VaMoots vs Merlin Extra Lite

[velomateo]

I would like to hear your thoughts. I'm considering a Ti bike, and there are two prospects I've found. Moots VaMoots and Merlin Extra Lite. Both bikes are a good size for me and are priced within a couple hundred bucks of each other.
Both bikes appear to be approximately the same age, since they both are equipped with Dura Ace 7700 STI groups.

Anyone have experience with either or both frames. I'm looking for a comfortable and durable frameset. I did the BWR this year and intend to go back next year to improve on my miserable time. I would also like to be able to fit 28mm tires. Both bikes are classic geometry. Not sure if they have 1 1/8 steer tube, sellers are checking.

[msl819]

If one had a 1" headtube and the other a 1 1/8" I would lean heavily towards the 1 1/8". But that's just me. I had an Merlin EL and it was a great bike but I would assume the Moots would be as well. Any chance you could actually put in enough miles on both to make a decision based off your preference vs. that of others?

[velomateo]

If one had a 1" headtube and the other a 1 1/8" I would lean heavily towards the 1 1/8". But that's just me. I had an Merlin EL and it was a great bike but I would assume the Moots would be as well. Any chance you could actually put in enough miles on both to make a decision based off your preference vs. that of others?

I doubt it. They're listed on craigslist and I wouldn't expect either seller to be cool with someone taking their bike out for the day. Plus, both bikes would need to be set up differently from how they currently sit.

I am hopping that one or both have the larger steer tube. It opens up loads more fork options.

Do you recall the tire clearance on either?

[msl819]

I doubt it. They're listed on craigslist and I wouldn't expect either seller to be cool with someone taking their bike out for the day. Plus, both bikes would need to be set up differently from how they currently sit.

I am hopping that one or both have the larger steer tube. It opens up loads more fork options.

Do you recall the tire clearance on either?

I don't... but that was back before larger tires were a thing to consider. However, the opening up of fork options as well as bar/stems would be a significant factor for me. High quality 1" carbon forks are getting hard to come by especially if you need much steerer tube. My Merlin had a 1" Reynolds Ouzo Pro, but again, I acquired that fork as the industry was shifting to 1 1/8". Now there are tapered steerers and the such.

I realize that a CL seller might not let you have a full day with the bike but I would think that a reasonable test ride would not be out of the question - never hurts to ask if they are local. Also, does the fact that Moots is still in business matter to you at all if there ever was an issue with the frame?

[velomateo]

Also, does the fact that Moots is still in business matter to you at all if there ever was an issue with the frame?

It does, that's a good point.

[velomateo]

Just heard back from the Merlin seller, 1 inch steer tube.

I also found a Lynskey R230 that looks like it might fit. I think I'm between a M and M/L. This one's a M/L. I don't like being on the bottom end of the size chart on bikes though, and I think that's what I would be on the Lynskey.

[oldpotatoe]

Just heard back from the Merlin seller, 1 inch steer tube.

I also found a Lynskey R230 that looks like it might fit. I think I'm between a M and M/L. This one's a M/L. I don't like being on the bottom end of the size chart on bikes though, and I think that's what I would be on the Lynskey.

Get the Moots....

[velomateo]

Get the Moots....

I knew there would be a SOLID recommendation coming.

I'm leaning that way too, just really hoping it has the 1/ 1/8 steer tube.

Are you familiar with frame decal vs model year? This one says MOOTS Cycles.

[happycampyer]

Get the Moots....

Beat me to it. Especially if the prices are within a few hundred dollars of each other. If the Merlin were half the price, I might consider it.

[weisan]

I have several bikes with 1 inch steerer tube. It never bothers me. Forget the name on the downtube, test ride if possible. Titanium is just another material for building bikes, there's no magic pixel dust in it.

[colbyh]

Merlin frames don't usually resell within the same range as Moots, so either the Merlin is very overpriced or the Moots is severely underpriced. Either way I'd go with the Moots, even over the Lynskey.

[velomateo]

Merlin frames don't usually resell within the same range as Moots, so either the Merlin is very overpriced or the Moots is severely underpriced. Either way I'd go with the Moots, even over the Lynskey.

I agree, the Merlin is a bit over priced...and the Moots is a very good deal.

[PNW]

I agree, the Merlin is a bit over priced...and the Moots is a very good deal.

Sounds like your decision has been made! Go with the Moots.

[colbyh]

I agree, the Merlin is a bit over priced...and the Moots is a very good deal.

that's a super easy choice then. and if it's an older frame and/or you want a new fork for it Moots is blowing these out: https://moots.myshopify.com/collections/forks/products/moots-road-fork?variant=212021121

I just bought one - no complaints.

[tuscanyswe]

I think price wise there isent a lot between the frames in terms of value on 1" steerertube modells. The extralite has a nice following looking for specifily that version as its somewhat iconic while most looking for a moots would be wanting the 11/8 or later versions.

The fact that it says MOOTScycles on the decals make it very likely it also has a 1" headtube. But not a certainty, seen at least one with those decals while beeing 11/8 tho that decal may have been applied later ofc.

I have both a merlin and a moots so I'm not biased btw .)

[alancw3]

imho there is no comparison. moots all the way.

[Hilltopperny]

The titanium bikes I've owned with 1" head tubed were great all day riding bikes. The extralight vs vamoots is a tough call as they are both top end well crafted bikes, but as far as resale and brand loyalty go the moots wins.

I've never owned a moots, but those that do really love them. The extralight is still a great bike and if I'm not mistaken were originally designed by Tom Kellogg. I used to have a merlin xlm and it was the best riding hardtail I have ever owned. Go for a test ride on both if possible and then decide which bike feels better to you.

[commonguy001]

The geometry on the older Vamoots frames makes for one of my favorite riding road frames of all time. It's just so good.

The new ones are fine too, just different and I've put a ton of miles on both versions.

If it were me I'd just get the Moots. I'm sure the Merlin is a nice but but a Vamoots is really good too.

[velomateo]

The geometry on the older Vamoots frames makes for one of my favorite riding road frames of all time. It's just so good.

The new ones are fine too, just different and I've put a ton of miles on both versions.

If it were me I'd just get the Moots. I'm sure the Merlin is a nice but but a Vamoots is really good too.

It's nice to get so many testimonials from actual owners, even better from one that has ridden this particular era VaMoots.

Just confirmed with the seller it's a 1 inch steer tube, would have preferred the larger one. I had concerns about tire clearance for 28's, but he sent good pics of front and rear, and it looks ample at both ends. The fork appears to have enough steer tube showing for me as well. So I'm going to take a look tomorrow.

[Matthew]

I own a Moots Compact, 2009 version. Also have a Serotta Meivici and a Colnago EPS. Both carbon and both fantastic bikes. If I had to keep only one, it would be the Moots. Just surpassed the 19,000 mile mark on it yesterday. Still rides and looks like new. Get the Moots.

[texbike]

I have both a Merlin and a Vamoots now. The Merlin is a great bike - it rides wonderfully and is beautifully finished. However, I would pick the Vamoots over it any day. I've had a LOT of bikes over the years and the Moots has been my favorite of them all. The ride, build quality, and aesthetic just does it for me. Moots takes it to a different level.

Texbike

[merckxman]

I purposefully have not read the previous posts so I can give an unbiased opinion about the Merlin Extra Light. I bought one new (about 2000/2001), kind of my dream bike at the time. Hated it. It was the only bike I have owned that was jittery. Tried a new fork, different manufacturer, same thing. After two months of trying to love it I gave up and sold it. I weighed about 185 lbs at the time...maybe underbuilt for that weight? I know people that have loved theirs and I've also heard of cracked Extra Lights.

[velomateo]

I have both a Merlin and a Vamoots now. The Merlin is a great bike - it rides wonderfully and is beautifully finished. However, I would pick the Vamoots over it any day. I've had a LOT of bikes over the years and the Moots has been my favorite of them all. The ride, build quality, and aesthetic just does it for me. Moots takes it to a different level.

Texbike

Thanks Tex, I'm hoping to have the same results.

[jds108]

I have an extralight with a 1" steerer. Great bike, full stop. Only issue is that the headtube is short, so if you're not able to ride a bike in a bit of a racer-type position, it'll be difficult to get the bars low. (This is a problem for me now as I've gotten fat...)

[Jeff N.]

I've owned both. Sold the Merlin. Kept the Vamoots. The ride is superior and the welds look like they were laid by the hand of God.

[nighthawk]

I had a Vamoots from that era (1" head tube, old decals).. and it was a wonderful ride. I got a good deal on mine, so sent it off to Moots for a refurbish: fresh bead blast, new decals and head badge. Cost about $300-400 if I remember correctly. There weren't a ton of options at the time for 1" steerer carbon forks.. but I picked up a Columbus minimal which mated nicely to the Vamoots, aesthetically and in ride quality. I ended up using a shim to allow for use of a 1.125 stem.. and that worked out fine, as well. That bike was real blast to ride.

I've never ridden the Merlin.. but I could wholeheartedly recommend that Vamoots... and can't imagine you'd be disappointed.

If it was me.. to be honest.. unless saving the $$ is a big factor.. I'd hold out for a vamoots with the 1.125 steerer. Could probably get one around $2000. I imagine the one you are looking at is probably half that, though.

[velomateo]

If it was me.. to be honest.. unless saving the $$ is a big factor.. I'd hold out for a vamoots with the 1.125 steerer. Could probably get one around $2000. I imagine the one you are looking at is probably half that, though.

$$$ is always a big factor. I would love to find a 1.125 model, but doubtful it would be this cheep. At $2K, I'm assuming you're meaning just the frame right?

[nighthawk]

$$$ is always a big factor. I would love to find a 1.125 model, but doubtful it would be this cheep. At $2K, I'm assuming you're meaning just the frame right?

Yeah.. don't quote me on that, but I've seen them for around $2K, give or take. One I was looking at recently was $2100 with the stock fork.

[velomateo]

Yeah.. don't quote me on that, but I've seen them for around $2K, give or take. One I was looking at recently was $2100 with the stock fork.

That seems like a good estimate.

I'm going to take drive and see the Moots tomorrow, I'll see it how it fits and go from there.

[commonguy001]

$$$ is always a big factor. I would love to find a 1.125 model, but doubtful it would be this cheep. At $2K, I'm assuming you're meaning just the frame right?

My first Vamoots is from 2003 and i picked it up for 1000 shipped and it was pretty much perfect. That was 2006 though. I did take a shot from a buick on it so its got a dinged seat stay now but its still straight.

Regarding head tubes - the older ones are shorter. My 57.5 is under 160mm where my 2014 is 170 on a 58 with the same TT length.

[roguedog]

The geometry on the older Vamoots frames makes for one of my favorite riding road frames of all time. It's just so good.

The new ones are fine too, just different and I've put a ton of miles on both versions.

Can you or someone comment on this? I've heard this from many folks .. what's the diff and why did they change?

[commonguy001]

Can you or someone comment on this? I've heard this from many folks .. what's the diff and why did they change?

I think they did a couple iterations of the new geometry on them starting in 2013 if I'm not mistaken (I was it was 2010). Longer stays, more road sport geometry with a slacker HTA and longer head tube. 2014 saw them drop the BB another few mm and add more slope to the TT.

They probably did it to make an actual difference between it and the Vamoots CR as they used to be very similar. I bet if you were looking for that quick and tight handling the old Vamoots had the CR would be the ticket now.

Saying that, I'm just a fan and owner. I bet O.P. Would have better insight having been a dealer and also owning at least one.

[Bob Ross]

Either way I'd go with the Moots, especially over the Lynskey.

ftfy :banana:

[happycampyer]

Not sure what changes were made to geometry more recently, but iirc there was a small tweak to the geometry in 2006 (small increase in headtube height but no changes to angles, etc.), and a bigger revamp in 2010. Prior to 2010, the VaMoots and Compact shared the same geometry, the only difference being the slope of the toptube (level vs. sloping). In 2010, the models split. The VaMoots got a taller headtube and a few other tweaks, the CR was essentially the successor to the old VaMoots and Compact in terms of geometry, and the RSL was introduced, with even racier geometry than the CR.

If the frame you are looking at was built in 2005 or earlier (which, if it has a 1" headtube then it would have been), the geometry is probably similar to the 2006-2010 geometry, but with a slightly shorter headtube (.5 - 1cm depending on size, iirc).

[velomateo]

Thanks to everyone that provided input on this thread. I did pick up the Moots yesterday and I felt like I should at least post a photo or two. I am super excited about this build. I test fit my wheels with 27mm Vittoria Pave tires, and there's plenty of room - which is awesome.

The bike currently has a 9 speed Dura Ace group and FSA cockpit, and new Vuelta wheels. That will be swapped out soon enough, I have to move a few things around between bikes.

Another bonus was meeting the seller, Benny. Super nice guy and total vintage bike geek. His collection was amazing, and I don't think I saw half of it. He has a matching, his & hers, set of Bruce Gordon's that were just gorgeous. Great color, with full vintage Campy with Rally long cage RD. He wants to sell too, so if your looking for a set of 56's for you and misses. I hope to see him at Eroica next year, he has plenty of concourse ready bikes.

Here's a couple picks of the Va Moots.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff297/velomateo/2011%20race%20pics/732B5FBA-7A1D-427A-8DB0-F20E73F8FF22_zpsvohoydkd.jpg (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/velomateo/media/2011%20race%20pics/732B5FBA-7A1D-427A-8DB0-F20E73F8FF22_zpsvohoydkd.jpg.html)

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff297/velomateo/2011%20race%20pics/6A8F03AB-BE7E-42B6-A3F1-A76CEA921C8A_zpsdktotlss.jpg (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/velomateo/media/2011%20race%20pics/6A8F03AB-BE7E-42B6-A3F1-A76CEA921C8A_zpsdktotlss.jpg.html)

[Clean39T]

Chapeau!! :hello: :beer: :hello:

That is one stunning frame and should look great with whatever you hang on it.

Do be sure to start a thread over in the image gallery and keep us up to date

[tuscanyswe]

Real nice!!

Is that a reynolds fork on there? I think it looks like the reynolds "R" but i cant recall ever seeing a reynolds fork with red decals before. Fill me in

[velomateo]

Chapeau!! :hello: :beer: :hello:

That is one stunning frame and should look great with whatever you hang on it.

Do be sure to start a thread over in the image gallery and keep us up to date

A build thread is a definite. I'll photograph the frame once I have it stripped down. I would like to get the fork color matched, either by Moots (if they offer that) or locally.

[velomateo]

Real nice!!

Is that a reynolds fork on there? I think it looks like the reynolds "R" but i cant recall ever seeing a reynolds fork with red decals before. Fill me in

Reynolds fork. There's an "R" and an "F" on there, so I'm not sure which model. Red and white graphic is under the clear coat.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff297/velomateo/2011%20race%20pics/916377AA-207F-4558-BFCB-EA397D4B9A68_zpsjfcgpwgj.jpg (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/velomateo/media/2011%20race%20pics/916377AA-207F-4558-BFCB-EA397D4B9A68_zpsjfcgpwgj.jpg.html)

[tuscanyswe]

Thanks interesting. How come i never saw this before i wonder, id think its pretty rare.

[velomateo]

Thanks interesting. How come i never saw this before i wonder, id think its pretty rare.

I haven't seen one before either. I thought maybe this was a fork that was available through Moots only.

[Jeff N.]

OK, now, strip the old decals, get on MOOTS site, and order a new set. Better yet, send it in and have them bead-blast everything (not free...) . Jeff N.

[velomateo]

OK, now, strip the old decals, get on MOOTS site, and order a new set. Better yet, send it in and have them bead-blast everything (not free...) . Jeff N.

I'm considering that, but wonder if loosing the old decals would be bad. They have character.

[velomateo]

Reynolds fork. There's an "R" and an "F" on there, so I'm not sure which model. Red and white graphic is under the clear coat.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff297/velomateo/2011%20race%20pics/916377AA-207F-4558-BFCB-EA397D4B9A68_zpsjfcgpwgj.jpg (http://s238.photobucket.com/user/velomateo/media/2011%20race%20pics/916377AA-207F-4558-BFCB-EA397D4B9A68_zpsjfcgpwgj.jpg.html)

Fork was OEM fork from a Felt. That explains the F.

[Clean39T]

I'm considering that, but wonder if loosing the old decals would be bad. They have character.


I agree with keeping the old ones if they're in good condition..

[tuscanyswe]

Fork was OEM fork from a Felt. That explains the F.


Ah yes that explains why i had not noticed one before.

https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/OkMAAOSwR29ZK4Gb/s-l225.jpg

[velomateo]

I agree with keeping the old ones if they're in good condition..

They are all in very good condition, especially if you consider the frame is probably from around 2000.

[mktng]

Moots road 1-1/8th road fork is currently on sale!

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[velomateo]

Ah yes that explains why i had not noticed one before.

https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/OkMAAOSwR29ZK4Gb/s-l225.jpg

Haha, we found the same pic.

[velomateo]

Moots road 1-1/8th road fork is currently on sale!

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

This frame has the 1" steer tube. Thx.

[happycampyer]

I like the period-correct, old-style graphics on that frame, especially the "handwritten" Vamoots decal, and the "In Moots We Trust" decal. If Moots still has those decals, I would get them reapplied if you refinished the frame.

Nice find. It's amazing how timeless those frames are.

[velomateo]

I like the period-correct, old-style graphics on that frame, especially the "handwritten" Vamoots decal, and the "In Moots We Trust" decal. If Moots still has those decals, I would get them reapplied if you refinished the frame.

Nice find. It's amazing how timeless those frames are.

From what I read on their website regarding the refinishing program, it looks like the current decals are what's available. As much as I would like this frame to regain the brilliance it probably once had, I would hate to loose that "In Moots we trust" flag. It's in excellent condition.
Did some searching today and found a site with a serial number graph for Moots. It looks like this frame is from 1996. Pretty sweet condition for 21 years old, and yes it's amazing how subtle the changes have been to this model during that time. Great design from the start.

[cadence90]

Thanks to everyone that provided input on this thread. I did pick up the Moots yesterday....
Fantastic! It looks great.

A build thread is a definite. I'll photograph the frame once I have it stripped down. I would like to get the fork color matched, either by Moots (if they offer that) or locally.
If you want the fork to match the ti, this is the color code for the silver Moots use to paint their forks:

DuPont W9658 Platinum Metallic or equivalent.

OK, now, strip the old decals, get on MOOTS site, and order a new set. Better yet, send it in and have them bead-blast everything (not free...) . Jeff N.
Completely disagree.

I'm considering that, but wonder if loosing the old decals would be bad. They have character.
Completely agree.

I agree with keeping the old ones if they're in good condition..
Completely agree.

I like the period-correct, old-style graphics on that frame, especially the "handwritten" Vamoots decal, and the "In Moots We Trust" decal. If Moots still has those decals, I would get them reapplied if you refinished the frame.

Nice find. It's amazing how timeless those frames are.
Completely agree.

[velomateo]

@cadence90 Thank you for that paint code. You probably just saved me hours of searching.

[cadence90]

@cadence90 Thank you for that paint code. You probably just saved me hours of searching.

You're very welcome. That is definitely the code.

Moots don't sell replacement decals for forks, because those are all painted on. Even if they did, they would be the new, slanted style, which would look odd with your frame.

If I were you, I would keep the original decals, and have the fork painted/cleared with no decals.

EDIT: What you could do is ask Kayla or Jeremiah at Moots to send you a couple of small black (they don't make green anymore) "Mr. Moots" decals, to place on the fork down near the dropouts, under the clear. That would look great.

http://www.b-m-b.be/uploads/profile/photo-thumb-3909.jpg

That's really a lovely frame. Congratulations.

[54ny77]

Toss a coin: heads get the Moots, tails don't get the Merlin!

;)

[velomateo]

Toss a coin: heads get the Moots, tails don't get the Merlin!

;)

Done

[velomateo]

You're very welcome. That is definitely the code.

Moots don't sell replacement decals for forks, because those are all painted on. Even if they did, they would be the new, slanted style, which would look odd with your frame.

If I were you, I would keep the original decals, and have the fork painted/cleared with no decals.

EDIT: What you could do is ask Kayla or Jeremiah at Moots to send you a couple of small black (they don't make green anymore) "Mr. Moots" decals, to place on the fork down near the dropouts, under the clear. That would look great.

http://www.b-m-b.be/uploads/profile/photo-thumb-3909.jpg

That's really a lovely frame. Congratulations.

Thanks, that's what I was thinking too. I thought I would have to order the personal name decals, trim the Mr. Moots off then use on the forks. On the website the name decals have the green Mr Moots. I'll call and check.

[happycampyer]

,snip>
EDIT: What you could do is ask Kayla or Jeremiah at Moots to send you a couple of small black (they don't make green anymore) "Mr. Moots" decals, to place on the fork down near the dropouts, under the clear. That would look great.

http://www.b-m-b.be/uploads/profile/photo-thumb-3909.jpgHere's the fork I had painted back in 2010 for my (now sold) RSL, which has "ghost" decals of Mr. Moots on either side of the crown. It's not a decal, but a two-color paint job.

https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-TqfVX5g/0/e7ca0ce1/XL/i-TqfVX5g-XL.jpg

[cadence90]

Here's the fork I had painted back in 2010 for my (now sold) RSL, which has "ghost" decals of Mr. Moots on either side of the crown. It's not a decal, but a two-color paint job.

Very nice.

Thanks, that's what I was thinking too. I thought I would have to order the personal name decals, trim the Mr. Moots off then use on the forks. On the website the name decals have the green Mr Moots. I'll call and check.

Ha ha! I asked the same thing. They won't sell the green Mr. Moots separately; you have to buy the entire name decal if you want green.

Here was Kayla's reply:
"These are made for us by another company. The gator and the name are one and the same. You are welcome to get the name decal though, I am sure I could have our decal maker just not print the name. It would be the same price."

$40 for two green decals was too rich for me. Kayla mailed me 2 black ones for free. That was more like it. :banana:

I think black would look better on your fork anyway.

[velomateo]

That fork looks really good. I like ghost decals too. I am definitely wanting to get the fork painted, Mr Moots or not.

$40 is a little steep for two decals.