Porte's fall - how much is the bike to blame?

[Stuart]

Richie is building an unfortunate reputation as a less confident and competent descender. I'm not going to criticise him - he's got way more balls than I have and his falls have been horrific. Confidence, skill and luck, given road conditions, are clearly key factors in any fall. But how much can the handling characteristics of a bike be to blame?

Richie rides a very small frame - a 48cm. I'm using rough memory here, so may err, but I recall that the front end of Richie's bike has a head tube angle of about 70.5 and, coupled with the fork rake, comes to a trail in the mid 70's. From my limited experience, when I ride a bike with anything near that, I found it to be very stable in a straight line but a complete pig to turn into corners. It's something you adapt to, but I got rid of that bike after I rode a Merckx Corsa 01 and found that cornering could be so much more fun. One bike (the Merckx) gave me flexibility and confidence to handle corners, and the other didn't.

I know there are other factors at play, I could mention the now standard short rear stays as another point worth discussion. I'd like to hear thoughts on whether compromises in small bike geometry may be contributing to issues that Richie (and others) may have.

[e-RICHIE]

He cooked a turn in the road. It's a racing tactic/head thing not a bicycle design thing.

[rnhood]

Agree, he overcooked the turn. We have seen quite a few pro's overcook descents and pay the price. Rarely is it the bikes fault.

[Llewellyn]

Richie is building an unfortunate reputation as a less confident and competent descender. I'm not going to criticise him - he's got way more balls than I have and his falls have been horrific. Confidence, skill and luck, given road conditions, are clearly key factors in any fall. But how much can the handling characteristics of a bike be to blame?

Richie rides a very small frame - a 48cm. I'm using rough memory here, so may err, but I recall that the front end of Richie's bike has a head tube angle of about 70.5 and, coupled with the fork rake, comes to a trail in the mid 70's. From my limited experience, when I ride a bike with anything near that, I found it to be very stable in a straight line but a complete pig to turn into corners. It's something you adapt to, but I got rid of that bike after I rode a Merckx Corsa 01 and found that cornering could be so much more fun. One bike (the Merckx) gave me flexibility and confidence to handle corners, and the other didn't.

I know there are other factors at play, I could mention the now standard short rear stays as another point worth discussion. I'd like to hear thoughts on whether compromises in small bike geometry may be contributing to issues that Richie (and others) may have.

Oh FFS.

[colker]

Richie is building an unfortunate reputation as a less confident and competent descender. I'm not going to criticise him - he's got way more balls than I have and his falls have been horrific. Confidence, skill and luck, given road conditions, are clearly key factors in any fall. But how much can the handling characteristics of a bike be to blame?

Richie rides a very small frame - a 48cm. I'm using rough memory here, so may err, but I recall that the front end of Richie's bike has a head tube angle of about 70.5 and, coupled with the fork rake, comes to a trail in the mid 70's. From my limited experience, when I ride a bike with anything near that, I found it to be very stable in a straight line but a complete pig to turn into corners. It's something you adapt to, but I got rid of that bike after I rode a Merckx Corsa 01 and found that cornering could be so much more fun. One bike (the Merckx) gave me flexibility and confidence to handle corners, and the other didn't.

I know there are other factors at play, I could mention the now standard short rear stays as another point worth discussion. I'd like to hear thoughts on whether compromises in small bike geometry may be contributing to issues that Richie (and others) may have.

huh... no.

[sandyrs]

Lol

[Cicli]

Its no doubt the bikes fault. Its always the bikes fault when I carsh or am slow. Seeing is he is 100x better at this than me, it is 100x more his bikes fault.

[velotrack]

What's wrong with you guys? Seems like he's asking a valid question. Jeez.

[ergott]

I ride a bike with 71.5 deg and 43mm rake. It's different, but I know how to handle it in high speed turns. His crashes have nothing to do with the bike.

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[PaMtbRider]

What's wrong with you guys? Seems like he's asking a valid question. Jeez.



The answer to his valid question is the bike is not even a little bit at fault.


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[berserk87]

Wise cracks aside, I would say that he has ridden a bike of this size and dimensions as his full-time job for at least a couple of years (since he has been on team BMC). Why would an issue with handling manifest itself now and not dozens of times prior to this? He rode the same descent in the Dauphne with no crashing.

I'd say that he got pinned on the inside line through that turn and went off of the edge of the road. As others have said, the bike was not the problem in this case.

[happycampyer]

It's not about the bike.

[BobO]

When you mess up in s-turns, you rarely wreck in the turn you messed up. It usually takes two or three turns to really catch you out. Based on the fact that he was noticeably faster than everyone else, Richie had apparently screwed up an entry earlier by carrying too much speed and it caught up to him at that point. He missed the prior apex and exit so badly that he had to turn right to get to the apex on a left hander. It's possible that he hit a wet patch and lost braking efficiency, but, I would have expected other riders to suffer the same error and we didn't see that.

This was apparently pilot error, 100%.

[pdmtong]

There was a shot of his bike during an earlier broadcast - it was a 47. A 47!!

[enr1co]

It's not about the bike.

Nor the size of the bike.

[rustychisel]

When you mess up in s-turns, you rarely wreck in the turn you messed up. It usually takes two or three turns to really catch you out. Based on the fact that he was noticeably faster than everyone else, Richie had apparently screwed up an entry earlier by carrying too much speed and it caught up to him at that point. He missed the prior apex and exit so badly that he had to turn right to get to the apex on a left hander. It's possible that he hit a wet patch and lost braking efficiency, but, I would have expected other riders to suffer the same error and we didn't see that.

This was apparently pilot error, 100%.

Good analysis, and agreed. The road was definitely damp and slick in the shade there, and Richie was carrying speed... and Aru essentially checked him by braking in front. Richie locked the rear tyre and an instinctive over-correct took his front wheel off the tarmac.

[cmg]

"a 48cm. I'm using rough memory here, so may err, but I recall that the front end of Richie's bike has a head tube angle of about 70.5 and, coupled with the fork rake, comes to a trail in the mid 70's."

Serotta would sell small size frames with a 50-52mm rake fork to reduce the trail. i would like to think that a team that would spend that kind of money to bring a team to the tour would have the sense to build custom or would know how to reduce trail on a small frame. common knowledge. richie overcooked the corner at 45mph and had a horrific crash.

[ultraman6970]

You cant tell from the videos if he locked the rear wheel, to me he went straight off the road, at that point sure he did not press the brakes, no rider in his sane judgement will even touch the brakes once the bike is gonzo, you just close your eyes and wait for the best.

Pilot error IMO.

[enr1co]

There was a shot of his bike during an earlier broadcast - it was a 47. A 47!!

Hmmm... Cav also rides a smaller sized frame -49 cm so perhaps there is something to smaller frames that makes the more prone to crashing ;)

[Mr. Pink]

Sagan wouldn't have crashed. But, if he did, he wouldn't blame the bike.

He could descend better than some of these guys on an old Schwinn Sting Ray.

[BobO]

You cant tell from the videos if he locked the rear wheel, to me he went straight off the road, at that point sure he did not press the brakes, no rider in his sane judgement will even touch the brakes once the bike is gonzo, you just close your eyes and wait for the best.

Pilot error IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gK1VG8UtXM

Just found this, Richie claims he locked the rear and went straight through. Based on how far out of position he is when the video begins, I'd estimate it was the prior turn he locked up on entry.

[bigreen505]

In general I would agree with everyone that it's the rider not the bike, but after having one bike that really liked to go straight, I'd say it's a factor. However, at this level of sport, and given that he is the team's GC leader, I'd have to think they would go to any length to get him a proper handling bike.

[rustychisel]

given that he is the team's GC leader, I'd have to think they would go to any length to get him a proper handling bike.


I think you'd have to concede this, agreed. Not to mention the time he's spent on the bikes learning their characteristics.

[joosttx]

Richie is building an unfortunate reputation as a less confident and competent descender. I'm not going to criticise ....

uh, you just did...

[Elefantino]

The bike should be to blame as much as the mountain is to blame.

[rustychisel]

The bike should be to blame as much as the mountain is to blame.

Ah, now I know who you are, Donald. Your style is unmistakable. :rolleyes:

[93KgBike]

The bike should be to blame as much as the mountain is to blame.

So it's true? LIGO got another ping right before the crash? Amazed we aren't all crashing and falling what with everything changing shape constantly.

[fogrider]

nothing wrong with this bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHl5w5ppioE


Richie is building an unfortunate reputation as a less confident and competent descender. I'm not going to criticise him - he's got way more balls than I have and his falls have been horrific. Confidence, skill and luck, given road conditions, are clearly key factors in any fall. But how much can the handling characteristics of a bike be to blame?

Richie rides a very small frame - a 48cm. I'm using rough memory here, so may err, but I recall that the front end of Richie's bike has a head tube angle of about 70.5 and, coupled with the fork rake, comes to a trail in the mid 70's. From my limited experience, when I ride a bike with anything near that, I found it to be very stable in a straight line but a complete pig to turn into corners. It's something you adapt to, but I got rid of that bike after I rode a Merckx Corsa 01 and found that cornering could be so much more fun. One bike (the Merckx) gave me flexibility and confidence to handle corners, and the other didn't.

I know there are other factors at play, I could mention the now standard short rear stays as another point worth discussion. I'd like to hear thoughts on whether compromises in small bike geometry may be contributing to issues that Richie (and others) may have.

[holliscx]

Richie is not known as a good descender. He was at his limit pushing that extra bit to stay with the group. Had he been solo descending at his own pace he probably wouldn't have cooked the corner. Had this been POTUS however the WH is reporting this would have been the bicycle's fault.

[Bruce K]

Let's keep away from the politics guys.:help:

It's a guaranteed way to get a thread closed.:banana:

BK

[marciero]

...

Serotta would sell small size frames with a 50-52mm rake fork to reduce the trail. i would like to think that a team that would spend that kind of money to bring a team to the tour would have the sense to build custom or would know how to reduce trail on a small frame. common knowledge...


Not so sure about that. This aint the days of 7-Eleven, or of Lance. Not sure if this is comparable but I recall the women's time trial world champion a couple of years ago riding an unbranded custom bike because the sponsor could not or would not provide a bike that fit. Not the Tour but this is a woman at the pinnacle of the sport. (Searched and could not find the reference)
Carbon is less customizable. Not sure but I would bet they dont do separate layups or even custom geo for every rider like Serotta did with 7-Eleven. I doubt they are doing one-off forks. Another thing is that you are limited in the amount of rake with a carbon fork. 50 seems to be about the limit. Seven has 50 or maybe a 52 but I think even that is sort of a hack with repositioning of the dropouts.

[mcteague]

It didn't help that they were very bunched up on that decent. Considering how steep and twisty it was it may have been better if they stretched the group out a bit. Guess they didn't want to take any chances of losing contact.

Tim

[shovelhd]

Zero.

[ultraman6970]

This is just insane, wonder how fast he must have been going...

I do not know if somebody mentioned this, at the begining there was an analysis about the trail and how the RP handles and stuff, that the bike would be hard to steer... what happens is that this dudes use a longer stem, they compensate the lack of steering (per say) in the bike by using a longer stem, in a 47 frame RP must be using at least a 12 cm stem if not even more, at that point the bike will handle even quicker, you have to steer less to move the bike. Colnago does the same thing in some models like the dream and the c40s...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gK1VG8UtXM

Just found this, Richie claims he locked the rear and went straight through. Based on how far out of position he is when the video begins, I'd estimate it was the prior turn he locked up on entry.

[ultraman6970]

Remember that the french was there and dropped them, at that level if you give a second behind there is a chance that second becomes 2 or 5 seconds at the next 2 corners and then you dont see the guy again, like it happened with the ag2r guy. All of them were thinking in attacking big time for sure.

I do not know if a video of lemond dropping guys off his wheel going in a straight downhill in the tube... it is impressive.

It didn't help that they were very bunched up on that decent. Considering how steep and twisty it was it may have been better if they stretched the group out a bit. Guess they didn't want to take any chances of losing contact.

Tim

[wallymann]

He cooked a turn in the road. It's a racing tactic/head thing not a bicycle design thing.

he didnt even over-cook a turn, he rode off the *inside* of a bend. basically picked a bad line.

maybe he got distracted or got "wrong footed" by the guy in front of him or made errors in prior corners that led to this.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19955906_10212281847113218_7986488053543116703_o.j pg?oh=a769099274667d43ec16b1e154943d62&oe=59CEEBB1

[ntb1001]

he didnt even over-cook a turn, he rode off the *inside* of a bend. basically picked a bad line.

maybe he got distracted or got "wrong footed" by the guy in front of him or made errors in prior corners that led to this.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19955906_10212281847113218_7986488053543116703_o.j pg?oh=a769099274667d43ec16b1e154943d62&oe=59CEEBB1I agree.....basically a bad line.

and unfortunalty,he played the price for bad judgement.



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[e-RICHIE]

What I meant was he misjudged a turn.
Sorry for choosing the wrong word.










he didnt even over-cook a turn, he rode off the *inside* of a bend. basically picked a bad line.

maybe he got distracted or got "wrong footed" by the guy in front of him or made errors in prior corners that led to this.

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/19955906_10212281847113218_7986488053543116703_o.j pg?oh=a769099274667d43ec16b1e154943d62&oe=59CEEBB1

[Mark McM]

he didnt even over-cook a turn, he rode off the *inside* of a bend. basically picked a bad line.

maybe he got distracted or got "wrong footed" by the guy in front of him or made errors in prior corners that led to this.


I think the comments were that he over-cooked the previous turn (assuming this was in the middle of a set 'S' turns), which caused him to off the road on the inside of the following turn. Locking up the rear wheel between the turns would have just made a bad situation worse.

[BobO]

I think the comments were that he over-cooked the previous turn (assuming this was in the middle of a set 'S' turns), which caused him to off the road on the inside of the following turn. Locking up the rear wheel between the turns would have just made a bad situation worse.

Actually I think he probably locked up prior to the previous turn, which started the chain of events of him being off line with too much speed.

[choke]

Not sure if this is comparable but I recall the women's time trial world champion a couple of years ago riding an unbranded custom bike because the sponsor could not or would not provide a bike that fit. Not the Tour but this is a woman at the pinnacle of the sport. (Searched and could not find the reference).Linda Villumsen at the 2015 Worlds.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/villumsen-at-the-heart-of-a-storm-after-riding-non-trade-team-bike-to-worlds-success/

[oldpotatoe]

He cooked a turn in the road. It's a racing tactic/head thing not a bicycle design thing.

agree..

[Hindmost]

It didn't help that they were very bunched up on that decent...

Tim

Yea, that likely contributed. If you are committed to following a wheel and that wheel goes right to the edge of the road and your momentum carries you 1-2" farther, you are toast.

[BobbyJones]

Three Pages so far!

[numbskull]

When you mess up in s-turns, you rarely wreck in the turn you messed up. It usually takes two or three turns to really catch you out. Based on the fact that he was noticeably faster than everyone else, Richie had apparently screwed up an entry earlier by carrying too much speed and it caught up to him at that point. He missed the prior apex and exit so badly that he had to turn right to get to the apex on a left hander.
.

Interesting, informative, and insightful. Thanks.

[deluxerider]

He just didn't turn right.

[soulspinner]

it's not about the bike.

:d

[Waldo]

:d

Thread merge: Porte's bike was as much to blame for the crash as the cyclist on Natchez Trace was responsible for being hit by Volvo SUV driver.