OT: Sorting financial affairs following death in the family

[tumbler]

Friends,
My father-in-law passed away yesterday after a hard battle with cancer. He was a tremendous man who always put others ahead of himself and loved his family more than anything. Unfortunately, he left behind a complex web of financial accounts that was organized primarily in his head and secondarily in a mess of printed account statements and scribbled notes. The responsible thing would have obviously been to have everything in order once he was given the diagnosis, but for a variety of reasons, that did not happen.

We spent the evening going through stacks and stacks of papers trying to make sense of things, and as the resident financial professional, I feel that everyone is looking to me to iron everything out. There are checking accounts, retirement accounts, loans against retirement accounts, credit cards, mortgages, leases, student loans, pension, life insurance... basically the works of financial assets and obligations. I want to do everything I can to help, but am realizing that we probably need to bring in a professional who deals with estate matters.

I'm wondering if anyone else has been in this situation or has a recommendation for how to proceed. Should I look for a financial planner, a lawyer, continue my google-research and try to untangle this myself? My mother-in-law doesn't have a ton of money to be racking up unnecessary legal bills, but I would be willing to help her with the cost assuming it was a valuable/necessary service that I couldn't provide myself. Thoughts?

[Llewellyn]

Sounds like you need a forensic accountant. Avoid financial planners. Good luck.

[cachagua]

I am going through this too. Where I've finally come to is, I'm going to spend some money to make the problems go away.

My aunt's estate was not too much of a tangle, and we did what we could to plan and prepare as much as possible, but it went through several sets of hands (estate planners, lawyers, accountants) and there were enough inconsistencies that it required some extra work to carry out her wishes. It was my job to make this happen, since she named me administrator. I've finally ended up with a law firm that specializes in this kind of work, and it will cost a little but I already feel like having expert guidance is taking a lot of weight off me.

Best of luck to you -- there's a certain amount of inevitable nonsense and jumping through hoops but ya get out the other side eventually.

One thing is: watch carefully for the things you can do to bypass complications in advance, so that whoever does this for you, in the future, will have an easy time. Again, this is a place where consulting with an experienced professional can do you a world of good.

[jlwdm]

My mother passed away six weeks ago, but her finances were not as complicated or unclear as yours. I am the personal representative and am dealing with liquidating the estate.

I want to get everything completed as soon as possible but it is necessary to have patience. Every financial institution has its own rules and you have to follow them even though they don't always make sense.

The first thing you need to do is to work with an attorney to follow the laws of the state he died in. The executor needs to be appointed to have authority to get things done. The terms and rules will vary from state to state and based on whether or not there is a will. I am the Personal Representative in Washington State as my mother died with a will.

Most financial institutions will require an original copy of the order appointing the executor. They will send the original back after they look at it though. You will also need copies of death certificates in some cases.

Next you will need an estate Employee Identification number and an estate account to put funds into. This should be done after the court order appointing the executor. I jumped the gun on this a little bit. You will need the EIN to set up the estate account. This may not be necessary if her name is on accounts and everything goes to her. If their are other heirs things change.

There will be some process for notifying creditors.

Notify Social Security and recognize that there is no payment for the month a person dies.

Contact medical insurance companies and others with regular payments and auto deductions.

My mother died on the 29th so there were state retirement payments that could not be stopped. The state then took back these payments and is issuing new payments for 29 days instead of 31 days.

On checking accounts and credit cards you should be able to look at a years worth of statements and determine automatic deductions and deposits and what expenses there are.

My father had passed away some time ago so I am dealing with liquidation as opposed to transfers to a spouse. When my father died things were fairly easy as she was the sole beneficiary of his will, she was on all accounts and they lived in a community property state. In this case it is just a matter of changing the name on the account and deciding if your mother in law wants to keep or liquidate each account.

Also some accounts could have rights of survivorship that would automatically transfer title.

For real estate you will need to work with local taxing authorities. And real estate professionals if you are selling. My biggest issue is selling an older 4 week per year timeshare.

The first step though is working with an attorney and having a handle on assets and liabilities. If her name is on accounts this could be easier than you think.

Just remember to have patience.

Jeff

[Ralph]

My mother passed away six weeks ago, but her finances were not as complicated or unclear as yours. I am the personal representative and am dealing with liquidating the estate.

I want to get everything completed as soon as possible but it is necessary to have patience. Every financial institution has its own rules and you have to follow them even though they don't always make sense.

The first thing you need to do is to work with an attorney to follow the laws of the state he died in. The executor needs to be appointed to have authority to get things done. The terms and rules will vary from state to state and based on whether or not there is a will. I am the Personal Representative in Washington State as my mother died with a will.

Most financial institutions will require an original copy of the order appointing the executor. They will send the original back after they look at it though. You will also need copies of death certificates in some cases.

Next you will need an estate Employee Identification number and an estate account to put funds into. This should be done after the court order appointing the executor. I jumped the gun on this a little bit. You will need the EIN to set up the estate account. This may not be necessary if her name is on accounts and everything goes to her. If their are other heirs things change.

There will be some process for notifying creditors.

Notify Social Security and recognize that there is no payment for the month a person dies.

Contact medical insurance companies and others with regular payments and auto deductions.

My mother died on the 29th so there were state retirement payments that could not be stopped. The state then took back these payments and is issuing new payments for 29 days instead of 31 days.

On checking accounts and credit cards you should be able to look at a years worth of statements and determine automatic deductions and deposits and what expenses there are.

My father had passed away some time ago so I am dealing with liquidation as opposed to transfers to a spouse. When my father died things were fairly easy as she was the sole beneficiary of his will, she was on all accounts and they lived in a community property state. In this case it is just a matter of changing the name on the account and deciding if your mother in law wants to keep or liquidate each account.

Also some accounts could have rights of survivorship that would automatically transfer title.

For real estate you will need to work with local taxing authorities. And real estate professionals if you are selling. My biggest issue is selling an older 4 week per year timeshare.

The first step though is working with an attorney and having a handle on assets and liabilities. If her name is on accounts this could be easier than you think.

Just remember to have patience.

Jeff

Good advice. Find an estate attorney. He will either do it, or guide you. Depending on how much help you need (how helpless the per rep is)Someone needs to be named personal rep of the estate. Then go step by step from there. I've done it. Things sort out.

[paredown]

<snip>
Just remember to have patience.

Jeff
All the rest of Jeff's post is gold too, but patience is really important. When my FIL passed away, even though he made a real effort to get all of his important stuff together, it still was a complicated and slow process to get a handle on the affairs of a fairly private man.

A lot of what you need to do does not require a professional at this point IMO; it is straight out grunt work. Sorting paper, making lists, sorting more paper. Once you get a handle on the rough picture in terms of accounts etc, it will be much easier to hand it off to someone else at that point if need be, and spend more of your time doing all the stuff that Jeff outlined. (I have a friend who works as a "declutterer" and she has done several jobs where she is the paper reader and sorter for an estate, so it may be possible to get help, but I think she is fairly rare for someone in her line of work...)

Going forward, the best thing we did for my MIL was to hook her up with financial planners, since she had relied on her husband to 'take care of things'. The recommendation came from a family friend/lawyer, we interviewed them and then got her set up. They've kept her on the rails for over a decade...

[54ny77]

Our condolences for your loss.

What paredown wrote below is really, really good advice. Don't panic.

Are you financially literate with the kinds of things your FIL did for business, i.e., the types of accounts that he might have had? If not, don't be afraid to reach out to a close friend who is more savvy in that regard, and ask for some help just to take a look at it. Even if it's just a little bit. It will help.

All the rest of Jeff's post is gold too, but patience is really important. When my FIL passed away, even though he made a real effort to get all of his important stuff together, it still was a complicated and slow process to get a handle on the affairs of a fairly private man.

A lot of what you need to do does not require a professional at this point IMO; it is straight out grunt work. Sorting paper, making lists, sorting more paper. Once you get a handle on the rough picture in terms of accounts etc, it will be much easier to hand it off to someone else at that point if need be, and spend more of your time doing all the stuff that Jeff outlined. (I have a friend who works as a "declutterer" and she has done several jobs where she is the paper reader and sorter for an estate, so it may be possible to get help, but I think she is fairly rare for someone in her line of work...)

Going forward, the best thing we did for my MIL was to hook her up with financial planners, since she had relied on her husband to 'take care of things'. The recommendation came from a family friend/lawyer, we interviewed them and then got her set up. They've kept her on the rails for over a decade...

[livingminimal]

Ive been through this. My MIL was the executor of an estate that had accounts as high as 500,000, property, and accounts as low as 5,000 and empty safety deposit boxes. Eccentric child-less woman passed away in my wife's family.

My MIL didn't really want to do the work, so I ended up taking care of it, from A-Z.

Fortunately there was a will/trust, and we returned back to that estate attorney to help. As others have said, that is the route to go. They will give you a game plan and help you make sense of it all. The Math is easy, the jumping through hoops to get documentation from some small financial institution in Utah for 800 bucks (But you have to account for every penny in the state) is not, and thats what eats up all your time. It was all in a trust too, and that didn't make it any easier.

Just know, the probate process can take for-freaking-ever dependent on your local court system and your attorney.

Most importantly, I am very sorry for your loss.

[unterhausen]

my mother died watching the winter olympics that were held in Russia. We still haven't figured out her finances. She probably didn't understand them fully. My brother is holding onto the small amount of money we made selling off her business because he's worried she owed taxes, but I have little faith that we will ever figure that out. She wasn't actually making any money off the business, but it would be hard to prove that since there are no records.

[rePhil]

I think the takeaway here is that now is the time for us to get things in order.

[SoCalSteve]

If this hasn't been said before...get lots of Death Certificates ( at least 10 ). You are going to need them as all financial institutions will want one before they proceed.

Sorry about your loss.

Steve

[nesteel]

First off, my condolences.
Secondly, every time I hear these horror stories, I start to appreciate the fact that my mother only had $67 dollars in her bank account, and two cars to deal with when she chose to leave this earth.

[ORMojo]

Sorry for your loss. The work you are facing is doable on your own, but will be quicker, and much more certain, with an estate attorney. Lots of good advice already offered above.

Unfortunately, I've personally done this four times now (brother, father, step-father, daughter), and am prepared to do it for my mom some day. By now, barring some external legal issues (such as with my daughter), I could handle a simple estate by myself (plus, I've been doing my mom's taxes for years, so I know her situation). But I would have never made it through (correctly) the first one or two times without the assistance of the estate attorney.

And yes, take time, be patient. And not only multiple death certificates, but multiple copies of letters of appointment will be necessary.

[TBLS]

Sorry for your loss. When I went thru this with my dad, I used this as an opportunity to simplify/reduce the number of accounts for my mom...way too many bank accounts, etc

Few lessons:

Review tax returns to ID accounts, etc.
Get account names changed, review beneficiaries. Include utilities, etc
If a veteran, remember the VA


Make a list and review one thing at a time....it takes time!

[d_douglas]

Just remember to have patience.

Jeff

So true. My father-in-law died on Jan 01 and my wife (who is the more astute one in our family in terms of finances) is still in the midst of resolving his estate. It takes great patience and his finances were really quite simple.

Good luck and my condolences.

[pncguy]

Tumbler, I'm sorry for your loss. We just lost my stepmother on Sunday (Mother's Day!) to cancer, so I know what you're going through.

[shovelhd]

I am sorry for your loss.

[PQJ]

My heartfelt condolences. I would look to get a good tax laywer or tax accountant. I would avoid financial planner, because their eye will be in their fee and you need objective advice about the best way forward.

[tumbler]

Thank you all for the advice and condolences. This is very helpful.

I am pretty financially literate (undergrad and graduate degrees, a CPA, years working in finance)... but no experience whatsoever with estates, life insurance, pensions, social security, creditors, protecting assets, etc. My plan at this point is to try and get an understanding of all the accounts, policies, balances, and ownership of each (some are only in my father-in-law's name, some are joint) and then bring this information to an estate lawyer to help facilitate the transfer of accounts/policies to either the estate or my mother-in-law directly where appropriate. At the same time, I'm working to figure out all the utilities and necessary autopayments to make sure basic life is not interrupted.

Hopefully this is a reasonable approach. If anyone has additional comments, please continue to chime in as I've never dealt with this before and just hearing your experiences is very helpful.

[54ny77]

Sending you a PM....

Thank you all for the advice and condolences. This is very helpful.

I am pretty financially literate (undergrad and graduate degrees, a CPA, years working in finance)... but no experience whatsoever with estates, life insurance, pensions, social security, creditors, protecting assets, etc. My plan at this point is to try and get an understanding of all the accounts, policies, balances, and ownership of each (some are only in my father-in-law's name, some are joint) and then bring this information to an estate lawyer to help facilitate the transfer of accounts/policies to either the estate or my mother-in-law directly where appropriate. At the same time, I'm working to figure out all the utilities and necessary autopayments to make sure basic life is not interrupted.

Hopefully this is a reasonable approach. If anyone has additional comments, please continue to chime in as I've never dealt with this before and just hearing your experiences is very helpful.

[biker72]

My wife passed away two years ago. The funeral directer urged me to get plenty of certified death certificates. I could always get more later but the fee would be much higher.

I got 20 and have 5 left.

[Hardlyrob]

So sorry for your loss Tumbler - your FIL sounds like he was a terrific guy.

JLWDM outlines it very well. The first things you need to do are get the pieces that allow you to transfer / liquidate assets in place: Certified copies of death certificates - you will need more copies than you think; The letter from the state court naming you as executor (letters testamentary) - again, you will need several certified copies - some banks send them back, for stock transfers, almost nobody does. Get to know an estate lawyer - if there is a will, that's a great place to start. The lawyer can get you the EIN for the estate (which is actually a corporation of sorts), then you can open a checking account for the estate. You will need to file a tax return for the estate - it is part of TurboTax small business - not personal. The final year for the estate you will have to file a terminal return with the Feds and State.

Other things you will find out - to transfer stocks you will become familiar with the Medallion Guarantee Stamp - sort of a step up from a notary. Your bank manager will be able to do that when transferring stocks. REad the forms, some of them must be signed in the presence of the person putting the stamp on - if you sign it before, you have to start over.

If there are multiple stocks held in one holding company (like Compushare, or Wells Fargo for DRIPS) you can transfer them all at once with a properly filled out / notarized / medallion stamped from for each stock, and one cover letter of instruction for the entire bundle. Took me a while to figure out you can do them in batches.

I found it really useful to setup a tracking spreadsheet that got updated when we found new accounts, payments, etc. This way I could track progress over time, and have all / most of the account numbers in one place. Some of the most annoying things are the little things you didn't think were important. My mother had a book subscription where they send you books, and you send back the ones you don't want. It took more calls / emails / letters to stop that damned subscription than anything else.

Patience is very very good. A rule of thumb is it will take 9 months to a year to completely settle a fairly simple estate. I went through transferring everything to my mom's name when my dad died in 2010, then liquidating everything, including selling the house, and distributing to the heirs after my mom died in 2015 - it is quite the process.

The good news is that there are clearly a number of Forumites who know what they are talking about having been through this process.

Best of luck.

Rob

[Hardlyrob]

Oh yeah - one other thing Tumbler.

Your bank may have estate expediters - they prepare all the paperwork, and you just come in and sign what needs to be signed. This may be a really good use of money vs. time. Check with your bank and see if they offer this service.

Rob

[jtakeda]

Sending pm

[carpediemracing]

My dad passed Oct 2016. According to the estate lawyer he had a very straightforward set of assets, helped by the fact that since he was incapable of doing anything complex for many years, my brother was consolidating accounts.

Still, after many years of liquidating accounts and simplifying things, we still got hit by some unexpected things (mortgage from 50 years ago popped up, it was filed in duplicate by the original law firm by accident, fortunately my dad had the whatever deed that proved he paid it).

We're just clearing up the last of his stuff now, in May of 2017.

My wife, a CPA, has been working with my brother. My brother has dedicated at least one full work day every week since Oct 2016 to dealing with the estate (he usually worked on my dad's estate every Tuesday for the prior year or two), and he was full on for about 2 weeks in November. My brother is extremely conscientious, to the point the estate lawyer asked if he'd be interested in being a paralegal.

We four siblings decided my brother (the one that took care of my dad the longest) should get the house so that simplified things as well. No selling any material goods off to split proceeds.

Remember, this is a very simple estate. I think there were 8 line items?, if you count "household goods" as one line item and "house" as another. It might have been 7 lines. There was just one account missing a named beneficiary, we were named in the others.

I can't imagine trying to sort through more than that. All the best.

[jlwdm]

Here is a typical example of little things that drive you crazy dealing with an estate.

My wife and I flew to Munich arriving on Friday. At 2:00 Saturday morning in Germany which is 7:00 p.m Friday night in Dallas I get a call from a 1-800 number so I ignore it. The call was from Discover Bank. I talked to them early in the process and sent what they asked for. Nineteen days later they called to say they needed a few more things which I then sent. A voice mail just said to call them. Because of the delays I had I called right back.

The number I was given was a general number without a specific department so I explained the situation and was transferred to a department that was clearly wrong and closed right as the initial call came in. I called back and eventually got to the right department. Everything is in order and a check is being sent so at least I am done with them.

Also whenever I am mailing to them or vice versa they say expect 7-10 business days for mail to arrive. It does not take this long for mail between SLC and DFW.

Just minor annoyances.

Jeff