The cost of going lightweight

[KevinK]

Preface: I am a cyclist from the old school, when fine steel frames, friction DT shifters and 32-36 spoke rims ruled the peleton. Although I recently "modernized" to titanium, Ergo shifters and low spoke wheels, I still enjoy riding my steel Colnago Mexico from the 70's.

Yesterday, I was out on a training ride with 5 others. We were finished with the hammer fest and sprinting for signs, we were rolling into town on the bike path. I came to a rolling stop where the path crosses a street and started to unclip my right foot and lean right. My buddy rolled up and stopped next to me on the right and filled to space I was going to lean into. I ended up not getting my foot out and leaning into him, and we both went down in very slow motion onto the grass on the side of the path. We both thought it was pretty funny until we noticed something amiss with his bike. The aluminum derailleur hanger had snapped off his carbon bike. He then looked at his rear wheel (Rolf Prima Elan) and the rim ws completely messed up. Not just out of true or potato chipped, the rim was mangled. All this from a no-speed, slow motion, lay-it-down-in-the-grass tipover!

He took it to the LBS and the estimate to repair the frame and wheel is about $500. Now, carbon bikes and lightweight wheels are fine and dandy, but if this happened with our older steel racing bikes, I'm guessing the damage would have been limited to a slightly bent hanger, if even that.

We have to pay through the nose for top quality lightweight equipment, and then we pay through the nose AGAIN because of the fragility of this stuff. I would love to see a race series for vintage equipped bikes only. Steel frameset, quill stem, friction shifters, 32 minimum spoke count, no carbon allowed. I bet the racing will be just as competitive, more affordable, and loads of fun to boot!

Kevin

[znfdl]

The aluminum derailleur hanger had snapped off his carbon bike. He then looked at his rear wheel (Rolf Prima Elan) and the rim ws completely messed up. Not just out of true or potato chipped, the rim was mangled. All this from a no-speed, slow motion, lay-it-down-in-the-grass tipover!

He took it to the LBS and the estimate to repair the frame and wheel is about $500. Now, carbon bikes and lightweight wheels are fine and dandy, but if this happened with our older steel racing bikes, I'm guessing the damage would have been limited to a slightly bent hanger, if even that.
Kevin

Kevin:

That is why I ride a Titanium frame and my everyday training wheels are 32 hole 3 cross.

[CNY rider]

--snip---We have to pay through the nose for top quality lightweight equipment, and then we pay through the nose AGAIN because of the fragility of this stuff. I would love to see a race series for vintage equipped bikes only. Steel frameset, quill stem, friction shifters, 32 minimum spoke count, no carbon allowed. I bet the racing will be just as competitive, more affordable, and loads of fun to boot!

Kevin


Would you allow EPO, testosterone and growth hormone? :p

[Ken Robb]

only brandy or calvados

[Ozz]

Would you allow EPO, testosterone and growth hormone? :p
No. Gotta go old-school: speedball

[Big Dan]

K, that's a bad deal right there. It can get expensive quickly.
Took a spill recently on a steel bike with Ksyriums...
The only thing that got crushed apart from my ego was my left shoulder............ :p

[zap]

Light weight or material has nothing to do with the problem you described.

Just poor design.

This is like me saying that since I've only broken ti and steel road frames, both materials suck.

Not so. Both frames suffered from either poor engineering (corrected) or poor craftsmanship (becoming a ti wind chime).

[GoJavs]

Oh, boy....I feel another steel v. alu v. carbon v. ti thread coming... :argue:

Dude - my condolences to your friend.

[ada@prorider.or]

Light weight or material has nothing to do with the problem you described.

.

agree !

[Big Dan]

Snipped..........


Light weight or material has nothing to do with the problem you described.


Nothing?? nothing at all...........Sure brother............... :help:

[Lifelover]

Light weight or material has nothing to do with the problem you described.

Just poor design.



While I see your point I think the point of the OP is that designing with light weight as the main focus is flawed.


Light, Cheap, Strong. Pick two!

[vaxn8r]

While I see your point I think the point of the OP is that designing with light weight as the main focus is flawed.


Light, Cheap, Strong. Pick two!
Flawed in what way? Depends on your purpose doesn't it?

A Rolf Elan is a very high end, ultralight (for AL rim) wheelset. It is not meant to be an everyday wheelset. If that's your intended use prepare to replace it sooner than a heavier, sturdier wheelset. Why does this have to be a good vs bad type thing? If you want your stuff to last forever, you don't want most of the things I see people buying around here...and that includes the newer leightweight steel framesets.

[eddief]

oops, that was gonna be an inciting statement. Think I'll reserve for local friends and beer.

[chrisroph]

Some of the new gear is more fragile and expensive to repair. That's why my buddy terry (coylifut) did not follow my advice and ride his brand new 404's in the crit and rr this past weekend in a stage race in bend. He only rode them in the tt, where he almost became a hood ornament but that's a story for another day.

About a year ago, terry and I were doing some cross training. I was on my crosshairs with 531 fork and 32 op wheels (clincher cross tires REALLY suck). On a barrier crossing I caught a foot and went down in a heap taking terry with me. After we stopped laughing, I noticed my 32 op rear wheel was potato chipped. I bought a new rim for $40-50 and relaced the wheel. The wheel is still going strong even though the new rim is a different color than the old one. The frame and fork were fine.

Anything can fail under the right circumstances, if the force and force vectors are correct. However, if your friend had been on a steel frame and bent the hangar, it probably could have been easily bent back. Perhaps your wheels would have bent if they had been on your friend's bike. However, they would have been less expensive to fix.

I suppose we make choices and one of them is to ride stuff that costs more to fix then other options.

I know I'll be sad if I ever ruin one of my 303's, nucleons or K's. The handbuilts are cheap and easy to fix.

[shinomaster]

Chris roph...I broke your saddle.....Just kidding!!! Hey wanna ride thursday?

[chrisroph]

Chris roph...I broke your saddle.....Just kidding!!! Hey wanna ride thursday?


Funny! Sure, if you don't mind going slow.

[RPS]

The quill stem mentioned in the original post brings to mind that a threadless can be lighter, stronger, and cost less; all thanks to innovative design.

From my perspective retro is not necessarily cheaper and stronger even if weight penalty is ignored.

[KevinK]

The quill stem mentioned in the original post brings to mind that a threadless can be lighter, stronger, and cost less; all thanks to innovative design.

From my perspective retro is not necessarily cheaper and stronger even if weight penalty is ignored.

Yeah, except that going threadless pretty much defaults into carbon or aluminum forks. The vintage racing I envision would be for steel frame/fork only.

Kevin

[Fixed]

anything can break
1) I hate to see bros on their new bikes that cost as much as a car go down .
2) I hate to see bros on their old bikes go down. these cats may have had these bikes for years and are still great .
the first bro lost a lot of money the 2nd bro lost something else. imho
cheers

I had a nago mexico once too it was cool
cheers

[Lifelover]

Flawed in what way? Depends on your purpose doesn't it?



Clearly it depends on the purpose. And that purpose does not match what 99% of the riders need.

A higher percentage of riders might think they want that purpose and certainly should be allowed to pursue it but it is a shame that it has become so common.

[shinomaster]

anything can break
1) I hate to see bros on their new bikes that cost as much as a car go down .
2) I hate to see bros on their old bikes go down. these cats may have had these bikes for years and are still great .
the first bro lost a lot of money the 2nd bro lost something else. imho
cheers

I had a nago mexico once too it was cool
cheers

Thank's for putting it all into perspective, and in language that I can understand! :beer: :beer:

[mike p]

"I would love to see a race series for vintage equipped bikes only. Steel frameset, quill stem, friction shifters, 32 minimum spoke count, no carbon allowed. I bet the racing will be just as competitive, more affordable, and loads of fun to boot!"

No need for a seperate class or race series just do it, you won't be at any real disadvantage unless it is a very hilly course. My main race bike is a ridley (about 17.8 lbs). At least a half doz times a year I race my steel serotta as you describe and the results are the same.

Mike

[chrisroph]

"I would love to see a race series for vintage equipped bikes only. Steel frameset, quill stem, friction shifters, 32 minimum spoke count, no carbon allowed. I bet the racing will be just as competitive, more affordable, and loads of fun to boot!"

No need for a seperate class or race series just do it, you won't be at any real disadvantage unless it is a very hilly course. My main race bike is a ridley (about 17.8 lbs). At least a half doz times a year I race my steel serotta as you describe and the results are the same.

Mike

In Bend this past weekend, this nice kid kent decimated the 3 field in the crit on an older steel peg. He initiated the break, drove it, and then won the sprint. That old blue peg didn't seem to slow him down much.

[vaxn8r]

Clearly it depends on the purpose. And that purpose does not match what 99% of the riders need.

A higher percentage of riders might think they want that purpose and certainly should be allowed to pursue it but it is a shame that it has become so common.
I disagree. It's only a shame if your expectations are out of line. In this case illustrated, yes it was a shame. Live and learn.

[Peter P.]

My rule is: "If you can't afford to wreck it on Sunday and replace it on Monday, then it's too expensive."

[slowgoing]

Light weight or material has nothing to do with the problem you described.

Just poor design.

Not sure I agree, at least not without more information. Generally speaking, as parts become ligher weight and thinner-walled and are designed to support loads applied only in specific directions, they become more prone to failure from loads applied in unintended directions. I wouldn't call that a "poor" design, but rather a specific design.

[Louis]

I always wondered why I unclipped my left foot at the lights. Now I know.

[vaxn8r]

Found this old thread from last year. Ya just never know.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=7828