Should I do Mt. Washington?

[Elefantino]

It's very similar to the Mortirolo. This time I would be geared properly.

Mulling flights from SFO to Portland...

[MattTuck]

I'm guessing you mean Mt. Washington in New Hampshire, and talking about flying into Portland, Maine... and not some other Mt. Washington near Portland, OR.

Having hiked it, and ridden up part of it, I don't see the point.

It is a logistic pain in the butt, you probably know that you can only ride it on certain days and have to pay quite a bit for those events. On top of that, you cannot ride down it, so you need to coordinate with someone else to rendezvous at the top to get a ride down. Doug Jansen had a problem where the person he was going to get a ride down with her partner/boyfriend never made it to the top, and he was sort of stranded.

Lots of good information here: http://www.northeastcycling.com/hillclimb_races/

There are other hill climbs in the North East, and I'd be happy to point you to some areas in NH with decent climbing that isn't as long/steep as Mt. Washington, but you can put it together into an actual ride.

[MattTuck]

Btw, also consider flying into Boston; Manchester, NH; and even possibly Lebanon, NH.

[Louis]

Do it like Christian's buddy Travis Pastrana:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BZh-7hkNe4

[David Kirk]

I did it once and it was awesome. High winds on the summit ended it early but it was really fun.

dave

[dpk501]

We ride bikes for fun.

We ride bikes when it's not so fun, allowing us to know what it is to suffer.

We also ride bikes for that fleeting chance of this becoming an epic ride in our minds.

Do it and don't regret it, and I hope it becomes an epic memory for you.

[jlwdm]

We ride bikes for fun.

We ride bikes when it's not so fun, allowing us to know what it is to suffer.

We also ride bikes for that fleeting chance of this becoming an epic ride in our minds.

Do it and don't regret it, and I hope it becomes an epic memory for you.

+1

Life should be made up of great experiences. Don't let others rain on your experiences. Go for it.

I have found that a lot of the best experiences are those you just plan on the spur of the moment. Not those you plan for years.

A positive attitude will make it great.

Jeff

[pinkshogun]

Also in the general vicinity: http://www.majortaylorassociation.org/events/georgestreet13.shtml

[Climb01742]

I did it once and it was awesome. High winds on the summit ended it early but it was really fun.

dave

If you do ride it, prepare for very different weather at the top and/or once you clear the treeline. Winds can easily be 30-60mph and temp can be 30 degrees colder. Also you might want to practice clicking into your pedal as you ride across a very narrow road. But as Dave said, even with the challenges, getting to the top gives you a real sense of achievement.

[merckx]

If you are contemplating the ride, don't hesitate. It will be a pivotal moment in your athletic career. I've done the race three times, and have taken away some good memories. The suffering is a good investment.

[OtayBW]

So, what kind of gearing is reasonable for this thing? 1:1? Lower? :eek:

[thwart]

Do it like Christian's buddy Travis Pastrana:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BZh-7hkNe4

That's just nuts.

[merckx]

So, what kind of gearing is reasonable for this thing? 1:1? Lower? :eek:

If you are considering an ascent you are probably pretty fit, no? One to one should give you plenty of margin. The one wildcard, as mentioned by Climb, is the weather. I recall groveling through the 18% gravel section above the tree line with a healthy headwind. It was an existential moment. When I did it my low was 30 X 25. It was plenty for me at the time, but now I would need a motor!

[merckx]

That's just nuts.

Darwin was right.

[ofcounsel]

Sounds like miserable ride.

[seanile]

Do it like Christian's buddy Travis Pastrana:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BZh-7hkNe4

or like tim johnson on a fat bike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYwZ5Egjlc0

[ergott]

Sounds like miserable ride.

Suffering is a big part of what we love about riding.

I'd say 1:1 for most is a safe bet. It can be done with taller gears, but your cadence will be LOW. I saw Geneviève Jeanson race it with a 39/32 and she cracked the hour mark (all doping aside). An elite time would put you in the 75-85rpm range. For a respectable 1:30 time that's 5mph and a cadence in the 50s.

I'd pick gearing that you can average 5mph and be at a cadence you can settle into.

[NHAero]

I did this twice in my youth, riding the bike I built as my '74 thesis at MIT. In '75 I called ahead and was told I could ride a fixed gear, but the day I showed up they said no. I left 1/2 hr before the actual race, and rode by myself. I'd done the math with an estimate of the wattage I could expend over a 75 minute ride lifting my bike and body up 4700 ft, and that worked out to a 1:1 gear at a 75-80 rpm cadence. Before the race started, people looked at the bike (it kinda stood out - 1-1/2" aluminum tubing, unpainted) and laughed at my homemade gearing (I drilled out a Sturmey Archer 3 speed 20T cog and bolted it to a TA Cyclotourist crank to get a 20:20). But the next lowest gearing was on John Allis' bike ('64 Olympic rider) so I thought I was OK. It took me 73:30 and I never had to get up out of the saddle. The next year I had been very sick in late spring (mono) and I made the mistake of gearing up to 20:18, switching to a single speed freewheel and adding brakes. I rode 84:15 and was second Novice - Tim Caldwell was first Novice (Olympic x-c skier) in 70:22 and John Howard won in 60:25, beating the Stetina brothers and George Mount. 98 finishers that year.

You should do it! Others' advice about possible conditions are on the money. The first year I ran it there was a 30F temp drop from bottom to top.

[Mark McM]

It's very similar to the Mortirolo. This time I would be geared properly.

Mulling flights from SFO to Portland...

Similar to the Mortirolo except:

Mt. Washington has a greater total ascent.

Mt. Washington has a steeper average grade.

The Mortirolo climb traverses a pass (gap between mountains), while Mt. Washington climbs to a mountain peak.

Mt. Washington is very exposed and aways windy (average windspeed - 32 mph; maximum wind speed - 231 mph).

As others have said, the top and bottom of Mt. Washington have very different climates, and traversing the different weather and ecologies while riding from bottom to top is always an interesting experience.

[MattTuck]

+1

Life should be made up of great experiences. Don't let others rain on your experiences. Go for it.

I have found that a lot of the best experiences are those you just plan on the spur of the moment. Not those you plan for years.

A positive attitude will make it great.

Jeff

Not sure if that was directed at my less than enthusiastic response to Elefantino's original question.

I haven't seen him post any reply to this thread, so I'm not sure what his goals are. As a 'test' of your ability, I think Mt. Washington could be worthwhile. It is 1-1.5 hours of climbing, and then that is it. Basically an uphill time trial.

If that is your thing, more power to you.

But it is not like some of the climbs in Europe where you can string a couple climbs together into a loop. It is a one time shot, up the mountain and then you're done.

If you're going to fly across the country, it seems there are other things you could do that would be more enjoyable and cheaper. In New Hampshire, you could ride in the White Mountains, do some loops with multiple mountain passes. Drive over to eastern Vermont and do a loop that ends at Mt. Ascutney. Drive down to Mt. Greylock in Massachusetts to do a big loop (two roads go up this mountain, so you can climb it twice, or once, and then descend the other side), etc.

Anyway, my point wasn't to knock Mt. Washington and say it was a bad event. But if you're looking for epic rides, there are (IMO) better options in the North East than flying out just to ride Mt. Washington.

PS. You can do it on your eliptigo!

[William]

There's a unicycle category?

I guess so...



William

[torquer]

I'm holding out for a Citibike category.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1422411861&x-yt-cl=84924572&v=nfneUUh_1ko

[Ralph]

If you do it....allow some time to recover from spending a day traveling. For me anyway.....a day traveling is not the same as a rest day at home. It's difficult to maintain hydration and food to prepare for a day of climbing. You will need all you got.

[Elefantino]

I haven't seen him post any reply to this thread, so I'm not sure what his goals are. As a 'test' of your ability, I think Mt. Washington could be worthwhile. It is 1-1.5 hours of climbing, and then that is it. Basically an uphill time trial.

If that is your thing, more power to you.

But it is not like some of the climbs in Europe where you can string a couple climbs together into a loop. It is a one time shot, up the mountain and then you're done.

If you're going to fly across the country, it seems there are other things you could do that would be more enjoyable and cheaper. In New Hampshire, you could ride in the White Mountains, do some loops with multiple mountain passes. Drive over to eastern Vermont and do a loop that ends at Mt. Ascutney. Drive down to Mt. Greylock in Massachusetts to do a big loop (two roads go up this mountain, so you can climb it twice, or once, and then descend the other side), etc.

Anyway, my point wasn't to knock Mt. Washington and say it was a bad event. But if you're looking for epic rides, there are (IMO) better options in the North East than flying out just to ride Mt. Washington.
I know that flying out to climb 7.6 miles and go home is not the most fiscally responsible thing. A friend has a buddy about to drop out. Just mulling the idea. I have a 34-34 on the Look that I never got to use in Italy.

Thanks again.

[Climb01742]

Having a 1:1 ratio is very sensible. I rode it with a 34-34, but rode my 34-30 most of the way. Though I never touched my 34, just knowing it was there really helped mentally. As Merckx said, with the wind and grade, you face moments of existential dread. At those moments, knowing you have a bailout gear helps you keep going (at least it did me.) One other tip re: clothing. While you're in the trees, you'll be sweating your face off, but once you clear the trees, you could be ripped by wind, while drenched with sweat. I wore a SS Craft base layer with windblock fabric over the chest. Both times I rode MW, it was 35 degrees at the top with 50+mph wind. That windblock layer really helped. And be sure whoever meets you on top, has a change of warm clothes for you (or at least a change of stuff above your waist.)

[josephr]

saying 'yes' just because enabling others to explore their limits just sounds like the Paceline thing to do. :beer: better post some pics too.

[572cv]

I did it back in the day, a memorable ride. My wife also rode it that year.

The temperature at the bottom was quite warm. At the top, people were there to catch you in the cold wind, with blankets. Just a remarkable transition. The key thing to remember is that there are no flats, no breaks. If you go anaerobic, you are done. The steady pace, steady cadence rules the day. I passed everyone in my flight, and many more beyond with this strategy. I was very pleased with my ride, though it was only top twenty five or so. My wife, on the other hand, won. She is a great rider, and I'm lucky to still be out on the bike with her all the time.

I hope you can take the opportunity to do the ride, and I hope it is a great day.

[NHAero]

That's a great story, Rob. Did you two ride together? The year I was in the race, 1976, there were three women finishers. One of them beat her brother, one of the friends I went up to the race with, by seven minutes :-)

I did it back in the day, a memorable ride. My wife also rode it that year.

The temperature at the bottom was quite warm. At the top, people were there to catch you in the cold wind, with blankets. Just a remarkable transition. The key thing to remember is that there are no flats, no breaks. If you go anaerobic, you are done. The steady pace, steady cadence rules the day. I passed everyone in my flight, and many more beyond with this strategy. I was very pleased with my ride, though it was only top twenty five or so. My wife, on the other hand, won. She is a great rider, and I'm lucky to still be out on the bike with her all the time.

I hope you can take the opportunity to do the ride, and I hope it is a great day.

[Ti Designs]

Here's my take on Mt Washington: Do it once to figure out what it's about - nothing anyone tells you is going to replace this, you just have to go do it. You then have a year to get ready for the next time up. Set your personal best and there's no reason to go back.

[Ti Designs]

Before the race started, people looked at the bike (it kinda stood out - 1-1/2" aluminum tubing, unpainted) and laughed at my homemade gearing (I drilled out a Sturmey Archer 3 speed 20T cog and bolted it to a TA Cyclotourist crank to get a 20:20). But the next lowest gearing was on John Allis' bike ('64 Olympic rider) so I thought I was OK.

I think you were looking at the wrong bike... John was on the Olympic team in '64, '68 and '72. The picture is of the bike built for him for the '72 Olympics, but he did Mt Washington on his Raleigh 753. I've had a number of conversations with him about gearing and Mt Washington. I used a 42x28 because the smallest chainring the Record crank would take was 42T and I upgraded to a Super Record rear derailleur which handled a 28 in back. John wasn't sure if his crank was a 151BCD or a 144BCD, so he either used a 42 or a 44.

[NHAero]

I think you misunderstood me. All I was saying is that I looked at other riders' bikes and gearing, and the lowest gearing I saw besides mine was on the bike John Allis was riding.

I think you were looking at the wrong bike... John was on the Olympic team in '64, '68 and '72. The picture is of the bike built for him for the '72 Olympics, but he did Mt Washington on his Raleigh 753. I've had a number of conversations with him about gearing and Mt Washington. I used a 42x28 because the smallest chainring the Record crank would take was 42T and I upgraded to a Super Record rear derailleur which handled a 28 in back. John wasn't sure if his crank was a 151BCD or a 144BCD, so he either used a 42 or a 44.

[Ti Designs]

I think you misunderstood me. All I was saying is that I looked at other riders' bikes and gearing, and the lowest gearing I saw besides mine was on the bike John Allis was riding.

OK, that makes sense - other than drilling into your crank to mount a much smaller cog, the lowest gear was what was available...

[NHAero]

Attached are some photos (many years later) of the bike I rode. Other photos in this thread:
https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=167442&page=2

OK, that makes sense - other than drilling into your crank to mount a much smaller cog, the lowest gear was what was available...

[numbskull]

Not so sure about the seat but the rest of it is cool.

[Louis]

Attached are some photos (many years later) of the bike I rode.

Wow - a true single-purpose bike!

[NHAero]

The second year, when I was able to ride in the race, people riding gears like that 42/28 would power by me, standing on the pedals, then I would pass them walking. A person riding a 70 minute race would be at 55 rpm with that gearing, and in '76, only 17 of the 98 finishers broke 70 minutes. The sensible thing is to gear down. I don't recall what the largest cog was one could get on a freewheel back then (I think Suntour made a 14-32), but for sure touring bikes existed and the TA Cyclotourist crank I used wasn't the only way to get lower gears than 42/28. I'm recalling my late 60s Peugeot UO8 having a 52-36 chainring set. So one could prep a bike even in the mid-70s with proper gearing to ride up the Rock Pile.

Ti, when you rode a 42/28, what was your time (and average rpm)?

OK, that makes sense - other than drilling into your crank to mount a much smaller cog, the lowest gear was what was available...

[NHAero]

Yah well it's not really all that hard to swap it back to a regular chainring. The 20T cog adapted to the crankset was indeed single purpose. But having a fixed gear bike under 13 pounds was fun on the street too, and this was 1974, no carbon fiber on that bike.

Wow - a true single-purpose bike!

[Louis]

I'd think what you have to do is figure out what your max sustainable power output is for the time you think it will take you, say 1.5 hrs, or whatever, then for the approximate avg grade of the climb and what you think is a decent cadence calculate what gear ratio you're going to need.

I guess you also need to set some minimum speed, otherwise you might calculate a speed that's so low you can't stay upright.

Of course you can always resort to S's to effectively lower the grade, but the folks trying to pass you might not appreciate it.

[NHAero]

Read my first post in this thread - that's just what I did in 1975.

I'd think what you have to do is figure out what your max sustainable power output is for the time you think it will take you, say 1.5 hrs, or whatever, then for the approximate avg grade of the climb and what you think is a decent cadence calculate what gear ratio you're going to need.

I guess you also need to set some minimum speed, otherwise you might calculate a speed that's so low you can't stay upright.

Of course you can always resort to S's to effectively lower the grade, but the folks trying to pass you might not appreciate it.

[Ti Designs]

Ti, when you rode a 42/28, what was your time (and average rpm)?

1:05:32

I don't spend a lot of time rehashing race results by other metrics. The rules are simple, the first guy across the line wins, no cheating. After any race or fast ride there are always people comparing their power files, showing their friends how many watts they produced. Should I care?

The one time I tried using another factor to skew the outcome of a sprint didn't work at all. We did the ride from Boston to P-Town, which is about 135miles. The P-Town town line is a flat, fast sprint, and I came in second to one of my Harvard kids. On the boat ride home I asked him "how old are you?". His reply was "That's your excuse?".

They lost the results from 1982, so you'll never know where I finished. In trying to find the results from that year I asked Tom Vinson (the district rep at the time), who said the results were kept on paper, and it was windy that day. Windy at the top of Mt Washington - really?!?!

[beeatnik]

^Legit

[572cv]

That's a great story, Rob. Did you two ride together? The year I was in the race, 1976, there were three women finishers. One of them beat her brother, one of the friends I went up to the race with, by seven minutes :-)

Marc, we did ride the same early 80s race, yes, but not the same flight. She was racing with a group of Cat1-2 women. She was, and still is, a fine climber. After the race, we had to drive down to Intervale to pickup the skis she won in addition to a little prize money.

I love the bike you built to do the ride. I was nowhere near as scientifically methodical as you were. That was clever indeed. I did, however, try to get the most gear possible onto my AustroDaimler Superleight. It had Campy Record. I put it on a stand and installed an old Cyclopans touring cluster on the back, swapping out bigger and bigger gears on the cluster until it would not shift any more ;-). The largest one I could fit, you could climb onto, but not back down. So, once you were on it, that was basically your fixie. But it worked out really well.

Good memories. Hey Elephantino, go for it if you can!

[572cv]

1:05:32


They lost the results from 1982, so you'll never know where I finished. In trying to find the results from that year I asked Tom Vinson (the district rep at the time), who said the results were kept on paper, and it was windy that day. Windy at the top of Mt Washington - really?!?!

(I'm pretty darn sure) that was our year too. Yes, it was REALLY windy on top! Everybody in toe clips, you had no chance of not falling over at the finish if people weren't there to catch the riders. The worst weather on earth, as the book is titled.

[merlinmurph]

1:05:32



Holy crap, that's awesome.

[NHAero]

This reminds me of an incident back in the early 1970s. Sheldon Brown loved tandems, but had very little money, so he brazed together a couple of old Raleigh frames to make a tandem. One day we headed out from Cambridge, I'm the stoker, and west of Belmont Center Concord Avenue is pretty steep. We hammer up the hill, and as it eases a bit discover that the freewheel had frozen up and we now had a ten speed fixed gear. Of course that didn't phase Sheldon...

That bike had IIRC a 65T large chainring and a 13T small cog. Later on that ride we're hammering along on the flat, and I shouted to him, put it in top gear. He shouts back, we ARE in top gear!

The largest one I could fit, you could climb onto, but not back down. So, once you were on it, that was basically your fixie.

[cnighbor1]

Should I do Mt. Washington?
Living SFO Area I would head to Oregon Mt Bachelor Cater lake
Dead Indian road and other great climbs first

[572cv]

This reminds me of an incident back in the early 1970s. Sheldon Brown loved tandems, but had very little money, so he brazed together a couple of old Raleigh frames to make a tandem. One day we headed out from Cambridge, I'm the stoker, and west of Belmont Center Concord Avenue is pretty steep. We hammer up the hill, and as it eases a bit discover that the freewheel had frozen up and we now had a ten speed fixed gear. Of course that didn't phase Sheldon...

That bike had IIRC a 65T large chainring and a 13T small cog. Later on that ride we're hammering along on the flat, and I shouted to him, put it in top gear. He shouts back, we ARE in top gear!

And that is also a great story! My aunt and uncle and cousins lived on Concord Ave, up that hill. I know it well, for a guy who never lived in the area. Yikes, what a workout!

[benb]

I would say "Yes" if you are curious. I've done it twice, I had a great time both times.

It is hard, but if you're fit it's just not that long of a day. You will not be sore/beat the next day IME. I did it twice in my 20s though, so maybe that wouldn't be true now.

Since you're traveling and having expenses I'd plan on doing the Mt. Washington Century the next day to get a little more bang for your buck. It's a great ride. I did the Century the second time I did the hill climb, had a lot of fun. It's a collection of Gaps, lots of climbing but not really extreme, I think it's like 5k of climbing? But the views are great and you get a great overview of the Presidentials and White mountains and you'll see a lot of the area.

It takes a lot of motivation to do it.. gotta get in the lottery early in the year, train, spend money on the hotel, do the logistics to have a ride, etc..

You handle the clothes and weather issues by having your "ride" drive up to the top with your winter clothes. IME the correct thing to take on the ride is just shorts + jersey + arm warmers. Start with the arm warmers pulled down around your wrists and then pull them up to cover your arms when you get above the tree line. Since you're going slow and hard you will be fine.. as soon as you cross the finish line and stop you'll freeze, so you need your support person to be watching carefully to throw you some pants and a winter jacket + hat/gloves to throw on.

It was basically winter weather both times I did it at the top. Little bit of snowflakes and such but not accumulating.

It got really expensive and popular for a while, when it hit $500 I said no thanks and haven't done it again.. IIRC the price has gone down again, so maybe I'd consider it again. But it is a huge/selfish logistical effort for someone with a family since it takes up the whole weekend.

First time I did it was my 2nd year cycling, first full season owning a road bike. I was woefully under prepared, didn't have good bike fit or gearing. Did it with a 39x27 and had to walk a couple sections. I think I got a 1:39. Second time I did it I'd learned a lot but went up with a 34x32 and took it too easy some spots and got a 1:23. Still had to get off the bike once or twice due to high winds. It is pretty wild with the wind.

I'd like to do it again with a power meter. The first time I did it I don't think I even had a HR monitor. Second time I did it I'd learned to ride by HR, but didn't really understand how to hold a steady pace up a climb like that. First off your HR will be higher than expected, second there will be lots of drift, so my power output probably dropped as I went up the hill because I was trying to hold a steady HR output. Pretty sure I'd beat my 1:23 time by a good bit if I did it again.

If I did it again ideally I'd want to just stick a single speed crank/chainring on the front for the race I think with the right sized ring. Then swap it out afterwards to ride the century the next day. When I did it with a compact with a 34x32 what I did was swap the cassette to 12-25 before the century. That turned out to be a really annoying setup for the century because it resulted in constantly having to shift the front derailleur more than I would of if I'd gone back to the 53/39 setup. Back then I wasn't really setup yet to swap parts out like that. Hadn't accumulated the tools or knowledge yet.