pros vs. cons of Di2

[ivanooze]

so im on the verge of buying a di2 groupset but would like to see if there's any feedback all you ladies and gents might have about this GS.

-I've had the opportunity to work on Di2 and ride it temporarily so here are my own list of pros and cons.

PRO:
-easy to work on
-you can add sprinter or climbing shifters
-crisp shifting
-long battery life
-waterproof
-lots of pros use it

CONS:
-highly sensitive to small bends in derailleur hangar
- possible accidental shifting while using sprint shifters?
-pricey

is there anything else im missing?

[livingminimal]

I mean, I love it.
I don't use sprint shifters though. The rest is sorta negligible to me. It doesn't cost THAT much more when you consider the long-term benefits. Perfect shifting is, well, perfect.

[livingminimal]

Also not sure I care if Pros use it or not. In fact, Contador, Nibali, and Fabian were still on mechanical as recently as last year. Bertie is on di2 now, Fabian rides an e-bike in retirement, and I don't know what Nibali is on about.

[bicycletricycle]

vs. other electronic shifting or vs. mechanical?

if vs. mechanical than

pro-
faster shifting
extra shift positions
new programmable shift modes that auto shift front (whats that called?)

con-
heavy
you have to charge your bicycle (remember to do one more thing)
expensive
inability to repair/macgyver a solution on the road
lack of parts for repair in the near future

[Cicli]

I dont like it. Rode a rental twice for two weeks and about 1000 miles. decided it was not for me.

[bicycletricycle]

I dont like it. Rode a rental twice for two weeks and about 1000 miles. decided it was not for me.

so the con list is clear for you, you don't like it :)

[sales guy]

I've tried it. I like it. I still like mechanical too. Neither one better or worse. There are advantages to both.

I have bikes built for customers with both. It just depends on the person I think.

[beeatnik]

Calnago on Weight Weenies re: electronic

It's detached. It's not very tactile (although ironically they keep trying to get it to "feel" more like mechanical). When it's dead, it's dead, and a lot of head scratching ensues. You have to charge it, or carry a pocketful of batteries in the case of eTap. You can program it this way and that way, but my mechanical systems don't need programming, or a laptop, or firmware updates, and I can shift them faster, and ALL the shifting options are always at the ready. And there's not much that I can't fix if something does go wrong. With the new 9150, it comes configured so that you can't access the two smallest cogs if using something other than a standard 39/53 chainring setup. Then it's got Synchro**** 1 and Synchro**** 2, both just limiting what I can do if no Synchro**** was involved at all.

I'm just not really interested enough or see the benefit to me to actually get one personally. And in fact, I am price insensitive if you haven't figured that out already... I'm going to get what I want to get based on my own reasons, and even if the electric systems cost less than the mechanical, I would still get the mechanical. With the one exception being a TT bike or a bike which has such a convoluted cable routing system that mechanical shifting would be compromised because of it. One thing's for sure, if all my bikes were electric, I'd need a whole lot more outlets in my garage, or if wireless charging becomes a thing... a garage floor that doubles as a "charging mat". Ugh... I left the software industry and love the simplicity of the bicycle these days. I don't want to get a warning that my bicycle now needs to be updated before I can ride today, or something to that effect.



http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=145760&sid=a9e7d9208bb166e8a43d98f4b53d53d3&start=15#p1323387

My SOC thoughts:
DI2 sounds cool and you can shift under crazy load. Shimano 11s mechanical is faster but feels more vague (ironically) as the chain moving along the cassette isn't as perceptible (DI2 seems to have a nice violent clunk).

Short story long, 9100 is perfection; if you mis-shift more than once every 1000 shifts you need a new wrench.

[SoCalSteve]

eTap, you'll never go back...:banana:...seriously.

[SoCalSteve]

Calnago on Weight Weenies re: electronic

It's detached. It's not very tactile (although ironically they keep trying to get it to "feel" more like mechanical). When it's dead, it's dead, and a lot of head scratching ensues. You have to charge it, or carry a pocketful of batteries in the case of eTap. You can program it this way and that way, but my mechanical systems don't need programming, or a laptop, or firmware updates, and I can shift them faster, and ALL the shifting options are always at the ready. And there's not much that I can't fix if something does go wrong. With the new 9150, it comes configured so that you can't access the two smallest cogs if using something other than a standard 39/53 chainring setup. Then it's got Synchro**** 1 and Synchro**** 2, both just limiting what I can do if no Synchro**** was involved at all.

I'm just not really interested enough or see the benefit to me to actually get one personally. And in fact, I am price insensitive if you haven't figured that out already... I'm going to get what I want to get based on my own reasons, and even if the electric systems cost less than the mechanical, I would still get the mechanical. With the one exception being a TT bike or a bike which has such a convoluted cable routing system that mechanical shifting would be compromised because of it. One thing's for sure, if all my bikes were electric, I'd need a whole lot more outlets in my garage, or if wireless charging becomes a thing... a garage floor that doubles as a "charging mat". Ugh... I left the software industry and love the simplicity of the bicycle these days. I don't want to get a warning that my bicycle now needs to be updated before I can ride today, or something to that effect.



http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=145760&sid=a9e7d9208bb166e8a43d98f4b53d53d3&start=15#p1323387

My SOC thoughts:
DI2 sounds cool and you can shift under crazy load. Mechanical is faster but feels more vague. 9100 is perfection; if you mis-shift more than once every 1000 shifts you need a new wrench.

That's really funny. If at all, one battery. Smaller and lighter than a protein bar.

[beeatnik]

eTap, you'll never go back...:banana:...seriously.

A pal's etap has been at the shop 3x. It's noisy and rubs and drops chains on both the cassette and now the big ring. Today, he threw his chain on the outside 4x in 2 hours. In fact, the FD cage is now rubbing the crank arm and the beautiful cranks have been marred. Oh, his LBS sells more 10K plus bikes than any other shop in the state, Above Category included. So, maybe it's too simple and perfect for the professional wrenches. Saboteurs!

[SoCalSteve]

Pal's etap has been at the shop 3x. It's noisy and rubs and drops chains on both the cassette and now the big ring. Today, he threw his chain on the outside 4x in 2 hours. In fact, the FD cage is now rubbing the crank arm and the beautiful cranks have been marred. Oh, his LBS sells more 10K plus bikes than any other shop in the state, Above Category included. So, maybe it's too simple and perfect for the professional wrenches. Saboteurs!

I've built 5 bikes with it, nary an issue. Maybe I need to come out of retirement and work as a wrench at a bike store...

And yes, the front derailleur can be a bit finicky to set up originally, but once it's dialed in, it's perfect.

[Bob Ross]

pro-
faster shifting

Is it really?

Mind you, this is mostly an observation of how other people ride/shift with Di2; I don't have electronic shifting on any of my bikes (yet!), so I've only ever ridden my wife's bike around the block a few times...but it sure looks & sounds to me like the shifting is slower. Not remarkably slower, and probably not even critically slower, but it just seems...less immediate. Or less impacted by whatever is going on upstream of the lever (i.e., in your finger, your hand, your arm, your brain...)


It's detached. It's not very tactile

Maybe that's what I'm seeing/hearing? I was talking to a friend who recently got eTap, and his complaint (!?!) was that he felt disconnected from the process; unlike mechanical shifting, his electronic system didn't seem to care how he touched the lever, only that he touched the lever.

Mind you, I don't necessarily view that as a bad thing, but clearly some riders do.

[brewsmith]

expensive
inability to repair/macgyver a solution on the road
lack of parts for repair in the near future

These two are my main hang ups to moving towards e-groups generally, and remind me of the two main detractors or carbon fiber. In risk of being retrogrouchy, the $ and risk of catastrophic failure are holding me back from these groups and carbon handlebars.....

[Lanternrouge]

I have both and prefer electronic since it just feels better to me. That said, I like cable shifting too.

Check out James Huang's recent article about how he prefers cables while acknowledging electronic is superior in certain ways: https://cyclingtips.com/2017/06/jra-with-the-angry-asian-for-the-love-of-cables/

You will enjoy riding your bike regardless of electronic or cable shifting.

[moobikes]

I can't imagine having to use a laptop to interact with my bicycle. Just not my cup of tea.

[cachagua]

con-
heavy
you have to charge your bicycle (remember to do one more thing)
expensive
inability to repair/macgyver a solution on the road
lack of parts for repair in the near future

Thank you. The broader trend, of which electric shifting is a part, tends to take repairs or modifications, or any use that deviates from the very specific intention/design of the manufacturer, out of the hands of the user.

Bicycles have traditionally been something almost anybody could dink around with, fairly productively and fairly safely. They've been a place where you could exercise your imagination, and express your sense of just how the machine ought to operate. You get to problem-solve, test your hypotheses, modify and fabricate parts, and you get to enjoy your success when you make something work, that didn't before. When Sheldon Brown says he likes the feeling of freedom a bike gives him, that's a piece of what he's talking about. I believe it's healthy, indeed crucially important for society, that that kind of self-reliance be fostered and developed in people.

Is "perfect shifting" nice? Perhaps so, but I don't think it's worth trading away mastery of one's bike for slavery to an unreachable, untouchable corporation. And remember, that perfect shifting is only gonna be perfect for six months or so until the new version is introduced... and there will be nothing you can do, because really, when you buy it, they still own it. You can't do a thing with it they don't give you permission to do.

There is no better a bike could work, no quote-performance-advantage-unquote that would make me feel okay about putting myself in that position, when I have the choice.

[SoCalSteve]

I can't imagine having to use a laptop to interact with my bicycle. Just not my cup of tea.

With eTap, no laptop is required. It's perfect right out of the box. Not sure why they shipped a computer dongle with each group. It's not needed.

[beeatnik]

with etap, no laptop is required. It's perfect right out of the box. Not sure why they shipped a computer dongle with each group. It's not needed.



and yes, the front derailleur can be a bit finicky to set up originally, but once it's dialed in, it's perfect.
:confused:

[jumphigher]

Thank you. The broader trend, of which electric shifting is a part, tends to take repairs or modifications, or any use that deviates from the very specific intention/design of the manufacturer, out of the hands of the user.

Bicycles have traditionally been something almost anybody could dink around with, fairly productively and fairly safely. They've been a place where you could exercise your imagination, and express your sense of just how the machine ought to operate. You get to problem-solve, test your hypotheses, modify and fabricate parts, and you get to enjoy your success when you make something work, that didn't before. When Sheldon Brown says he likes the feeling of freedom a bike gives him, that's a piece of what he's talking about. I believe it's healthy, indeed crucially important for society, that that kind of self-reliance be fostered and developed in people.

Is "perfect shifting" nice? Perhaps so, but I don't think it's worth trading away mastery of one's bike for slavery to an unreachable, untouchable corporation. And remember, that perfect shifting is only gonna be perfect for six months or so until the new version is introduced... and there will be nothing you can do, because really, when you buy it, they still own it. You can't do a thing with it they don't give you permission to do.

There is no better a bike could work, no quote-performance-advantage-unquote that would make me feel okay about putting myself in that position, when I have the choice.

Really well said, and my opinion as well.

I would add to it that just like car manufacturers trying to make cars impossible to work on for shade tree mechanics, I believe bicycle manufacturers are trying to do the same thing with bikes. The beauty of the bicycle to me has always been it's simplicity and elegant function, so even as an ex-shop mechanic, I find Di2 really off-putting. Is mechanical shifting really that hard? Apparently for some it is..

[bewheels]

I have about 9,000 miles on Di2.
It is fantastic.

This has includes very rough non-paved surfaces, rain, snow, heat, ice, etc, etc
It is fantastic.
Zero issues.

Pros:
Set it and forget it.
Setting it takes about 3 minutes. Then never touch it again.
Charge it ~2 times a year.
Perfect shifting every time.

Cons:
None - I can try making up some to fit in...

[FlashUNC]

The solution clearly is EPS.

[GonaSovereign]

di2 is good suff. It works really, really well, and will work in mucky garbage conditions when mechanical is bogging down. Tactile? When I want to shift, it shifts. Done.

Con: When something goes wonky, it can be hard to diagnose at even the best shops. Shimano's got a fancy diagnostic tool unavailable to the rest of us.

I'm happy. I like mechanical almost as much though.

Incidentally, a quite bent rear derailleur shifts 95% as well as a new one. I know of what I speak.

[bicycletricycle]

eTap, you'll never go back...:banana:...seriously.

Friction simplex down tube shifters with 11 speed cassettes.

You'll never go back, seriously.

[livingminimal]

I wanna hear more from the guy that will relentlessly remind us how he's got etap on five (5) bikes.

But I'd have to unignore him.

[kppolich]

Pro: short/no shifter throw, which is nice for people with small hands, especially the ladies.

Con: not sexy to mount without the proper internal routing/requires di2 specific frames ($) which can hold back resale value if thats something you care about.

[SoCalSteve]

I wanna hear more from the guy that will relentlessly remind us how he's got etap on five (5) bikes.

But I'd have to unignore him.

Actually 4 bikes. I pulled one group off the Kirk and put it on the Speedvagen. Kirk will be single speed.

re·lent·less·ly:

in an unceasingly intense or harsh way.

How would you know if you have my on ignore?

[ergott]

A pal's etap has been at the shop 3x. It's noisy and rubs and drops chains on both the cassette and now the big ring. Today, he threw his chain on the outside 4x in 2 hours. In fact, the FD cage is now rubbing the crank arm and the beautiful cranks have been marred. Oh, his LBS sells more 10K plus bikes than any other shop in the state, Above Category included. So, maybe it's too simple and perfect for the professional wrenches. Saboteurs!



I don't care what how many expensive bikes that shop sells. If they have that much trouble with eTap the mechanics suck or they are trying to use cranks that aren't compatible (or both). Working at a bike shop doesn't make a mechanic a "pro wrench".

Setting up eTap isn't rocket science and you don't need a laptop (someone else mentioned). It's easier than any cable system and can be adjusted on the fly (don't even have to pull over to micro adjust the rear).

If making sure the hanger is aligned is a negative to installation (also mentioned above somewhere) then again, I blame poor mechanics. It takes a minute or two to get a hanger straight.

As far as the origional question, I love electric, but won't replace the Super Record mechanical I have with electric. It's awesome. More tactile feel, faster shifting than the Di2 or eTap I have. It's a thing of beauty.


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[giordana93]

I still run DA 7400 on my #2 bike, and chorus 10v on my main ride, so you could call me a semi-Luddite. BUT, as good as the new mechanical stuff is, Di2 is the bomb, and the newest version, now out on DA level and already announced for Ultegra, promises more tactile feedback (the lack of which I did not care for on previous versions), and although you could argue the speed of shifting in the rear was pretty close between mech and electronic, in the front there is no comparison--it is lightning fast and shifts under conditions that old mechanical simply would not. by the time your fingers have made the full swing on the front upshift with mechanical, the di2 will have already made the shift a second ago. it is really ridiculously fast and reliable (and trims by itself)

as for maintenance woes, um, the biggest hassle on mechanical--cable drag, fouling and failure--simply does not exist. does anybody really miss naturally aspirated carburetors and points/distributor caps over fuel injection and electronic ignition? no. I'm not saying mechanical is dead, but di2 is really good, and if it was costing pros races they wouldn't be using it. shimano test the crap out of the stuff.

so with that said, here's another pro-- the ability to customize the shifting in the synchro modes. I know those of us who have mastered shifting feel no need to have computers take over that role, but the sychro shifting à la E-tap, along with the seamless shifting now available in the front, really is kinda mind-blowing, especially in rolling terrain that requires a bunch of double shifts

here's another: integration with Garmin; you can scroll through the computer without your hands leaving the hoods... or turn on a light, or see which gear you are in. a little gee-whiz and totally unnecessary, but hey, you can't do it on mechanical.

I'm not trading in my bulletproof 8 speed sti just yet, but when I do, it is going to be hard not to go di2 if funds allow

[Jere]

Pro: short/no shifter throw, which is nice for people with small hands, especially the ladies.

Con: not sexy to mount without the proper internal routing/requires di2 specific frames ($) which can hold back resale value if thats something you care about.


Do not forget people with arthritis in there hands it's been the best thing to come out or maybe Drugs.
I really notice Di2 when your racing and start getting tired and stupid with my shifting no missed shifts.

[beeatnik]

I don't care what how many expensive bikes that shop sells. If they have that much trouble with eTap the mechanics suck or they are trying to use cranks that aren't compatible (or both). Working at a bike shop doesn't make a mechanic a "pro wrench".

Setting up eTap isn't rocket science and you don't need a laptop (someone else mentioned). It's easier than any cable system and can be adjusted on the fly (don't even have to pull over to micro adjust the rear).

If making sure the hanger is aligned is a negative to installation (also mentioned above somewhere) then again, I blame poor mechanics. It takes a minute or two to get a hanger straight.

As far as the origional question, I love electric, but won't replace the Super Record mechanical I have with electric. It's awesome. More tactile feel, faster shifting than the Di2 or eTap I have. It's a thing of beauty.


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Eric, setting up these systems (mechanical and electronic) may not be quantum mechanics but what I've observed in thousands of hours of group riding is that while it may be easy to install a group, keeping it adjusted and performing flawlessly is another mater. Once the stuff gets wacky it's either a 5 min fix or a 5 day ordeal. When I posted about issues with Campy Revolution, the Paceline knee-jerk response was "Campy is easy if you read the instructions." The fact that my wrench has 40 years of experience was discounted. Turns out the stuff had manufacturing issues. So, that's when stuff gets complicated. When it doesn't work. And whether the wrenches are Pro Tour professionals or $12/hour students, they won't have the time or resources to troubleshoot one of the thousands of parts they handle daily. Anyway, what are the odds that eTap may have design flaws. I mean it could never happen to the SRAMz.

[saab2000]

The times I've tried Di2 I've been very ambivalent. I much prefer the tactile sensations on a mechanical setup. I also like that it requires no charging and is generally highly reliable. I've seen numerous rides ruined by failed Di2 stuff, though admittedly these were all 10-speed Ultegra, so early and not the most premium.

I haven't seen failures on the 2nd generation Di2.

I used to not be open minded on Shimano. I now am open minded and like it.

It would be fantastic to try a week on eTap and a week on Di2 and a week on EPS to try to draw some conclusions.

I'm open minded on Di2 but don't see the need on my road bikes. I'd be curious on a gravel bike though since 785 levers were so freaking nice.

[fogrider]

I have 9000 on my Serotta Legend Ti, I really like it. The one annoying thing is the long arm on the front mech. The thing I hate with cables is the stretch. and I like the feel of mechanical shifting.

I also have Di2 and the shifting is pretty much perfect. Fast and spot on. And it can be hard to shift with thick gloves on.

at the end of the day, my main bike is still on Campy Record. it's all good, ride what you want.

[biker72]

I test rode a Specialized Roubaix earlier this year with Di2.
The guys that work on this stuff claim it's rock solid reliable. Set it up and you're good to go.

I had problems shifting with gloves.
Do I need it??? Probably not.
I would consider it once the price drops.

[oldpotatoe]

I don't care what how many expensive bikes that shop sells. If they have that much trouble with eTap the mechanics suck or they are trying to use cranks that aren't compatible (or both). Working at a bike shop doesn't make a mechanic a "pro wrench".

Setting up eTap isn't rocket science and you don't need a laptop (someone else mentioned). It's easier than any cable system and can be adjusted on the fly (don't even have to pull over to micro adjust the rear).

If making sure the hanger is aligned is a negative to installation (also mentioned above somewhere) then again, I blame poor mechanics. It takes a minute or two to get a hanger straight.

As far as the origional question, I love electric, but won't replace the Super Record mechanical I have with electric. It's awesome. More tactile feel, faster shifting than the Di2 or eTap I have. It's a thing of beauty.


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Agree on all points.

Ease of set-up/adjust is a pro for all 3 electronic groups. Once set, unless you crash and bend something, it works the same everyday.

I really didn't like the teeny, somewhat hard to find, shift buttons on Di2. I don't like the shift 'protocol' of etap(among other things..easy steve, don't get spooled up)..I don't like it, like my opinion..'kay?

I have EPS via barends on my Merckx..for fit issues, the length of ERGO levers. Like it, it works everyday, charged battery 4 times since early 2014. Ride it a lot.

A con is if something stops working, unlike say an ERGO lever, replacement is the only option. No 'repair' per se. Hopefully still in warranty.

BUT if my EPS crumps, and I cannot find a part/component(it's Athena but compatible with Chorus EPS, V2 and 3)..I'll go back to friction shifting and freewheels on my Merckx. I DO have an 80th group on a Moots..and would never dream of replacing that..it works ohh...so...well.

Price...who cares, over the life of the group, it's pennys per day. :)

[livingminimal]

I'd be curious on a gravel bike though since 785 levers were so freaking nice.

My gravel bike was built entirely on the premise that I would use wired now, and wireless when the technology and production quality improve. Its fantastic in cross and on gravel.

Only problem is crashing and breaking something means a more expensive replacement, but the ease, reliability and accuracy of shifting when you're on the limit is so damn worth it. And auto-trim. lawdy bless the auto trim for it knows exactly what it does.

[livingminimal]

I really didn't like the teeny, somewhat hard to find, shift buttons on Di2.

I like the increased size on the 9150 buttons. I haven't seen campy h/disc in person yet to know if they changed their buttons. Ive got no reason to switch to 9150 or 8000 any time in the future though. That is the thing about di2 - its hard to improve on perfect shifting. Im unmotivated to invest any money in a new system until 12 speed or wireless come along...I use a 32T now on my bikes, so going to a 34T isn't worth a wholesale swap.

Having pretty extensive use-history of 6770/6870 and 785 hydro over the last 5 years, the buttons have never bothered me EXCEPT when wearing long-fingered knit gloves. I've had some issues where the material gets caught between the buttons. Not really a big deal though.

I don't like the shift 'protocol' of etap(among other things..easy steve, don't get spooled up)..I don't like it, like my opinion..'kay?

That's always been one of two issues I've had with eTap. The biggest (and most thoughtful and unobnoxious) eTap fans point to the intuitive nature of the shifting, that it makes sense for your brain quickly, but I would submit...if you started on eTap and moved over to Di2/EPS, the same would hold true. You'd find it intuitive very quickly. That's our brains doing their job, not the result of some major engineering/design break-through.

To be honest, I find the idea of pushing buttons on both sides for the front shifting silly. Im sure I would adjust quickly (See above) but why would I want to or need to? Solutions for problems that don't exist. It also shifts slower than other systems. Not a deal breaker. There is no contract on the line for me if I shift .3 second slower, but I mean...when you're weighing all the variables and making a choice...

My other issue is it feels (and looks, to me) like it's of lower production value. The aesthetics of SRAM have always been pretty bad. The production quality on eTap has felt junky to me. Ive played with it in the stand and I've ridden it. I'd almost prefer SRAM mech to be honest. It just was weird and clunky/clicky in a way that felt rushed not well thought out. Pretty consistent with SRAM's output in recent years. Some of their 10s stuff was just abhorrent. (as abhorrent as something as silly as bike parts can be).

[oldpotatoe]

I like the increased size on the 9150 buttons. I haven't seen campy h/disc in person yet to know if they changed their buttons. Ive got no reason to switch to 9150 or 8000 any time in the future though. That is the thing about di2, Im unmotivated to invest any money in a new system until 12 speed or wireless come along...I use a 32T now on my bikes, so going to a 34T isn't worth a wholesale swap.

Having pretty extensive use-history of 6770/6870 and 785 hydro over the last 5 years, the buttons have never bothered me EXCEPT when wearing long-fingered knit gloves. I've had some issues where the material gets caught between the buttons. Not really a big deal though.

No, shift lever plus droopy thumb button on EPS..really ergonomic, IMHO, best of the bunch, again, IMHO. I don't know but like 30mm crank spindles/BB30 with shimano, I doubt shimano or Campagnolo sees any improvement or advancement in going wireless. Ease of installation but that's a mechanic's gig.

[livingminimal]

No, shift lever plus droopy thumb button on EPS..really ergonomic, IMHO, best of the bunch, again, IMHO. I don't know but like 30mm crank spindles/BB30 with shimano, I doubt shimano or Campagnolo sees any improvement or advancement in going wireless. Ease of installation but that's a mechanic's gig.

I would really, really like to try eps hydro but I am too far down the Shimano path on my disc bike fleet to make a wholesale switch. The only saving grace is Ive been only building wheel sets that have the ease of free hub body swap, so it is possible, but I wouldn't want to change just one bike, Id have to change at least two. $$$$$$$.

Besides, I really like Shimano for electronic, and I have campag on my peg, and I can only ride one bike at a time.

[ergott]

. Turns out the stuff had manufacturing issues. So, that's when stuff gets complicated. When it doesn't work. And whether the wrenches are Pro Tour professionals or $12/hour students, they won't have the time or resources to troubleshoot one of the thousands of parts they handle daily. Anyway, what are the odds that eTap may have design flaws. I mean it could never happen to the SRAMz.

Odd are they got etap right. I haven't read of any defects in shifting. Pointing out an issue with Campagnolo mfg issues, well Dura Ace went through a recent phase where the shift levers ate the cable ends ruining plenty of of rides.
Companies have had issues in the past, mechanical and electric. The good thing is they are anomalies and most of us get along just fine.

I stand by my statement that a mechanic that has multiple issues with etap is doing something wrong. Years experience doesn't mean anything in mechanics. I've seen mechanics with decades of experience ham fist bikes. I've seen noobs go slow, and methodical that do everything right.

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[El Chaba]

Eric, setting up these systems (mechanical and electronic) may not be quantum mechanics but what I've observed in thousands of hours of group riding is that while it may be easy to install a group, keeping it adjusted and performing flawlessly is another mater. Once the stuff gets wacky it's either a 5 min fix or a 5 day ordeal. When I posted about issues with Campy Revolution, the Paceline knee-jerk response was "Campy is easy if you read the instructions." The fact that my wrench has 40 years of experience was discounted. Turns out the stuff had manufacturing issues. So, that's when stuff gets complicated. When it doesn't work. And whether the wrenches are Pro Tour professionals or $12/hour students, they won't have the time or resources to troubleshoot one of the thousands of parts they handle daily. Anyway, what are the odds that eTap may have design flaws. I mean it could never happen to the SRAMz.

If we are talking about Velo Pasadena being the shop in question, they have some of the best mechanics anywhere...

[ptourkin]

If we are talking about Velo Pasadena being the shop in question, they have some of the best mechanics anywhere...

Good call. I thought he was talking about Flying Pigeon.

I have over 32k miles on my 9070 group and while I've had occasional issues, I don't think that's unusual for that much use. Shimano stands behind everything, warranty-wise as well.

[ergott]

Sorry for the derail, but alarm bells go off when experience is used as a defense when blaming equipment. Could there be an issue? Sure. I just haven't read of any from anywhere else.

I have found that following manufacturer's instructions and videos has not only helped me set up every group I've worked on, but it's taught me new tricks along the way. Any mechanic that dives into a new group install without checking all documentation is looking for trouble.

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[redir]

When ever I push the shift levers on my mechanical shifting bikes.... They change gears.

So... I guess I just don't have a problem that needs a fixin'. ;)

[shovelhd]

I've owned 7970, and currently own 9070 and 6870. I only own two bikes, both with Di2. Until something better comes out, I won't have anything else on my bikes.

As others have mentioned, is is great for those of us with smaller hands, and in my case, missing fingers. The sprint shifters are awesome, especially with compact bars. Shifts are clean and crisp every time. The charging thing is overblown. I have to charge my PC8 and Fly6 daily, so what. For the Di2 it's 3x/year, and I shift a ton. That's another plus, shifting is so easy you'll shift more often. The hood shape is perfect for my fitted position. It's also a good fit for a travel bike with a breakdown frame (BreakAway, coupled). No gear adjustments needed.

[chiasticon]

used di2 briefly and it worked quite well. that said, I wasn't a huge fan. setup sucked because fishing cables through a frame is awful, but you only do it once. the junction box on the stem looks clunky. the extra weight while paying extra money sucks. the buttons are annoyingly tiny. there's no real feedback as it just feels like mouse clicks. the auto-trim was awesome though as I hate trim on Shimano groups (part of why I love Sram with the Yaw FD - no trim).

overall, I'm happy with mechanical. when shifting starts getting less than perfect, I install new cables and use it as an excuse to give my bike a good cleaning and a solid once over. it probably needs it by that point.

[bikinchris]

used di2 briefly and it worked quite well. that said, I wasn't a huge fan. setup sucked because fishing cables through a frame is awful, but you only do it once. the junction box on the stem looks clunky. the extra weight while paying extra money sucks. the buttons are annoyingly tiny. there's no real feedback as it just feels like mouse clicks. the auto-trim was awesome though as I hate trim on Shimano groups (part of why I love Sram with the Yaw FD - no trim).

overall, I'm happy with mechanical. when shifting starts getting less than perfect, I install new cables and use it as an excuse to give my bike a good cleaning and a solid once over. it probably needs it by that point.

That's what I like about eTap. No fishing wires. The last custom build I sold has NO down tube cable stops or cable guides.

[zap]

eTap, you'll never go back...:banana:...seriously.

Oh god.......it's sram. That's like riding zipp wheels.......oh wait.

I had ZAP.........which never failed me during tt's.......did on 2 training rides when it started to rain.

Anyhow, I'm not that familiar with the current crop of electrics. OK, buddies did have di2 fail at inopportune times so best not to have electrics on a travel bike.

[Jgrooms]

I tried di2 6770 & thought it was pretty good. Heavy. I didn't set it up, but removing it I could see the wire fishing would be one time pia.

Now I've made the big pop to 11 & eTap. Exp aside, it rocks. Setup...wow.

I will agree w what others have posted, the front D trim is very narrow range, i.e getting it to lift up to the big ring consistently wo popping it over. I had some worn rings, which made the ramp up worse. New rings better, but still a 1/2 turn difference on the limit screw.

For long gravel, where you are shifting so much it is great. And the blips add a feature that cable systems can't match.

Battery concerns overrated imo. Get an extra (or two for Sram) & keep one set always on charger. With computer & lights, its not hard to add shift to the routine. While riding, if it worries you, carry an extra eTap. They are tiny.

Edit- weight. Etap was 50 grams heavier than Red 10. Minus the blips, lighter. That's measuring cables/housings, adjuster, guides, etc.

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[Mark McM]

Is it really?

Mind you, this is mostly an observation of how other people ride/shift with Di2; I don't have electronic shifting on any of my bikes (yet!), so I've only ever ridden my wife's bike around the block a few times...but it sure looks & sounds to me like the shifting is slower. Not remarkably slower, and probably not even critically slower, but it just seems...less immediate. Or less impacted by whatever is going on upstream of the lever (i.e., in your finger, your hand, your arm, your brain...)

This has been my experience as well. I've only done a few test rides with Shimano Di2 (not Campagnolo EPS or SRAM eTAP), and found that it shifted smoothly and well, but not fast - or at least slower than the Campagnolo mechanical shifting I'm used to. In particular, I found I missed the ability to the quick & direct multiple gear shifts that I often do.

After those test rides (with both 1st generation Dura-Ace Di2 and Ultegra Di2), I didn't find any compelling reasons to pursue it further. Electronic shifting appears be a valid alternative, and in a few situations it may even be advantageous. But for my riding, I see no particular advantage, and in fact some disadvantages (mostly cost, but also weight).

(One place I see electronic shifting to be particularly non-desirous is on an MTB. Here in the east, we do a lot riding through the woods, and it is not uncommon for sticks or branches to get caught in the drivetrain and resulting in a snapped derailleur. It's expensive enough to snap a $40 - $100 derailleur, I'd hate to have to replace a lot of $200 - $300 derailleurs.)

[ptourkin]

A pal's etap has been at the shop 3x. It's noisy and rubs and drops chains on both the cassette and now the big ring. Today, he threw his chain on the outside 4x in 2 hours. In fact, the FD cage is now rubbing the crank arm and the beautiful cranks have been marred. Oh, his LBS sells more 10K plus bikes than any other shop in the state, Above Category included. So, maybe it's too simple and perfect for the professional wrenches. Saboteurs!

Narrowing the shop down now because Orange 20 closed forever yesterday...

[John H.]

I say ride what you like (I won't try to convince those who say they like the tactile feel of mechanical shifting).

But the only Con to DI2 is that it is not idiot-proof.
I guess that is true of most things, but with DI2 if you forget to charge or are not familiar with how long a charge holds on your bike- you may be in for some surprises.

On the plus side- No fraying 9000 cables inside shifter, and no cable stretch on a new build-

Net Net I prefer DI2.

[Jgrooms]

A pal's etap has been at the shop 3x. It's noisy and rubs and drops chains on both the cassette and now the big ring. Today, he threw his chain on the outside 4x in 2 hours. In fact, the FD cage is now rubbing the crank arm and the beautiful cranks have been marred. Oh, his LBS sells more 10K plus bikes than any other shop in the state, Above Category included. So, maybe it's too simple and perfect for the professional wrenches. Saboteurs!



That's a shop/mech issue. Zero reason that the rear d limit screws can't be set correctly. Cage rubbing the crank? That's some hamfisted wrenching there. Same guy setting that up can't trim up a mechanical system either.


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[Gummee]

Oh god.......it's sram. That's like riding zipp wheels.......oh wait.

I had ZAP.........which never failed me during tt's.......did on 2 training rides when it started to rain.

Anyhow, I'm not that familiar with the current crop of electrics. OK, buddies did have di2 fail at inopportune times so best not to have electrics on a travel bike.

I kept a spare battery in my bar plug when running Zap. Only had to use it once in the time I was running it.

Me? Love the idea. Working on it mechanic-wise is fairly easy. ...but I have 3 CX bikes and 4 road bikes that'd need upgrading. I don't wanna spend that much $$ to make em all same-same.

M

[shovelhd]

This has been my experience as well. I've only done a few test rides with Shimano Di2 (not Campagnolo EPS or SRAM eTAP), and found that it shifted smoothly and well, but not fast - or at least slower than the Campagnolo mechanical shifting I'm used to. In particular, I found I missed the ability to the quick & direct multiple gear shifts that I often do.

Shifting speed is adjustable both electronically and mechanically.

[BdaGhisallo]

Really well said, and my opinion as well.

I would add to it that just like car manufacturers trying to make cars impossible to work on for shade tree mechanics, I believe bicycle manufacturers are trying to do the same thing with bikes. The beauty of the bicycle to me has always been it's simplicity and elegant function, so even as an ex-shop mechanic, I find Di2 really off-putting. Is mechanical shifting really that hard? Apparently for some it is..


This may hold true for frame and wheel manufacturers but I don't know if it holds for Shimano, or in the same manner at least. We must remember that Shimano views its distributors as its customers and that end users are down the totem pole. Distributors sell components. They don't service them. Shimano wants to make products that its customers will buy more of and products that will draw them away from their competitors.

Sure, I'll concede that the recent trend for high end bike components is to replace rather than repair and that does favor Shimano and its distributors, but I doubt Shimano are consciously engineering their products to ensure more work for bike shops to service them. I am sure LBS service departments are the least of Shimano's concern.

[hellvetica]

Love Di2.

Riding it exclusively for over 12k miles on my primary road bike. The downside was having one battery and realizing when you stepped out to ride that it was dead ... that was fixed by buying a back up that I keep charged. Or just grab another bike.

Also the self adjustments are great for someone who has no freaking idea how to adjust derailleurs. yeah yeah.

[beeatnik]

That's a shop/mech issue. Zero reason that the rear d limit screws can't be set correctly. Cage rubbing the crank? That's some hamfisted wrenching there. Same guy setting that up can't trim up a mechanical system either.


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Shop has probably set up 10x more eTap bikas than it's nearest competitor. The flagship has about 10 wrenches. In any case, the issue is not w the shop but with the FD.


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[beeatnik]

Narrowing the shop down now because Orange 20 closed forever yesterday...



It's Walmart, yo.

By the way, does anyone know if Campagnolo is better than Shimano? I'm asking in advance for user PNW. We're a community!


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[adrien]

A big con for me is all the wires, dangly bits, harnesses, and the notion that to integrate into a frame it really needs to be a di-2 specific frame, with special drillings and related fussiness.

I like electronic shifting for some kinds of bikes. I like the idea, and it has real advantages.

What I like about eTap is it takes the idea and makes a simple machine MORE simple, not less so. Di2 never tempted me away from mechanical. Etap has. At this point, with both on the market, I couldn't bring myself to answer...if I can have all of the good without the dangly bits and junctions, why wouldn't I?

(and yes, I know some of you have an aversive response to SRAM. Mine's been perfect for 10,000 miles, save my own error. But then again I've had and liked SRAM for years)

[Jgrooms]

Shop has probably set up 10x more eTap bikas than it's nearest competitor. The flagship has about 10 wrenches. In any case, the issue is not w the shop but with the FD.


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Really & yet his rear d shifts into the wheel or off the small cog as you described? That's a basic limit screw adj and is not in the least bit any diff on etap vs mech. The limits are the limits. If someone can't get that set they have no business working on a bike.

Now for the front, that's a different fish because the etap is self trimming vs the mechanical.

And how exactly dose one set the angle so it rubs the crank wo being classified as an incompetent wrench? Did they shim it? Sounds like they skipped that if the d is twisted over to ruin the crank. There are two very simple alignment marks vis a via the d angle to chainring.

I rode 40 today after new chainrings & not one overshift. Once I was comfortable with it on the way home w a big tailwind I started putting it in awkward shifts to see if it'd push it over. No problems. So, as I mentioned prev, I think the front has a narrow range between getting it up & then pushing it off. So my worn chainring caused me to put it too far over so it'd come up consistently.

And if anyone else is having this issue- tips to help. Run that shim. And the d has that height range to the teeth setting. Run it down to the top limit.




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[beeatnik]

^On the cassette the chain was skipping and dropping a cog (upshifting into larger gear). Appears the cassette needs to be replaced. I guess weight weenie SRAMz cassettes with under 200 miles can have issues? Impossible, I know.

As for the FD, it's been adjusted again. We'll see what happens. Cranks are new Red (member and superb wrench rhallman has concluded that DA cranks work better w the Tapz than the native Redz).

Bike parts are so weird


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[ergott]

To anyone having issues with eTap. Watch the Sram videos on youtube. They are very good at showing how it's set up and it's just a bit different that you would with mechanical. I watched the vids and my shifting came out perfect. I even played with the middle gear micro adjustments when I was using a Campagnolo 11 wheel and got that to shift perfectly and silently. Now I have a Red cassette and my bike is quieter then may of my friends Shimano so even with that dome cassette things can run smooth and silent.

Any end user that owns the stuff would be well served spending 10 minutes watching this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlLwu-SDo5w

One possible issue I could think of is to check the chainline of the crank and that the correct spacers are used between the BB and the crank spindle. Maybe crank is skewed one way or the other which can happen depending on the frame and spindle used.

[adrien]

^On the cassette the chain was skipping and dropping a cog (upshifting into larger gear). Appears the cassette needs to be replaced. I guess weight weenie SRAMz cassettes with under 200 miles can have issues? Impossible, I know.

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No. I would not let a mech who told me that near my bike. I'm on my third red 22 cassette. Average life, under 210 pounds of me, is 10,000 miles. I could see a chain being an issue, or accelerated wear from bad installation. But not this. Second opinion time.

[bfd]

A big con for me is all the wires, dangly bits, harnesses, and the notion that to integrate into a frame it really needs to be a di-2 specific frame, with special drillings and related fussiness.

I like electronic shifting for some kinds of bikes. I like the idea, and it has real advantages.

What I like about eTap is it takes the idea and makes a simple machine MORE simple, not less so. Di2 never tempted me away from mechanical. Etap has. At this point, with both on the market, I couldn't bring myself to answer...if I can have all of the good without the dangly bits and junctions, why wouldn't I?

(and yes, I know some of you have an aversive response to SRAM. Mine's been perfect for 10,000 miles, save my own error. But then again I've had and liked SRAM for years)

In contrast, I've been a Campy guys for all of my riding life or about 30 years. I've tried Sram doubletap and hated it. However, after 20+ years of riding one bike, I decided this year to get a new one and what did I get?!

Yup, I wanted e-shifting and got etap! I like the wireless feature and no cable/wires. One of my buddies is "Mr. Etap" and has like 3 bikes with it. He raves about how the shifters are "intuitive."

However, coming from Campy ergos, I find that etap, while interesting and kind of fun, isn't that intuitive. My buddy raves how if you want to make it harder you shift the right lever and to go easier you shift the left lever. But it is the opposite of Campy. To go to an "easier" gear, you shift the right inner blade in. So I do find I shift up instead of down on etap and have to correct. Since I'm now on 11 speeds instead of 9, the change isn't too bad and I can easily correct.

Of course, YMMV! Good Luck!

[soulspinner]

When ever I push the shift levers on my mechanical shifting bikes.... They change gears.

So... I guess I just don't have a problem that needs a fixin'. ;)

ya...I like keeping my cycling as simple as possible. No dangling things under the stem and to think of it Campy 11 shifts with a crack I hear and positive feel. Adjusted properly with good cables, I dont have any issues. But I prefer my friends manual shifting Porsche 911 to my companie"s owners PDK 911. The PDK is faster than I can shift, but I can heel and toe and feel more immersed in the driving with the manual. Your mileage may vary as Im a 61 year old retro grouch. I will duck now.

[hobbanero]

I use sprint shifters and love them. On another bike I have the sprint shifters and some buttons hacked to a climbing shifter. For me, the only downside of Di2 is cost and having to remember to charge the battery (which is not that big a deal). I have seen people at races a couple of times who forget their batteries or found them to be dead after the warmup. That is easily avoided. Part of my pre-race bike prep is to oil the chain and charge the battery. I do this a couple of days before a race.