Carbon Wheels???

[booglebug]

My Saturday group rides consist of several different riders from old school to electronic shifting. A few of the guys have deep carbon wheels, mostly Reynolds and others. Our terrain is rolling to mostly hills, some short and steep to 5 miles at 5 to 12 percent with some valley rides mixed in. Seems we are going up or down consistently. Have questioned a couple of the guys about their carbon wheels and there response was " they just feel fast ". Now I ride some nice hand built WI t11 Pancenti, DT 240 Archtype and WI Archtype. Please tell me what I'm missing? Weight seems to be close. We all like to ride something that feels fast be it a frame or something that makes a difference. Tell me what I'm missing!

[oldguy00]

Like many here, I've had the opportunity to ride the whole gamut of wheels over the past 20 years.
Honestly, mostly what you are missing is having a cool looking wheelset. The difference in weight means next to nothing, literally.

Yes, the deep wheels are faster because of aerodynamics, but not in a way that you can tell at any moment while riding. Thats not to say they won't necessarily -feel- different, but in terms of your average speed, you are likely talking less than 1km/hr from your wheelset to a full on deep carbon set like Zipp 808.

If you ever get dropped by the other guys in your group, it has nothing to do with their carbon wheels. :)

[makoti]

I have both Enve 3.4 & WI T11/Pacenti SL23's. I'm on the Pacenti's 80% of the time. Unless it's a ride with lots of flat, I feel just as fast (or not) on them as I do the Enves.

[hobbanero]

At zero yaw (ie. no wind or straight headwind), you are not giving up much. As the wind starts to go more cross, you lose more and more and you can be talking about 10-20 watts if you believe the marketing depts of the wheel companies. Well more than 1 sec/km, but not a miracle. Wearing an aero helmet or race cut jersey/bibs will do as much or more. Doing a bit of stretching so that you can drop your shoulder another inch will do more.

But none of these things look as cool at the coffee shop as carbon wheels.

[Lanternrouge]

If you are buying your own stuff, all that really matters is that you like it. For me, it's enough that it makes me think I'm faster and looks cool, but more so that it looks cool. You may feel a more noticeable difference from just switching tires.

[nmrt]

Deep section wheels definitely have an aero advantage. I do not ride them but I do ride carbon reynolds thirty two tubular. They weigh about 1070 g and feel pretty fast. I have seen that in flat roads for my 15 mile commute, I am about 30-45 sec faster compared to my dura ace c24 clinchers (1420 g). now, this is not scientific at all and it may very well be that my legs were fresher the day I rode the reynolds or i had a good nights sleep.

regardless, as Lanternrouge said, if you think it will make to feel fast, make you ride more and if you have money for it, GO FOR IT! :banana:
If you are buying your own stuff, all that really matters is that you like it. For me, it's enough that it makes me think I'm faster and looks cool, but more so that it looks cool. You may feel a more noticeable difference from just switching tires.

[uber]

Maybe it is totally in my head, but when riding flats and hammering with friends in a paceline over 23-24 mph, I feel like I am not working as hard using 6.7's compared to 3.4's. My understanding is the penalty paid for deeper wheels (aside from the cost) is increased weight and being subject to more influence from crosswinds. I am hoping for more educated responses from those more knowlegable.

[saab2000]

I have both Enve 3.4 & WI T11/Pacenti SL23's. I'm on the Pacenti's 80% of the time. Unless it's a ride with lots of flat, I feel just as fast (or not) on them as I do the Enves.

Same here. I've had Enve 3.4s as well and own a pair of ENVE 45 tubulars.

I sold the 3.4s and replaced them with Boyd Altamont Lite aluminum wheels with WI T11 hubs. Fantastic.

I don't really miss the jarring ride of the 3.4s and I don't miss the buffeting in crosswinds, though the 3.4s weren't really too bad. The 45s are much worse.

The aero really doesn't come into play until you're doing higher speeds and in a group setting the air is so turbulent I doubt it matters all that much.

Bottom line? For me at least I'm over deep aero wheels for 99.9% of my riding.

Maybe for TTs they're useful and for high level racing they might be too. But for daily riding I'm done with them.

[sw3759]

thanks Saab,makes me feel better since I've never ridden carbon and don't like hi profile rims.i purchased the same Boyd Altamont Lite aluminum wheels with WI T11 hubs during the sale..it was difficult not to take the carbon plunge but these really are some fantastic wheels.if I ever go do carbon i'll get them from boyd.

[oldguy00]

The aero really doesn't come into play until you're doing higher speeds ...

.

This is actually old school thinking and very untrue. Lots of science out there, analyticalcycling, etc, available to show why it isn't true.

As I said above, the aero advantage in general is small, but it is there, and you don't have to be going fast to realize it over a time trial.

Here's why...
Yes, at faster speed, you will gain more wattage savings than at slower speed. But at slow speed, you are still getting an aero advantage, even if it is small. AND, consider, that the slower rider in a TT is out on course longer than a faster rider. So even though the slower rider is saving less watts, they are in fact saving more overall time quite often because of how long they are out there enjoying the small aero gains.

THAT said, again, it is very small regardless.

If you want to look at some very good, very recent data with time savings estimates for different depth wheels, check out Flo's aero data. If you don't want to bother reading, I'll let you in on it - they estimate a time savings of roughly 55 seconds over 40km going from a normal spoke wheel to a 60mm wheel.
And that is likely best case scenario of all factors (road surface, tire pressure, quality tires, riding straight, etc etc etc).

Your local weekend race to the coffee shop, ain't gonna matter.

I absolutely recommend getting nice carbon wheels, because they do look way nicer, and life is too short to ride boring wheels IMHO. AND, put veloflex carbons on if tubular, and Conti GP4000S II's 25mm if clincher. And, if clincher, use latex tubes (but not for your spare, latex doesn't play nice with CO2).

Flo:

http://www.flocycling.com/aero.php

Cheers

[Jgrooms]

I enjoy my 303s & 404s just because they seem to irritate guys like you [emoji3].




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[oldpotatoe]

My Saturday group rides consist of several different riders from old school to electronic shifting. A few of the guys have deep carbon wheels, mostly Reynolds and others. Our terrain is rolling to mostly hills, some short and steep to 5 miles at 5 to 12 percent with some valley rides mixed in. Seems we are going up or down consistently. Have questioned a couple of the guys about their carbon wheels and there response was " they just feel fast ". Now I ride some nice hand built WI t11 Pancenti, DT 240 Archtype and WI Archtype. Please tell me what I'm missing? Weight seems to be close. We all like to ride something that feels fast be it a frame or something that makes a difference. Tell me what I'm missing!

Lotsa $ out of your pocket? Carbon 'feels' fast cuz a lot cuz a lot of them are so stiff. It really isn't 'less weight at the rim', flywheel effect type thing..that's lost in the noise. A lot is 'feel', which means subjective, which means 'I spent a lot n these, oh my, do they feel fast'...

BUT, some LBS have carbon wheel test ride/rental programs..see if there is one around you and try 'em.

[oldguy00]

I enjoy my 303s & 404s just because they seem to irritate guys like you [emoji3].




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Not sure who the reply was for, but I love Zipps! :)

A Zipp Super9 clincher disc, and 808 clincher front, are my triathlon race wheels (on a trek SC9)

[oldguy00]

Lotsa $ out of your pocket?....

That's true, but lets be honest, does anyone need a $3k+ frameset either? :)

[regularguy412]

IMO:

I routinely ride my 2nd bike which has a mix of , Mavic Elite front with low spoke count and a 32 hole Open Pro-type wheel rear wheel. I can tell when up over about 22 mph that that setup seems to get 'heavy', slightly harder to turn. I also have a set of M55 Mercury carbon clinchers and a set of 38mm Easton carbon tubulars. Neither of those sets get heavy. When up around 28-30 mph, it's not the wheels that are the issue, it's ME.

Just seems like the carbon wheels let me 'rest' a bit in a paceline at speed. The effect is small, but it is noticeable.

Mike in AR:beer:

[redir]

The only thing I notice with my deep carbon wheels is that they are significantly lighter. It's pretty amazing to look at what appears to be a huge and heavy wheel and then pick it up and it feels like air. Especially when compared to some light weight box section aluminum tubular wheels that look so small but are heavier.

As for the ride? The deep carbon wheels are stiffer and that's why I prefer them to be tubulars. but that's about the only thing I notice in ride quality. A good box section wheel rides better imho, more comfortable. But the deep carbon wheels make a cool sound too :)

The aero advantage is of course there too, that math has been worked out a long time ago. But does it really matter on a weekend group ride? Don't think so.

[etu]

See if you can borrow a pair (along with the brake pads). Used to ride aluminum clincher only, but over the past couple of years I've started using aluminum tubulars which are great and then carbon tubulars which are amazing. Has nothing to do with speed for me as I am not that fast. It's the ride. Quick and responsive and light. One of those things you'll just have try.
Also just changed from mavic open pro/cross boss combo to zipp 404/schwalbe racing ralph tubular on my gravel bike. The bike rides completely differently.

[cmbicycles]

That's true, but lets be honest, does anyone need a $3k+ frameset either? :)

Absoultely, especially when you can get it used on the forum. :banana: All three of my current bikes came 2nd/3rd hand on the forum and there is no (easily justifiable) way I could purchase new.
OK, back on topic... I have some Reynolds 46/66 wheels on my tri bike, but I can go just as fast on my bikes setup for road riding with Archetype rims. I haven't put the reynolds wheels on my road bike as I dont want to swap brake pads back and forth; maybe they are faster, lighter, better and i'm missing out.

[chiasticon]

It's the ride. Quick and responsive and light. One of those things you'll just have try.OP: generally speaking, does an aluminum or carbon frame feel lighter, stiffer and more responsive than a steel or titanium one? if you feel the answer to this question is "yes", then you should at least try deep carbon wheels. and I recommend they be tubular.

[sparky33]

Carbon wheels are fun. Borrowing a set is worthwhile. The shallow ones are super light and spin up quickly. The deeper ones give a clear sense of momentum preservation at speed. The difference is slight, but it exists.

I've been really happy with Boyd 44mm tubs with WI hubs and Boyd 28mm clinchers.

[booglebug]

OP: generally speaking, does an aluminum or carbon frame feel lighter, stiffer and more responsive than a steel or titanium one? if you feel the answer to this question is "yes", then you should at least try deep carbon wheels. and I recommend they be tubular.

I ride Ti and steel, have never owned a carbon frame so am in the dark here. Guess the bling factor of something like Campy Boras have me interested, sure look nice on a Ti frame.

[fogrider]

I agree with many of the responses that carbon wheels can be faster! To be clear, it's still the engine at the end of the day that really counts. I'm an old guy that's trying to hang on to as much speed as I can find. I have a few bikes with various wheels, aluminum and carbon. I So here are my thoughts, as old potato has said, carbon wheels are stiffer. And stiffer makes for more responsive and deeper rims typically are stiffer. But everything from handlebars to the wheels need to be stiff. Then drop as much weight as possible, go straight to tubulars. I'm on Reynolds 45s and the weight for the pair is 1150 grams and I have a pair of 32s thats about the same. if you go with clinchers, the weight in right around 1500 grams. I also have aluminum tubulars that are 1500-1600.

here's the trick, during the week, I'm on aluminum wheels for commute or lunch rides, then on the weekend I'm on the fast wheels with the boys. It feels faster! the thing about aero wheels is that you can go faster for longer. the thing about lighter wheels is acceleration, if you what to sprint, stiff and light wheels will accelerate like nothing else.



My Saturday group rides consist of several different riders from old school to electronic shifting. A few of the guys have deep carbon wheels, mostly Reynolds and others. Our terrain is rolling to mostly hills, some short and steep to 5 miles at 5 to 12 percent with some valley rides mixed in. Seems we are going up or down consistently. Have questioned a couple of the guys about their carbon wheels and there response was " they just feel fast ". Now I ride some nice hand built WI t11 Pancenti, DT 240 Archtype and WI Archtype. Please tell me what I'm missing? Weight seems to be close. We all like to ride something that feels fast be it a frame or something that makes a difference. Tell me what I'm missing!

[Mark McM]

if you what to sprint, stiff and light wheels will accelerate like nothing else.

Although real, the difference in acceleration with light wheels is very small, and below the threshold of "just noticeable difference" for most people.

Here's an article about it:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Why_Wheel_Aerodynamics_Can_Outweigh_Wheel_Weight_a nd_Inertia_2106.html

For an increase in wheel weight of 400 grams (almost a pound), he found that the pedal force for a high power acceleration increases from 58.6 lb. to 58.9 lb, or a difference of 0.5%. When Cervelo tested the threshold of Just Noticeable Difference for many bicycle characteristics, they found most people could notice a difference of 5%, and few people could notice a difference of 2%. But 0.5%? I find it hard to believe that any but the most sensitive could notice this difference.

[fogrider]

Its a combination of all the things I mentioned. The cross bike I commute on is more than 21 pounds, the carbon go fast race bike with aero carbon wheels I ride on the weekend is 15 pounds. Anyone can feel the difference!

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[RyanH]

Going from a nice set of clinchers with latex tubes and Veloflex masters to Bora Tubulars on my Litespeed Classic was night and day. I almost solely ride tubulars but when I got the classic, I purchased a clincher set since I figured it be my bad weather bike. Every time I was on that bike it just felt sluggish and like I was driving a Cadillac (which is good in the straights and not so good for the turns). Frankly, I grew to loathe the bike. Prior to putting it on the chopping block last month, I decided to give it a fair shake and did a big mountain day (60 miles and 8K of climbing) with the Boras. The bike was a blast and it was a completely different bike.

My opinion is don't get carbon wheels unless you're going to tubulars. Don't go to tubulars unless you're going to do it right and get Veloflex or similar tires (Vittoria is kinda of garbage IMO, but still better than Sprinters). Also, get the newer wider rims (my recommendation is the Boras, I have two sets and probably acquiring a third, they're that good). Also, don't get 404s unless you're comfortable handling them, my gosh those things are terrible in cross winds. Reynolds are super stiff with a good brake track but ride a tad harsh. Pre-SES Enve have the worst brake tracks. What else? I don't know, just get Boras ;-)

[Jgrooms]

Not sure who the reply was for, but I love Zipps! :)



A Zipp Super9 clincher disc, and 808 clincher front, are my triathlon race wheels (on a trek SC9)



For the op, but...

I'm just being am snarky. But the 'drama' over carbon wheels...lol.

They are faster, stiffer, more responsive, all things mentioned. You want to ride others, cool. I'll switharoo my 202, 303, 404 combos depending on conditions.
When I try a 100 pr, if its not too windy, I'll use the 808. So Im currently at 4:38 & that's not happening on a non aero wheel for me.

And for what its worth I'm on mid level frames & feel the $ is on the wheels/hubs.

Just PL'd the 303nsws & they are smokin' :-))


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[spinarelli]

I have a similar question about more shallow carbon wheels vs aluminum wheels.
on my Ti bike I am currently using a boxier rim, DT Swiss RR-1450 clinchers, with 28mm Vittoria Corsa G+, latex tubes. pretty light wheelset at 1450grams.
What noticeable differences are there if I switched to a zipp 202 or Enve ses 2.2? The enve is about 300 grams lighter but the zipp 202 firecrest is also 1450grams.
I see a lot of zipp wheels come up for sale in the local classifieds and some of the prices are very tempted, though most of the time are 404s which are a bit too deep for me.

[madsciencenow]

Lots of good points here and my experience is that there is for sure a different feeling from one rim to the next but regardless of what rim I choose to ride I'm not suddenly passing guys or getting passed by guys that I ordinarily hang with just because I'm on a carbon hoop or aluminum, respectively. It's been said already by OP that if you wanna see if you like the feel of carbon go to your LBS and see if they have a demo program for Zipps or something similar. This point has been made here and elsewhere but tire selection and maybe even tubes are a part of the equation too.


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[Black Dog]

Although real, the difference in acceleration with light wheels is very small, and below the threshold of "just noticeable difference" for most people.

Here's an article about it:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Why_Wheel_Aerodynamics_Can_Outweigh_Wheel_Weight_a nd_Inertia_2106.html

For an increase in wheel weight of 400 grams (almost a pound), he found that the pedal force for a high power acceleration increases from 58.6 lb. to 58.9 lb, or a difference of 0.5%. When Cervelo tested the threshold of Just Noticeable Difference for many bicycle characteristics, they found most people could notice a difference of 5%, and few people could notice a difference of 2%. But 0.5%? I find it hard to believe that any but the most sensitive could notice this difference.

Yes, Reality. Perception is certainly not reality until the data says so.

[Tickdoc]

Mine are faster. ....jus sayin.

[sitzmark]

This. If you like 'em buy them and if not, not. Simple.

Lotsa $ out of your pocket? Carbon 'feels' fast cuz a lot cuz a lot of them are so stiff. It really isn't 'less weight at the rim', flywheel effect type thing..that's lost in the noise. A lot is 'feel', which means subjective, which means 'I spent a lot n these, oh my, do they feel fast'...

BUT, some LBS have carbon wheel test ride/rental programs..see if there is one around you and try 'em.

[booglebug]

Small area no test available. This is more about feel than speed. Old guy that can hang when in shape but the climbing is a challenge as I have a little more weight added since graduating. Can see you racers swear by the gains of these but for me I still want a comfortable ride. Something that feels fast is fun to ride no matter age or conditioning. As said I ride nice hand builds, do wheels such as
Boras ride as nice ? As a racer in the 80's I understand well that it's the motor!