Bike store said Moots was nothing special..hmm

[jasonification]

Visiting my folks in Singapore and decided to visit a local bike store. Noticed they stocked Bianchi but had a customer's Moots tucked away in the corner and I made a comment about it.

The store person replied, "oh Moots? Yeah we don't like them. They're nothing special."

Was honestly kind of shocked, but I guess Moots isn't quite as known here..

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[Blown Reek]

Visiting my folks in Singapore and decided to visit a local bike store. Noticed they stocked Bianchi but had a customer's Moots tucked away in the corner and I made a comment about it.

The store person replied, "oh Moots? Yeah we don't like them. They're nothing special."

Was honestly kind of shocked, but I guess Moots isn't quite as known here..

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk

When it comes down to it, is a Moots really any better than a Firefly, or a Seven, or an Eriksen, or a Baum, or a 22 Bicycles, or a Kish, or an Enigma, or a Sage, or even a Lynskey?

No. But if you identify with it for whatever reason, they're something unique. Steel frames ain't much different, either.

[dekindy]

A lot of reviewers are saying that the newer endurance road bikes ride very comfortably, like steel frame bikes, and if they have only stocked standard geometry and not done custom, I could easily understand that statement. No longer can us steel and titanium riders feel sorry for riders on rough riding carbon frames It is the dying truth.

[AngryScientist]

i wouldnt find that too surprising, or read much into it either. they're a bianchi dealer, their job is to make you think the only special bikes are bianchis

[weisan]

As a Singaporean living abroard in the US, my guess is by "special" they mean brand recognition. There are more Mercedes Benz in Singapore than anywhere else on the planet except maybe China. If you want more people to "see" you or pay attention to what you are driving, you would choose the Benz over say, a Jaguar.
Same here with the Moots, a Bianchi or a Colnago would draw more attention.
Obviously, if you are a "sophisticated" customer, you would look beyond just brand recognition. And sometimes you would even opt to get something different so that you are not the tenth guy who rolled up to the start line with a Specialized or a Trek, not that there's anything wrong with them.

Status symbol.

In a nutshell.

[bikinchris]

If he doesn't sell them, he's not going to admit they are well made bikes.

[jasonification]

As a Singaporean living abroard in the US, my guess is by "special" they mean brand recognition. There are more Mercedes Benz in Singapore than anywhere else on the planet except maybe China. If you want more people to "see" you or pay attention to what you are driving, you would choose the Benz over say, a Jaguar.
Same here with the Moots, a Bianchi or a Colnago would draw more attention.
Obviously, if you are a "sophisticated" customer, you would look beyond just brand recognition. And sometimes you would even opt to get something different so that you are not the tenth guy who rolled up to the start line with a Specialized or a Trek, not that there's anything wrong with them.

Status symbol.

In a nutshell.

That was my thought as well after thinking about it. Now that I recall, they did have a Colnago in the repair stand while I was there. Seemed like the guy I talked to did not know that Moots was made in America.

[redir]

Did you point out that stack of dimes? Oh yeah, they don't what dimes are either :D

[fuzzalow]

Can't go through life worried or concerned about what anybody thinks. Least of all before knowing anything about what and who they are and where they are coming from. He's a bike shop that doesn't sell Mootses, whadya expect him to say?

[happycampyer]

Did you point out that stack of dimes? Oh yeah, they don't what dimes are either :D

They refer to Moots' welds as perfectly aligned caning lashes.

[Tickdoc]

Shame because it seems the perfect solution to the heat and humidity that exists there.

[oldpotatoe]

When it comes down to it, is a Moots really any better than a Firefly, or a Seven, or an Eriksen, or a Baum, or a 22 Bicycles, or a Kish, or an Enigma, or a Sage, or even a Lynskey?

No. But if you identify with it for whatever reason, they're something unique. Steel frames ain't much different, either.

I think you'd have to ask the sales person if they thought if FF, 7, Erikson, Baum, 22, Kish, Enigma, Sage, Lynskey were 'nothing special' either. I don't think Bianchi is anything special, either..:D

[Blown Reek]

Nothing is special.

Except Specialized.

[buddybikes]

So were they selling it for same price as a Bianci - could strike a great deal

[veggieburger]

i wouldnt find that too surprising, or read much into it either. they're a bianchi dealer, their job is to make you think the only special bikes are bianchis

bingo.

[sales guy]

You gotta remember why he said that.

In Asia, anything Italian even if it isn't MADE in Italy is still more coveted.
In Italy, they want German products.
In America, it's a mix.
In Britain, it's more British made than anything.

So for his comment of nothing special, not surprised given where the question was posed.

[holliscx]

He was alluding to Moots geometry

[sparky33]

So were they selling it for same price as a Bianci - could strike a great deal


One man's trash is another man's treasure. Too bad that man is on the other side of the planet from most of us.

It reminds me of a California guy who told me about letting avocados rot on the ground so he and friends could throw them at each other, back when they were kids. They sell here in my grocery for $3 each.

[pdmtong]

We could flip this around and ask what makes Moots "special"

(+)
- great welds
- proven geometry
- tubing specially drawn to Moots spec?
- legacy

(-)/(undifferentiated)
- straight tubing
- custom geometry and options very expensive

There are now plenty of small and medium size builders who excel in titanium fabrication. What are the compelling reasons to purchase Moots over titanium alternatives?

Saying Moots is "nothing special" (versus other ti, versus other bikes?) could be the shop feeling, could be the bluntness often associated with non-native speakers, could be the lack of awareness. Moots isn't exactly a dominant brand in Asia.

OTOH...Independent Fabrication sells a lot in Asia. I spoke to Gary at NAHBS a few years ago and he said a large portion of their production goes overseas.

Disclaimer: This is more of a rhetorical question not meant to ignite a debate with the passionate alligator crowd

[bikinchris]

Sometimes, they might really not know any better. I worked in a shop and all I bought was Cannondale. Until Cdale decided to cross me. I bought a Serotta Ti. I couldn't believe how much better the Serotta was at everything compared to my Cdale.

[hellvetica]

They do have a point.

[fuzzalow]

This entire thread can be summed up in the french expression: Pfft.

[ERK55]

I've owned Moots, Firefly, No22, Strong, and IF.
They're more similar than different.
They're all nice.

[jasonification]

Sometimes, they might really not know any better. I worked in a shop and all I bought was Cannondale. Until Cdale decided to cross me. I bought a Serotta Ti. I couldn't believe how much better the Serotta was at everything compared to my Cdale.
I kinda think this might be the case. When I mentioned it was MUSA it kind of looked like he didn't know that (despite the "made in the rockies" vinyl on the chainstay). Ohwell. No skin offa my back!

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[hokoman]

I've owned Moots, Firefly, No22, Strong, and IF.
They're more similar than different.
They're all nice.

Those are all very different from a Bianchi.

[froze]

When it comes down to it, is a Moots really any better than a Firefly, or a Seven, or an Eriksen, or a Baum, or a 22 Bicycles, or a Kish, or an Enigma, or a Sage, or even a Lynskey?

No. But if you identify with it for whatever reason, they're something unique. Steel frames ain't much different, either.

This is very true. The bike's geometry will mostly dictate how it will ride, there is an obvious difference in ride quality between materials, but the geometry within a particular material will dictate the ride, as does tire width.

I have a TI bike it rides better for comfort than all my steel bikes except for my steel touring bike that actually is noticeably better for comfort, but why is that? The ti and other steel bikes all have either 23 or 25mm wide tire, the touring bike has 32mm wide tires with less psi, I use 75 on the rear and 50 on the front. So in this case the psi makes the difference in ride quality; to check this I put in 110 psi on the rear and 90 on the front on my touring tires like I do with my 23mm tires on my other bikes and I was back to having that same feel harsher feel as the narrow tires have. So something as minor as tire pressure can make a huge difference.

I want to throw in another TI bike built by ORO out of Taiwan for Motobecane, this frame is the lowest costing frame/bike you can buy, Bikes Direct sells them. The welds on the ORO are as good as any I've seen. I have a friend who bought the top of the line Moto about 8 years ago and I got to ride it vs a very expensive Serotta with swayed rear seat stays, and my own Lynskey; the Serotta was the most comfortable by a small margin due to it's swayed seat stays, however the Serotta CF fork seemed noodly to me as did the Moto, whereas my Enve 2.0 fork was noticeably more surefooted, the other two guys who also rode mine noted the same thing. The Moto guy last summer replaced his fork with the Enve 2.0 due to riding mine and now it's a very difficult comparison between his and my bike. I would have bought the Moto myself because I test rode it before I got the Lynskey several times along with the Serotta, but when I went to buy there were none in stock and after many calls and waiting about a year and half thinking they weren't coming back I found a sale on a Lynskey Peloton and bought it instead. The Moto for the average rider is an excellent deal out of the box, improvements can be made perhaps at a later date, or right away if you sell the still unused stuff like the fork and the wheels on CL. Bikes Direct use to sell just the frame and fork for $999 not sure if they still do. The wheels on the Moto are low end heavy Mavic wheels but they are very durable for the street. I haven't been able to find one frame returned due to breaking on the internet for the Moto road bike either. I noticed to that Bike Direct listed weights are about 1/2 pound lower than actual weight.

With names like Moots, Seven, IF, etc, by and large you're paying for the name. In fact I can guarantee you that almost all the TI welders that work for all those places that build ti frames in the US have at one time or another worked for at least one other competition TI builder, so to say one welds is better than another isn't true since they have switched allegiances at least a couple of times; this could result in say, for example only, that Moots has the best welds and Lynskey does not, but the welder that use to work at Moots went to Lynskey so the welds and there was a swap, so the welds would have to be the same. Looking at Serotta welds vs Lynskey, vs Motobecane I couldn't perceive any difference between the three, they were all very well done; but company marketing would lead you to believe theirs is the best.

here are some weld examples: the first one is Lynskey on their lower end older Silver series which is what my Peloton is: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7265/6945779840_efa488403c_c.jpg

The next one is a Moots weld: http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/tech/moots/mootsrsl-bbwelds.jpg

Bespoke weld: http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.imdserve.com/images/news/2014/02/07/1391809721919-11meh56z5a4wk-630-354.jpg (not sure about the thin welding being very durable though).

Seven weld: http://forums.mtbr.com/attachments/frame-building/312786d1195621684-beautiful-welds-thread-bb-welds.jpg

Ericsen weld: http://kenteriksen.com/wp-content/uploads/11986582_1065577020143426_5195198252051622409_n.jp g

Litespeed weld: http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/reviews/blade05/lg/bladeseatmast.JPG

Habanero weld done in China: http://img323.imageshack.us/img323/5194/bottombracket22yx.jpg

Lastly the low cost Motobecane weld done in Taiwan: http://imgur.com/BVGCTmv

[Clean39T]

Peeps are interested in different things for different reasons. Get what blows your hair back. No right answer.

[froze]

Peeps are interested in different things for different reasons. Get what blows your hair back. No right answer.

yup

[pdmtong]

This is very true. The bike's geometry will mostly dictate how it will ride, there is an obvious difference in ride quality between materials, but the geometry within a particular material will dictate the ride, as does tire width.

In addition to all the factors you name, the tubing diameter and placement of the tube in the frame structure matters.

I had a reynolds 953 stainless and it rode very different from the columbus XcR stainless I have now. same wheels. both "stock" geometry.

The diameters and placement could be the final differentiation between ti builders. perhaps steel builders too.

[bikinchris]

Those are all very different from a Bianchi.

Indeed. They are actually built straight. No mass produced bike is actually built to be straight. At least I have never found one. I always check every frame for alignment when I unbox it. (Sorry, Serotta story) Once I had the factory reo in the shop when I was unboxing a Serotta. It was the worst built Serotta I had ever seen. The rear triangle was off by about 1mm. The rep was livid. He had me box it back and took it while he called and had them build a new frame ASAP.

Your average Trek, Bianchi, Specialized etc, will be out a lot more than 2mm and be considered in specification.

[joosttx]

Visiting my folks in Singapore and decided to visit a local bike store. Noticed they stocked Bianchi but had a customer's Moots tucked away in the corner and I made a comment about it.

The store person replied, "oh Moots? Yeah we don't like them. They're nothing special."

Was honestly kind of shocked, but I guess Moots isn't quite as known here..

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk

#truthbomb

[sales guy]

Since someone showed off welds, here's one of our Excel frames. You can see the heat marks- barely see them that is. This was taken a few minutes after Joe tigged it up.

Super nice welds.

[Clean39T]

since someone showed off welds, here's one of our excel frames. You can see the heat marks- barely see them that is. This was taken a few minutes after joe tigged it up.



Super nice welds.



#nsfw

[bikinchris]

#nsfw

schwing!

[sales guy]

I've joked with Joe how he needs to do a really incredible weld set on a frame. Even if it's for someone so we have it for NAHBS. I mean, as you can see they are incredible. But They leave! They go off to customers and then we don't have a specific frame to enter into the Tig Competition. And Erikson has won so many times. I don't even think any one else enters cause they ALWAYS WIN! I want that title! I mean, I want all of them of course. But it would be awesome to have that one for Joe.

[Frankwurst]

To me no bike is special. They are friggin bicycles. I ride steel bikes but that's what I like. If Ti, aluminum or carbon fiber is what get's your ya ya's out then rock and roll with one of those. The only bike that is special is the one YOU like.:beer:

[hokoman]

Just looking at my instagram feed - singapore, moots and rapha. I can appreciate all bikes but Moots vs Bianchi still isn't a comparison - unless we rewind 20 years.

[colker]

"Visiting my folks in Singapore and decided to visit a local bike store. Noticed they stocked Bianchi but had a customer's Moots tucked away in the corner and I made a comment about it.

The store person replied, "oh Moots? Yeah we don't like them. They're nothing special."

Was honestly kind of shocked, but I guess Moots isn't quite as known here..

Sent from my D6653 using Tapatalk "

Oh my... Thanks for posting this.