Decisions, decisions - culling the herd

[Clean39T]

Disclaimer: Yes, I spoiled myself. Yes, all these bikes are great and I'm fortunate to have any of them. And yes, I know I ultimately have to make the decision for myself..

With that out of the way, I'm interested in opinions on managing my stable down to a N=reasonable level, and am as much interested in opinions on individual bikes as I am hearing how others approach such decisions. I love all of these bikes for one reason or another, and if I had to keep one at random, I'd be happy riding it. But that isn't the situation, so I have decisions to make.

Here's what's in the garage, and a bit on how I'm currently feeling about each as I try to split hairs:

(1) Merlin Extralight with ENVE 2.0 (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=206139) - light, stiff, beautiful stays, iconic; race geometry and handling, but with a taller front end relative to my seat height than is probably optimal for me (it'd probably be just right for someone an inch or two taller with more reach).

(2) Holland Ti w ENVE 2.0 or Ouzo Pro (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=205861) - smooth, beautiful, incredible welds, and just amazing craftsmanship; but borderline too big/tall though, which means a shorter stem and rearward weight bias for me, or I go with a zero offset post that puts me a bit more forward - that works fine for cruising and has been comfortable for some decent miles, but seems to compromise my seated climbing

(3) Serotta Legend Ti w Ouzo Pro, Alpha Q, or F3 (maybe) (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=205939) - smooth, springy, stable; all in all just a perfect all-day type fit for me for any types of ride short of racing or dirt

(4) Yamaguchi Team USA (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=202158) - smooth, balanced, fits 27s, unique tubes and brazing, rare bird that won't land again; but the race geometry and long/low fit for me given my shortish reach relative to saddle height keeps it from being a perfect marriage.

(5) Moots Vamoots CR (2011) (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=207004) - only one short ride so far, race-ish geometry, handles well, smooth and quiet, and its got the Moots factor; but it's the most expensive and its more of a speeder-bike for me that wouldn't be a daily-driver given the aggressive fit; it's hard to give it a fair assessment though without more miles, and without riding it with Campy...

Just in typing this out, I think the decision is fairly obvious: keep the Legend Ti. All the rest should probably get released to new homes over time. And I should keep an eye out for some steel to fill the hole left by the Yamaguchi...maybe a CSi, or ?? Plenty of time to sort that out...

[Kirk007]

Sounds like that's the right decision. Going through a similar process myself and finding that all of these uber bikes have the right stuff but if the fit is off then its a compromise of the bike and if you don't have to live with that well then, you can do better and it sounds like the Legend is the better.

[Peter B]

legend
moots
yamaguchi

or sell them all and find your ideal custom fit and build.

[rustychisel]

No idea, but reading through the list I thought 'keep the Legend Ti'. Then read your concluding comments. Otherwise, not enough information for us to offer anything substantial (such as size, how you ride, how often, general fitness, flexibility, whether you prefer brunettes or blondes or Campagnolo or Shimano or SRAM)... not to mention what saddles suit best, what shoes and pedal system...

Good luck with your deliberations

[Hombre]

Not doubling up on bikes that have the same general purpose has made me much more satisfied with the few bikes I have.

[joosttx]

I would sell them all and buy a custom Spectrum or Baum. You have a bunch of old or mid level titanium bikes here less the yamaguchi. I would sell them all and get a modern top tier ti bike that fits you right.

[beeatnik]

^Hjoost, if he sells them all he can get about halfway to a Spectrum or buy a Baum stem.

OP, keep them all and sell a groupset or two. The Holland and Merlin are essentially worthless. And I mean that in the sense that you probably value your time at above minimum wage and spending two weeks marketing and shipping either frame would be a folly.

[Pastashop]

If it does not fit, you must not sit (on it)!

Discovering a bike that truly fit made me appreciate the time I wasted on bikes that fulfilled an erroneous idea...

That said, my fit changed over time... yours may also. Except you can't predict which way it'll go (more racy, more leisurely, etc), so rid yourself of unnecessary baggage and ride the one that actually fits. Then when your riding profile or fit changes, get a custom. :-)

[witcombusa]

Five bikes does not a herd make! More of a small group... :rolleyes:

If you 'love all these bikes' as you say, why get rid of any of them? If you have eyes for another bike, just get it and introduce it to 'the family'... :banana:

[oldpotatoe]

Disclaimer: Yes, I spoiled myself. Yes, all these bikes are great and I'm fortunate to have any of them. And yes, I know I ultimately have to make the decision for myself..

With that out of the way, I'm interested in opinions on managing my stable down to a N=reasonable level, and am as much interested in opinions on individual bikes as I am hearing how others approach such decisions. I love all of these bikes for one reason or another, and if I had to keep one at random, I'd be happy riding it. But that isn't the situation, so I have decisions to make.

Here's what's in the garage, and a bit on how I'm currently feeling about each as I try to split hairs:

(1) Merlin Extralight with ENVE 2.0 (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=206139) - light, stiff, beautiful stays, iconic; race geometry and handling, but with a taller front end relative to my seat height than is probably optimal for me (it'd probably be just right for someone an inch or two taller with more reach).

(2) Holland Ti w ENVE 2.0 or Ouzo Pro (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=205861) - smooth, beautiful, incredible welds, and just amazing craftsmanship; but borderline too big/tall though, which means a shorter stem and rearward weight bias for me, or I go with a zero offset post that puts me a bit more forward - that works fine for cruising and has been comfortable for some decent miles, but seems to compromise my seated climbing

(3) Serotta Legend Ti w Ouzo Pro, Alpha Q, or F3 (maybe) (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=205939) - smooth, springy, stable; all in all just a perfect all-day type fit for me for any types of ride short of racing or dirt

(4) Yamaguchi Team USA (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=202158) - smooth, balanced, fits 27s, unique tubes and brazing, rare bird that won't land again; but the race geometry and long/low fit for me given my shortish reach relative to saddle height keeps it from being a perfect marriage.

(5) Moots Vamoots CR (2011) (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=207004) - only one short ride so far, race-ish geometry, handles well, smooth and quiet, and its got the Moots factor; but it's the most expensive and its more of a speeder-bike for me that wouldn't be a daily-driver given the aggressive fit; it's hard to give it a fair assessment though without more miles, and without riding it with Campy...

Just in typing this out, I think the decision is fairly obvious: keep the Legend Ti. All the rest should probably get released to new homes over time. And I should keep an eye out for some steel to fill the hole left by the Yamaguchi...maybe a CSi, or ?? Plenty of time to sort that out...

What size? Got a nice 57cm Merckx Century FS...

[hollowgram5]

What size? Got a nice 57cm Merckx Century FS...
His bikes are all 59ish in top tube.

[oldpotatoe]

His bikes are all 59ish in top tube.

use a 14cm stem!! kidding thanks

But if it were me, I'd keep the Moots and Yamaguchi....

[macaroon]

I'd sell the ones that don't fit (four in total?) So you're left with the Serotta.

Then buy a nice light carbon bike that fits, and a steel bike that fits. Can't beat a bit of variety.

[R3awak3n]

I would keep the one that fits the best. Thats the smart move.

As far as brands go though, I would absolutely keep the guchi, thats the only one that is hard to replace and to me by far the coolest bike you have. However if it doesnt fit well, out with it.

Seems the legend is the best fitting. You could also put an enve fork on it.

You oregon guys on a tear this past year, btw you and Mizilliox, yall get new bikes weekly :) but interestingly enough you dont have a single pnw bike (and I have 3 :))

[Clean39T]

No idea, but reading through the list I thought 'keep the Legend Ti'. Then read your concluding comments. Otherwise, not enough information for us to offer anything substantial (such as size, how you ride, how often, general fitness, flexibility, whether you prefer brunettes or blondes or Campagnolo or Shimano or SRAM)... not to mention what saddles suit best, what shoes and pedal system...



Good luck with your deliberations


Thanks. I said nothing of the groups, wheels, or finishing kit because whatever gets kept will have my favorite stuff moved over to it: Record 11, Deda 35, and Campy factory wheels w a handbuilt backup.

[hollowgram5]

...Seems the legend is the best fitting. You could also put an enve fork on it...

Enve fork might not have the proper rake for the legend.. don't remember for sure but thinking they were quite different.

[Clean39T]

I would sell them all and buy a custom Spectrum or Baum. You have a bunch of old or mid level titanium bikes here less the yamaguchi. I would sell them all and get a modern top tier ti bike that fits you right.


Fit aside, what is a "modern" Ti frame going to get me that these don't have? Tire clearance? Fatter headtube w integrated headset? And disc brakes? I don't know that I need/want any of those.. If I went custom, it'd be the same style as these, at least for my daily-driver.

[hollowgram5]

I'll echo the other's sentiments. Ride what fits and speaks to you. I have a similar problem, and it'll be a challenge to part with some of them.

Too many duplicated bikes, and while the lady doesn't mind too much, they don't necessarily allow us to quickly respond to life changes.

[Hilltopperny]

I went through a similar situation with my bike purchasing over the past three years. This winter I built up a go fast titanium bike, bought a Mxxxxxo and ended up keeping my duende cross as a trail and all road style bike.

3 bikes seems like reasonable amount all things considered and there isn't much overlap between the 3. The premio r is my if the weather is sketchy/climbing/go fast bike with compact geo. The Mxxxxxo fits 28s, is fast, smooth and just about perfect for my all day nice weather needs. My duende fits massive rubber, can go anywhere I wish to take it and I built it up how I wanted to from the beginning.

[Clean39T]

If it does not fit, you must not sit (on it)!

Discovering a bike that truly fit made me appreciate the time I wasted on bikes that fulfilled an erroneous idea...

That said, my fit changed over time... yours may also. Except you can't predict which way it'll go (more racy, more leisurely, etc), so rid yourself of unnecessary baggage and ride the one that actually fits. Then when your riding profile or fit changes, get a custom. :-)


I'm glad I didn't go custom 6-9 months ago as this whole process (and the other bikes I've owned and ridden not listed here...there have been many) has helped me get a real-world feel for what fits from a style and size standpoint that two hours with a fitter may not have (or reading reviews). At this point the Legend is closest to what I'd call a perfect all-around fit for me, and the Moots/Yamaguchi closest to a race-day fit. So maybe it's best to keep those around for more testing to inform future "custom" decisions...

[cmbicycles]

You dont mention a budget, so must be limitless [emoji14] Its always so easy to spend other peoples money on the web. ;) My opinion is sell the Moots, Merlin, Holland as they all have fit compromises by your description, and while none will fund your retirement they could fund all or a large part of a top quality custom, figuring 1k +/- each for merlin/Holland framesets, double + for the moots, sell a couple groups/wheels to make up the rest. Then order a Spectrum/Kirk (or insert your builder of choice) to fit what you want a bike to do... or buy a carbon/aluminum race geometry frame if racing. If going the custom route, once that lands sell the Legend as it would likely be redundant.

If you find yourself not using the yamaguchi due to fit, while it's a unique bike (of which there seem to be so many nice unique bikes if you are patient) ... if you could put it into something steel that fits better you end up with a nice fitting unique steel bike instead of just a unique steel bike.

[Clean39T]

Five bikes does not a herd make! More of a small group... :rolleyes:



If you 'love all these bikes' as you say, why get rid of any of them? If you have eyes for another bike, just get it and introduce it to 'the family'... :banana:


Lols. The herd has to fit the space - you are right though, it's more of a small family ;)

If they all fit, I'd keep all but the true duplicates...but they don't, and I'm seeing that has to be the determining factor in step one of the decision process.

The "love" for each of them is more just appreciation for the styling and craftsmanship, along with a general love for bikes that makes it hard for me not to have good things to say about anything I swing a leg over...

[charliedid]

Based on what you wrote, the Legend is the only bike that "works."

[msl819]

It seems to me that the Ti rides are a bit redundant. That said, I would think that the Yamaguchi in that size is a rare find and replacing it with a steel ride as good or better would be hard. I'd suggest pulling a Campy group off another bike, putting it in the Y and sending all but your favoriteTi ride down the road. Or keep them all and buy a house next door to me and give me permission to ride any at will!

[chiasticon]

keep whatever fits the best, unless it rides like garbage or something.

then figure out why it fits the best, and use that data to inform future purchasing decisions. so you don't again wind up with five pretty similar bikes, most of which only kinda-sorta fit.

[jmoore]

What size is the Holland? 59tt

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[sparky33]

I've always wanted to ride a Baum stem.
^Hjoost, if he sells them all he can get about halfway to a Spectrum or buy a Baum stem.

Don't think too much about which bike makes the most sense for whatever reason. Instead keep the bike that has the most mojo when you ride it. You probably already know which one that is.

[john903]

Humm Tough choice. Here is my opinion keep the Yamaguchi for the cool factor and your fast day bike and keep the Serotta for your do it all bike. Sell the others and use the money for new bibs, jersey from Eleven Velo. Take the rest and go on a road trip with the family (or by yourself) to a place you have never been before. This is kind of what I have planned and am saving up for my 60th birthday in a few years a road trip and bike trip to Colorado.
Anyway have a great day.

[Clean39T]

Enve fork might not have the proper rake for the legend.. don't remember for sure but thinking they were quite different.

The ENVE on the Holland is a 43mm rake, so it'd work, but I'm one of the few people who isn't a big fan of ENVE forks...so it'll be the Ouzo, Alpha, or F3 for the Legend...

[Clean39T]

What size is the Holland? 59tt

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Holland is 60.5TT

[Clean39T]

then figure out why it fits the best, and use that data to inform future purchasing decisions. so you don't again wind up with five pretty similar bikes, most of which only kinda-sorta fit.

I think that's the right call - keep the closest one and use that as a template +/- for a custom purchase later in the year...

[jmoore]

Holland is 60.5TT
ST
Ht??

(I really should not be asking these questions)

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[rodcad]

I think that's the right call - keep the closest one and use that as a template +/- for a custom purchase later in the year...

So what do you consider your perfect sized frame c-c x c-c? Headtube length?

[Ken Robb]

I agree that you should keep the Legend. I would add a ti or steel bike that can use fatter tires. Since none of us are getting younger and more flexible I wouldn't get or keep a bike that is already slightly too aggressive when it comes to fit. I would guess you would ride it less and less over time. This IS the voice of experience. :)

[beeatnik]

I've always wanted to ride a Baum stem.


Don't think too much about which bike makes the most sense for whatever reason. Instead keep the bike that has the most mojo when you ride it. You probably already know which one that is.

Painted stems from a Ti maker are so weird.

[Clean39T]

I agree that you should keep the Legend. I would add a ti or steel bike that can use fatter tires. Since none of us are getting younger and more flexible I wouldn't get or keep a bike that is already slightly too aggressive when it comes to fit. I would guess you would ride it less and less over time. This IS the voice of experience. :)

Yes. I already decided I don't have an urge to race short/fast, so gravitating to things that ride well over long distances is the right call for me..

[Clean39T]

ST
Ht??

(I really should not be asking these questions)

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IIRC, ST is 62-ish CTC, and HT is 21-ish.

Full measurements tonight.

[jmoore]

IIRC, ST is 62-ish CTC, and HT is 21-ish.

Full measurements tonight.
Sigh. How much?

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[joosttx]

Fit aside, what is a "modern" Ti frame going to get me that these don't have? Tire clearance? Fatter headtube w integrated headset? And disc brakes? I don't know that I need/want any of those.. If I went custom, it'd be the same style as these, at least for my daily-driver.


A better rdiing bike that is tailored (note I did not say fit) to you. The two brands I mentioned do not add those modern features on their standard bikes. If you want them you can get them. Its true, Tom Kellogg is making better ti bikes than what he was welding when he was at Merlin. So if you truely want to spoil yourself like you say in the original post I would consider doing what I suggested. I really think you would be happy and spoiled :)

[John H.]

I agree with joosttx.
Take what you have learned and distill it into one new bike.
Sell all the others.

[hollowgram5]

Sigh. How much?

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:beer:

[jmoore]

[emoji481]
I can't do it [emoji25]

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[pdmtong]

I would sell them all and buy a custom Spectrum or Baum. You have a bunch of old or mid level titanium bikes here less the yamaguchi. I would sell them all and get a modern top tier ti bike that fits you right.

A better rdiing bike that is tailored (note I did not say fit) to you. The two brands I mentioned do not add those modern features on their standard bikes. If you want them you can get them. Its true, Tom Kellogg is making better ti bikes than what he was welding when he was at Merlin. So if you truely want to spoil yourself like you say in the original post I would consider doing what I suggested. I really think you would be happy and spoiled :)

I agree with joosttx.
Take what you have learned and distill it into one new bike.
Sell all the others.

I'm in the "sell them all and get one made for you" camp as well

You are not a stock size, so that legend while possibly fitting best, still isn't as dialed for you as it could be.

the rest might as well be 50cm bikes with 650c wheels. they dont fit. so it doesn't matter how close they are to your ideal, they still don't fit. why waste limited riding time on a sub-optimal experience. life is too short.

plenty of modern ti choices.

[KidWok]

You and I seem to ride the same size and we live close enough to each other, so maybe we should arrange our binging and purging cycles to be more aligned with each other? :banana::banana:

I hear ya...I've moved three bikes along this last year and acquired one, so I'm N-2 in the last 12 months. The process of playing with all these bike is really fun and has helped me nail down the exact geometry and handling characteristics that I prefer. Have gotten to the point where I don't know what else to get rid off because they're all pretty damn perfect for me. That said, it helps not to think about the bike's brand prestige and/or rarity. Sometimes you just got to let them go if they don't fit you perfect or ride the way you want.

Tai

[mhespenheide]

You've got the resources, apparently, to go for the best -- or at least 99 or 99.9% of it.

Don't compromise on fit. If something's a little off, it's still off. (At this level)

Keep the Serotta and sell the rest, or sell all of them and go custom. The Yamaguchi, as cool as it is, is still a compromise.

[Clean39T]

You've got the resources, apparently, to go for the best -- or at least 99 or 99.9% of it.

Don't compromise on fit. If something's a little off, it's still off. (At this level)

Keep the Serotta and sell the rest, or sell all of them and go custom. The Yamaguchi, as cool as it is, is still a compromise.


Well, the resources aren't unlimited by any means; the plan was always to reduce back to just a couple or few bikes after trying out more. These have all been bought at reasonable prices and will be sold at the same, so it's not like I'm buying retail and then giving it away.. There's time and sweat-equity in it, but I enjoy working on bikes, so that's more a benefit than a cost for me.

Still, I'm thinking you're right about not compromising long term. The Serotta is all I "need" at the moment and will be a fine place to park myself while I consider a custom setup - and then wait in line to get it..

I'm going to put a little more time on the Yamaguchi though before it goes. I want to be really sure on that one if/when.

[Clean39T]

...it helps not to think about the bike's brand prestige and/or rarity. Sometimes you just got to let them go if they don't fit you perfect or ride the way you want.




Good point there.

I'd be happy to show you around some roads in Portland next time you're down. And it's always fun to be able to swap rides with someone your size...a much more practical way to try more bikes :)

[John H.]

I think what others are suggesting is that you have 4 bikes that essentially do the same thing, but none of them are perfect for for.
So use the $ from the not-perfect ones to fund 1 perfect frame that was designed for you.
After that- you can think about continuing to build the fleet- or not, if you are happy with the one perfect one.

For me, I don't like to have redundant bikes.
So I have 1 go fast rim brake race type bike, a gravel bike, a winter bike with fenders, and at least 1 mountain bike.

[d_douglas]

Yes, it seems fun to try out all these 'Grail' bikes from years ago, but I think that design and fabrication is so good now that there isn't much point in compromising fit. And I agree that having redundant bikes is pointless (for me, since I am a non-racer)

I once had two top tier road bikes and I actually felt kinda stupid owning them both (but that might be as the result of a very modest salary and people wondering how I managed to own both of them?) so I sold the one that didn't fit quite as well (a Crumpton) and kept the one that was custom for me. I still have it and it provides acres of fun for me because it fits so well.

If I want a new road bike, this one will have to go. I wont have two pure road bikes. The upside to selling the Crumpton was that it made me realize how utterly beautiful those bikes are. Just need to start saving my cash and line-up my kidney donation paperwork...

[tim.bikeparty]

i agree with keeping the serotta for sure

i also agree with other's sentiments that most all of these are very similar, my stable personally tends to be much more diverse.

question about the merlin... you say the front end is too tall, but you seem to have room to drop the stem a good bit? that seems like a great bike that you speak fondly of other than that component.

i could also see an argument for keeping the yamaguchi. it's not my personal taste, but if you like it and you know you will never find another and don't need to sell it for financial or space reasons, i say keep it. it doesn't have to be a perfect fit for all day rides, you have the serotta for that. the yam can be your special occasion bike.

[pdmtong]

since Legend were all custom, I wouldn't attach additional ownership value to the legend UNLESS you know the geo chart and it is indeed as you might have spec'd it (no compromises) AND you knew the rider weight + design goal. The latter determines the tubes selected and placement.

This is why a new bike could best the legend in terms of ride delivered, despite the exclusivity and uniqueness of serotta titanium triple butting

[FlashUNC]

Ditch 'em all and go custom. Having seen some recent Spectrums in the flesh, they're going to be more noteworthy having been built for you and Tom's probably gotten even better at building bikes than the 15 year old Legend in the stable.

I mean, Baum is custom butting every tube for each frame. No bike you've got in the quiver is doing that kind of thing.

Distill it all down. What joostx said. Course, I'm the weirdo with two custom road bikes. So what do I know.

[Heisenberg]

I would sell them all and buy a custom Spectrum or Baum. You have a bunch of old or mid level titanium bikes here less the yamaguchi. I would sell them all and get a modern top tier ti bike that fits you right.

This, duh. Why do you have a grip of secondhand custom Ti rigs? You need one for you.

Keep the Yamaguchi. That's a special bike. I know special bikes. The rest are whatever.

[Clean39T]

since Legend were all custom, I wouldn't attach additional ownership value to the legend UNLESS you know the geo chart and it is indeed as you might have spec'd it (no compromises) AND you knew the rider weight + design goal. The latter determines the tubes selected and placement.



This is why a new bike could best the legend in terms of ride delivered, despite the exclusivity and uniqueness of serotta titanium triple butting


This specific Legend was built for Jeff N., so I know its angles. He was a bit more robust than me, but I believe asked for it to be a spirited all-rounder (for lack of a better descriptive), not particularly soft or flexy. That rings true with the ride experience.

The Holland was built for Nobuseri and was spec'd with 1" stays for stiffness. Also rings true with the ride quality.

The Merlin was off the peg and built as a racer per their materials.

And the Yamaguchi was built for Ed to be a sporty 73* on both ends running 25-27s with a longer/lower position.

None of that makes them custom for me, but at least I have decent background on them.

I do agree though that a full custom built just for me is going to be the best fit...and is what I'll be aiming for...

[Kirk007]

I've gone through a similar process - as DDouglas said its fun trying out "grail" bikes and I just sold a Spectrum that was great but not quite a fit; have a C50 for sale - same thing. In line for a Spectrum of my own with disc brakes (and I think Tom would agree that with refinements in tubesets etc that he can get you a better bike today, both in fit and design/construction than the Merlin). I'm also in line for a Hampsten Squadra carbon bike as I really liked the Colnago (as compared to other carbon bikes I'd tried in the past) and Steve's design philosophy will I think result in a nice balanced carbon bike. Note the commonality: both bikes designed to fit me but reflecting lessons learned on other bikes.

Having said all that I just got back from riding a 10 year old steel bike that gives up nothing to any of the others I've tried in the past decade - a Kirk - made to measure for me with S&S couplers for traveling. They only non-custom bike that will leave me with is a ten year old Pegoretti Marcelo, and that's a special one too, but if I get the chance and $$ down the road that one may well be replaced by a custom Peg- perche no?.

[PNW]

Well, the resources aren't unlimited by any means; the plan was always to reduce back to just a couple or few bikes after trying out more. These have all been bought at reasonable prices and will be sold at the same, so it's not like I'm buying retail and then giving it away.. There's time and sweat-equity in it, but I enjoy working on bikes, so that's more a benefit than a cost for me.

Still, I'm thinking you're right about not compromising long term. The Serotta is all I "need" at the moment and will be a fine place to park myself while I consider a custom setup - and then wait in line to get it..

I'm going to put a little more time on the Yamaguchi though before it goes. I want to be really sure on that one if/when.

Good call. That's what I ended up doing...I had that Time and the fit wasn't there for me and found the Moots which is perfect for me so I plan on keeping the Moots until the resources are there to finish my queue on a custom frame. I sold the Time and my next bike will be a mountain/gravel for sure.

Just do what feels best. Everyone has their own opinion of which bike to keep but it's what you like the most, not what other people like. Whatever route you decide to go it will be amazing because you have such good taste Dan.

[soulspinner]

i'd sell the ones that don't fit (four in total?) so you're left with the serotta.

Then buy a nice light carbon bike that fits, and a steel bike that fits. Can't beat a bit of variety.

this

[happycampyer]

I went through a similar process before deciding on a custom frame (actually more than once, but that's beside the point), and one thing I would recommend is, if you are planning on going the custom route eventually and have an idea in mind which builder(s) you're interested in, try to find a bike that fits you from that builder (or those builders). It's hard to call the guys at Firefly (for example) and say, "I have this Serotta/Merlin/Holland (etc.) and want you to build me one that's x, y or z different." Otoh, if you can say, I bought frame serial number x, and I love everything about it except [ ]." It's a much easier conversation, and you're more likely to get exactly what you want in terms of fit, handling, stiffness/comfort, etc.

Of the bikes you have, you could go to Holland and have that conversation. You could do that with Moots, too. If you liked the ride of the Moots the best, you could look for a post-2010 Vamoots that has a less racy geo, or get a new one.

As far as what to do with the current crop, keep the one that fits and rides the best, and keep it until you find something you like better.

[weisan]

I have exactly ONE custom bike and numerous others non-custom. I doubt I would ever get another custom. I used to trade bikes like horses but not anymore. It took me a while to get here. A lot of experimentation. Now, I have learned to appreciate the uniqueness of every bike that I have, the differences, how they each ride and fit a bit differently. Also, I tend to look at them more as a functional tool, each has an intended purpose. And whenever I am using them for that purpose, they shine so very brightly and bring me a lot of joy and satisfaction.

Custom is not the be all and end all answer.

Self-awareness is.

[R3awak3n]

I have exactly ONE custom bike and numerous others non-custom. I doubt I would ever get another custom. I used to trade bikes like horses but not anymore. It took me a while to get here. A lot of experimentation. Now, I have learned to appreciate the uniqueness of every bike that I have, the differences, how they each ride and fit a bit differently. Also, I tend to look at them more as a functional tool, each has an intended purpose. And whenever I am using them for that purpose, they shine so very brightly and bring me a lot of joy and satisfaction.

Custom is not the be all and end all answer.

Self-awareness is.

Very well said Weisan. I know when a bike doesnt fit but I have a few different bikes, all with different measuments and different geos and love ridding them all. I never had a custom and I am sure its great and I know I will have one some day but I really enjoy my 3 current bikes, they all feel very comfortable to me.

[happycampyer]

<snip>
Custom is not the be all and end all answer.This more true than many realize. I know a lot of people who have bought custom bikes, and easily more than half have had an experience where they didn't like what they got for one reason or another, either right away, or over time. To give an example of my own experience, when the RSL was introduced, I test rode one and was smitten. I ordered one custom in a geo that fit me (the stock geo is too low for me). It took a while for me to come around to realize that the frame was way too stiff for me. In that case, it wasn't even a "leap of faith" which many custom commissions are. I was able to test ride in advance and got exactly what I asked for--but over time I realized that what I really wanted was something different. Which brings me to...

<snip>
Self-awareness is.Figure out what you like. I bet the process you went through has taught you a lot about what you do and don't like. That process really never ends. Over time you may find something you like better, and over time your preferences are likely to change.

[paredown]

Great thread--been otherwise occupied so I'm chiming in late.

For me, coming back to the sport after not riding very much for at least a couple of decades (<gulp>), I feel like my voyage of exploration is going in two directions.

The first is a sort of 'fill in the blanks'--going back and trying to experience some of the highlights of the intervening years--looking for the commonality with what I experienced with the high-end bikes of the seventies, but also to try to figure out a little of what people experienced in the later periods. Oversize tubing, new tubing, different geos, etc and although I have been on a fairly modest budget I have tried out a variety of frames. For this stuff I have a frame of reference, because for a long time (into the 80s/90s) the changes are not so dramatic that you hop on and it does not feel at all like what you remember.

The second is to try out a little of the 'modern'--where (at least to me) the evolution seems to have jumped a step or three--carbon (building one now), fairly modern titanium (had one, liked it a lot), still would like to try out a race ready alu bike from the period just before carbon took over the peloton. Budget (or lack of one) has prevented me from doing more of this.

Not sure where I will end up either, but nostalgia is not going to work for me (although I love the guys over on Classic Rendezvous). I tell my lovely wife it is like the dating phase in your twenties where you are trying things out...

I do think the CSi (although a recent purchase) is a keeper--to me it is the realization of what I always loved in a steel frame, and that I have only experienced three times--a pre-high volume/pre California Masi (not mine), a custom Peter Mooney that passed through my hands (built for someone else that must be very similar in weight/size) that was built in the late '80s, and the CSi.

On my list for tryouts--in no particular order--a Merckx MXL, Time VXRS (or variant), A C40/C50, a high zoot titanium and the aforementioned aluminum boy racer bike...

[SpokeValley]

I have exactly ONE custom bike and numerous others non-custom. I doubt I would ever get another custom. I used to trade bikes like horses but not anymore. It took me a while to get here. A lot of experimentation. Now, I have learned to appreciate the uniqueness of every bike that I have, the differences, how they each ride and fit a bit differently. Also, I tend to look at them more as a functional tool, each has an intended purpose. And whenever I am using them for that purpose, they shine so very brightly and bring me a lot of joy and satisfaction.

Custom is not the be all and end all answer.

Self-awareness is.

I like your take, Weisan partner. :beer:

My bikes want me to ride them. It's sometimes hard to spread the "me" around. ;0)

[rustychisel]

i agree with keeping the serotta for sure

i also agree with other's sentiments that most all of these are very similar, my stable personally tends to be much more diverse.

question about the merlin... you say the front end is too tall, but you seem to have room to drop the stem a good bit? that seems like a great bike that you speak fondly of other than that component.

i could also see an argument for keeping the yamaguchi. it's not my personal taste, but if you like it and you know you will never find another and don't need to sell it for financial or space reasons, i say keep it. it doesn't have to be a perfect fit for all day rides, you have the serotta for that. the yam can be your special occasion bike.

This seems about right for a well-reasoned post.

It's worth noting that those who need a custom bike is approximately n-1, unless you're a hobbit or a pro basketballer.

I have 2 custom bikes which I will never ever sell, and neither was built for me. One is Mark Renshaw's old bike, he had it slammed with a 130mm stem, but I like to roll with about 10mm spacer and 110mm stem. It's just what it is, and it fits me perfectly.

[FlashUNC]

Custom isn't the be-all, end-all, but you're way more likely to get what you want ordering a custom over, say, taking someone else's custom order and making it work for you.

Its like going to a restaurant and having someone order for me. Sure, most of the time I bet the meal they'll get me would be fine. But every once in a while its a jerk who thinks strawberries and chicken belong in a salad together, and the result is just wrong.

Just strikes me as a lot of experimentation when you generally know what you want. So why ride 4 middling bikes when you can at least have a crack at one really awesome one that's what you want?

[54ny77]

sometimes sloppy seconds are awesome.

sometimes, not so much.

the journey is at least half the fun! :hello:

(although admittedly, before being introduced to this forum, i had one road bike for years and made it work for pretty much everything!)

[bismo37]

Keep what you'll regret having sold. Sell the rest if you're questioning their place. I'm another vote for buying a custom Ti now that you have a better appreciation of what you like. I'd get a Hampsten GP Ti if "fast and Ti" are your starting points.

I went through a number of bikes, figuring out what I liked and what I didn't. Eventually, I found that I had a core group of 4 bikes that I was hesitant to sell (or would regret selling), while 1 or two other bikes were getting rotated out with new ones.

Some I sold due to fit issues, handling issues or too much similarity with something else I owned. Some I sold to buy a different type of bike. For now I feel content with my current group of 6 which is weird as hell to hear myself say. Each bike seems to fill some self-perceived niche in my bike needs.

[fuzzalow]

Buying a custom bike is not all that common myth often makes it out to be. Custom helps if the client knows what he is doing or even so if a client knows that this particular custom bike is built for a reason in meeting a need the client wants in a bike.

In some respects, buying custom is a discovery process and the more you know and have experienced increases the odds of success. And in many ways, success is something completely at the discretion and perception of the client. So success itself is often ephemeral and fleeting.

I'd caution not to get into a builder's space by specifying frame specs pertaining to some desire for handling qualities - no client knows how rake, trail, front-center, bb drop, chainstay length, yada, yada, yada translates into a ride quality other than repeating junk science read on the web. And even if this were true that a client thinks he can design a ride geometry, it won't mean ding if he doesn't know how to fit & position himself in the bike. Easy to take a good bike and screw it up with a bad fit.©

No bike is worth keeping if it doesn't give you what you want. It is possible to get to a point where the bikes have no compromises for what you want out of them but getting to that state of bicycle nirvana is less the bike and more the rider. That discovery process is what offers much of the magic to be experienced in this sport. Any bike is useful only in service towards that end.

There is never any regret over a bike, there is only regret for what you haven't done.

[T-Crush]

Its like going to a restaurant and having someone order for me. Sure, most of the time I bet the meal they'll get me would be fine. But every once in a while its a jerk who thinks strawberries and chicken belong in a salad together, and the result is just wrong.

I completely understand your point, but one of the best meals of my life was in NYC when my boss took us to a 5 star restaurant and said to the chef, "Whatever you suggest." I guess the analogy is I'd be happy to have Mr. Sachs or Kirk or Bedford "order for me" and not worry about getting chicken and strawberries. At my local IHOP, well, not so much.

[Mzilliox]

Custom isn't the be-all, end-all, but you're way more likely to get what you want ordering a custom over, say, taking someone else's custom order and making it work for you.

Its like going to a restaurant and having someone order for me. Sure, most of the time I bet the meal they'll get me would be fine. But every once in a while its a jerk who thinks strawberries and chicken belong in a salad together, and the result is just wrong.

Just strikes me as a lot of experimentation when you generally know what you want. So why ride 4 middling bikes when you can at least have a crack at one really awesome one that's what you want?

mmmmm, strawberries with goat cheese, avo and chicken on a salad with a balsamic is so good. you won't like my bikes either i guess.:banana:

[John H.]

Many of you have said that most don't need custom-

But, other than Moots- the titanium frame market is almost 100% custom builders or frame shops.

So why not custom?

It doesn't have to be a frame with a really oddball geometry to be custom.

[Clean39T]

I did not expect 60-ish replies of solid food-for-thought - thanks all!

After spending time stripping the Holland and Moots last night though, I'm still not 100% set on what to do. I'm definitely selling the Moots - it's just more than I need/want to have invested in my "racer" bike - the Holland though is requesting rehearing/mistrial...

I dug up my fit-sheet from earlier in the year on the Tarmac Pro Race 61cm I had at the time, and there's no reason I can't put the Holland in exactly the same position, or at least within 5mm - I just built it wrong to start with:

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170627/9c8eb8996e16280be2fd9b3b645f3ace.jpg

So, I guess I'm going to give myself a "Top-3" to get all in fully built and tuned condition before making a final decision on which Ti one to let go and whether to keep the Yamaguchi.

This is all reminding me that not so long ago I had a great bike that fit me and rode really well. The only reason I sold it was for the "fun" of searching out something incrementally more special - Campy instead of Dura Ace, Ti instead of mass-produced carbon, etc. And now here I am...

[FlashUNC]

I completely understand your point, but one of the best meals of my life was in NYC when my boss took us to a 5 star restaurant and said to the chef, "Whatever you suggest." I guess the analogy is I'd be happy to have Mr. Sachs or Kirk or Bedford "order for me" and not worry about getting chicken and strawberries. At my local IHOP, well, not so much.

Well yeah. But that's having the chef make it for you. Not some rando you ran into in the restaurant ordering something maybe he wants that you'll then try to make work for you.

Wayyyyy different expectations there.

[Clean39T]

Custom is not the be all and end all answer.



Self-awareness is.


Mic-dropped.

The question of course is how to develop the self-awareness. Without instruction, it's kind of like saying, "hey man, just be present and everything will be chill". Sure. It's easy. It may take a lifetime to get there for some though. Others? Sudden enlightenment. And The Dude Abides.

Anyway, I'm hoping this current experience helps there. I've ridden a LOT of bikes in my day. Some I've liked, some not so much. I do wish I'd taken better notes along the way, but even without that, I could run through a list of things that didn't inspire me about many of them. When I get to the custom process, I'll be bringing all that to my conversation with the builder.

And I'll be going custom for three reasons:

(1) a good, informed fit from a professional who can look at me and what I'm riding, and help make an informed choice among the golden-mean of tried-n-true bike geometry norms - I wouldn't be looking for some strange geometry just for the sake of it being unique

(2) supporting an artisan and helping to keep the craft alive

(3) the fun of the process of getting a unique aesthetic design - logo, paint, etc.

[mhespenheide]

...
When I get to the custom process, I'll be bringing all that to my conversation with the builder.

And I'll be going custom for three reasons:

(1) a good, informed fit from a professional who can look at me and what I'm riding, and help make an informed choice among the golden-mean of tried-n-true bike geometry norms - I wouldn't be looking for some strange geometry just for the sake of it being unique

(2) supporting an artisan and helping to keep the craft alive

(3) the fun of the process of getting a unique aesthetic design - logo, paint, etc.

Fun! And, may I gently suggest -- if I were going for custom Ti and living in Portland, personally I'd go down to Mike DeSalvo in Ashland.

[John H.]

Don't mistake an artisan frame builder for a bike fitter who can translate what they see into the best fitting bike you have ever ridden.
They may or may not be one in the same.

Mic-dropped.

The question of course is how to develop the self-awareness. Without instruction, it's kind of like saying, "hey man, just be present and everything will be chill". Sure. It's easy. It may take a lifetime to get there for some though. Others? Sudden enlightenment. And The Dude Abides.

Anyway, I'm hoping this current experience helps there. I've ridden a LOT of bikes in my day. Some I've liked, some not so much. I do wish I'd taken better notes along the way, but even without that, I could run through a list of things that didn't inspire me about many of them. When I get to the custom process, I'll be bringing all that to my conversation with the builder.

And I'll be going custom for three reasons:

(1) a good, informed fit from a professional who can look at me and what I'm riding, and help make an informed choice among the golden-mean of tried-n-true bike geometry norms - I wouldn't be looking for some strange geometry just for the sake of it being unique

(2) supporting an artisan and helping to keep the craft alive

(3) the fun of the process of getting a unique aesthetic design - logo, paint, etc.

[merckxman]

I've gone through alot of bike (6) culling recently. It seemed daunting but I haven't had any withdrawal symptons. I kept only a couple of bikes, those that gave me the greatest riding pleasure. Who made it, the material, was not a consideration.