The importance of intervals

[saab2000]

This morning I got dropped on the fast Tuesday morning ride here in VA Beach. It is not really a hammerfest, but is not slow either.

I have not raced in 10 years now (work.....) but feel the need for speed still.

The speeds on this ride do not reach 30 miles per hour, but awful close. It seems like I can go all day at 26 or 27, but as soon as someone surges at the front to 29 or so I am in trouble.

I was so PO'd that I went for another loop in a smallish gear and did 3 very hard intervals. I gotta start doing the stuff that is making the legs burn.

For the active racers out there, how disciplined are you guys? What sort of program are you following?

In the past 10 years I have gained probably 25 lbs. It is coming off slowly now, but there is a long way to go. The legs burn and the humidity and heat is something I have not yet adapted to here.

I want to not only hang in on these rides, but lead the way. Somedays I have hung in no problem, but today I was in trouble when I saw the speed hit 29.5 on the old Cateye. Weak.

Do you guys do intervals? or is racing a big part of your training?

[catulle]

This morning I got dropped on the fast Tuesday morning ride here in VA Beach. It is not really a hammerfest, but is not slow either.

I have not raced in 10 years now (work.....) but feel the need for speed still.

The speeds on this ride do not reach 30 miles per hour, but awful close. It seems like I can go all day at 26 or 27, but as soon as someone surges at the front to 29 or so I am in trouble.

I was so PO'd that I went for another loop in a smallish gear and did 3 very hard intervals. I gotta start doing the stuff that is making the legs burn.

For the active racers out there, how disciplined are you guys? What sort of program are you following?

In the past 10 years I have gained probably 25 lbs. It is coming off slowly now, but there is a long way to go. The legs burn and the humidity and heat is something I have not yet adapted to here.

I want to not only hang in on these rides, but lead the way. Somedays I have hung in no problem, but today I was in trouble when I saw the speed hit 29.5 on the old Cateye. Weak.

Do you guys do intervals? or is racing a big part of your training?

You'll never loose those 25lbs riding at 26mph. To burn fat you must ride at 65% or so of your VO2 max; meaning: At you age, you must ride at some 25kph. And I'm serious. Otherwise, well, sometime it is easy to understand Floyd, et al, atmo. ;)

[saab2000]

You'll never loose those 25lbs riding at 26mph. To burn fat you must ride at 65% or so of your VO2 max; meaning: At you age, you must ride at some 25kph. And I'm serious. Otherwise, well, sometime it is easy to understand Floyd, et al, atmo. ;)

You are right. But diet will ultimately be more important than riding. Making a bit of progress on that front.

[Fat Robert]

I do a lot of threshold work. I'll do 2 VO2 sessions a week for three weeks, but that's it. I haven't tried doing 1-2 minute intervals in the last few years, because being an old fart with a full time job makes VO2 stressfull enough -- I get close to overtrained after three weeks of that stuff.

So, I leave anything over VO2 intensity up to just racing.

[swoop]

actually.. you lose weight by burning more calories than you are eating and by stoking your metabolism by eating correctly (protien) and every three hours or so.

there are many types of intervals. from riding at a 50 cadence in your 53x12 to doing spin-ups sprints for leg speed at about 160 cadence in your 39x 23... and everything inbetween.. from 90 second puke intervals at max with varying and specific amounts of rest to 20 minute ones at threshold. you can go by wattage or heart rate zone. every one of them is a specific exercize. the recovery in between is what makes you fast.

the thing is... this isn't the time of year for that.
all i can say is read friel. look into periodization.
if you just start blindly doing 'intervals' you are just going to stay slow. sit on the back of that group ride. the season is effectively over and you can tell who the fast guys are because this is when they start to go slow.
do a google search on periodization and get that friel book or a simple coaching program.

think of your fitness as a pyramid you are building. you have to lay down the big fat stones at the bottom.. this is called base. you build 3 layers of base. and then you go into the build phase. another three layers. and then race (the pointy top)...
and then learning your body to know how often you can peak, how to detune and retune to a higher peak.. just takes experience.
so even if you just want to make the surges.. you gotta have that nice base.
(i am oversimplifying to make it easy to digest and i am leaving out the idea of maintaining intsensity throughout the year.. one step at a time).

[fiamme red]

the season is effectively over and you can tell who the fast guys are because this is when they start to go slow.You mean the preseason is effectively over atmo.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=240273&postcount=1

[EdK]

Hi Saab

Agree with Swoop and others length and type of intervals depends on what you want to improve. They do make a tremendous difference when riding at or above AT or FTP (depending on whether you subscribe to HR or Power based training). There are many sources of info depending on training objectives and methodologies my suggestion is to read Cogan (I am power biased). Time trials and extended excursions at or above (AT or FTP) require longer intervals 10-20+ minutes while quick recovery and high speed surge improvements can be made with shorter 1-3 minute efforts. keep in mind though it is tough to keep an interval regimen going for more than 3-5 weeks at a time.

My last intervals of the year were last Saturday but I have two more races... but the season is really over... If the guys going fast now keep going fast through the winter they won't be fast in the Spring!

cheers... and good luck.

[saab2000]

Total tool talking here, but there was a day long ago (15 years ago) when I coulda probably just ridden away from these guys. A short burst at 33 or 34 MPH and then just keep a gap. But I am 39 now and overweight by racing standards and not able to ride 6 days a week and haven't raced for a long time.

Priorities:

1. Lose weight (mostly through diet, which is a weak point with me)
2. Work at different intensities of riding, i.e. lsd, intervals, sprints, etc.
3. Actually enter a race again.

One of my problems is the fact that riding is sort of irregular. I would love to ride 6 days a week, but I just can't. So I am forced to run on the other days and that is a mixed blessing. Good in some ways, but it kills speed and makes the muscles sore.

I'll keep going on the Fat Frog's rides at 0730 every morning I can. They are good rides. The best I have found in the VA Beach area so far.

If someone can point me to some better ones I am open for suggestion.

[swoop]

Total tool talking here, but there was a day long ago (15 years ago) when I coulda probably just ridden away from these guys. A short burst at 33 or 34 MPH and then just keep a gap. But I am 39 now and overweight by racing standards and not able to ride 6 days a week and haven't raced for a long time.

Priorities:

1. Lose weight (mostly through diet, which is a weak point with me)
2. Work at different intensities of riding, i.e. lsd, intervals, sprints, etc.
3. Actually enter a race again.

One of my problems is the fact that riding is sort of irregular. I would love to ride 6 days a week, but I just can't. So I am forced to run on the other days and that is a mixed blessing. Good in some ways, but it kills speed and makes the muscles sore.

I'll keep going on the Fat Frog's rides at 0730 every morning I can. They are good rides. The best I have found in the VA Beach area so far.

If someone can point me to some better ones I am open for suggestion.

at some point you have to come to terms with the idea that most group rides are really good at making you slow. you can build a program around your work schedule or you can just be one of those guys that's always in the way. i have yet to meet a person that wasn't fast "a few years ago".
you can be fast now.. it means a lot more. read one book. it will help.
it's easy to build a program that makes sense and is really good at keeping you slow year round. you are well on your way to fulfuling that goal. there is more out there for you.

memorize this word: periodization.

[saab2000]

Swoop,

Interesting thoughts. I do like the fast group rides because they are as close to racing as I get right now. But you have some good thoughts on this all.

I do appreciate it, though it is hard to accept sometimes.

Periodization, huh?

[bcm119]

Saab, if you haven't raced in 10 yrs you can race cat 4. A flat cat 4 crit will not kill you, I'll bet you could hang in just fine, and it would probably be more fun. Riding lots of aerobic miles with occasional tempo intervals, along with a weekly crit starting in April or so, will put you right in there. Just sayin'.

[shinomaster]

As a rule I tend to sprint up every small hill I come to as fast as I can...NOt proper intervals but it makes me fast up small hills!

[ada@prorider.or]

Priorities:

1. Lose weight (mostly through diet, which is a weak point with me)
2. Work at different intensities of riding, i.e. lsd, intervals, sprints, etc.
3. Actually enter a race again.

.


long ride´s at low hart rate ,
then slowly in time your speed goes up
the problem if gone do speed work most in the time you burn koolhydrate´s and you do not want that
so long ride´s 5 6 hours daily about 120-130 hart rate

then after month you gone be feel strong your selve and speed will come becuase you have stronger mucsle power
intervals in this level has hardly any long time effect

at least that my advise

[catulle]

long ride´s at low hart rate ,
then slowly in time your speed goes up
the problem if gone do speed work most in the time you burn koolhydrate´s and you do not want that
so long ride´s 5 6 hours daily about 120-130 hart rate

then after month you gone be feel strong your selve and speed will come becuase you have stronger mucsle power
intervals in this level has hardly any long time effect

at least that my advise

Word.

[EdK]

Saab

Again couldn't agree more with Swoop. Group rides will never get you as fit as a good plan that you stick to. I try to limit group rides to only days when I would have been racing as a race alternative. Otherwise read some books or get a coach develop a plan and stick to it. I was fast back in the day and now at 50 after an eight year racing vacation, I am racing again with the top West Coast old guys and winning on occasion with 12-15 hours a week total time on the bike..... You can do it!

[Fixed]

bro just do what got you to philly .
cheers .
bro saab knows more about racin than most of us.i.m.h.o

[saab2000]

Thanks Fixed! You are flattering. But what got me to Philly was being young and dumb.

I do know that the first thing that needs to happen is to get rid of the excess weight on the body. When I went to Philly I was about 155-160 lbs and already too heavy. My ideal weight then was around 150.

I am now around 180.

A lot will change when I get the weight off. Still, I am happy for all the comments, including those of Swoop, who apparently thrives on telling the truth and not just being glossy and friendly. I appreciate the honesty, even if it stings a bit.

[obtuse]

saab-
you know what to do. any pathetic moron can ride for six hours; it just involves getting enough lunch. getting "fast" requires that aerobic base that cees was speaking about, followed by specific work and intervals in given heart rate zones and at given cadences. if you just "ride" you'll be able to go 20mph for 125 miles. so what? if you don't ride you can do that too.

i think you're already at the point that cees is talking about. you want to be able to hang and follow the cat 1s and 2s....for that you need to
get on a program; hell dig up one of your own old programs from back when you were riding well and just cut it down to 80% in terms of time and do that. it'll come back quicker than you think.

obtuse

[gone]

saab-
you know what to do. any pathetic moron can ride for six hours; it just involves getting enough lunch.
obtuse
I feel exactly the same way. Anybody who rides less than me or slower than me has no reason to live much less be on a bicycle. Pathetic morons.

[Avispa]

i think you're already at the point that cees is talking about. you want to be able to hang and follow the cat 1s and 2s....for that you need to get on a program; hell dig up one of your own old programs from back when you were riding well and just cut it down to 80% in terms of time and do that. it'll come back quicker than you think.


Obtuse continues to be right! However, I don't know about this:

the thing is... this isn't the time of year for that

I don't think unless you are following a racing schedule, doing intervals at any time of the year is just fine. That is as long as you have the proper base. I mean, if you put your long steady rides base in the summer, what's wrong with doing intervals in the Fall or Winter? Again, you may be fast(er) than others at a time when others are not hammering, but you will be fast if you do the correct homework. Also remember, if you are still running, that ain't gonna help your speed on the bike, nada!

Anyway, Saab, you remind me of myself about five years ago when I hit 183+ I just can't see how doing sprints at this point is going to help any. You may catually get hurt!

Besides Cees and Obtuse's advice, I suggest you also take a look at the "getting old..." and "how old are you..." posts. ;)

[stevep]

saab,
you just need to do these rides on a regular basis.
it will come back plenty fast...
all the traveling around keeps you from a schedule that includes a couple of fast rides a week.
youll get back,
dont count me in the 5 hr ride camp though,
who has time and energy for that when you graduate into the working world?

[ada@prorider.or]

dont count me in the 5 hr ride camp though,
who has time and energy for that when you graduate into the working world?


he he ,its called determination

i rode six hours a day and still did 9 hours of normal working each day

[stevep]

works for you cees...but i see a lot of tired out guys who try to ride too much and end up both slower and worse off... its the jump that matters and 6 hr rides dont do it.
depends on what the end goal might be.
saab wants to be a motor of a local ride... he is not looking to win the us pro race of 125 miles.
he needs some speed, he does not need the world of endurance. imho.

[ada@prorider.or]

[QUOTE=stevep.
he needs some speed, he does not need the world of endurance. imho.[/QUOTE]


he also said that he wanted too loose weight!!!
that´s why you do not want to do too much speed work
this way he only gains weight
and with his sitting job won´t do him much good

[stevep]

the balance is difficult i agree.
to lose weight you have to control what goes in.
tough for siomeone on the road all the time.

the combo of 15 pounds less and some more fast rides and saab will once again be a bull.

[theprep]

Swoop,

Interesting thoughts. I do like the fast group rides because they are as close to racing as I get right now. But you have some good thoughts on this all.

I do appreciate it, though it is hard to accept sometimes.

Periodization, huh?

IMHO - Peaking once a year is for Armstrong. I want a program where I can win the Sunday World Championship each and every Sunday from March through October. :D

Is anyone else interested in a coaching plan for 35+dudes, 8-10 hrs/week max., includes 3 group rides per week with buds, keeps you SEMI-PEAKED for months on end, a little weight lifting to keep the opposite sex interested and mixes in some mountain biking? :confused:

Saab's original post struck a cord with me. We all train, but then life, work and family get in the way. You get back on the bike and now "what kind of ride do you do"? The macro, whole season plan thing kinda goes out the window. The plan might of called for a 12 hour week of tempo at 155.6 to 156.8 bpm and you got 2 hours in the log book!

Seriously though, I have read and followed Friel's book on Periodization. IMHO it took the fun out of riding. I think the majority of us do not have one huge yearly race event to peak for. Most of us just want to do well and not get dropped, when we get together with our cycling buddies and ride. Almost all the coaching information follows swoops guidelines and that is great for eaking out the last 10% of speed from our bodies for MAYBE a 1 or 2 week period. I know it applies to some guys but, but I think you have to give up too much in order to hit 100%.

[swoop]

because you aren't doing any endurance events.. your longest base ride would barely touch 3 hours. most of your work-outs could be 2.
if you feel you have the base already.... you can do intervals.
or you can sit in on the ride. spend your energy wisely. i just think with a little effort there is more for you.
if the goal is to be able to roll with the big boys.. you have to train like them until you get that strong. once you build that base... and get to the build phase.. you can stay there between build and race (i..e., fast enough to hurt folks on group rides) all year long.

once you do a winter of base you can cycle through being strong and doing intervals or godforbid using the group ride as intervals.

it's about applying a program to your reality.
as i read it .. he wants to lose weight and ride as a meaningful participant in the group ride and not just another guy who is buried when things barely get fast (sitting in at 28mph should be no big deal).
take this fine fall and winter and ride a base.. more or less.. have afun day built in every week but try and stay out of the red. then come december you can build... and then for the rest of the year you can stay in build and race form.. and you wont have to detune because you aren't doing 50 races a year.
it just sounds to me like you are too many years away from your last base.
this isn't rocket science and this is the most direct path to having the abiity to ride at the front in those rides.

atmo.

[Climb01742]

long ride´s at low hart rate ,
then slowly in time your speed goes up
the problem if gone do speed work most in the time you burn koolhydrate´s and you do not want that
so long ride´s 5 6 hours daily about 120-130 hart rate

to add to cees' point: someone who used to ride with tyler here during the winters said that tyler's daily winter ride was 100 miles at 18mph.

[Chris]

I'm with theprep on the 8 to 10 hours thing. No matter how much I sit down and plan a season to every single minute, the fact of the matter is that I am 36, have two kids who are getting old enough to have activities pretty regularly and want more of my interaction. Laying down 20 hour base weeks are great for focusing on one event or time of year, but they don't do much for you in the be fit year round category. There are a lot of meta-analysis type reviews of elite athlete training which shows that elite athletes tend to have some intensity year round. There was a good article on Pezcycling on this very topic. If you are going for the national championships or something like that, then it makes sense to me to follow a highly periodized program. If you are a regular schmo who wants to mix it up whenevef the gauntlet gets thrown down, then you need to be fit year round. You won't have the peaks as high possibly, but most of us are racing locally and not nationally. I think that an approach like Lemond's where you are training everything during a week's time is more realistic than training "systems" periodically year round. Flame away :)

[Fat Robert]

context: i'm a dog crap racer. i don't have much racing talent. the fact that i've done this since 1982 and still don't "see" a pack very well is proof of that. i am, however, a smart and effective trainer. my fitness is never the question.

i think you "fast all season" guys are dead wrong

the only guys i've seen who pull that off, are, in fact, talented races who are undertrained. they are naturally strong enough to follow a loose training plan and be competitive, not because they train effectively, but because they picked their parents well.

periodization does not mean inflexibility. i stopped keeping a training journal years ago. i know the concepts -- foundation, preparation, specialization, competition, transition. i know what plays out in each training block. i know that sometimes i have to flex things, because life gets in the way. right now, i'm doing a threshold block before one last vo2 block (Last race is october 15-16). I know that i need to get in 1-2 threshold workouts each week, 2 longish rides, and 2 recovery days. there are lots of ways to mix those around without frying yourself. so, you just do that. i don't wear a hr monitor and i sold my power tap -- after 16 years of structured training for swimming, cycling, and (briefly) running, i know what the different flavors of hard feel like, and anyway, any fool with a wristwatch can take his pulse.

i think of it in terms of getting in weekly amounts of intensities and recovery. mix and match as you need to, but always put the recovery days in between the hard ones. low-stress, no-stress.

as for being competitive -- that's racing skill. if you have the basic fitness for your category, having the nous to stay out of the wind and be in the right spot means a heck of a lot more than anything else. i've beaten 2s in 10mi tts this year. meanwhile, i schmuck around in 4 fields. draw your own conclusions. as obtuse says, i'm so many different colors of mp, its blinding.

[saab2000]

My deal really is my weight I think. That is a big one. I do not have a huge power/weight ratio.

Also, my world of work is different. Three or four days a week I can ride all day. But on another three or four (depending on my schedules) I can't ride at all.

So let's say I can ride four days per week and have three off. I can do other things on the other three days and I have been running. I could occasionally lift weights if that would help.

My work is not 9-5. It is days on and days off. During my days off I mope around and go to the grocery store looking like a bum, unshaven wearing baggy shorts and shirts and sandals. Then I go to work and look all fancy schmancy in the uniform.

Anyway, It is basically filling the two days per week when no riding can occur. I like to take one day per week off anyway to rest the muscles and mind. Always have.

First priority is the weight though.

Oh, and about getting old? Tell that to Ned Overend. I am 39 and clearly there will be some loss. But I don't feel it yet and it is not the reason for the problem.

Easiest thing to eliminate from my diet? Alcohol/beer.

[ada@prorider.or]

[QUOTE=saab2000] I can do other things on the other three days and I have been running. I could occasionally lift weights if that would help.

QUOTE]


well you did not say that you where running
that where you could loose weight!!

2 hours running each day will do the trick

as former long distance runner i can say there is where you loose the weight very quickly compare to cycling

make sure you run on soft ground like in the woods or a park

[93legendti]

My deal really is my weight I think. That is a big one. I do not have a huge power/weight ratio.

Also, my world of work is different. Three or four days a week I can ride all day. But on another three or four (depending on my schedules) I can't ride at all.

So let's say I can ride four days per week and have three off. I can do other things on the other three days and I have been running. I could occasionally lift weights if that would help.

My work is not 9-5. It is days on and days off. During my days off I mope around and go to the grocery store looking like a bum, unshaven wearing baggy shorts and shirts and sandals. Then I go to work and look all fancy schmancy in the uniform.

Anyway, It is basically filling the two days per week when no riding can occur. I like to take one day per week off anyway to rest the muscles and mind. Always have.

First priority is the weight though.

Oh, and about getting old? Tell that to Ned Overend. I am 39 and clearly there will be some loss. But I don't feel it yet and it is not the reason for the problem.

Easiest thing to eliminate from my diet? Alcohol/beer.

Saab, can you get a cheap Bike Friday and ride after/before flights? With a newborn and a 3 1/2 yr. old, I can't ride 5-6 hours at a clip, but I can make sure I ride everyday for at least 30-60 minutes; use the bike for errands; bike to meet the family at lunch/dinner/bookstore/ice cream/playground/beach, etc. I also ride to pick up my daughter from school/camp. On the days I can ride, I ride 2x a day, that way the 30 minute days don't seem so bad. Try 2 x a day on some of the days you can ride--that will raise your metabolism!

How about stair climbing in airports? 20-30 minutes climbing stairs is probably pretty good for the leg muscles...I might have some more ideas, but the 3 1/2 year old was up half the night--again, so we're pretty loopy here. :)