Blog post by Ben Serotta about bike fit

[fiamme red]

https://benserotta.com/2017/06/24/stepping-into-hss-and-outside-the-box/

[MattTuck]

Thanks for posting.

Definitely a step in the right direction, as far as I'm concerned. accommodative fitting for functional weakness is way too common based on my own observations/experiences of working with some highly regarded fitters.

[Ti Designs]

A bunch of PhDs, MDs and PTs, along with a frame builder, all doing a fitting. Two questions:

1) will that produce a good rider?

2) how much does it cost?

If you can answer those two questions, you'll know if it's a step in the right direction...

[nicrump]

5. Accommodation (as an approach) is the enemy of ongoing improvement.

Amen! Not building you a barcalounger.

[MattTuck]

A bunch of PhDs, MDs and PTs, along with a frame builder, all doing a fitting. Two questions:

1) will that produce a good rider?

2) how much does it cost?

If you can answer those two questions, you'll know if it's a step in the right direction...

Of course, there is a question of the benefit vs the cost of this particular fitting. Probably the most expensive fitting ever, when you think about it. But the value question aside, the philosophy is a step in the right direction.

Even the term 'fitter' is a misnomer. Ed, a long time ago, you used the term 'fit consultant' which gets closer. I think the ideal experience is an iterative process that first assesses the rider and comes up with a plan to get the rider to be balanced and well functioning, and then creates a fit that puts the well functioning rider in the best possible situation for them. At that point, you can address structural issues as a separate concern from functional (correctable) issues.

I know you focus on balance in your fits. I have to imagine there are times when you deal with a client with a weak back or something similar, and you wish you could move them in a certain way, but they don't have the function to make it work. That is the nature of current fits. You can't very well give the person a plan of action and then have them come back in the shop every month to get their fit tuned up (you might, but in general it is not done that way). It would cost a fortune to clients at regular fit prices, and be a big cost to the shop as well. Shops like the model of convincing people that a fit is going to find their one true position to make them comfortable and powerful, and they'll do it all in a couple hours. Then send the person on their way.

The one thing that I'm still skeptical of, is their focus on breathing. Is there science that supports the idea of increased capacity depending on position?

[fiamme red]

The one thing that I'm still skeptical of, is their focus on breathing. Is there science that supports the idea of increased capacity depending on position?Yes, I'm not either entirely convinced by this:

"The bike fit process (once the patient/client is sitting on the bike) begins not at the foot, knee or hip as most other fitters do, but with the upper body. Finding the individual’s best posture for breathing deeply. Once stated, it seems so obvious, oxygen and the ability to inhale lots of it without restriction is key to cardiovascular performance."

[Mark McM]

The one thing that I'm still skeptical of, is their focus on breathing. Is there science that supports the idea of increased capacity depending on position?

Probably not what you're asking, but I think it is pretty well accepted that riders can't produce as much power when their arms/shoulders are squeezed together when riding on aerobars, and that much of the reason is that they can't expand their chest/lungs as well in this position.*

But this is an extreme case for an extreme position.


*While rider power is smaller when in the aerobar position, the decrease in drag is even greater, resulting in a net gain in speed - at least when riding on the flats or downhill.

[beeatnik]

Middle-aged guys who wear Ivy League jerseys are so weird.

[FlashUNC]

Man, Ben whip-sawed back from the "faster-backwards" thing hardcore.

[Anarchist]

Amen! Not building you a barcalounger.

And yet wasn't it his company that built some of the most gawd-awful looking bikes that were designed to nothing other than "accommodate"??

[dave thompson]

And yet wasn't it his company that built some of the most gawd-awful looking bikes that were designed to nothing other than "accommodate"??

Yes. It got a lot of folks on bikes who otherwise were ignored.

[beeatnik]

why does this mierda have to be so complicated.

TiDesigns, I like your experiential style.

[bicycletricycle]

Sounds pretty interesting.

I think it is great when people really try to push the limits of any particular field of knowledge. Perhaps looking at fit from the lungs out will bring something interesting.

I always wondered what would happen if "maximum science" was applied to cycling fit. The evolution through experience and experimentation has gotten us pretty far, perhaps we missed something though (recumbents ?? :))

I do think that it is a little strange when "regular" people engage in this level of intricate preparation for a hobby. Not wrong or anything, just seems excessive to me (coming from a man with dozens of bicycles).

I think I am also suspicious because of my general suspicion for the medicalization of everything.

I feel old when I say this , but, why can't some things just stay simple pleasures.

On the flip side.

I wonder if these people could help with my knee?

What do you think a fit session costs? 2k?

[Clean39T]

TiDesigns, et. Al. - what would you think of this approach: a fitter assesses a client and gives them a three-six-nine month goal position, and then adjusts that or relaxes it back into something that's more accommodating of where the rider is right now?

A little ways back I commented to PNW that he could gradually target a more "normal" position by starting where he's at with an upturned stem and a number of spacers under it, and then slowly moving his position lower on the front end as his core strength and flexibility improve (from riding and off-the-bike work) by moving spacers to above the stem, then later flipping the stem and putting spacers below, then finally moving some spacers above until he gets to the more normal/aero/efficient position he's targeting...

I imagine that's only appropriate in certain cases though - some people just want to ride their bike without pain and don't care how fast/slow they go. At times I envy them...

[fuzzalow]

Man, Ben whip-sawed back from the "faster-backwards" thing hardcore.

Ben has no credibility, that guy is forever throwing spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks.

Middle-aged guys who wear Ivy League jerseys are so weird.

Seeing middle-aged guys that wear Ivy League t-shirts under blazers is so weird. "Cos unless it is naches for the matriculation of one's kids, being well into adulthood nobody cares where they went to school. Of course I'm ranting on this 'cos I didn't go to Harvard or Yale and I'm jealous. :o

[54ny77]

Just the concept of a website/chat forum devoted exclusively to all things bike, many/most of which are bought & ridden predominantly by middle aged guys (which I'll define as 30+), who post photos of their bikes parked against trees, garage doors, streetlamps and other scenery, and who also stuff their guts into lycra and occasionally shave their legs, is so weird.

Could this concept have even existed in 1988?

:hello:

Middle-aged guys who wear Ivy League jerseys are so weird.

[saab2000]

This (sitting on a bicycle) isn't black magic and it's not rocket science. People need to get on their bikes and ride and experiment with what works. A trainer, a mirror (both highly optional) and a dose of common sense go a long way.

The above applies to folks without serious physical limitations. Others may benefit from working with a person with formal, recognized and accredited physiological education. Most bike 'fitters' practice their own form self defined religion based on personal preference.

It is my strong opinion that a ton of money is wasted on bike 'fittings'.

[Peter P.]

My eyes glazed over.

It's a bicycle; fitting a rider to it should not be that complicated.

More snake oil being sold to wealthy cyclists.

[54ny77]

Completely and 100% agree.

I once paid for a super high tech fitting. We're talkin high tech computers, video equipment and sharks with friggin' lazer beams kinda stuff. The end result consisted of a couple degree turn of my shoe cleats, a couple degree upward tilt of my saddle, a 2 or 3mm spacer added on the stem, and a couple of mm up on my saddle height. In other words, not much. However, at the time I was riding a couple hundred+ miles a week at least, so I felt those changes. It was too much. My body didn't like most of them (esp. the cleats, as I know my knee weaknesses), so I went back to the usual figures and rode much happier and more comfortably.

Was it worth it in my opinion? Nope. I'll spend several months with a bike and a small multitool, and make little itsy bitsy changes every once in a blue moon (when I remember to, basically). And then I set it and forget it, just like a Ronco oven.

But, that's me. To each their own. For some, a swank fitting may be a terrific intro to finding a more optimal position that might have been totally assbackwards to begin with.


This (sitting on a bicycle) isn't black magic and it's not rocket science. People need to get on their bikes and ride and experiment with what works. A trainer, a mirror (both highly optional) and a dose of common sense go a long way.

The above applies to folks without serious physical limitations. Others may benefit from working with a person with formal, recognized and accredited physiological education. Most bike 'fitters' practice their own form self defined religion based on personal preference.

It is my strong opinion that a ton of money is wasted on bike 'fittings'.

[parris]

One of the things that a good number of us that have been riding for a while is that our "fit" tends to change throughout the season. New cyclists get sold that the fit number for them tends to be set in concrete. They haven't been around long enough or with experienced cyclists to learn that our fit's do often change with time, injury, condition, etc.

I have a couple of friends that has dumped a boatload of money down the fitting hole over the last few years. I watch how they sit and ride on a bike and I shake my head internally...

[pdmtong]

Any "fitting" whether postured in a point-in-time miracle cure or something organic like a fit zone cannot succeed UNLESS the cyclist agrees to do their part in terms of regular fitness regime - stretching, core, other aerobic and strength work.

without participation from the cyclist, the bicycle position is static, and reflects a moment in time representing a particular fitter's best guess at how to optimize a client.

IMHO fit should aim first for all sustained comfort, and second for max power.

Ben got a client for his limited build new bikes? well, there is one born every minute. At one time I would have been interested, but that time has long since passed.

[bikingshearer]

I'm guessing that if one of us turned up for a similar fitting it would cost an eye-opening amount of money - that level of talent represents a lot of tuition money and student debt.

Does it result in an improved level of cycling performance and/or enjoyment? On the whole, probably. More for some, less for others, none for still others. But my guess is it would be a net positive.

But it also sounds to me like it is an example of the law of diminishing returns. You know, the one that says the higher up the ladder you go (be it bikes, cars, studio equipment, you name it) the less each additional dollar buys you in improvement.

At what point the decreasing marginal improvement becomes not worth the marginal dollar spent is a matter of opinion. Some people think what I am willing to pay for a frame or a component is nuts. I think what some other people are willing to pay for a frame or a component is nuts. And we are both right - for us. Yet another place where YMMV is the rule of the day.

[paredown]

Not sure about the fitting--although I would have liked to be there and watched...

I am a huge fan of the Hospital for Special Surgery though--best place if you have back problems.:beer:

[nicrump]

I'll take the shellacking for this but, in the context of performance road bicycles with drop bars and skinny tyres, it is probably a better idea for a human to adapt to a nice riding bicycle than a nice riding bicycle adapt to the human, resulting in a no longer nice riding bicycle.

btw it is not a new notion to consider breathing and oxygen uptake in positioning a rider. At the end of the day power and Vo2 tell the story. Nut jobs have been doing it for years. Toss in frontal area and fluid dynamics and you've made it into the 1990's era of performance fitting.

[bicycletricycle]

I'll take the shellacking for this but, in the context of performance road bicycles with drop bars and skinny tyres, it is probably a better idea for a human to adapt to a nice riding bicycle than a nice riding bicycle adapt to the human, resulting in a no longer nice riding bicycle.
.

Sure, there are limits though, besides "nice riding" is a highly subjective term.

[Bob Ross]

will that produce a good rider?

"good" is a red herring; the word is meaningless absent of any further context. Some of that context might be defined by the fitter, but most of it will be defined by the fittee.

I would be far more curious whether it produces a comfortable rider...and then I'd ask whether there were any performance compromises or improvements that accompanied that comfort.

And of course the only responses that would truly answer that question would be actual data gathered by polling previous clients.

[AngryScientist]

This (sitting on a bicycle) isn't black magic and it's not rocket science. People need to get on their bikes and ride and experiment with what works. A trainer, a mirror (both highly optional) and a dose of common sense go a long way.

The above applies to folks without serious physical limitations. Others may benefit from working with a person with formal, recognized and accredited physiological education. Most bike 'fitters' practice their own form self defined religion based on personal preference.

It is my strong opinion that a ton of money is wasted on bike 'fittings'.

yes, this, absolutely.

i also think that your regular riding pals can provide good feedback. if one of the guys i ride with is complaining about a sore knee or back or whatever, i'll keep an eye on them on the road over a bunch of miles and can often suggest a tweak here or there that might not be as obvious to them but easier to spot over the course of riding miles together and seeing how they pedal.

[victoryfactory]

I can't argue the science or conviction of Ben and his cohorts.
But for me, after 45+ years of road riding and owning many great bikes
both stock and custom I'm looking for simplicity.

Cycling like any vocation including pushing a wheel barrow, wielding a short handled shovel, doing repetitive factory work, sitting at a desk, carrying a backpack or even driving for 10 hours a day makes human bodies adapt.
Some do it better than others.

When it comes to bikes, I have come to believe that for people near the center of the bell curve a well designed and manufactured frame of the correct size and style (road, crit, race, touring etc)
can be tweaked to fit most riders by getting the contact positions right. that solves most "fitting" issues IMO.

People who are way outside of the average due to size, shape, age or health issues should be the only ones who need more fitting help.

Not everyone needs custom orthopedic shoes either though the salesmen might disagree....

VF

[Ti Designs]

Cycling like any vocation including pushing a wheel barrow, wielding a short handled shovel, doing repetitive factory work, sitting at a desk, carrying a backpack or even driving for 10 hours a day makes human bodies adapt.

How? This is a very widely held assumption, but does it really happen? I have lots of people show up for bike fittings complaining about issues that stem from supporting their body weight on their hands while they ride. My answer is very simple, "you've been riding wrong the whole time". By far the most common response if for them to tell me how long they've been riding. Doing something for a long time makes it feel familiar, which is what most people mistake as being right. If there's any adapting to be had, it's adapting to the signs that what you're doing isn't right.


Some do it better than others.

The fact that has screwed up more cyclist than anything else. The true athletes can turn off their bodies defense mechanisms and do what they want to do - that's maybe 2% of the population. The other 98% of the population thinks they're that 2%. People look at the top athletes and how they do things, and they try to do the same. There's a little problem there...

The confusion about where you are on the bell curve relates to fitting and Ben's new project. People go into a fitting unaware of what their skill set is or isn't, but they have a mental image of what they want for themselves. It's really hard to tell a guy who sees himself as a pro tour rider that he needs to learn the basics of posture on the bike.

My question is why people don't test their beliefs far more often than they do. How do you ride a bike for 20 years that badly??? I test almost everything I spend time doing. I have a long, long list of things I know I'm incompetent at. I'm missing a resource (I have no sequential memory) so I know that I'll never be competent in tasks that require what I lack - I'm the rare case who does know what I don't know. What I'm asking is why do people assume that what they're doing is right? Yes I know, they did it that way yesterday, what's changed? But people who walk down the street on their feet, not their hands, who sit at desks with their body weight on their feet, not their desk or keyboard, get on a bike and put a third of there weight on the handlebars, and wonder why it hurts. Then they accept that it's just what happens, 'cause it felt like that last week too...

When it comes to Ben's high tech fitting and ultra expensive custom bikes, I keep coming back to the same question - will it produce a good rider? There's a really good way to test that, it's called a bike ride.

[classtimesailer]

I've never been fitted or coached but I think if I did either, I would get a coach who would know how to help me ride a bike really fast. OVER TIME this coach would improve ALL of my positions on the bike: on the flats, climbing, in the bunch, crit corners, descending, etc. And over time this coach would help me get stronger in areas where it contributes to riding a bike faster-longer.

Disclaimer-I have a custom stem on my bike with a geometry determined by me and there is no way in hades that I would pay someone to tell me that it needs to be shortelongerhigherlowerangled.

Edit. Disclaimer 2: my wife is a PT, DPT, OCS.

[Pegoready]

1. Fly across the country to get fit for a bike
2. Get an MD, a couple of PT's, a bike mechanic, and a trainer involved
3. Don't forget the yoga balls, cameras, and earnest looking professionals jotting things down on clipboards

https://www.residentadvisor.net/images/promoter/us-thedogponyshow.jpg

[victoryfactory]

Ti:

True, an expert fitter can correct these things. I'm not dissing the art of fitting.
I just contend that the uber scientific costly cerebral part seems over the top....

For me, the test is discomfort. If my knee hurts, I rethink my pedals,shoes etc.
If my hands hurt, I concentrate on cockpit stuff bar position. etc.
These adjustments can be made to a stock bike.

You get a lot of soreness when you first start (or start again) as your riding
specific muscles develop you ride smoother and more comfortably.

VF

[classtimesailer]

"Optimal is only a temporary condition." When this is admitted in the blog post, I hope that Ben would hold off on designing Ivy League Mike's bike until Mike corrected his muscle imbalances, core strength and lost 20 pounds.

[dumbod]

Middle-aged guys who wear Ivy League jerseys are so weird.

Bull.

None of you guys would bat an eyelid at somebody wearing a Michigan or Ohio State jersey - it's just "supporting your school." Good grief, the entire state of Nebraska dresses in red on Saturdays in the fall. Are they all weird? (Well possibly but that's another discussion,)

Why is it any different for an Ivy grad? I bought a Harvard jersey years ago because it was a fund raiser for the cycling club. Do I wear it? Sure. Am I weird? (Well possibly but that's another discussion.)

Everything is not about trying to one-up you.

[beeatnik]

College cycling jerseys which are essentially replicas of football jerseys are so weird (and aesthetically horrific...especially the Big 10).

[fiamme red]

I didn't realize that although the Serotta company is defunct, the Serotta International Cycling Institute (SICI), which instructs bike fitters, seems to be alive and well: http://www.serottacyclinginstitute.com/.

[fuzzalow]

All this litany of aches and pains and myriad of micro-accommodations to ride a drop bar sporting bicycle. Good grief, it's a wonder anyone can get outta bed in the morning and make it to lunchtime.

There was a time, not that long ago, when amateur athlete/enthusiasts rode their drop bar sporting bicycles. Maybe they did a ride or two to imprint the pedal on the bottom of a pair of Dettos before nailing on the cleats. And off they rode.

Nowadays riders boast of injuries like a badge of honor. And injuries not from a crash but just from the activity of riding. Who knew it was so complicated? ;)

Even if you could find a fitter that knows what he's doing, and that's not to say they don't exist - caveat emptor, there is an very limited amount he can do to help an average cyclist because the client is usually resistant to altering the way he rides. Just read most of the responses about how riders are convinced they know what they're doing and because they've been riding for xy-years but then somehow if they can't ride correctly then it's "tight hammies". Riders go to fitters like people watch Fox News: so that they can hear or confirm what they already wanna believe. The fitter will tweak a centimeter or two here and there and the client thinks he got value but when somebody rides with core to hold a position, what's a cm or two of the same wrongness as before?

As long as the client bought into the BS and left happy. He's happy to contort slightly differently for the next hundred miles or so in test riding his new fit & position. Then he'll come back and the fitter will recommend a new saddle - try that for a while. And so it goes.

Ben has no credibility but he is right if his latest grift is not to accommodate into a rider's existing goofy fit & position. Amazing how his ethics didn't prevent him selling a client a $6k shopping cart bike when he knew the immutable fundamentals of how to ride a racebike all along. Yeah, he knew - in a pig's eye.

[John H.]

I have seen these two extremes.

1.) Inflexible guy with bad posture who cannot touch toes. Sits like Fillipo Pozatto in an aggressive road position.

2.) Yogi who rides a bike with a tall headtube and barely any drop.

[Pastashop]

Some folks want to feel special. They have the means to pay someone to make them feel special. They meet and exchange dollars for service. It's a virtuous economic cycle. So to speak.

[soulspinner]

I miss the days when a coach hung out of a car door and watched you pedal.:p

[Ti Designs]

Ti:

True, an expert fitter can correct these things. I'm not dissing the art of fitting.
I just contend that the uber scientific costly cerebral part seems over the top....

Totally agree.

My shop has several levels of fittings, with the Retul fitting being the most expensive and what I do being the least expensive. I adjust saddle to pedal relationship and explain how the body weight goes on the pedals (like everything else you do in life) and not on your hands. From there I get the bars in the ball park and explain how it all works. If they go out and ride their bike they'll get more comfortable with body weight on the pedals and front end will need to be changed. Knowing that I don't see the point of laser accuracy...

When someone gets the expensive fitting and things go wrong, they send them to me. What does that tell you?

[numbskull]

"Optimal is only a temporary condition." When this is admitted in the blog post, I hope that Ben would hold off on designing Ivy League Mike's bike until Mike corrected his muscle imbalances, core strength and lost 20 pounds.

Bingo......and right in TiD's wheelhouse. There is no such thing as an ideal fit.....only an ideal fit for one's current weight and strength. As these change your position on the bike has to change as well or something starts to hurt.

Take any professional cyclist, strap #15-20 onto his chest/abd to mimic weight gain, and his hands will scream in pain plenty soon enough. To redistribute that weight off his hands his position will need to change significantly.

[sparky33]

Middle-aged guys who wear Ivy League jerseys are so weird.

even weirder than a painted stem from a Ti maker.

[Ti Designs]

I bought a Harvard jersey years ago because it was a fund raiser for the cycling club. Do I wear it? Sure. Am I weird? (Well possibly but that's another discussion.)

Thank you.

[572cv]

Middle-aged guys who wear Ivy League jerseys are so weird.

Well, what about Old Guys who wear jerseys from their ivy crusted alma mater? My old school has a cycling team, and I was perfectly happy to fork over for a kit to help them get enough volume for a bulk order. Nice design too! I wear it occasionally and am proud to do so. I think it depends on circumstance, attitude and approach. Its a big step up from a t-shirt or ball cap :)

[54ny77]

i think beatnik was being tongue in cheek. he's from los angeles, after all, where weird takes on a whole new paradigm.

:p

Well, what about Old Guys who wear jerseys from their ivy crusted alma mater? My old school has a cycling team, and I was perfectly happy to fork over for a kit to help them get enough volume for a bulk order. Nice design too! I wear it occasionally and am proud to do so. I think it depends on circumstance, attitude and approach. Its a big step up from a t-shirt or ball cap :)

[pdmtong]

Totally agree.

My shop has several levels of fittings, with the Retul fitting being the most expensive and what I do being the least expensive. I adjust saddle to pedal relationship and explain how the body weight goes on the pedals (like everything else you do in life) and not on your hands. From there I get the bars in the ball park and explain how it all works. If they go out and ride their bike they'll get more comfortable with body weight on the pedals and front end will need to be changed. Knowing that I don't see the point of laser accuracy...

When someone gets the expensive fitting and things go wrong, they send them to me. What does that tell you?

I once observed a friend get some kind of laser fitting that was based on a Specialized (bicycle company) approach.

While the laser could spit out a computer drawing to a mm and 1/4 degree accuracy, it occurred to me the imprecision of the fitter in applying the dots to the person. so now the fitter is trying to assume an accuracy that really doesn't have a foundation base don the same degree of accuracy.

the one and done fitting school isnt the solution. better to sell multi-visit package with follow-up intervals, and "homework" (riding, exercises) for the rider to accomplish prior to returning. Make the fitting a process, not an end.

[Ti Designs]

While the laser could spit out a computer drawing to a mm and 1/4 degree accuracy, it occurred to me the imprecision of the fitter in applying the dots to the person. so now the fitter is trying to assume an accuracy that really doesn't have a foundation based on the same degree of accuracy.

It's far worse than that. The software is based on the assumption that the fitter knows nothing. The numbers on the screen turn green if you're within their accepted range, red if they're outside of it. Retul says that 80% of my fit is wrong...

the one and done fitting school isnt the solution. better to sell multi-visit package with follow-up intervals, and "homework" (riding, exercises) for the rider to accomplish prior to returning. Make the fitting a process, not an end.

You understand more about bike fitting than most of the bike industry. Here's a problem - that method would expose what the fitters don't know. When I started coaching in 1999, I didn't have most of the answers. It's called a lack of experience. To make up for that I had my two coaches, one of whom was John Allis. Over the years I've learned a thing or two. Most fitters present themselves as experts in cycling, to admit that you don't know something kills that. I spend a lot of time watching fitters try to explain how things work when they themselves can't make it work. I have offered many fitters in my area my coaching services for free, guess how many have taken me up on the offer... The fitting industry is more about saving face than it is about the end product.

[William]

i once observed a friend get some kind of laser fitting that was based on a specialized (bicycle company) approach.

While the laser could spit out a computer drawing to a mm and 1/4 degree accuracy, it occurred to me the imprecision of the fitter in applying the dots to the person. So now the fitter is trying to assume an accuracy that really doesn't have a foundation base don the same degree of accuracy.

.....



Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!!!!


.

[Bob Ross]

While the laser could spit out a computer drawing to a mm and 1/4 degree accuracy, it occurred to me the imprecision of the fitter in applying the dots to the person. so now the fitter is trying to assume an accuracy that really doesn't have a foundation base don the same degree of accuracy.

Or, to put it another way (as it was explained to me by a fitter who was trained in Retul but then moved away from it), unless the fitter is using an x-ray or an MRI -- and let's be honest, none of them are (Andy Pruitt maybe?) -- the margin of error for dot-placement is greater than the size of the recommended changes that the fit system spits out!

[fuzzalow]

The fitting industry is more about saving face than it is about the end product.

HaHa! And all this time, I thought the fitting industry was about creating revenue from not a service but from an elaborate presentation.

[oldpotatoe]

HaHa! And all this time, I thought the fitting industry was about creating revenue from not a service but from an elaborate presentation.

Yup..one of the best 'fitters' in the republic uses a tape measure, the thing below and a home made plumb bob..and his eyeballs and experience..

[Ti Designs]

Yup..one of the best 'fitters' in the republic uses a tape measure, the thing below and a home made plumb bob..and his eyeballs and experience..

You kinds need some allen wrenches too...

[pdmtong]

It's far worse than that. The software is based on the assumption that the fitter knows nothing. The numbers on the screen turn green if you're within their accepted range, red if they're outside of it. Retul says that 80% of my fit is wrong...



You understand more about bike fitting than most of the bike industry. Here's a problem - that method would expose what the fitters don't know. When I started coaching in 1999, I didn't have most of the answers. It's called a lack of experience. To make up for that I had my two coaches, one of whom was John Allis. Over the years I've learned a thing or two. Most fitters present themselves as experts in cycling, to admit that you don't know something kills that. I spend a lot of time watching fitters try to explain how things work when they themselves can't make it work. I have offered many fitters in my area my coaching services for free, guess how many have taken me up on the offer... The fitting industry is more about saving face than it is about the end product.

my skepticism about fit comes from when i bought my first modern road bike I self-sized myself to a used calfee stock 54. one of the most respected fitters in SF sets my saddle and setback, then sets up the front with a +17dx100 stem and 3cm bar drop. he never said the frame was too small.

I went to replace the calfee - found a KGSN ottrott being sold by the team DS. He says 54? you should be on at least a 56!

huh? amazing, way more stable downhill!

the headtube is cut low since it was a race bike and I ride it stem flipped...one day I decide that looks bad so I flip it down. decide I like a 110 over a 120 or 100 after trial and error. try to get out as far as I can without straining. now my bar drop is 8cm.

huh? amazing, way more stable downhill!

my saddle tip to bar reach is around 57.0. I keep messing with it based on various fit threads on this forum over the years. Got it to a place where feels solid downhill, disappears under me while on long or short rides, and no discomfort other than tired muscles after a 100/10,000 day.

My flexibility and core is the same when I got my calfee to today. yes, lucky I can fit on a stock frame. so other than stem length and bar drop, there isn't much to play with if my saddle is in the right place relative to a stock bike.

I think this goes to the idea that fit is organic, and if you are active in the sport, you just have to try new things and see.

I laughed at your comment as to how a person could be riding their bike badly for so many years.

I think my set up is sort of middle-aggressive, but I have to say that generally riders I see are faster backwards, and I cant help but wonder if they tried working to a more balanced position how much more they would enjoy the ride (neck and back age issues aside)

[beeatnik]

The Western Mind is so weird.

[johnmdesigner]

HaHa! And all this time, I thought the fitting industry was about creating revenue from not a service but from an elaborate presentation.

Really Dollar Bill you still here in stinky summer NYC? I thought you would be in your French chateau by now advising the Macron government how to save the French people. But maybe you're just calling it in.
I don't agree with Ben's methodology but he has produced a whole lot more frames than you have.
And he had a pretty successful business until the economic downturn and his tin ear had him producing Ti dropouts by hand in upstate NY.
People go out and ride their bikes. What do you and the rest of the internet judges here care if they are comfortable or not?
I saw a pasty white guy with over washed bibs this morning and the vision of his hairy crack was much worse than his backwards bicycle.

[ergott]

I take issue with the idea that you should start other than from the pedals on up.

Yes you should have open breathing capacity, but you don't start there. That's not hard to obtain after getting the feet and saddle in the right place.

[54ny77]

i wonder if this guy needs a proper fitting. looks like his breathing's a bit constricted.

https://www.farmshow.com/images/resize.php?w=300&img=/images/articles/30/2/13334_l.jpg

[johnmdesigner]

I had Len at Toga Bikes set up my position in 1990.
The only thing that has changed is the stem and stack height.
Really how is Ben's technique of attracting customers any different than most of the dermatologists, trainers, weight loss experts?
Good for him. As long as he isn't personally pimping it here. Then I would object.

[colker]

why does this mierda have to be so complicated.

TiDesigns, I like your experiential style.

Because it´s a cash cow.

[colker]

the fact that has screwed up more cyclist than anything else. The true athletes can turn off their bodies defense mechanisms and do what they want to do - that's maybe 2% of the population. The other 98% of the population thinks they're that 2%. People look at the top athletes and how they do things, and they try to do the same. There's a little problem there...



.

bam!

[weisan]

I would caution against over-simplifying the fitting process and undermining the value and the experience that some of the fitters out there bring to bear. That's just as "bad" as over-glamorizing and over-complicating the whole process.
There is more than one road that leads to Rome.

One way:

http://alicehui.com/bike/fit/miyaki4.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/fit/miyaki.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/fit/miyaki2.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/fit/miyaki3.jpg


Another way:

http://alicehui.com/bike/fit/dojo3.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/fit/dojo2.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/fit/dojo.jpg


Only you can decide what way you personally "prefer".

[colker]

I would caution against over-simplifying the fitting process and undermining the value and the experience that some of the fitters out there bring to bear. That's just as "bad" as over-glamorizing and over-complicating the whole process.
There is more than one road that leads to Rome.




Only you can decide what way you personally "prefer".

What about a diy approach? Is it oversimplifying to adjust your bike untill you feel fast and comfortable?

[weisan]

adjust your bike until you feel fast and comfortable?

Yes, that's considered one of the many "ways", incidentally the one that I have chosen for myself...and there's nothing "simple" about that, it took time and was a dynamic learning process, one which is still ongoing after 30+ years...also, rather than "fast and comfortable", I choose stable and fluid as my "metrics".

[colker]

Yes, that's considered one of the many "ways", incidentally the one that I have chosen for myself...and there's nothing "simple" about that, it took time and was a dynamic learning process, one which is still ongoing after 30+ years.

Same experience here.:beer:

[peanutgallery]

Cobra Kai Never Dies!!!!

I would caution against over-simplifying the fitting process and undermining the value and the experience that some of the fitters out there bring to bear. That's just as "bad" as over-glamorizing and over-complicating the whole process.
There is more than one road that leads to Rome.

One way:

http://alicehui.com/bike/fit/miyaki4.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/fit/miyaki.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/fit/miyaki2.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/fit/miyaki3.jpg


Another way:

http://alicehui.com/bike/fit/dojo3.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/fit/dojo2.jpg

http://alicehui.com/bike/fit/dojo.jpg


Only you can decide what way you personally "prefer".

[Ti Designs]

I'm a little confused on the breathing thing, but I happen to have the means of testing on myself, so that's what I did. I can measure volume of inhaled or exhaled gasses, and I can rotate a laser line centered at my hip and keep that line centered on my torso.

I reached no conclusions here. The difference in volume from 25 degrees back angle to 55 degrees was below the margin of accuracy (we're talking pingpong ball valves here). To get any significant increase in volume I would have to sit straight up in the saddle and lean backwards.

[peanutgallery]

So...soon we will all be on custom built recumbents?

I'm a little confused on the breathing thing, but I happen to have the means of testing on myself, so that's what I did. I can measure volume of inhaled or exhaled gasses, and I can rotate a laser line centered at my hip and keep that line centered on my torso.

I reached no conclusions here. The difference in volume from 25 degrees back angle to 55 degrees was below the margin of accuracy (we're talking pingpong ball valves here). To get any significant increase in volume I would have to sit straight up in the saddle and lean backwards.

[jamesau]

I'm a little confused on the breathing thing...

They're probably considering using one's diaphragm exclusively ('belly breathing') when they consider breathing. A hunched over/closed-hip position can restrict the full use of the diaphragm.

[victoryfactory]

This kid needs a fitting

[Mr Cabletwitch]

I'm not a bike fitter, but I am an experience Golf Club Fitter, been to a couple schools and to be honest for 90% of golfers its a waste of time and money. Most people don't make the exact same swing every time so fitting for an average usually brings everyone back to standard. I used to adjust people's clubs such a small amount I know it wouldn't make a difference but they didn't care they wanted custom. There is always that odd ball with weird proportions or some type of limitation that could use something custom but mostly it comes down to fitting shaft flex and loft which is similar to picking tire size and stiffness of a bike. I can't see bike fitting being that big of a deal for most people, but what do I know.

[William]

Cobra Kai Never Dies!!!!

Daniel was the real bully...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Gz_iTuRMM



:)



William

[colker]

Daniel was the real bully...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Gz_iTuRMM



:)



William

Awesome!!

[fiamme red]

Daniel was the real bully...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_Gz_iTuRMMThanks for the laugh. :D

[I Want Sachs?]

College cycling jerseys which are essentially replicas of football jerseys are so weird (and aesthetically horrific...especially the Big 10).

Hey, nothing wrong with me wanting to show my school pride! Ohio State is the largest university in US and plenty of support from alumni to help educate the next generation.

[mtechnica]

Is it oversimplifying to adjust your bike untill you feel fast and comfortable?

Not necessarily, that is if you understand what the changes you're making are doing.

I didn't read the rest of the thread but I must say... if you go to a bike race, by and large most of the bikes look and fit really close to the same, there is a reason for this.

[beeatnik]

Hey, nothing wrong with me wanting to show my school pride! Ohio State is the largest university in US and plenty of support from alumni to help educate the next generation.

Win on Saturday, go work for a Michigan grad on Monday.

[I Want Sachs?]

Win on Saturday, go work for a Michigan grad on Monday.
My bosses are from Brown and MIT in the Northeast. Have not worked with Michigan guys too much.

[beeatnik]

My bosses are from Brown and MIT in the Northeast. Have not worked with Michigan guys too much.

I have, unfortunately.

[Happy F]

A bunch of PhDs, MDs and PTs, along with a frame builder, all doing a fitting. Two questions:

1) will that produce a good rider?

2) how much does it cost?

If you can answer those two questions, you'll know if it's a step in the right direction...
1st I would like to apologize. I did not know you guys have commented on Ben's blog. I would've responded sooner had I found it. I am the bike fitter then Ben is talking about. I am not a PT I am not an MD I am not a physician's assistant I am a bike fitter. I have been fitting bikes for 40 years. I have taught for Ben I have lectured for others. But I am a bike fitter to answer your 1st question will the program will that produce great riders it has been for years. How much does it cost the hospital charges $250 an hour for my services. When we do this evaluation you get more than me we also start with the therapist or a trainer to do a musculoskeletal exam that is accurate. They are not there to fit you there only made-to-measure functions and given assessment. Then the idea the fitting mainstem the information gleaned from your exam. If you have any questions I will be more than willing to answer them sincerely Happy Freedman bike fitter Hospital for special surgery.