another tubular gluing thread

[coylifut]

I just had a bear of time mounting 2 conti competitions on a set of 404s. i bought the tires about a month ago and up until Tuesday, they've been stretching on a set of rims. when i brought the zips home, i put the tires on without glue and they slid right on. so i applied glue to rim and tire laying on about 5 applications over the last couple of days. today i put on one more glue ap and attempted to mount em. i had to call for help from an extremely burley neighbor and it was all we could do to get em on. centering em was even harder and all though i worked like hell, i didn't get em perfect. i'll tell ya, they ain't comin off.

where did i go wrong? did they shrink over the last couple of days in my garage. i've never had that tough of a time stretching tires on.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[chrisroph]

Race em in crits and road races in addition to tt's. That way, you can wear the tires out more quickly and I'll help you mount the next set. :beer:

[11.4]

Competitions end up needing 2-3 coats of rim cement on the base tape, because the fabric sucks up so much of the cement -- until there's a fairly even sticky coating on the surface of the tire when it's dried, you aren't going to get glue-to-glue adhesion that's needed. Then the rim needs a good two coats, possibly three, depending on how well the profile of the tire matches that of the rim.

By this point, most tires have returned to their pre-stretched diameter, plus rim cement on certain base tapes causes them to shrink. Conti's are certainly in this category. What I tend to do is prestretch the tire, apply the rim cement coats to the base tape, let it dry, and then mount it on a dry clean rim, lightly inflated. It won't stick to the bare metal. Let it sit just an hour or two, but overnight is better. Then glue up your rim for the final coat, pull the tire off the clean rim, and immediately mount it on the wet-glued wheel. It'll go on like a charm. I can wrestle a tire if I need to, but it just isn't that much fun. This way the tire is more evenly tensioned along the rim, so it holds on better and also has a more consistent diameter. The better the tire (i.e., when I'm dealing with a good track tire) the less this is necessary, because the tire and base tape stretch easily and fit the rim best. But if you have a problematic tire (just about any tire except a light track tire or a Dugast, i.e., any tire under $100) it's worth it to stretch after gluing.

[coylifut]

thanks. i suspected it certainly shrunk. i have a new bare rim and i'll use your method next time. it's cx season and i've got gluing to do.

[Too Tall]

Yes, it shrunk after application of glue layers. I have a slightly diff. method than 11.4 (aka THE MAN). By coincidence I just glued up a set of competitions too :) Great tyre.

After the base tape is dry, several thin layers of glue applied etc. Now use your bare foot and hands to stretch the tyre in all directions immed. prior to mounting it on a fresh wet coat rim. Put the valve in first and stretch HARD in both directions as you lay the tyre onto the rim and get it to stretch onto the rim...now as you near the end because the tyre glue is dry you can press your thumbs into the base tape to help you stretch the tyre on...now finish straightening it and pump to full pressure...deflate to 10 psi and finish straightening it.

DO NOT use solvent to clean the rim if you get glue on it. Wait for it to dry than rub it off with your thumb. Solvent fumes will destroy basetape bonds.

Tubulars G-d and Country ;)

[catulle]

Tubulars G-d and Country ;)

About in that order.

I like Conti Competitions because they ride well and because they are pretty tough (tough in terms of flats). A few months ago I glued a pair which I had stretching for a few months and because I used Tufo Extreme the job was very, very easy. It was the first time I used the Tufo stuff and I've been riding them since totally trouble free.

The Tufo tape is a tiny bit wide if you asked me, and it shows on the sides of the tubular when you use 19mm tubulars like I do. I'll be using the tape again on my new set of Reflex rims with a pair of Gommaitalia Platinum tubulars. I wonder what will be the result as the Reflex rim is also a bit wide. Anyway, the Tufo tape does make the initial installation a stroll in the park.

[coylifut]

About in that order.

I used Tufo Extreme the job was very, very easy. It was the first time I used the Tufo stuff and I've been riding them since totally trouble free.



that stuff scares the bee-jesus out of me. it's the whole fear of the unknown thang.

[Too Tall]

I think you'll like the Platinums Mr. Natural. They really come alive at lower pressure ranges. They are not super durable so don't look for long life. Enjoy.

[catulle]

I think you'll like the Platinums Mr. Natural. They really come alive at lower pressure ranges. They are not super durable so don't look for long life. Enjoy.


What would be your fav tubie, TT...? I mean, the ideal, dreaming that $ is not an issue. Hey, thanks...!

[catulle]

that stuff scares the bee-jesus out of me. it's the whole fear of the unknown thang.

Our Ergott uses it on a regular basis. I think he ought to know a thing or two about wheels and tires and such. Anyway, I appreciate your sentiment as I first tried my recently glued tubies with caution. Of course, I ain't no Fausto Coppi but so far my rig has worked just fine. I wonder what it will be like when the time to change tubies rears its head, though. I'll let you know.

:beer:

[spiderman]

is a real encouragement to me.
i bought a set of 2006 eurus tubulars,
glued the rims and dugast tires
and next morning proceeded to mount them...
...i am just now healing from the blisters
on my fingertips...
i was about ready to bail on the whole tubular investment...
instead, knowing i was suffering from shrinkage
goes a long way in helping me rebound from this setback.
my only problem is
that i put the new wheels on my wife's bike...
...and she likes them so much better than her cosmic carbones
especially in high crosswinds,
that she won't give them back!!

[coylifut]

Our Ergott uses it on a regular basis. I think he ought to know a thing or two about wheels and tires and such. Anyway, I appreciate your sentiment as I first tried my recently glued tubies with caution. Of course, I ain't no Fausto Coppi but so far my rig has worked just fine. I wonder what it will be like when the time to change tubies rears its head, though. I'll let you know.

:beer:

I'm sure it works great, but I'm old, grumpy and stuck in my ways. Maybe next year it will be "the" thing that I try that's new to me.

[Too Tall]

Why does this keep happening to meeeee?
Send me the Carbones and the Dugasts I'll keep them safe and sound ;)

My fav. tubular tire price be d@mned is the Veloflex Crit. Sticks like glue and once you figure out how to pump them the ride is like buttah.

[Redturbo]

Put the tire in the dryer for about 5-10 mins. Even the Conti's slip right on.

[coylifut]

Put the tire in the dryer for about 5-10 mins. Even the Conti's slip right on.

what happens to the layers of glue that's on em. does it get goey. if i get any on the inside of the dryer, my wife will have my @ss.

[Redturbo]

Just stand the tire up in the back of the dryer, the centrifugal force keeps the tire rubber side down. no problems. but, your results may vary.

[coylifut]

Just stand the tire up in the back of the dryer, the centrifugal force keeps the tire rubber side down. no problems. but, your results may vary.

sounds good. if i mess up the dryer, i'll blame it on the dog like everything else.

[11.4]

Tall,

When I'm in a pinch I'll just stretch the tire around my knees and then pull like crazy, but with too many tires you end up with a 2-4 mm difference in tubular diameter, narrowest where you had to stretch the most. On the track, or on rollers, it's really annoying. And on the road I notice it and just prefer a better installation. Hence the extra step.

That clothes dryer method has been around since the 70's. I sometimes think it's like the pretty girl in the hotel bar that ends up in your losing a kidney. With old red Clement cements the glue just ran like paint and yes, you got divorced. Unpleasantly. With Mastik One or Conti cement, you soften the glue up a lot, so I find the tire is more mess to put on and the glue tends to separate more easily from the base tape afterwards. What's nice about the rim approach is simply that I can have a glued up tire sitting on a rim, hanging in the tire closet (yes, I have a closet for my tires -- another story). I can glue and replace a tire, even a track tire, typically in an evening. With the speed at which I wear through track tires, that's important.

[catulle]

My fav. tubular tire price be d@mned is the Veloflex Crit. Sticks like glue and once you figure out how to pump them the ride is like buttah.


I'll make a point of trying them. Thanks a bunch...!

[Too Tall]

Granularity of tubular tyre knowldge just got finer. Never would have attributed "bahbump bahbump" to uneven stretch. Luckily I do have some clean stretching rims. Haha, the "closet" in my house is also filled with tyres ;) Guests sometimes wonder.

[gone]

What I tend to do is prestretch the tire, apply the rim cement coats to the base tape, let it dry, and then mount it on a dry clean rim, lightly inflated. It won't stick to the bare metal.
So when you say "dry, clean rim" do you mean one that has no glue on it at all i.e., a new rim or one that's had all the glue removed?

[Kevan]

but if there ever was an endoresement for clinchers, this thread is it.


That said, someday I'll try cementing with you guys.

[gceconi]

I've been riding Tubi's since the 80's and here is how I used to approach the gluing of tubi's to new rims:(this is for steel rims, I've not had carbon fiber yet so I cannot speak about that. I would imagine carbon wheels have an aluminum contact surface though for tire mounting.)

1. Clean the aluminum rim first with several applications of rubbing alcohol to remove any oils used in the manufacturing process.

2. Pre-stretch the tires onto the rim(w/o glue obviously) and inflate to about 100 psi and let them sit for about 2 days. This will make your life sooooo much easier when you are ready for the final application with glue. Deflate the tires and take them off now.

3. Put several very thin beads of tire glue onto the rim, allowing each application to dry before putting the next on. 2-3 times is usually good. I use 3M Fast Tack automotive trim adhesive. I've been using it religiously for years and was brought up with it from the local bike shop. I've never, never, rolled a tire yet using it. Wear gloves as it is very, very tacky and hard to get off. It dries super quick too so work fast.You can buy this stuff if you choose to use it, at any automotive supply store. It's a red/white box. If your rim is pure carbon then I would say DON'T USE 3M FAST TACK. You never know what it will do to the carbon fiber epoxy and ultimately the bonding.
4. Finally, put another thin bead of glue onto the rim and mount your tire working first from the valve hole all around being careful to center the tire on the rim. Don't use too much glue as it will seep out from under the tire and onto the rim. Then pump your tires up to 100 psi and let dry. If you have access to a truing stand you can mount your wheel on it to check the positioning of your mount to see if the tire is centered. Otherwise, re-mount your wheels on your bike and double check the centering there if you have time.

Good Luck.

Gregory.

[coylifut]

but if there ever was an endoresement for clinchers, this thread is it.


That said, someday I'll try cementing with you guys.

that's why I'm from the camp that tubulars are event only tires for me. The difference in weight between a 404 clincher and 404 tubular (including the tires) is a full pound and it makes a real difference on an uphill tt and sprinting out of corners. i don't think there's ever a case where I would use a clincher on the track (even while training). Cross is another situation where the tire, run at extremely low psi, acts as your suspension. Plus, a tubular tire contours to the slope of the terrain and allows you to use a tire with far less tread which is much faster.

However, as far as general every day riding goes and most road races, no I don't use tubulars. I can't speak for Too Tall, but maybe he has more time than folks with a house full of kids and their just as important schedule.

[catulle]

but if there ever was an endoresement for clinchers, this thread is it.
That said, someday I'll try cementing with you guys.

Ok, have you heard of those machines with goggles for cyber-sex? That's like clinchers. Have you heard of the real thing? That's like tubulars. Try it, you'll like it. :beer:

[coylifut]

Ok, have you heard of those machines with goggles for cyber-sex? That's like clinchers. Have you heard of the real thing? That's like tubulars. Try it, you'll like it. :beer:

I'm currently riding conti competition tubies and they don't ride any better than the best clinchers. In fact, I rode em in a tt on saturday and on sunday I did a road race on a set of those attack/force tires and the first thing that came to mind is that those particular clinchers ride more like the good tubulars of days gone by than the competitions.

and then there's the whole changing the tire on the road thing. there's no one who can change a tubular tire in the field faster than i can change a clincher. at least not one i've glued on.

oh and it really scares me that you've tried those goggles.

:no: : ;) :beer: :banana:

[Too Tall]

Bag party. :)

As Mr. Roberts was fond of saying "AT EASE AT EASE". It's all good...now settle down so we can enjoy the mellow buzz of toluene.

Buzz kill.

Friends don't let friend ride clinchers or not.

[catulle]

oh and it really scares me that you've tried those goggles.
:no: : ;) :beer: :banana:

You scare easy. Go back and read it again, I said, have you heard about so and so... By the way, now that you mention it, what ever happened to that kind'a stuff...? I wonder if the goggles actually exist. Hmmm, might be worth giving it a go, ain't it...? :)

[Too Tall]

Look what happened to Woody Allen :rolleyes:

Anywho, what's s3x got to do with tubular tyres? Oh. Geeze, forget I said that.

[catulle]

Look what happened to Woody Allen :rolleyes:

Anywho, what's s3x got to do with tubular tyres? Oh. Geeze, forget I said that.
.

[Grant McLean]

I'm currently riding conti competition tubies and they don't ride any better than the best clinchers.

I was a long time conti competition user. They ride like crap on the road,
but they are durable. You shouldn't ever have a flat. I rode them down
to the nylon casing, and finally had one let go pumping it up. I had worn
right though the tread, through about 4 of the plys in the casing, and the
tube came through and finally popped. That 5 Ply casing is durable!

If you want a sweet ride, try the veloflex or Deda Olympico, in terms of
feel, they blow the socks off the competitions. IMHO

g

[chrisroph]

I'm currently riding conti competition tubies and they don't ride any better than the best clinchers.
:no: : ;) :beer: :banana:


T, they ride a lot better than any clincher if you only pump them up to 120. You were running those at about 150 and they ride like doodoo at that pressure.

[Big Dan]

Well finally got a hole on my Tufo's.....How wide can I go on my GL330's?
For sure need to go wider than 21......... :)

[bostondrunk]

I think a lot of you are way overdoing it on the glue job. Over the past 10 years, using conti sprinters and conti comps, all I do is spread half a tube of glue onto the rim, wait 5-10 minutes, and pull the tire on (toes over rim method). pump up tire, center it, leave it over night. Thats it.
No wonder you guys have so much trouble changing a flat. Five layers of glue???
Half a tube of glue. I've never had one roll, and they are still somewhat difficult to pull off the rim.

[coylifut]

T, they ride a lot better than any clincher if you only pump them up to 120. You were running those at about 150 and they ride like doodoo at that pressure.

i had exactly 120 in em, i pumped em myself

[Hardlyrob]

Between Bostondrunk and GCconie, they have it all down. I've been riding tubbies since 1978, raced hard for a lot of years, and probably 60,000 miles on tubbies in total. I've never rolled a tire, and never seen a tire rolled.

Pre stretch the tires - it doesn't matter if the rim is clean or not, the tire won't stick much. I use Bostondrunk's method 1/2 to 3/4 tube of rim cement - it doesn't seem to matter much which brand (3M fast tack and weld wood also work really well - but no experience with carbon fiber, only aluminum) - I've used them all tubasti, clement, wolber etc. It doesn't matter, the clement red stuff is just more obvious if you've done a bad glue job. Cement on, wait 2-10 minutes and stretch the tire using toes and fingers - usually in the lawn to keep the mess down - I usually leave it a little wet to make centering easier. Latex gloves are a really good idea, or you're wearing the rim cement for a few days. Inflate to 80-100psi, and they are ready to ride the next day. Rim cement build up on the rim seems to be a positive thing - especially when you change a flat in the rain - a little security.

I ride about 1,000 miles a year and get a flat about every other year with tubbies. The feel of tubbies and the reduced rotational mass make a big difference in the ride quality and acceleration. If you haven't tried tubbies, you need to. I'm riding a set of mavic gl330's 28 spoke in front, 32 rear, that are quick, light and responsive. I'm 5'10, 170lbs. give it a shot, they're a different feel.

Rob H.

[coylifut]

Hey Rob, thanks for the comments. The problem here is exclusive to carbon rims. The first gluing takes several thin layers to ensure the glue adheres to the carbon. I for one have seen tubulars roll. Not often, but both of them resulted in serious injuries to very experienced cyclists. Alloy rims are a different story all together.

Between Bostondrunk and GCconie, they have it all down. I've been riding tubbies since 1978, raced hard for a lot of years, and probably 60,000 miles on tubbies in total. I've never rolled a tire, and never seen a tire rolled.

Pre stretch the tires - it doesn't matter if the rim is clean or not, the tire won't stick much. I use Bostondrunk's method 1/2 to 3/4 tube of rim cement - it doesn't seem to matter much which brand (3M fast tack and weld wood also work really well - but no experience with carbon fiber, only aluminum) - I've used them all tubasti, clement, wolber etc. It doesn't matter, the clement red stuff is just more obvious if you've done a bad glue job. Cement on, wait 2-10 minutes and stretch the tire using toes and fingers - usually in the lawn to keep the mess down - I usually leave it a little wet to make centering easier. Latex gloves are a really good idea, or you're wearing the rim cement for a few days. Inflate to 80-100psi, and they are ready to ride the next day. Rim cement build up on the rim seems to be a positive thing - especially when you change a flat in the rain - a little security.

I ride about 1,000 miles a year and get a flat about every other year with tubbies. The feel of tubbies and the reduced rotational mass make a big difference in the ride quality and acceleration. If you haven't tried tubbies, you need to. I'm riding a set of mavic gl330's 28 spoke in front, 32 rear, that are quick, light and responsive. I'm 5'10, 170lbs. give it a shot, they're a different feel.

Rob H.

[Hardlyrob]

Hey Coylfit;

It sounds like the issue is with the tires vs. the carbon rims (based on what has been described in this thread). Indeed the Conti sprinters do seem to shrink when the base tape is glued more than others. The only recommendation I have for those is to stretch on a relatively clean set of rims, pre-glue and dry the base coats, re-stretch (contact cement shouldn't set up without a base layer to stick to), and mount rather quickly. I would recommend a wet mount as 11.4 suggested to make both mounting and centering easier. Give 'em a day or two, and they should be good to ride.

Are you sure the diameters of the rims are the same? - not all are - a centemeter here or there makes a BIG difference.

Good luck...Rob H.

p.s. I guess I've been lucky to not experience, or see a rolled tubbie in a lot of years. Granted, I stopped racing in the late 1980's, so it's been a while.

[Louis]

if there ever was an endoresement for clinchers, this thread is it.

Kevan, how dare you, a clincher person, trespass on a tubular thread?

Also, you ought to know by now that the degree of improvement a tubular provides is directly proportional to the hassle of using it :D

[Gothard]

Well, all that talk about superior confort and handling has got to me. After a 15+ year hiatus, I have just bought a set of Campy/Mavic wheels, with Continental sprinter tubulars.
My last time on tubulars ended with a front tire coming unglued at 45mph descending a mountain pass. These were obviously poorly glued by my ignorant (pre-internet instant information) self.

The tubies will complement nicely the Hors, once I get to assemble it. :)