OT: Smaller legal job markets for a new lawyer in California and Oregon

[doomridesout]

I know there are plenty of attorneys on the forum with similar lifestyle priorities, so I thought I'd ask: I'm going to be graduating law school in 2018 and taking the California bar, and I want to lay groundwork for a move with my wife and soon-to-be-born daughter. I'm looking for advice on smaller cities with great riding, that are family friendly, have a lower cost of living, and have a sufficient legal market for me to find work. I'm currently in Davis and I'm working in Sacramento this summer. I think there will be opportunity in the area for me that I'd seriously consider in the absence of something solid elsewhere. I wanted to go to the Bay or LA I could make that happen, but we'd prefer not to do that. Further north is preferable and we've considered Oregon. Getting barred in both states has crossed my mind. Is anyone on the forum an attorney with a humane, family-friendly work life, able to do kick-ass rides in the mountains somewhere in the less populous parts of the West Coast? Does anyone know what the legal job markets in Ashland, Eugene, Medford, Grant's Pass, or Humboldt County are like?
Thanks in advance.

[Peter B]

<snip>

Is anyone on the forum an attorney with a humane, family-friendly work life, able to do kick-ass rides in the mountains somewhere in the less populous parts of the West Coast? Does anyone know what the legal job markets in Ashland, Eugene, Medford, Grant's Pass, or Humboldt County are like?
Thanks in advance.

$$ will likely be proportionate to 'suffering' but this is a great question to ask early in your career. This stretch of the Pacific NW offers incredible riding and environment if one can find adequate income. Several forumites hail from this region and might be able to offer feedback.

Did you happen to specialize in law as it relates to the evolving medical/recreational pot industry? Skills in that area in that area will likely be in demand given recent CA ballot initiatives and apparent inclinations of the new US AG. :bike:

Best of luck in your next venture Willie!

[ofcounsel]

Is anyone on the forum an attorney with a humane, family-friendly work life, able to do kick-ass rides in the mountains somewhere in the less populous parts of the West Coast?

Coming out of Columbia Law, I did what many of my classmates did and took a job with a "Big Law" firm. The money was really great, in particular when you consider how little 1st year lawyers are actually worth. But the pressure of billable hours really tough and took a toll on my sanity. "Life" kinda sucked during that time of my life.

So after 4 years of Big Law, I made my escape and took a job with the in-house law department of on our local investor-owned utilities. The pay was initially significantly less than I was making in Big Law (I took about a 40% pay cut). But in trade, I had a great work environment. Basically, I had "regular" 9 to 5 work hours for the most part, vacation time I didn't have to worry about canceling at the last minute and the mental health/stability to foster a healthy family/home environment.

I've since moved on to another in-house law department, and I've been at my current gig for 7 years. So after about 15 years of in-house law practice, I still have a very solid work-life balance, no chasing after clients, and no billable hours. I have plenty of time for my kids activities and for my riding.

The pay is nowhere near what a "big law" partner with my years of experience makes, but I make about what a partner at a "smallish" firm in LA/NYC would make... And that's pretty good all things considered.

So if you're looking for something along those lines, consider looking at in-house gigs. Admittedly, it's sometimes a challenge to get an in-house gig right of of school, but some digging often turns up a few positions. The Association of Corporate Counsel is a good resources for in-house jobs. http://www.acc.com
Linkedin is another decent source for in-house positions.

[ptourkin]

Coming out of Columbia Law, I did what many of my classmates did and took a job with a "Big Law" firm. The money was really great, in particular when you consider how little 1st year lawyers are actually worth. But the pressure of billable hours really tough and took a toll on my sanity. "Life" kinda sucked during that time of my life.

So after 4 years of Big Law, I made my escape and took a job with the in-house law department of on our local investor-owned utilities. The pay was initially significantly less than I was making in Big Law (I took about a 40% pay cut). But in trade, I had a great work environment. Basically, I had "regular" 9 to 5 work hours for the most part, vacation time I didn't have to worry about canceling at the last minute and the mental health/stability to foster a healthy family/home environment.

I've since moved on to another in-house law department, and I've been at my current gig for 7 years. So after about 15 years of in-house law practice, I still have a very solid work-life balance, no chasing after clients, and no billable hours. I have plenty of time for my kids activities and for my riding.

The pay is nowhere near what a "big law" partner with my years of experience makes, but I make about what a partner at a "smallish" firm in LA/NYC would make... And that's pretty good all things considered.

So if you're looking for something along those lines, consider looking at in-house gigs. Admittedly, it's sometimes a challenge to get an in-house gig right of of school, but some digging often turns up a few positions. The Association of Corporate Counsel is a good resources for in-house jobs. http://www.acc.com
Linkedin is another decent source for in-house positions.

Same. Went from the other NY Ivy to government and then the world's biggest law firm. Money was fun but life was hell. The job was incompatible with a healthy lifestyle for me.

Working for the government was closer to 9-5 than anything I've done in the law. Or, as Peter B suggested, if you have time to develop a good niche specialty and can learn the business aspects of a solo practice, you can have greater control of your life if your financial goals are reasonable. Looking back, I wish I had taken this path from the beginning. Find a developing sector and see what they need. I have a relative who glommed on to the cellular industry and learned the ins and outs of the law regarding cell towers before anyone knew what they were. It became very lucrative.

Regarding the marijuana industry, I knew someone who was doing law school while bartending just as the craft beer boom was beginning in San Diego. She created her own specialty and AFAIK was one of the goto attorneys in the sector as it grew. Now the big firms have practice groups who do this.

Good luck.

[jtakeda]

$$ will likely be proportionate to 'suffering' but this is a great question to ask early in your career. This stretch of the Pacific NW offers incredible riding and environment if one can find adequate income. Several forumites hail from this region and might be able to offer feedback.

Did you happen to specialize in law as it relates to the evolving medical/recreational pot industry? Skills in that area in that area will likely be in demand given recent CA ballot initiatives and apparent inclinations of the new US AG. :bike:

Best of luck in your next venture Willie!

Doesn't mofo specialize in marijuana law?

[EDS]

While not an easy thing for a new lawyer, and law students in particular, to determine, think about the type of practice you want to have - do you want a specialty (hard not to have one these days), do you want to litigate, do you want a transactional based practice, or is there a particular industry you are interested in (and even then you would want to think about whether you want to focus on regulatory issues, litigation matters or transactions)? Thinking about those questions may inform you as to legal markets that offer opportunities in areas you are interested in.

If you are not sure, maybe try and find something where you can dip your toes in a few different buckets and then, after a year or two, decide if there is something specific that moves the needle for you.

[Kirk007]

That stretch of Oregon you are looking at isn't easy for new lawyers as there are hundreds of lawyers being pumped out by the University of Oregon and Lewis and Clark (Portland) who don't want to leave. The firms are small, the business economy is not particulary great. When I taught at U of O I saw a lot of graduates end up hanging out their shingle in solo practices in Eugene and elsewhere. That doesn't mean you shouldn't look for a job there - the riding and lifestyle opportunities are wonderful but there will be a lot of competition for any available job.

The combination you seek is out there but it will come at a price - primarily in dollars earned. Only you can figure out what will work for you. The saner job, smaller market model is much easier if your spouse/partner is working at a good paying job and with a daughter on the way that may not be feasible at least immediately. Me, I was in private practice in Seattle and made enough that when our son was born my wife quit work and stayed home - that was a luxury. But private practice was wearing and not in line with my true values and passion - working to protect the environment. A decade after my son was born I jumped to the non-profit world, moved from Seattle to Eugene, trading most of my salary for sanity and passion and happiness, but it wasn't an easy transition and the economics have impacted our lives more than I calculated. It has all worked out in a good way, and I would do the same thing again today (but my wife honestly may have a different view).

Best of luck!

[ORMojo]

Kirk beat me to making my main point - Eugene, and much of the Willamette Valley, is notorious for law school grads from the Oregon law schools wanting to stay and practice here. That hasn't changed in the more than 50 years I've lived in the valley. And while I have a couple of close friends who are attorneys, they all agree that they have accepted much lower pay for the lifestyle. And a few of them, in private practice, seem constantly concerned about maintaining a sufficient client base due to the competition here.

[Stevemikesteve]

Not a lawyer but wanted to chime in and hopefully add some helpful points. I'm a Marriage and family therapist. Bulk of my experience has been with non-profit agencies, not private practice. I can't relate to the legal employment landscape of Eugene but leading up to my own recent Eugene job search, I had heard that it would be difficult for an outsider to secure something in Eugene in my field due to competition from U of O MFT Master's grads (a very reputable program) vying for the same spots. In my case though, probably talking about a much smaller student body compared to Oregon law school. But still, I was told it would be an uphill battle. It turned out to be very fruitful. I landed a Lane County position, which was my top choice, and everything's rosy. Fiancee and I will be there in about a month and a half. She's a CPA and actually flew up to Eugene this morning for 3 different final round interviews over the next couple days (yes 3!). Point here is, and again the legal employment landscape could be completely different, we were quite apprehensive about the possible hurdles of a smaller job market once we set our sites on Eugene (moving from San Diego, I'm a U of O grad from about 20 years ago). As things got rolling though, it was quite surprising how many options we had. There is some salary drop off but not by much (again, this piece could be totally different for law jobs). Good luck!

[ORMojo]

I landed a Lane County position, which was my top choice, and everything's rosy. Fiancee and I will be there in about a month and a half. She's a CPA and actually flew up to Eugene this morning for 3 different final round interviews over the next couple days (yes 3!).

Welcome to Eugene! Beautiful day for your fiancée to be here, although it is supposed hit 100 degrees on Saturday (frankly, I'm ready and looking forward to it!).

One thing about our job market right now - it perhaps is one of the best times for job seekers in recent memory. Lane County's unemployment rate in May 2017 was the lowest ever recorded since 1990 when seasonally-adjusted unemployment rates started being issued. It is currently 3.8%, down from 5.1% just a year ago. Lots of other indicators in the Eugene metropolitan area are about as rosy as I've seen them in quite some time.

Of course, this has ancillary effects - the housing market is booming and very, very tight. The number of pending home sales in May set a 16-year-record, and the county’s inventory of homes for sale fell to a record low of 1.6 months. And in April the average sales price hit an all-time high.

Personally, a friend that just closed on a house 2 months ago ended up paying more than the asking price - which pretty much used to be unheard of around here, but is being seen more and more. Zillow tells me that the value of my house has increased 72% in just the past 4.5 years, and over 10% in just the past year.

If you, or any others moving here, are looking to buy a house, I would be happy to recommend my realtor. Actually, I couldn't recommend or praise him highly enough. I've done something like 8 transactions with him over the past 15 years, and have connected him with many friends, who unanimously praise him after their transaction. Absolutely nothing in it for me, and I know he doesn't need the work, but you won't find a better agent, or nicer person.

[MerckxMad]

There's some good advice here. It sounds like what you're looking for would best be found in house. The problem is that companies with large enough legal departments to give you support and an opportunity to grow typically do not hire out of law school. My advice is to develop a skill set that you can sell to a boutique firm that will pay you well or an in house department that will give you the lifestyle you seek. Unfortunately, there are few shortcuts.

[Stevemikesteve]

Welcome to Eugene!

Thanks! We're scrambling just to even RENT a place. To call it competitive is an understatement. But we've got a little over a month so that's a decent window and it should work out. But yes, for little old Eugene it is unbelievable. She and I are both very excited we pulled it off (and hopefully won't be living in a cardboard box!). I absolutely cannot wait to be riding up there again, been awhile....

[ofcounsel]

My advice is to develop a skill set that you can sell to a boutique firm that will pay you well or an in house department that will give you the lifestyle you seek. Unfortunately, there are few shortcuts.

This is also very good advice. And remember that oftentimes, the legal specialty one focuses on is one we often fall into.

For me, I "thought" I wanted to focus on labor and employment, until I got a taste of it as a 2nd year summer associate. During my 2nd year summer, I found I hated the actual practice of employment law, but I liked a couple of real estate assignments I received, so I focused on that out of law school.

Eventually, the real estate work I did as a 1st and 2nd year lawyer got me involved in land use entitlements and zoning issues. That in turn lead me to focus my understanding of the California Environmental Quality Act (the law requires state and local agencies to consider the potential environmental impacts of projects before the projects get approved). That, in turn, lead me to focus me on other environmental laws, including species protection, water quality and coastal protection. Now, I've pretty much left the real property stuff all together to other lawyers, while I focus on environmental law in the context of large scale infrastructure construction projects and maintenance of existing infrastructure (in the regulatory/transactional context... no litigation for me). I've also taught as an adjunct law school professor in my spare time.

I guess I tell you this in case you are freaked out about not knowing for sure what "area" you'll practice in. Sometimes, the opportunities you make for yourself can sometimes kind of lead you to the area you'll practice in. So don't worry too much if you don't have one yet. But be intentional in moving towards things if you have an interest, and moving away from them if you don't.

By the way... I work in Downtown LA and live in Orange County. Not quite as bucolic as the Northern Cal/Oregon coastline, but there is plenty of great riding here and significantly more legal jobs.

[54ny77]

I work alot with attorneys (who work at, as it's referred to in this thread, "big law") and I've never once heard that kind of general question among first years. There's usually an expectation of professional ambition, sucking it up, working your ass off and hoping to learn something useful and understand what the heck it is you're hired to do. And that's either as having been fortunate to have most of your tuition paid for by parents, or hustling with every spare ounce of energy while having 6 figures of student loan debt hanging over the head. And oh what's that thing you called riding? Yeah, try fitting in a training program when billing 2.5k+ hours a year.

I'm grumpy though, for whatever that's worth, and as a client I expect our attorney to be in his/her office when I call at 11 pm on a Saturday when necessity demands it. Because if I'm calling at that stupid hour it means I'm sitting in office too. And the last thing I want to be doing is wasting my time teaching a first year who knows nothing, all while billing out at $500/hr., how to deal with whatever it is that has to be dealt with. Which of course means that a 4th or 5th year is in the office as well providing oversight and the evening billable rate is pushing 5 figures....

Sorry for the crotchety perspective. Hopefully you can carve your niche and achieve a great work-life balance. Good luck! :beer:

[ofcounsel]

.

I'm grumpy though, for whatever that's worth, and as a client I expect our attorney to be in his/her office when I at 11 pm on a Saturday when necessity demands it. Because if I'm calling at that stupid hour it means I'm sitting in office too. And the last thing I want to be doing is wasting my time teaching a first year who knows nothing, all while billing out at $500/hr., how to deal with whatever it is that has to be dealt with. Which of course means that a 4th or 5th year is in the office as well providing oversight and the evening billable rate is pushing 5 figures....

Sorry for the crotchety perspective. Hopefully you can carve your niche and achieve a great work-life balance. Good luck! :beer:

Funny thing is, I don't see that as grumpy. I think if one is a good, client-focused attorney, we have to acknowledge that we're in the "customer service" business. If my clients (as an in-house attorney, folks on the business side of our company are my "clients") are in the trenches working weekends, I expect no less than to be there with them. As an in-house lawyer, this happens much less often than it did at the law firm, but it still happens (and I often know it will well in advance, so I can plan for it). And likewise, if I'm working weekends, my $$$ Big Law lawyers I hire to help me are as well.

And yeah, it's hard to find a law job with "work/life" balance right out of school. Most of us bust our butts for the first few years before we find a job that allows for balance (while providing a salary commensurate with your expectations). And in retrospect, I learned a ton about being a good lawyer in those first few years at Big Law.

[54ny77]

Oh I could go on & on with this topic, as I've lived in the trenches for years. Yes, agree fully with what you said.

Those first few years at big law are so key. Even if you come out of it badly bruised and still largely stupid, with that credential at least you got a better shot at trying again elsewhere.

If anything, you learn what you hate. That's an education unto itself.

Funny thing is, I don't see that as grumpy. I think if one is a good, client-focused attorney, we have to acknowledge that we're in the "customer service" business. If my clients (as an in-house attorney, folks on the business side of our company are my "clients") are in the trenches working weekends, I expect no less than to be there with them. As an in-house lawyer, this happens much less often than it did at the law firm, but it still happens (and I often know it will well in advance, so I can plan for it). And likewise, if I'm working weekends, my $$$ Big Law lawyers I hire to help me are as well.

And yeah, it's hard to find a law job with "work/life" balance right out of school. Most of us bust our butts for the first few years before we find a job that allows for balance (while providing a salary commensurate with your expectations). And in retrospect, I learned a ton about being a good lawyer in those first few years at Big Law.

[weaponsgrade]

My suggestion is to try and find work in govt. Perhaps something with the city atty office, fed. govt, etc. Going in-house straight from law school is difficult. Most companies aren't big enough to have a team of in-house attys and training programs for new grads. So, there are a lot fewer openings than at law firms. Going big law will give you the most options. Companies like to recruit from big law. But, yeah, big law isn't a very humane place to work.

[paredown]

Oh I could go on & on with this topic, as I've lived in the trenches for years. Yes, agree fully with what you said.

Those first few years at big law are so key. Even if you come out of it badly bruised and still largely stupid, with that credential at least you got a better shot at trying again elsewhere.

If anything, you learn what you hate. That's an education unto itself.
Also not a lawyer, but from what my friends who are have said (and the same's true for public accounting) is along with getting beat up and bruised, you do do get a good second education in professionalism, all the procedural stuff--in a way how to "be" a high functioning lawyer. My BIL left after his articling years as a public accountant (requirement in Canada)--and claims he is still using the forms, spreadsheets and the rest that his firm used in his private practice and although he got treated like dirt, he is glad that he did it.

[alembical]

I am an attorney in Portland and have been here since graduating law school at Lewis and Clark in 2001. Market was real tight then and improved and then has gotten restricted again. The starting at a larger law firm thing is quite common, but the expectations are high and the jobs are tough to get. I am in a small practice where I actually started as a Legal assistant while waiting for the bar results.

Any specific questions, let me know, but I am not real up on all the latest news and pressures facing new attorneys.

[peanutgallery]

Q: What do you call a smiling, courteous person at a bar association convention?
A: The caterer.

Q: What's the difference between a female lawyer and a pitbull?
A: Lipstick.

Q: What do you call a lawyer with an IQ of 100?
A: Your Honor.
Q: What do you call a lawyer with an IQ of 50
A: Senator.

Q: What's the difference between an accountant and a lawyer?
A: Accountants know they're boring.

Q: What's the one thing that never works when it's fixed?
A: A jury.

Q: Why did God invent lawyers?
A: So that real estate agents would have someone to look down on.

Q: What's the difference between a vacuum cleaner and a lawyer on a motorcycle?
A: The vacuum cleaner has the dirt bag on the inside.

Q: What' the difference between a lawyer and a boxing referee?
A: A boxing referee doesn't get paid more for a longer fight.

Q: What's the difference between a good lawyer and a bad lawyer?
A: A bad lawyer makes your case drag on for years. A good lawyer makes it last even longer.

Q: What's the difference between a jellyfish and a lawyer?
A: One's a spineless, poisonous blob. The other is a form of sea life.

Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a trampoline?
A: You take off your shoes before you jump on a trampoline.

Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a leech?
A: After you die, a leech stops sucking your blood.
Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and God?
A: God doesn't think he's a lawyer.

Q: How are an apple and a lawyer alike?
A: They both look good hanging from a tree.
Q: How can a pregnant woman tell that she's carrying a future lawyer?
A: She has an uncontrollable craving for bologna.
Q: How does an attorney sleep?
A: First he lies on one side, then he lies on the other.
Q: How many lawyer jokes are there?
A: Only three. The rest are true stories.
Q: How many lawyers does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: Three, One to climb the ladder. One to shake it. And one to sue the ladder company.
Q: What are lawyers good for?
A: They make used car salesmen look good.
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A: They're both extinct.
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A: Not enough cement.
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A: Skeet.
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A: Senator.
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A: His partners.
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A: Taller
Q: What's brown and looks really good on a lawyer?
A: A Doberman.
Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a liar?
A: The pronunciation.
Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a prostitute?
A: A prostitute will stop screwing you when you're dead.
Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a vulture?
A: The lawyer gets frequent flyer miles.
Q: What's the difference between a mosquito and a lawyer?
A: One is a blood-sucking parasite, the other is an insect.
Q: Why did God make snakes just before lawyers?
A: To practice.
Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a herd of buffalo?
A: The lawyer charges more.
Q: What's the difference between a tick and a lawyer?
A: The tick falls off when you are dead.
Q: What do you get when you cross a blonde and a lawyer?
A: I don't know. There are some things even a blonde won't do.
Q: Know how copper wire was invented?
A: Two lawyers were fighting over a penny.
Q: Why does the law society prohibit sex between lawyers and their clients?
A: To prevent clients from being billed twice for essentially the same service.
Q: What can a goose do, a duck can't, and a lawyer should?
A: Stick his bill up his ass.
Q: How can you tell when a lawyer is lying?
A: Their lips are moving.
Q: Why did New Jersey get all the toxic waste and California all the lawyers?
A: New Jersey got to pick first.
Q: Why don't lawyers go to the beach?
A: Cats keep trying to bury them.
Q: What do you call 5000 dead lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
A: A good start!
Q: What's the difference between a dead skunk in the road and a dead lawyer in the road?
A: There are skid marks in front of the skunk.
Q: Why won't sharks attack lawyers?
A: Professional courtesy.
Q: What do have when a lawyer is buried up to his neck in sand?
A: Not enough sand.
Q: How do you get a lawyer out of a tree?
A: Cut the rope.
Q: Do you know how to save a drowning lawyer?
A: Take your foot off his head.
Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a bucket of manure?
A: The bucket.
Q: What is the definition of a shame (as in "that's a shame")?
A: When a busload of lawyers goes off a cliff.

Q: What is the definition of a "crying shame"?
A: There was an empty seat.
Q: What do you get when you cross the Godfather with a lawyer?
A: An offer you can't understand
Q: Why is it that many lawyers have broken noses?
A: From chasing parked ambulances.
Q: Where can you find a good lawyer?
A: In the cemetery
Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a gigolo?
A: A gigolo only screws one person at a time.
Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and a vampire?
A: A vampire only sucks blood at night.
Q: Why to lawyers wear neckties?
A: To keep the foreskin from crawling up their chins.
Q: What is the difference between a lawyer and a rooster?
A: When a rooster wakes up in the morning, its primal urge is to cluck defiance.
Q: How many law professors does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Hell, you need 250 just to lobby for the research grant.
Q: If you see a lawyer on a bicycle, why don't you swerve to hit him?
A: It might be your bicycle.
Q: What do you call a smiling, sober, courteous person at a bar association convention?
A: The caterer.
Q: Why do they bury lawyers under 20 feet of dirt?
A: Because deep down, they're really good people.
Q: Why are lawyers like nuclear weapons?
A: If one side has one, the other side has to get one. Once launched, they cannot be recalled. When they land, they screw up everything forever.
Q: What do lawyers and sperm have in common?
A: One in 3,000,000 has a chance of becoming a human being.

[doomridesout]

Thank you all for the responses. I definitely hear you about the value of starting with a big law job as a sort of "work-hardening" process, but I'm not interested in it for a panoply of reasons. If that makes me somehow a bad worker or a second-string attorney, so be it. I do realize that signaling an interest in work-life balance too clearly in interviews is a red flag for employers as shorthand for "doesn't wanna work", so I'm hoping to pre-screen these kinds of things and guide myself to the right outcomes.

I'd strongly prefer a transactional and advice practice. I have experience with Prop 64, so a cannabis practice is sort of a no-brainer, but I'm also getting better versed in estate planning and taxIn-house would be great but I have no illusions about getting those kinds of jobs straight from school and don't think it's worth spending my time pursuing them. I'm working in state government right now and it seems like it offers what I need: a stable schedule, full benefits, and pay suitable for raising a family. The difficult thing is that I'm not sure I'd want to stay in Sacramento. Does anyone know anything about the quality of life in Salem? As for government work, clearly the centers of state government are the capitols, but are there outlying places where government lawyers are necessary that I'm not thinking of?

[ORMojo]

I'm almost hesitant to say this, but "quality of life in Salem" is pretty much an oxymoron. Or, put another way, the long-standing cliché (but then, clichés are usually built on truth) in Oregon is that no one wants to live in Salem.

BTW, this thread perfectly encompasses why I dropped out of law school - the work/life considerations, not the jokes. My step-dad (more my father) was an MD, holding down both a general practice and a surgical practice (Chief of Surgery at one of Portland’s largest hospitals). I grew up thinking - certain - I wanted to be a doctor, until I understood his lack of freedom, lack of a life outside of being on call. I can't tell you how many times in my life I've been told I should be (should have been) a lawyer (for reasons both positive and negative), to this day. So I pursued that, until I realized that law would also suck the life out of my life.

At age 31, I followed my biological father's example - I put life before work. And I've never looked back. My father left the presidency of Reed College (after military service and a multinational corporate career) at age 40, and never again worked for anyone other than himself. That (eventual) lesson was the 2nd best thing he ever did for me (1st was moving the family from LA to Oregon in 1965).

[ofcounsel]

Thank you all for the responses. I definitely hear you about the value of starting with a big law job as a sort of "work-hardening" process, but I'm not interested in it for a panoply of reasons. If that makes me somehow a bad worker or a second-string attorney, so be it. I do realize that signaling an interest in work-life balance too clearly in interviews is a red flag for employers as shorthand for "doesn't wanna work", so I'm hoping to pre-screen these kinds of things and guide myself to the right outcomes.


I don't think it makes you a bad worker or will otherwise make you a second-string attorney. You make your career and it's all ahead for you. And you have a an understanding of the life you want to lead right out the gate. That's a good start.

I truly wish you the best of luck in finding something that works for you.

[fuzzalow]

It is perhaps a reasonable thing to think you know what you want prior to getting into a career but I think that not enough of how things take shape is up to you - luck, timing take a bigger role than you want to account for. So the more specific you are about what you think you want the more limiting of yourself you will be. In early chaos can you see a path towards navigating incremental steps?

I do not agree with a need, desire or demand for a balance skewed towards personal life when you are starting out and young - IMO there is no personal life, or very little of it, as a matter of practice and priority, when you are starting out. I look at it more as an attitude and drive to do whatever it takes to make the most of whatever opportunities available to achieve the career trajectory needed - lotta thrust required and danger in the boost phase after launch but if not done right you can die or never achieve escape velocity for orbit.

I dunno, I either don't get it 'cos I'm outta touch or I'm just too old school. Work isn't life but at times it is. Excellence always extracts a price. The best you can hope for is to be skillful enough that you can have latitude in the choices you will be given or allowed to make - said in terms as both a reality of career mechanics and as a metaphor of life.

Good luck in finding your way.

[Clean39T]

Re: in-house legal - have you considered the energy industry? Portland is a hub with two good investor owned utilities, a federal behemoth, and many small companies connected in some way to the industry. EWEB in Eugene is a really good company too. Once you gained some experience, you'd have the ability to go work for any number of small or large PUDs in rural OR/WA. PM if you'd like to chat by phone...

[doomridesout]

I totally get that to ask for all these parameters to be filled right out of school is asking a lot. It might be more constraints than can be put on a career immediately out of the gate if I really want to be thriving in ten years. A big part of what I'm asking is about how to define future goals. If I make the big sacrifices with my time, lifestyle, and where I live now, what's the long term plan to make it to the lifestyle I want? If there are feasible ways to get farther down that path now, what are they? If I make sacrifices early in my career as part of a bargain with my future self, how do I need to define that bargain?

I want a family and a life, period. I need to know what career options are coextensive with that.

Particular thanks to those who answered about Portland, Eugene, and Salem... I'm really looking for area specific information more than anything.

[HenryA]

Go find any law job in a mid-size city in the area you want to live in that pays enough to live on.

"I want a family and a life, period "

Along with that goes money and to get money is work. Anything in the reasonably correct direction will get you started. Get some real world experience. After that, keep your head up and keep watching and looking for your next step.

For now, just start. Go!

[54ny77]

Davis is a good law school, it should have a decent alumni networking association and career counseling program. Have you sought that out? Might be helpful to get the perspective of recent grads and their experiences, and compare notes.

[CNY rider]

I totally get that to ask for all these parameters to be filled right out of school is asking a lot. It might be more constraints than can be put on a career immediately out of the gate if I really want to be thriving in ten years. A big part of what I'm asking is about how to define future goals. If I make the big sacrifices with my time, lifestyle, and where I live now, what's the long term plan to make it to the lifestyle I want? If there are feasible ways to get farther down that path now, what are they? If I make sacrifices early in my career as part of a bargain with my future self, how do I need to define that bargain?

I want a family and a life, period. I need to know what career options are coextensive with that.

Particular thanks to those who answered about Portland, Eugene, and Salem... I'm really looking for area specific information more than anything.

I'm not a lawyer but I did suffer through medical internship and residency as well as a specialty fellowship.
Internship was the hardest year of my life, by far. I worked crazy hours, I was exhausted. No way in hell could I go back and do it again now.
While I was doing it, I would surely have taken the opportunity to walk away if some easier path became available.
But I will tell you that it was an incredibly important and formative year, and I realize now that i [I]needed[I] to do it.
I offer this as one man's experience not as advice, but as something to contemplate.

[doomridesout]

I hear ya... it's important to get "jumped in" and I think I need it. I'm trying to make sure I'm starting on the right path...

[Uncle Jam's Army]

I live in Southern California. It feels like I've done everything imaginable. My first 10 years were at the biggest of "BIGLAW." My second 10 years were spent in a combination of medium-sized firms and solo practice. Now, I toil away doing a variety of things in law (insurance defense, immigration, transactional, intellectual property, and "door law"; i.e., whatever case walks in the door). I've managed to eek out enough money to make ends meet and enjoy this sport of ours, and that is with a ton of volunteer work the last few years. So I guess what I would tell you is there are many ways to get where you want.

As to the suggestion regarding marijuana law, the amount of money being made there is absolutely unbelievable. I connected with an unlicensed pot dispensary in our city who agreed to finance a mayoral recall effort I am involved in and I learned they bring in about $15,000 a day, all cash. Now, as you might expect, a dispensary operating without a business license in an all-cash business probably would have a legal issue or two, and you would be right. It's absolutely mad money, and politicians who once were against dispensaries are now beating each other with a stick to be the first to get to that money.