing between. It probably works, maybe less than perfect, may not matter depending on riding style and demands (torque) a rider puts on the drivetrain during shifts.

[Mark McM]

Find a triple crank, use one ring on middle position held on with short(track) chainring bolts and small ring. With a 130/74mm bcd you can 'make' an anything down to 38 and anything down to about 26 tooth.

Two potential issues:

1) Some double front derailleurs may not retract far enough inward for the inner chainring of the granny. In which case you'd either have to use a triple front derailleur (and possibly the accompanying triple shifter); or space the crank outward from the frame (with some BB or crank types, this may not be possible).

2) Triples generally have a wider Q factor than double cranks. For those whose legs prefer narrow Q factors, this would be undesirable.

These are the reasons that the sub-compact cranks were developed - the same gearing as the inner 2 chainrings of a triple, with the chainline and Q-factor of a double.

[ColonelJLloyd]

In addition to Mark's points I think that 10s and 11s cassettes have negated the usefulness of triples. 18-20 combos is plenty for anyone.

[gdw]

Just buy an older quality mtb crank with a 5 arm 94mm bolt circle and run it as a double. TA and other manufacturers offer chairnrings from 29 to 50t. If you're concerned about the Q factor look for some old Ritcheys or Suntour XCs and buy a narrower bottom bracket.

[SlowPokePete]

Rene Herse.

SPP

[guido]

The difference is the thickness of the chainrings, not the spacing between. It probably works, maybe less than perfect, may not matter depending on riding style and demands (torque) a rider puts on the drivetrain during shifts.

Not in my experience. I tried to use the VO 50.4 crankset on an 11speed Shimano drivetrain. On occasion with a front downshift the chain would slip between the chainrings and get quite solidly stuck. Quite inconvenient at the wrong moment! The IRD looks to me like it would suffer the same issue so I never have tried it.

Never happens with the WI VBC crank which has ramps built into the spacers between the rings. Chain slides over them and down onto the ring.

[choke]

3 pages and no one has mentioned a TA Pro 5 Vis?

[Waldo]

TA Carmina (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/carmina-compact.php) comes with a replaceable spider, and, with a 94mm bcd spider you can go as low as 29 teeth. I have this crank on several bikes in 30-46 and 33-48 configurations and am very happy with it.

[ColonelJLloyd]

3 pages and no one has mentioned a TA Pro 5 Vis?

Post #8.

[sg8357]

The IRD 94bcd works well with 10s, Shimano d/t shifters.
The Sugino OX801, works well with 10s, Shimano bar-con shifters.
Both bikes use CX-70 front mechs.

Stronglight 49d with TA 10s rings works great with a
Simplex Competition lever mech, quieter than an Ergo triple.

Note the OX801 is the 2nd version, with thick spindle and bigger pinch bolts.
Stays tight, I do use a torque wrench.

[marciero]

I looked at the .pdf on the Sugino site. That would really piss me off at the price of the 801 and 901 series. They don't appear to be like Shimano where the plastic piece simply does preload and the two 5mm bolts keep the left crank arm on the spindle.

https://www.suginoltd.co.jp/us/products/road/pdf/MA-OX(M5_bolt)(JP%20EN)20150501.pdf

Indeed. Zenmotions remarks notwithstanding, In hindsight I would temper my earlier comments. Functionally the crank works fine but it seems odd to have the "pressure bolt" play a role in holding the arms on. I found that out here (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=206274). I ended up using loctite on the pressure bolt threads for good measure too.

[dmurphey]

Another possibility: Sugino OX (https://www.suginoltd.co.jp/us/products/road/ox.html)

I have explored many of the options outlined above without satisfaction. I like my Campy Chorus road set up. I got a Sugino OX 901 w 48, 32 rings, subcompact crank with tubular moddle, and a Shimano bottom bracket for hollow-what ever, and it all works great. I got mine from Japan via Ebay. ~$400. I am a happy old dude climbing hills now.

[marciero]

TA Carmina (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/carmina-compact.php) comes with a replaceable spider, and, with a 94mm bcd spider you can go as low as 29 teeth. I have this crank on several bikes in 30-46 and 33-48 configurations and am very happy with it.

Again square taper, but the TA stuff is very nice. Everything is a la carte though-arms, spider, rings, maybe even the bolts- so it ends up being very expensive.

[doomridesout]

OK, so here's a nutty twist- is there such a thing as a 46/30 crank-based power meter?

[gdw]

Probably not. Most of the folks looking for sensible gearing tend to be a little less interested in tracking their effort than other segments of the road cycling community.

[ColonelJLloyd]

OK, so here's a nutty twist- is there such a thing as a 46/30 crank-based power meter?

Rotor with 46/30 spidering (https://r2-bike.com/ROTOR-Chainring-Double-Direct-Mount-Spidering-2-speed-46-30-Teeth-for-Rotor-Crank).

[guido]

Rotor with 46/30 spidering (https://r2-bike.com/ROTOR-Chainring-Double-Direct-Mount-Spidering-2-speed-46-30-Teeth-for-Rotor-Crank).

Doesn't that look sweet! Thanks for the link! :beer:

[Billybob62]

Indeed. Zenmotions remarks notwithstanding, In hindsight I would temper my earlier comments. Functionally the crank works fine but it seems odd to have the "pressure bolt" play a role in holding the arms on. I found that out here (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=206274). I ended up using loctite on the pressure bolt threads for good measure too.

So, loctite on the spindle bolt solved the problem for you?