lamenting the discontinuation of good parts

[AngryScientist]

Just took delivery of a nice ultegra seatpost and it got me to lamenting the fact that neither campy or shimano make these kind of groupset "add ons" anymore. it's too bad because they were all good, reliable stuff.

Of course the top end stuff was super nice, but the ultegra/centaur level gear was solid joe racer level quality. too bad those days are over.

https://www.bricklanebikes.co.uk/content/images/thumbs/0024978_shimano-ultegra-seat-post-silver.jpeg

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/photos/2003/tech/features/campy_midrange/cereggisella01.jpg

http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/download/file.php?id=280489

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v247/kingcutter/SALES/bits004-1.jpg

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTIwMFgxNjAw/z/P1IAAOSwgQ9VsB2I/$_1.JPG

[hollowgram5]

🍻🍻 I will have to completely agree with you.

[weisan]

http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-1rmgckn/products/1311/images/10497/img_5800_1600x1067__35756.1411479613.1280.1280.jpg ?c=2

[froze]

I think the major component manufactures got out of selling those parts because they were not as good as aftermarket parts nor did they sell by the boatload, so they went back to basics and selling what they know best. This sort of thing went on for a long time, back in 84 I got a Suntour Superbe groupset which came with a seatpost, stem, and headset, all three of those items I could get lighter weight stuff from other companies.

[echelon_john]

All about OEM spec. Once bike manufacturers realized they could substitute cheaper components in less visible spots while still boasting "Dura Ace Equipeed" (meaning drivetrain) the impetus for manufacturers like Shimano and Campy to make ancillary parts all but disappeared.

[Veloo]

Didn't know there was a Centaur post. It's quite nice.
I think it was Merlin that had Record carbon posts not so long ago but they were 30.9.

[happycampyer]

I thought this was going to be another thread about caliper brakes.

[54ny77]

i am a hoarder of alloy 10 spd. parts, and related alloy genre.

hell man, i was fine with 8 spd. i generally only use 5, maybe 6 gears anyway: fast, sorta fast, medium, slow, and really slow.

a look at my cogs will demonstrate that maxim.

:banana:

[Llewellyn]

i am a hoarder of alloy 10 spd. parts, and related alloy genre.



Same here for 9 speed. I don't have a parts bin, more like an inventory!!

[Llewellyn]

http://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-1rmgckn/products/1311/images/10497/img_5800_1600x1067__35756.1411479613.1280.1280.jpg ?c=2


:banana::banana::banana:

[Bentley]

i am a hoarder of alloy 10 spd. parts, and related alloy genre.

hell man, i was fine with 8 spd. i generally only use 5, maybe 6 gears anyway: fast, sorta fast, medium, slow, and really slow.

a look at my cogs will demonstrate that maxim.

:banana:

I have an extensive amount of 10 speed equipment and a bunch of bikes built up with 9 speed. The 9 speed works flawlessly, but harder to find good used so I collect the 10 speed so I can continue to use my current wheels.

Not too excited about 11 speed and disc brakes

[Dave B]

I am in the process of hoarding fizik aliante saddles. The first generation. Love those things.

Also...and I might be the only one, but I loved the XTR 960 dual control levers. They were perfect to me and wish they hadn't gone away.


sigh

[Rpoole8537]

I recently built a Merlin and used a pair of Superbe Pro brakes. I am amazed by how well they work. My other road bikes are DA but I believe the Suntour brakes out perform them.

[merckx]

I also lament the discontinuation of many excellent seatposts; however I particularly lament selling this past year a perfectly nice Campy NR post. A sale I regretted all the way to the post office.

[merckx]

I miss Campag. silver hubsets, but who doesn't? I also miss my old Ideale 90 saddle though I understand that those may be revisiting the living.

[merckx]

Finally.......I miss the days when a single bicycle was pressed into service for all duties including: time trials, touring, training, cyclocross, coffee shop jaunts. Bicycles manufactured in the 1950's were about perfect. You just needed an additional set of racing wheels to bolt on before the number was pinned on. Mudguards, lights and rear carrier be damned.

[El Chaba]

Campy gruppos were once supplied with dropouts and a pump head for a Silca in addition to pedals, headset, seatpost and all of the other parts we consider to be a gruppo today....There was a steady erosion, but when SRAM came on the scene the definition changed to a drivetrain with brakes.....Shimano and Campy soon followed suit.

[paredown]

Finally.......I miss the days when a single bicycle was pressed into service for all duties including: time trials, touring, training, cyclocross, coffee shop jaunts. Bicycles manufactured in the 1950's were about perfect. You just needed an additional set of racing wheels to bolt on before the number was pinned on. Mudguards, lights and rear carrier be damned.
This.

I remember carrying frames slung over my shoulder while riding, a simple wood clamped brake body added on the stays and cheapy lever to add a little braking to ride your track bike to the track--and yes, like the picture carrying your "good" wheels to the race...

I think the all-purpose bike--softer tubing, stage race geo and fairly durable components lasted into my era of the early '70s. We'd glue up slightly stouter tires and go cyclo-cross racing with the same bikes we would then clean up and go road race...

[saab2000]

Take away nostalgia and sometimes false nostalgia for a time that never actually existed and new stuff is generally better than old stuff. This isn't universally true, but functionally, my new components and bikes are simply better than my old ones.

Case in point. I've got an unhealthy love of Look 585s. They're great bikes. They're also essentially (highly) evolved versions of their earliest carbon bikes - carbon tubes and lugged construction. Is it a nice way to make a bike? Sure. It's also not how today's top bikes are constructed and they are not as 'good' as my Giant, which is monocoque construction and much, much stiffer and really gives up nothing in ride quality.

People (myself included) make purchases and do things for emotional reasons. That's OK. But by an real measure today's bikes are better than yesterday's bikes. There are exceptions, but take the emotion out of it and I think most people would agree.

My 105 kit on one of my bikes works better than any high end, expensive stuff I had 10-15 years ago. Had it existed in 1990 it would have been wildly revolutionary for it's excellence and technological superiority.

Nothing wrong with being emotional about stuff. But don't mistake emotional attachment with objectivity.

How many Camaros and Challengers and Mustangs are being sold these days? Zillions. Why? Because they bring their buyers back to another era. One that really only existed in their minds. Old Camaros and Challengers and Mustangs were junky cars.

It's called marketing and that's all about emotion.

[El Chaba]

To be sure, we're talking about shades of grey, but I am of the opinion that the high point of component function/serviceability occurred during the "9 speed era"....The 10 speed era was not far off and the parts are generally more available, so that's where I have settled. Coincidentally-or not-I am also of the opinion that the frames from that era had the best balance of desirable qualities. To me, it has been incrementally downhill from classics such as a late c40 or a VXRS. I get preached to from time to time on rides that I should "upgrade" to electronic this, 11 speed that or hydraulic whatever. I note that none of these devotees are riding away from me as a result of these performance enhancing advancements. I'll note that most of these lectures come from people who do not maintain their own bikes.

[Bostic]

Great points above. However for me it's not emotion but attraction. Looks are looks and to me the modern Camaro and Charger sure ain't good looking. I'll take a 1970 1/2 split bumper Rally Sport or 1968 Charger 10 times out of 10. The 9 speed silver Ultegra cranks sure look a heck of a lot better than the 8000 that's due for release soon.

[happycampyer]

Finally.......I miss the days when a single bicycle was pressed into service for all duties including: time trials, touring, training, cyclocross, coffee shop jaunts. Bicycles manufactured in the 1950's were about perfect. You just needed an additional set of racing wheels to bolt on before the number was pinned on. Mudguards, lights and rear carrier be damned.

Steve Hampsten (and several others) still make this type of bike. The other day I threw a pair of flat pedals on my ti Strada Bianca to ride into town, wearing street clothes. I suppose it wouldn't work for track or cyclocross, but it is otherwise pretty much a do-it-all bike.

I'm with the former Mr.President--hoarding Aliante saddles.

[martl]

Nitto saves me from lamenting the absence of elegant silver polished quill stems and silver classic-form handlebars without oversize-nonsense.
and Selle Italia does the same by selling classic "Flite Titanium"s without embroidery or stitching.

[merckx]

Steve Hampsten (and several others) still make this type of bike. The other day I threw a pair of flat pedals on my ti Strada Bianca to ride into town, wearing street clothes. I suppose it wouldn't work for track or cyclocross, but it is otherwise pretty much a do-it-all bike.

I'm with the former Mr.President--hoarding Aliante saddles.

I have this machine. It is a Zanconato, and currently my only bicycle. I use it for everything. D2R2, time trials, centuries with 10,000 verts, commuting, coffee stops, and winter training in New England. It is easy, I lift it from the peg daily, and just pedal the damn thing. I couldn't be happier.

Continuing what El Chaba said, I also desire sustainability. I was in the biz for a long time, am a professional level mechanic, yet couldn't be bothered when increasingly complex bicycle componentry falters, and keeps me from throwing a leg over my bicycle even for a moment. For example when: batteries that power shift systems die, low count spoke wheels break, carbon rims burn up, shift wires break in STI levers, outboard BB bearings that go pear-shaped after a century ride in the rain, etc. Sure, all of this technology has improved the performance of the machine. No argument there. However, four of the above mechanical stutter-steps have occurred to me in recent years, and then I find myself in my shop rather than on the road. Sure, they are easy to remedy, but it is still a PITA. Is it too much to ask for a machine that will remain a reliable companion?

[merckx]

However........if I was still pinning a number on I would ensconce myself on one of these, and make no apologizes, and just deal with the mechanical rubbish that littered my life.

[merckx]

Of course this machine did not prevent anyone from the enjoyment of leveraging his body forward.

[FlashUNC]

So how many wistful cyclists looking at the past through rose colored glasses lamented the creation of rim brakes when the duck and spoon brakes were all the rage?

How many lamented the death of the Paris-Roubaix derailleur when the parallelogram design took hold?

I get the push for nostalgia, but everybody tends to forget the bad stuff at the expense of the good, and really, the new stuff today can be pretty fantastic.

[merckx]

I also miss when a healthy helping of corn-on-the-cob was de rigueur, and twenty fours were reserved for the largest cols. I guess I was older then.

[Red Tornado]

to be sure, we're talking about shades of grey, but i am of the opinion that the high point of component function/serviceability occurred during the "9 speed era"....the 10 speed era was not far off and the parts are generally more available, so that's where i have settled. Coincidentally-or not-i am also of the opinion that the frames from that era had the best balance of desirable qualities. To me, it has been incrementally downhill from classics such as a late c40 or a vxrs. i get preached to from time to time on rides that i should "upgrade" to electronic this, 11 speed that or hydraulic whatever. I note that none of these devotees are riding away from me as a result of these performance enhancing advancements. i'll note that most of these lectures come from people who do not maintain their own bikes.
+1

[merckx]

So how many wistful cyclists looking at the past through rose colored glasses lamented the creation of rim brakes when the duck and spoon brakes were all the rage?

How many lamented the death of the Paris-Roubaix derailleur when the parallelogram design took hold?

I get the push for nostalgia, but everybody tends to forget the bad stuff at the expense of the good, and really, the new stuff today can be pretty fantastic.

How many wistful cyclists enjoy whipping out the mobile after another low spoke wheel has bought the farm? See my post above with the c60. I am not against the advancement of technology, just equipment that cannot withstand daily, real-world use. I ride the **** out of my equipment, and have realized that much of the equipment that is available today was designed for ProTour athletes who enjoy the employment of a mechanic when needed, and are not hindered when one of their machines is idle. I also enjoy working on my machines, but not when the road calls.

[hollowgram5]

.... I get preached to from time to time on rides that I should "upgrade" to electronic this, 11 speed that or hydraulic whatever. I note that none of these devotees are riding away from me as a result of these performance enhancing advancements. I'll note that most of these lectures come from people who do not maintain their own bikes.

Been there as well.. my favorite was a dude on a group ride in GA telling me that I needed to get a carbon bike, because they are so much more comfortable (while riding a carbon TT bike). He insisted that 'steel bikes are heavy,' ride like crap, and because of this I'd also be faster on carbon. I was on my Salsa La Cruz rolling on BG RnRs.

I thanked him for his opinion and suggested a ride on a modern steel bike, smiled, and pedalled away back up to the group.

[Anarchist]

So how many wistful cyclists looking at the past through rose colored glasses lamented the creation of rim brakes when the duck and spoon brakes were all the rage?

How many lamented the death of the Paris-Roubaix derailleur when the parallelogram design took hold?

I get the push for nostalgia, but everybody tends to forget the bad stuff at the expense of the good, and really, the new stuff today can be pretty fantastic.

A tiresome canard, missing the whole point.

[vav]

Time to make bike parts great again!! :D :p

[stien]

I have this machine. It is a Zanconato, and currently my only bicycle. I use it for everything. D2R2, time trials, centuries with 10,000 verts, commuting, coffee stops, and winter training in New England. It is easy, I lift it from the peg daily, and just pedal the damn thing. I couldn't be happier.


I'd love to see a pic of a modern Zanc with downtube shifters!

[ntb1001]

I also miss when a healthy helping of corn-on-the-cob was de rigueur, and twenty fours were reserved for the largest cols. I guess I was older then.
so true...I rode 13-18 frewheels for a long time.
and that's with a 53x42 up front.

I can't imagine living with that now.

Sent from my SM-G935W8 using Tapatalk

[El Chaba]

I should add that I don't care what parts anybody else uses..If the discussion comes up, I'm glad to offer my own reasoning for my selections, but I'm not selling anything so I have no reason to influence anybody.

[merckx]

I'd love to see a pic of a modern Zanc with downtube shifters!

Don't tell Mike!

[hollowgram5]

Don't tell Mike!
That orange is awesome!!

[RudAwkning]

Just took delivery of a nice ultegra seatpost and it got me to lamenting the fact that neither campy or shimano make these kind of groupset "add ons" anymore. it's too bad because they were all good, reliable stuff.

Of course the top end stuff was super nice, but the ultegra/centaur level gear was solid joe racer level quality. too bad those days are over.



From my parts bin :)

[El Chaba]

Very classic and classy, Merckx....

[froze]

I recently built a Merlin and used a pair of Superbe Pro brakes. I am amazed by how well they work. My other road bikes are DA but I believe the Suntour brakes out perform them.

This is something that the more modern generation won't believe and refuses to believe because old technology is just that...old, so it's not possible for something that old and obsolete to outperform newer technology, but they do! I have a set of Superbe brakes myself, I also have a set of modern dual pivot 105 brakes, and use to have a set of dual pivot Athena brakes, and those old Superbe brakes worked in all aspects just as well, if not better than either of the dual pivots I mentioned. Suntour had Dia Compe make those brakes which means that the top of the line Dia Compe were just as good too. The brakes I had were basically a copy in the looks department only of the Campy Super Record that had holes drilled into the levers.

I use to race on Suntour Superbe components, of course opinions differ, but I thought the Superbe stuff was superior to anything that anyone else put out no matter what side of the ocean they were from. They never failed me and shifted faster than any other group by any company, heck even mid range Suntour derailleurs were outperforming high end from Shimano, Campy, or anyone else back then, plus Suntour was priced lower.

Anyway, after over 150,000 miles the Superbe stuff I have has never failed.

[stien]

Anyway, after over 150,000 miles the Superbe stuff I have has never failed.

You must have quite the cache of chainrings, chains, and cogs. Impressive!

I was just musing about the most future-proof setup. What BCD would the chainrings be? 144bcd chainring supplies must be dwindling.

[Bob Ross]

I am in the process of hoarding fizik aliante saddles.

You too? Crap, now I have to kill you...


:)

[El Chaba]

You must have quite the cache of chainrings, chains, and cogs. Impressive!

I was just musing about the most future-proof setup. What BCD would the chainrings be? 144bcd chainring supplies must be dwindling.

T.A. and Stronglight still make them.....

[AngryScientist]

From my parts bin :)

awesome!

[R3awak3n]

not super missed yet but its going to start really happening.... true temper tubesets.

whats yamaguchi gonna do?!?!?

[Anarchist]

Don't tell Mike!

Are you shifting those friction?

I have two I would like to push back to DT shifters but really wonder at the prospect of friction shifting a 10 speed cassette.

[FlashUNC]

How many wistful cyclists enjoy whipping out the mobile after another low spoke wheel has bought the farm? See my post above with the c60. I am not against the advancement of technology, just equipment that cannot withstand daily, real-world use. I ride the **** out of my equipment, and have realized that much of the equipment that is available today was designed for ProTour athletes who enjoy the employment of a mechanic when needed, and are not hindered when one of their machines is idle. I also enjoy working on my machines, but not when the road calls.

The most reliable wheels I've ever used are Hyperons, Boras, and Shamals. Yes, big box wheels. They've taken a beating and needed zero maintenance.

Everything breaks. But modern stuff is pretty nice.

A tiresome canard, missing the whole point.

Is it? I don't understand this sense that cycling technology reached some kind of nexus of simplicity/beauty/functionality around the time Tommy Simpson was wearing bowler hats and winning races. Is some of the old stuff great? Sure, but do people forget the garbage that existed too? Soft rims that went out of true just breathing on them wrong. Brakes that required the hand strength of a gorilla to operate, gearing that grinded knee cartiledge to dust. Tires that rotted just by looking at them sideways.

Are bikes more complex these days? Of course. But some jamoke in the 1910s could have said the same about rim brakes over spoon brakes, time is a flat circle, etc etc.

[Anarchist]

From my parts bin :)

I don't have an Ultegra one, but have all of the others on bikes.

I have Nitto ones in place of the Ultegra though.

[icepick_trotsky]

You must have quite the cache of chainrings, chains, and cogs. Impressive!

I was just musing about the most future-proof setup. What BCD would the chainrings be? 144bcd chainring supplies must be dwindling.

The superbe pro stuff, like most suntour, was friction, so any old 8 speed chain and 6 or 7 speed freewheel will do. Shimano will likely make this stuff forever.
You can also run it with more speeds, depending on your shifter finesse.

The BCD is 144, but rings are still around.

[froze]

You must have quite the cache of chainrings, chains, and cogs. Impressive!

I was just musing about the most future-proof setup. What BCD would the chainrings be? 144bcd chainring supplies must be dwindling.

I'm not that anal, I never kept the old rings, chains, or cogs. The surprising thing is that the rings lasted a very long time, I think I got about 60,000 miles out of the large one. but keep in mind too that older chains were wider and so were the gears which made them last longer, even the chains lasted longer. I got about 15,000 miles on a chain, the rear gear cluster would last about 3 times longer than the chain, and the chain gear about 4 times longer. I also kept my drivetrain very clean and lubed which helps with longevity of moving parts.

I have NEVER replaced any of the bearings either in the hubs, pedals, or the bottom bracket! And I only had to replace the jockey wheels once. The headset was the odd duck out because when I raced I used a Stronglite headset because it was lighter than the Superbe headset that came in the groupset I bought, but about 10 years after I stopped racing I wanted the better looking Superbe headset on the bike so I took off the ugly black Stronglite and put on the silver polished Superbe, so that headset has roughly 1/2 the miles that the rest of the group has, and those bearings have also never been replaced.

The other odd thing is that my rear derailleur is a Superbe Tech derailleur. I opted for that one after the shop mechanic/racer told me that that derailleur will shift under load which climbing mountains of Calif, which other derailleurs could not, so I got that one despite it being heavier than the Superbe Pro derailleur, but I wanted that capability. A few years later I found out from other mechanics that the Tech derailleur was problematic so I bought another one to replace the original one when it broke...it never broke! Which means I still have the replacement Tech derailleur brand new unused in it's box. When the advent of the internet came around everywhere I read for years said the Tech was junk, it shifted fast when it worked but internally it had fatal flaws, which I just don't understand that because after over 150,000 miles none of the fatal flaws have surfaced...yet! I suppose if they do ever surface I won't be crying since I got so many miles out of it.

The biggest problem I've had with the group is finding original gum rubber hoods for the brakes, I've had to settle for Dia Compe marked hoods instead. And those gum rubber hoods don't last long either, maybe 5 to 7 years before the begin to crack.

The bike that has that Superbe group on it I have semi retired about 5 years ago, it now gets ridden maybe once or twice a year. Someday I want to the get the bike frame repainted and new decals, the sun of So Califor just ate the decals away to almost nothing, and the paint is faded as well.

[merckx]

Are you shifting those friction?

I have two I would like to push back to DT shifters but really wonder at the prospect of friction shifting a 10 speed cassette.

No friction. That line was drawn awhile ago. The orange Zank currently has 9v index. I've had everything from Super Record 11v on this frame to what currently hangs from it. When I realized that I was changing Ergo/STI shift cables too frequently (especially in winter), punting outboard BB bearings after rainy spells, and walking home when a Neutron spoke gave up it's life, and then again when a Ksyrium spoke did the same, is when I decided that my time spent turning the pedals superseded the use of fickle equipment. I do have an assortment of parts that are changed out depending on the season. The brakeset in the photos show 1985 NR that I've abused for years, and now are used in the winter months to spare the skeletons from unnecessary abuse. I use Ergopowers too when I'm feeling generous.

BTW, I've been building wheels since 1976. Never have I had to walk home because of a broken spoke from a pair of wheels I've built, and my clients can say the same.

[DrSpoke]

So how many wistful cyclists looking at the past through rose colored glasses lamented the creation of rim brakes when the duck and spoon brakes were all the rage?

How many lamented the death of the Paris-Roubaix derailleur when the parallelogram design took hold?

I get the push for nostalgia, but everybody tends to forget the bad stuff at the expense of the good, and really, the new stuff today can be pretty fantastic.

I was just watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYN0aijIZfY

And then read this ^

Now I know what a Paris-Roubaix derailleur looks like :)

[dgauthier]

The most reliable wheels I've ever used are Hyperons, Boras, and Shamals. Yes, *Campagnolo* wheels. They've taken a beating and needed zero maintenance.

Everything breaks. But *Campy* stuff is pretty nice.


There, I fixed that for ya.

[Mark McM]

Is it? I don't understand this sense that cycling technology reached some kind of nexus of simplicity/beauty/functionality around the time Tommy Simpson was wearing bowler hats and winning races. Is some of the old stuff great? Sure, but do people forget the garbage that existed too? Soft rims that went out of true just breathing on them wrong. Brakes that required the hand strength of a gorilla to operate, gearing that grinded knee cartiledge to dust. Tires that rotted just by looking at them sideways.

Are bikes more complex these days? Of course. But some jamoke in the 1910s could have said the same about rim brakes over spoon brakes, time is a flat circle, etc etc.

I mostly agree with what you are saying. Most technology has improved over time. For example, automobiles are much better today then they were in the '70s and '80s. And bicycles are by and larger better today.

On the other hand, as with many other evolutionary processes, the evolution of the bike tends to be a case of three steps forward and then one step backward. A goodly fraction of the time, new technologies turn out to be not as advantageous as thought and then get abandoned, or have undesirable side affects that are simply accepted to obtain the other properties of the new technology.

Examples of the former are things like the Colnago Bi-titan, which its dual down tubes, or the Shimano Dura-Ace AX dropped-platform pedals. Examples of the latter are dual control shifters (which are heavier, more expensive, and have less precise shifter due to longer cable runs with multiple bends, compared to downtube shifters), or dual pivot brakes (which are heavier, more expensive, and have less pad clearance than single pivot brakes).

Unfortunately, bicycle technology also often doesn't learn from past failures, and repeats the same failed technology like and endless loop. How many times have oval chainrings or airless tires tires come and gone?

[stien]

No friction. That line was drawn awhile ago. The orange Zank currently has 9v index. I've had everything from Super Record 11v on this frame to what currently hangs from it. When I realized that I was changing Ergo/STI shift cables too frequently (especially in winter), punting outboard BB bearings after rainy spells, and walking home when a Neutron spoke gave up it's life, and then again when a Ksyrium spoke did the same, is when I decided that my time turning the pedals superseded the use of fickle equipment. I do have an assortment of parts that are changed out depending on the season. The brakeset in the photos show 1985 NR that I've abused for years, and now are used in the winter months to spare the skeletons from unnecessary abuse. I use Ergopowers too when I'm feeling generous.

BTW, I've been building wheels since 1976. Never have I had to walk home because of a broken spoke from a pair of wheels I've built, and my clients can say the same.

I love this idea really. I have a Columbus SL frame hanging around as a cruiser but one day when I'm done racing it'll be my primary bike again.

I've tried 10 and 11s downtube and it's just annoying. I'm guessing 9 is the sweet spot. I found myself shifting two gears most of the time, basically defeating the purpose of having so many.

[dancinkozmo]

I'm guessing 9 is the sweet spot. I found myself shifting two gears most of the time, basically defeating the purpose of having so many.


running 9s shimano 105 with DA downtube shifters on my surly and it works perfectly

[AngryScientist]

the bike i have been primarily riding uses 9sp friction shift.

it's dead reliably and i have the world to choose from cogset wise.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bHHWm0urJTE/WLdt9DuTvqI/AAAAAAAACuc/0E7hbdi_GOwALgdaxSRpJifRtagyPLRGwCLcB/s1140/IMG_0167.JPG

[Bradford]

But not discontinued on ebay or on close out from web sites, so it is all still available for me. I just built a new frame with mostly 10 speed Ultegra and it was both painless and inexpensive.

Perhaps I'll get around to the new stuff when it is 10-15 years old, but I'm currently only up to the early 00's and doing just fine.

[choke]

I have two I would like to push back to DT shifters but really wonder at the prospect of friction shifting a 10 speed cassette.These are friction only and shift a 10sp cassette. They do have a large range of movement but I don't have any problem finding the right gear.

http://hampco.ciocctoo.com/070416d.jpg

[d_douglas]

I once bought a pair of wheels with the desireable Record OS hubs and Nemesis rims. I sold them as I needed to liquidate things in order to buy newer stuff and I still regret that. There was just something so beautiful about that combo, but I convinced myself that Tubies were just too much effort. Now I have CKr45s on HED belgiums and theyre very nice, but not the same badass mojo.

I know the new owner and he isn't using them, so I might be able to convince him to sell back to me :)

[choke]

I've been very vocal in my dislike of modern Campy stuff....I don't ride the current S brands so they aren't on my radar. It's not the function that I have a problem with, it's the aesthetics. Unless things take a major change, which I don't see as likely, I probably will never buy a new group again in my lifetime. Fortunately I have a good parts stash so I'll stick with the alloy stuff on any future builds.

As for the new stuff being better than the old...eh, I don't think it's a huge difference. I would say the biggest difference is the weight, the new stuff is certainly lighter, but beyond that I don't find it to be a huge improvement. I have one bike that has lower end Zeus and it works nearly as well as the 11sp I have. I don't race, so whatever performance difference there may be is meaningless in my use of a bicycle.

[pdonk]

High quality alloy 26 inch v brake rims.

Need a few sets and can't find them anywhere.

[fuzzalow]

Campagnolo 28 hole Silver Record OS Hubs

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/l8VCHhSaXNWpEfn06x_zeQpLL4yYpSSmOSfwtoyzLzx04N1cLP yzf1gZuYuUDLtvhZsQbylcWcwUyxQn9RHIVAdHpzq2PU5J4Etr uT1EGGVD9UuMCTiWZy4qjX43ioZ--OzKjuSRL2xtIjpV-Sm5bkPPbggD_WhabT7OXfucDk38fAXrG0qlYrNsa32Xy8U-5RlsDXHnwzUmYybcYdPRJUUF3dwZfuDeBU8voBNYF_XIIpeeFo OroiUdmUmQVm6wbiMLabVa9hcmrCc3C1JEMM3zJg5ffB3UMal_-pA07WaDPs_ZKQ3rTDa9dyFmjE9-FB7IDJPuEhv36iU8UGi2fUUWCJqp7UxCy0VrK0UZcV1J4_8_fT j0ZICwp-jBlaUbAqcqO0ZNih5qH1CQZ6aeTBymNzmXbtESbT7uhIHXQtCN RH7PgPzLV_ot7xGj-E9yN8qRkBE92aIwclA6jPSOBhDBjpJo6mscIW8gc_qgOPXG9Dx 3Mz1G9_y4opEzbLVu1YZkAw89sIwJvo78yjQiPiNjtr-20TRiUBRWljaBYBapvQh1oxMyzhnma6dECgPKdU22gMmE77VDE r0mMo7V-r4GKpRCDLBiBh6BaDrrG9c5qcs1airA=w651-h434-no

I suppose lament isn't quite the word as I've got a bunch of them. The irony is that it isn't the hubs for me that are unavailable, it is the dearth of 28H rims I can build them up with. How many 28 hole tubular rims are left these days? Not a one.

[paredown]

From my parts bin :)

Talk about a fistful of post(s)!

[HenryA]

Once they got to 9 speed and STI shifters development could have ended and I would have been just as happy as I am now. Maybe happier.

Maybe this can be the next hot trend - super nice machined aluminum parts like 20 or 30 years ago.

[bicycletricycle]

not one? belgiums and major toms no good?

I guess they are not the traditional box section type many people enjoy.


Campagnolo 28 hole Silver Record OS Hubs

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/l8VCHhSaXNWpEfn06x_zeQpLL4yYpSSmOSfwtoyzLzx04N1cLP yzf1gZuYuUDLtvhZsQbylcWcwUyxQn9RHIVAdHpzq2PU5J4Etr uT1EGGVD9UuMCTiWZy4qjX43ioZ--OzKjuSRL2xtIjpV-Sm5bkPPbggD_WhabT7OXfucDk38fAXrG0qlYrNsa32Xy8U-5RlsDXHnwzUmYybcYdPRJUUF3dwZfuDeBU8voBNYF_XIIpeeFo OroiUdmUmQVm6wbiMLabVa9hcmrCc3C1JEMM3zJg5ffB3UMal_-pA07WaDPs_ZKQ3rTDa9dyFmjE9-FB7IDJPuEhv36iU8UGi2fUUWCJqp7UxCy0VrK0UZcV1J4_8_fT j0ZICwp-jBlaUbAqcqO0ZNih5qH1CQZ6aeTBymNzmXbtESbT7uhIHXQtCN RH7PgPzLV_ot7xGj-E9yN8qRkBE92aIwclA6jPSOBhDBjpJo6mscIW8gc_qgOPXG9Dx 3Mz1G9_y4opEzbLVu1YZkAw89sIwJvo78yjQiPiNjtr-20TRiUBRWljaBYBapvQh1oxMyzhnma6dECgPKdU22gMmE77VDE r0mMo7V-r4GKpRCDLBiBh6BaDrrG9c5qcs1airA=w651-h434-no

I suppose lament isn't quite the word as I've got a bunch of them. The irony is that it isn't the hubs for me that are unavailable, it is the dearth of 28H rims I can build them up with. How many 28 hole tubular rims are left these days? Not a one.

[fuzzalow]

not one? belgiums and major toms no good?

I guess they are not the traditional box section type many people enjoy.

OK. Noted, I am not the best shopper for bike parts so I don't even know those rims existed. Those rims are neither aero or boxed, which is all I know and therefore was all I was looking for. Thanks for the heads up.

[bicycletricycle]

The HED rims are on sale right now.

OK. Noted, I am not the best shopper for bike parts so I don't even know those rims existed. Those rims are neither aero or boxed, which is all I know and therefore was all I was looking for. Thanks for the heads up.

[hollowgram5]

The HED rims are on sale right now.
Yup, $75 a hoop plus shipping.

[bigbill]

I think dual pivot brakes reached their zenith with Mavic SSC, as long as you were riding campy because they don't quick release. I've got them on the Serotta and had another set on the Pegoretti but installed a full Chorus group a few months and used the Chorus brakes.

In the early to mid 90's, I did a bunch of racing, all on 8 speed Dura Ace. Now that drivetrain is on a Gunnar Crosshairs that I use to race gravel grinders. It just won't quit. That bike also has a Dura Ace 7410 crankset on a PW bottom bracket and sports a wheelset with PW hubs. There is lighter, but not more durable.

[Louis]

Talk about a fistful of post(s)!

Good one!

[Bentley]

Yup, $75 a hoop plus shipping.

On sale? Where?

Thanks

Ray

[stien]

On sale? Where?

Thanks

Ray

Talking about the tubular version, sorry get everyone excited.

https://www.hedcycling.com/belgium-rim-brake-tubular/

[El Chaba]

To mention specific products that have never been surpassed, IMHO:
*Campagnolo 9 speed components
*Campagnolo 10 speed components
*Mavic SSC brakes (like those pictured above)
*ITM Millenium bars/stems
*Mavic GP4 and Mach 2 rims
*Mavic Cosmic Carbone SSC tubulars (with the al rim)
*Time Impact pedals
*Carnac shoes (the original made in France ones)
*Stronglight roller bearing headsets
....and many, many others

[texbike]

I can't say that there is really anything that I lament the passing of except nicely polished aluminum groupsets. Dura Ace 7400, vintage Record, and Superbe Pro come to mind as three examples.

Great lugged-steel frames are still available, as are great Ti, aluminum, and carbon options. Great headsets are still out there as are seatposts (Thomson as an example). Lots of wheel options from hand to factory-built. Not sure that I'm really lacking for options. However, it would be great to have more modern bar options with a more traditional bend to them.

With all of that said, I do believe that 74xx DA was the pinnacle of group development. The parts work perfectly, have a beautiful, jewel-like finish, and last forever.

Texbike

[fuzzalow]

The HED rims are on sale right now.

Thank you. I just ordered a pair of 28h. Get my Park truing stand outta storage and order me a bunch of CX-Rays and it'll be just like old times.

BTW, I like building with CX-Rays because they're the simplest to build concerning spoke windup and I like how they look.

[AngryScientist]

it is indeed too bad in these days of much stiffer rims that campy no longer offers drillings other than 32 for their hubs.

[froze]

Speaking of older stuff, one thing you must remember too is that today's STI type of shifting is nothing more than the 80's and 90's SIS shifting moved from the downtube to the brake levers, and in fact the downtube SIS shifts FASTER than the brake lever style STI, why is that? less cable length and bends. In fact my Superbe friction shifts nearly as fast as my modern STI. And the older stuff is less complicated therefore less to go wrong and easier to fix.

[d_douglas]

I can't say that there is really anything that I lament the passing of except nicely polished aluminum groupsets. Dura Ace 7400, vintage Record, and Superbe Pro come to mind as three examples.

Great lugged-steel frames are still available, as are great Ti, aluminum, and carbon options. Great headsets are still out there as are seatposts (Thomson as an example). Lots of wheel options from hand to factory-built. Not sure that I'm really lacking for options. However, it would be great to have more modern bar options with a more traditional bend to them.

With all of that said, I do believe that 74xx DA was the pinnacle of group development. The parts work perfectly, have a beautiful, jewel-like finish, and last forever.

Texbike

I agree. I don't dislike black/carbon components, but the option for nice silver stuff should be there. I collected an Athena UT group (that i just parted with a couple of months ago here) that is as close as you'd get these days. I kinda forgot about this, but I briefly installed the group on my Speedvagen with my Nemesis/Record wheels - it worked great of course, but somehow, that bike needed Carbon Campy, so I changed it back.

[mhespenheide]

If Shimano would sell a modern groupset with the finish of 74xx, shift quality of 5800 (or the like), a 5-arm crankset like the 7700, and make it 2x9 (or 3x9), I'd be a happy rider.

[stien]

I'd be willing to bet 7700 with the new Shimano coated cables would be awfully nice.

[cachagua]

I'd be willing to bet 7700 with the new Shimano coated cables would be awfully nice.

You'd win. I just put 7700 on a frame I picked up here, and it's -->fantastic. Even without coated cables.

[54ny77]

if you're so inclined.....send a modern groupset to these guys, albeit completely disassembled, for transforming into something silver & shiny. at least from a coating perspective.

http://joescarbonrepair.com/



If Shimano would sell a modern groupset with the finish of 74xx, shift quality of 5800 (or the like), a 5-arm crankset like the 7700, and make it 2x9 (or 3x9), I'd be a happy rider.

[bocobiking]

Take away nostalgia and sometimes false nostalgia for a time that never actually existed and new stuff is generally better than old stuff. This isn't universally true, but functionally, my new components and bikes are simply better than my old ones.

Case in point. I've got an unhealthy love of Look 585s. They're great bikes. They're also essentially (highly) evolved versions of their earliest carbon bikes - carbon tubes and lugged construction. Is it a nice way to make a bike? Sure. It's also not how today's top bikes are constructed and they are not as 'good' as my Giant, which is monocoque construction and much, much stiffer and really gives up nothing in ride quality.

People (myself included) make purchases and do things for emotional reasons. That's OK. But by an real measure today's bikes are better than yesterday's bikes. There are exceptions, but take the emotion out of it and I think most people would agree.

My 105 kit on one of my bikes works better than any high end, expensive stuff I had 10-15 years ago. Had it existed in 1990 it would have been wildly revolutionary for it's excellence and technological superiority.

Nothing wrong with being emotional about stuff. But don't mistake emotional attachment with objectivity.

How many Camaros and Challengers and Mustangs are being sold these days? Zillions. Why? Because they bring their buyers back to another era. One that really only existed in their minds. Old Camaros and Challengers and Mustangs were junky cars.

It's called marketing and that's all about emotion.

Or maybe marketing is what is driving the emotional sense that "modern" technology is vastly superior to "vintage" technology. To say that one is better than the other, you would need to define "better," and then ignore the downsides of the one you are promoting.

[saab2000]

Or maybe marketing is what is driving the emotional sense that "modern" technology is vastly superior to "vintage" technology. To say that one is better than the other, you would need to define "better," and then ignore the downsides of the one you are promoting.

Well, better is no more pitted headsets, no more broken axles, more (immensely more) gearing options, greater precision, no more hot feet due to clips and straps and shoes using 1920s technology, being able to shift from the handlebars in a very precise, quick finger flick, vastly superior braking, lighter and stronger components, easily as durable, etc.

Better is difficult to quantify entirely, but there's no doubt in my mind that today's components are better than what I used when I started riding in the early 1980s for the reasons I mentioned.

[ftf]

Well, better is no more pitted headsets, no more broken axles, more (immensely more) gearing options, greater precision, no more hot feet due to clips and straps and shoes using 1920s technology, being able to shift from the handlebars in a very precise, quick finger flick, vastly superior braking, lighter and stronger components, easily as durable, etc.

Better is difficult to quantify entirely, but there's no doubt in my mind that today's components are better than what I used when I started riding in the early 1980s for the reasons I mentioned.

Yup, today's stuff is better than what I had when I started racing, and it wasn't really that long ago. Anyone who thinks that things haven't gotten better, especially at the low-mid end, just hasn't been paying attention. I paid roughly 1500 dollars for my first bike, and I paid about 1500 dollars for my current everyday rain whatever bike, and the new bike BLOWS the old bike away in every possible measure.

[John H.]

I admit that I used to be a huge fan of some of the older parts.
Mostly older style saddles like Turbos, Turbomatic, Tinanio 200/Strada and the like. I also used to ride them.
I also liked some old components. 7400, 7700, 7800 cranks, 7401 pedals and Campy Ti and carbon seat posts.

But somewhere along the way something happened. The old stuff was no longer compatible with the new stuff and the new stuff was damn good.
Even the seatposts- If you can't find the perfect ratchet on a Campy post- the saddle won't sit in the correct spot.

So I moved fully in the camp of new gear. The only old stuff that I still have is a few pairs of NOS Shimano Dura-Ace 7401 pedals, a few turbomatics, and a few Strada saddles. But I have no desire to use any of this stuff- I just have it.

The only thing I still like about "the good old days" was the freedom from worry.
My bike was always as good as anyone I was racing against- All I needed was a solid set of box section tubulars with some Vittoria Corsa CX tires.
Nowadays it is an arms race.

I cut my teeth racing on steel bikes with lugs- Most of us wanted something lighter as soon as we could get it- that meant TIG welded steel and eventually Ti-
Because of this I like the look of a modern lugged bike- But I don't think I would want one. To me, it is the same thing I could get in 1989.

[bocobiking]

Are 10 speeds better than 6? Would 20 speeds be better than 11? Is 20 mph better than 18? Is a 22lb steel bike better than a 16lb carbon fiber one? Is shifting with the flick of a finger better than with the push of a hand? Is electronic shifting an improvement? Would automatic shifting be even better? Are sealed bearing hubs better than cup and cone ones?

Is automatic shifting in a car better than stick shifting? Is a society based on the automobile better than one based around the wagon . . . or the bicycle? Are we better off now that our lives are regulated by clocks accurate to 1/10 of a second; or were we better off with sundials? Are our screens improving our lives?

I submit that there are no objective answers to these questions; any answers are only subjective. One can find good reasons to argue either side of these issues. And IMHO, we should always question the assumption that newer is better, and question how much marketing subtly imbues us with this assumption. Often when something is gained with new technology, something is also lost.

[ftf]

Are 10 speeds better than 6? Would 20 speeds be better than 11? Is 20 mph better than 18? Is a 22lb steel bike better than a 16lb carbon fiber one? Is shifting with the flick of a finger better than with the push of a hand? Is electronic shifting an improvement? Would automatic shifting be even better? Are sealed bearing hubs better than cup and cone ones?

Is automatic shifting in a car better than stick shifting? Is a society based on the automobile better than one based around the wagon . . . or the bicycle? Are we better off now that our lives are regulated by clocks accurate to 1/10 of a second; or were we better off with sundials? Are our screens improving our lives?

I submit that there are no objective answers to these questions; any answers are only subjective. One can find good reasons to argue either side of these issues. And IMHO, we should always question the assumption that newer is better, and question how much marketing subtly imbues us with this assumption. Often when something is gained with new technology, something is also lost.

Actually the performance characteristics of a bicycle can be measured, tested, and quantified. Weight, aerodynamics, stiffness to weight. I think a lot of people who get all teary eyed about the past forget the simple truth, these bicycles, road bikes, are for racing, thus faster is better by that empirical measure.

screens vs no screens, actually can be in some ways as well, read Susan Greenfield's book on it, I have a feeling you'll be all about it.

[RudAwkning]

To mention specific products that have never been surpassed, IMHO:
*Campagnolo 9 speed components
*Campagnolo 10 speed components

That made me lol :)

[pdmtong]

I think dual pivot brakes reached their zenith with Mavic SSC, as long as you were riding campy because they don't quick release. I've got them on the Serotta and had another set on the Pegoretti but installed a full Chorus group a few months and used the Chorus brakes.

To mention specific products that have never been surpassed, IMHO:
*Campagnolo 9 speed components
*Campagnolo 10 speed components
*Mavic SSC brakes (like those pictured above)
*ITM Millenium bars/stems
*Mavic GP4 and Mach 2 rims
*Mavic Cosmic Carbone SSC tubulars (with the al rim)
*Time Impact pedals
*Carnac shoes (the original made in France ones)
*Stronglight roller bearing headsets
....and many, many others

I had four pairs of Mavic SSC: two are installed, two I sold. While some members report compatibility with the newer wider rims, none of mine fit (ex: Belgium C2, new Bora) so the two sets I was hoarding for future are gone. sadly.

[choke]

I think a lot of people who get all teary eyed about the past forget the simple truth, these bicycles, road bikes, are for racing, thus faster is better by that empirical measure.I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years since I have never once participated in a race while riding my bicycle.

[bocobiking]

Actually the performance characteristics of a bicycle can be measured, tested, and quantified. Weight, aerodynamics, stiffness to weight. I think a lot of people who get all teary eyed about the past forget the simple truth, these bicycles, road bikes, are for racing, thus faster is better by that empirical measure.

screens vs no screens, actually can be in some ways as well, read Susan Greenfield's book on it, I have a feeling you'll be all about it.

1. I'm not teary eyed about the past. Neither do I think the present is objectively better than the past. My point is that an advance in technology can have hidden costs, even in something as inconsequential as the shifting mechanism on a bike.

2. Yes weight, aerodynamics, and stiffness can be quantified. But my point is that whether this information is relevant is a subjective question; not everyone cares about these variables, or sees "better" as defined by numbers. Since I'm not a racer, just an avid road cyclist, the ride qualities and durability of steel make its weight and speed irrelevant, to me.

3. Certainly you can't mean that all contemporary road bicycles are all built for the purpose of racing.

4. I don't know Susan Greenfield, so I can't tell if "you'll be all about it" is in the same vein as "all teary eyed about the past": an attack on Luddites like me.

[paredown]

I'm no Luddite about this--I love Ergos--they were the answer to the question I partially answered with Campy barends BITD, dual pivot brakes--amen brother, love the new, more durable rims and much else besides. No toe clips and straps (and self-installed nail on cleats that ruined my left knee)--sign me up!

I do think though that the beauty of the highly polished alloy component set was an aesthetic high water mark--it is that perfect realization in a relatively hard to work material of form and function. Dad was a machinist, and I look at the best of the Campy and Dura-Ace designs and I see it through my father's eyes--and it is beautiful.

OTOH, you can see that the carbon guys are freeing themselves from constraints imposed by steel & other alloys in frame design, and then the plasticity of the frame material frees you up for other experiments like direct mount brakes and other cool things. Not going to be for me, really--but I like to think that the 19 year old boy racer version of me is lusting after the new kit, just like we lusted after the Campy stuff--to go fast, to own something beautiful and cool.

It's a shifting margin, and someone else's fantasy now--I'll cheer from the sidelines and ride my Centaur 10 alloy stuff.

[bigbill]

I had four pairs of Mavic SSC: two are installed, two I sold. While some members report compatibility with the newer wider rims, none of mine fit (ex: Belgium C2, new Bora) so the two sets I was hoarding for future are gone. sadly.

I use them on a wheelset with Easton R90 SL rims. I'd like more clearance on the wider wheels and that's why I installed new Chorus brakes on the Pegoretti. Clearance between the top of a tire and the brake. A 25mm Pro4 is 30mm on the Easton rims. The Serotta never sees the wide wheels, last year I got RT to build up a set of wheels with Ambrosio Excellence rims for that bike.

[FlashUNC]

I think dual pivot brakes reached their zenith with Mavic SSC, as long as you were riding campy because they don't quick release. I've got them on the Serotta and had another set on the Pegoretti but installed a full Chorus group a few months and used the Chorus brakes.

In the early to mid 90's, I did a bunch of racing, all on 8 speed Dura Ace. Now that drivetrain is on a Gunnar Crosshairs that I use to race gravel grinders. It just won't quit. That bike also has a Dura Ace 7410 crankset on a PW bottom bracket and sports a wheelset with PW hubs. There is lighter, but not more durable.

I was a Mavic SSC devotee, then I tried eeBrakes. Not even close. Superior in every way and don't weigh the equivalent of a mid-70s Cadillac.

Come to think of it, should probably offer up my two pairs for sale.

[froze]

Yup, today's stuff is better than what I had when I started racing, and it wasn't really that long ago. Anyone who thinks that things haven't gotten better, especially at the low-mid end, just hasn't been paying attention. I paid roughly 1500 dollars for my first bike, and I paid about 1500 dollars for my current everyday rain whatever bike, and the new bike BLOWS the old bike away in every possible measure.

The below is just my opinion based on 40 years plus of riding, it's perfectly fine to disagree, like I said just an opinion based on personal observations over 40 years.

I agree that low and especially mid level bikes from the 80's are far inferior to low to and especially mid level bikes today in all aspects except one-simplicity of repair. Low end modern bikes like Walmart bikes are actually far inferior to older low end bikes because of reliability, today's Walmart bike will be lucky to make it 5 years whereas the old low end ones are still around today. But if you are talking about low end bikes found in bike shops and not at retail stores then yes those type of modern low end bikes are better than they were back in the 80's. On the upper mid to high end level of bikes there are tradeoffs that some of the older stuff was better and some of the newer stuff is better and some of it is a draw.

I think modern wheels are far superior to what we had in the 80's.

I think modern dual pivot brakes vs single pivot brakes is a draw, and in fact in dry conditions rim brakes vs disc brakes is also a draw (more about this on the last paragraph why I think this).

Frame wise is argumentative, I like steel for its ride comfort, but if I was racing today I would choose aluminum if on a tight budget or Carbon fiber if I wasn't. But one frame material vs another isn't really important in this comparison since in the 80's the majority of frame material raced on was steel, AL was short lived and quickly replaced by CF which is now what the majority race on.

Cranksets are better today due to more stiffness.

Hubs are basically unchanged thus are a draw, as are headsets even though there is now threadless vs threaded from the past, but bearings are bearings and they both are smooth.

Saddles, hmm, another draw.

Tires are far superior today than they were in the 80's.

Stems, threaded or non-threaded, I guess for pure stiffness the modern threadless design is a bit better but the simplicity and the beauty of a quill stem is unbeatable, but the ability to swap handlebars easily (though there was a quill design that could do this as well) is a plus for those who want to do that sort of thing.

Pedals modern clipless design has been shown to be better for performance, but you have to keep replacing cleats with the newer clipless design about once a year whereas you never had to do that with clips and strap design, so the cost to maintain the clipless is quite a bit higher even though straps would break on the old design, also the clipless pedal is more complicated with springs and latches that do foul up and break, so reliability and simplicity is definitely in favor of the old style.

Derailleurs and shifters. On the mechanical side not much is different, having both several friction, several SIS, and a couple STI/Ergo...SIS was the fastest of the three, really good friction like the Suntour Superbe (the best ever made for friction) shifts equally as fast as STI and Ergo in the hands of a capable person, the only drawback to friction was reaching to the downtube to shift but barend shifters eliminated that issue. Front derailleurs shifting abilities always sucked no matter if friction, SIS, or STI/ERGO, they all shifted the front derailleur what I consider to be poorly. Reliability of the friction and SIS was far better than modern STI/ERGO. Electronic shifting is the fastest including the front, but complication went way up and reliability went down, long term issues will not be in for another 10 years, but phased out parts could make an entire drivetrain obsolete a lot sooner than mechanical systems. Plus you have to depend on a battery to be charged and keep it's charge.

Modern gear clusters with their more gears is great due to keeping you in your sweet spot for RPM's, but due to thinner gears and thinner chains the durability decreased.

Disk brakes vs rim brakes. I actually tested this with a another rider who was on a 3 month old brand new bike with Ultegra disc brakes vs my 4 year old 105 rim brakes with KoolStop Salmon pads. We ran 6 tests, 3 at 20 mph and 3 at 30 mph, and it was draw, sometimes I stopped a wee bit shorter and sometimes he stopped a wee bit shorter, how much is a wee bit? no more than a foot of difference, why those stops varied between us? probably reaction time. He and I were close in weight, he had 25mm tires all around and I had 23 on the front and 25 on the rear, he was using Conti GP4000s and I was using Hutchinson Intensive (non tubeless). I'm pretty sure I would have lost all 6 times if I had the original Shimano pads as those always felt mushy to me which is why I replaced them).

[El Chaba]

Or maybe marketing is what is driving the emotional sense that "modern" technology is vastly superior to "vintage" technology. To say that one is better than the other, you would need to define "better," and then ignore the downsides of the one you are promoting.

That nails it. Take modern threadless bottom brackets(...I won't use the word "standards")....often lauded for their stiffness, yet this forum and others have featured nearly constantly threads describing the woes of clicking noises that can't be silenced, short bearing life, etc. Modern headsets are similar. I almost never see brinneling on them, but I have been brought dozens by friends, etc. to solve problems of chronic loosening- an issue which eventually results in the ruining of the frame. There have been significant advancements in bicycles, but when comparing the benefits you have to compare to what is being replaced and not compare to some component from back in the stone age.

[galgal]

Still have 1994 Campy Record w/couple of Chorus bits on a bike. Still works flawlessly and looks very nice. Have considered "upgrades" but just can't do it. And yes, there is an emotional attachment. "Objectively", have their ever been more beautiful wheels/hubs than the old 8sp silver aero Shamals?

[froze]

Still have 1994 Campy Record w/couple of Chorus bits on a bike. Still works flawlessly and looks very nice. Have considered "upgrades" but just can't do it. And yes, there is an emotional attachment. "Objectively", have their ever been more beautiful wheels/hubs than the old 8sp silver aero Shamals?

Nice bike, and like you I also liked the look of Shamals but never got to own a pair.

[oliver1850]

I suppose lament isn't quite the word as I've got a bunch of them. The irony is that it isn't the hubs for me that are unavailable, it is the dearth of 28H rims I can build them up with. How many 28 hole tubular rims are left these days? Not a one.

Not sure what your requirements are, but both of these are available with 28 spoke holes:

Kinlin TB20

http://www.bikehubstore.com/C472w-p/tb415.htm

Kinlin TB25

http://www.prowheelbuilder.com/kinlin-tb-25-700c-black-rim.html

[Gummee]

Nice bike, and like you I also liked the look of Shamals but never got to own a pair.

I had a pair of that gen Cosmics. VERY fast once you got em up to speed, but it was a sonofagun to get em there.

Less a crit wheel and more a circuit race wheel.

I've been in this game since the late 80s. IME things have gotten steadily better. There's really no such thing as a 'bad bike' any more if you buy from a shop. It's all a continuum of 'how good is it?'

I don't miss single pivot brakes.
I don't miss clips and straps
I don't miss friction shifting
I don't miss real chamois chamois-es
I don't miss helmets with a spandex cover
I don't miss forged quill stems (remind me to tell y'all about the first Syncros stem I bought and how I darn near levered my wheel out from under me in a sprint...)

etc

I DO miss skinny tubed bikes and the aesthetic of the polished parts. So much so that I had a Spirit-tubed bike built last summer. I ride that one lots! Now, someone please find me a PDM Concorde with a 54cm TT wouldya?!

M

[ultraman6970]

My only complain are the discontinuing of the campagnolo aluminum seatposts and shimano ultegra and dura ace cartridge threaded headsets.

Nothing come close to those headsets and nothing will, not even campagnolo one nor CK or anything else.

As for seatposts, even the athena ones look awesome compared with other brands, never had a single problem with them either. Even the carbon ones worked fine for me, which people tend to complain a little bit.

My honor list of parts that are already gone are the campagnolo record C cranks, those things were just pure art and I add here the shimano dura ace squared tapper BBs, those things are just awesome.

[galgal]

I DO miss skinny tubed bikes and the aesthetic of the polished parts

I'm with you there. Nor do I miss the things you mentioned. But are all bikes and components now better than the past? Can't make that claim myself, and not only because I can't claim such extensive knowledge. The test of time will tell.
As for the Shamals, it will be a sad day when Campy no longer offers 8sp cogs. I'm still running 8sp on that bike mostly for the wheels.

[froze]

I don't miss single pivot brakes.
I don't miss clips and straps
I don't miss friction shifting
I don't miss real chamois chamois-es
I don't miss helmets with a spandex cover
I don't miss forged quill stems (remind me to tell y'all about the first Syncros stem I bought and how I darn near levered my wheel out from under me in a sprint...)

etc

I DO miss skinny tubed bikes and the aesthetic of the polished parts. So much so that I had a Spirit-tubed bike built last summer. I ride that one lots! Now, someone please find me a PDM Concorde with a 54cm TT wouldya?!

M

The best quality single pivot brakes like the Suntour Superbe made by Dia Compe are just as good as dual pivot brakes, I have both and I can't tell the difference, modulation, stopping power, action, they're all the same.

Clips and straps are slightly less convenient but they didn't have parts to wear out like clipless where you have to replace the shoe cleats every year or two, or the springs that most models use break. The clips and straps were very reliable with nothing to break except the strap which were cheap to buy.

Friction shifting believe it or not if it's an upper end Suntour and if it's being used by a capable friction user can shift just as fast as STI and Ergo, in fact the SIS system actually shifted faster than STI and Ergo even though STI and Ergo use the same SIS system, they just transferred the shifting from the down tube to the brake levers, but it's the fact that the STI and Ergo cables are longer with more bends actually slows down the shift a tad. In addition that again the complication bar was upped and there is a higher fail rate with the STI and Ergo over friction.

Real chamois...fine I don't miss that either but I did have some really nice real chamois shorts back in the day but I was a lot younger and maybe my butt just didn't give a damn!

Helmets have indeed improved over the years.

I've never had a problem with quill forged stems, but I have with threadless design, and I hear people complaining all the time that the system clicks, and there has been issues with it ruining the frame. But quill could also ruin a frame if it was over tightened, but quill does look a lot nicer. Nothing looks tackier than a threadless design using stackers to get more height out of the stem.

skinny tube frames are still being made today, so there isn't much to miss, and you can buy vintage frames all over the place. But modern skinny tube frames look crappy with a threadless headset, they need the graceful look of a quill stem.

[Gummee]

I upgraded my blue 105 (6sp era) single pivot brakes to something dual pivot and got warned by the LBS: 'don't grab them too hard...'

So what did I do? got into a situation that required me to grab a handful of brake and WHOA! did I stop much faster on the dual pivots. Didn't manage to launch myself over the bars, but it was touch and go for a split second

Nope. Don't miss the single pivot days.

Personally, I haven't had an issue with headsets loosening, so can't comment on that. Those AL cupped Shimano headsets were very nice, but the cat's meow were the American Classic Tri-Locks. Still have a NIB (IIRC) top cap/cup somewhere in my bin o stuff.

Lusted after C-Record, but couldn't afford it. College student budget ya know

M

[froze]

I upgraded my blue 105 (6sp era) single pivot brakes to something dual pivot and got warned by the LBS: 'don't grab them too hard...'

So what did I do? got into a situation that required me to grab a handful of brake and WHOA! did I stop much faster on the dual pivots. Didn't manage to launch myself over the bars, but it was touch and go for a split second

Nope. Don't miss the single pivot days.

Personally, I haven't had an issue with headsets loosening, so can't comment on that. Those AL cupped Shimano headsets were very nice, but the cat's meow were the American Classic Tri-Locks. Still have a NIB (IIRC) top cap/cup somewhere in my bin o stuff.

Lusted after C-Record, but couldn't afford it. College student budget ya know

M

All you are experiencing is the quicker reaction of the dual pivot responding to input vs most single pivot brakes, but if you have the same pads on both calipers you would stop in the exact same amount of distance from the same speed. The quicker response of the dual pivot makes them seem like they're more powerful but they're not, braking abilities on decent bikes are limited to tire adhesion and that's it, even with disk brakes. There is no magic between brake systems. Yes you could have a cheap pair of Walmart type of single pivot brakes and be dealing with caliper flex which would hamper braking abilities, or cheap quality pads vs high quality pads, or a crappy low end tire vs a sticker higher end tire...but even then you can still lock up tires with a cheap flexing walmart bike brake, or cheap pads, or crappy tires, but it still boils down to tire adhesion, thus the crappy tires will be slippery and could slide quite a bit and take longer to stop but that won't have a darn thing to do with the pads, single vs dual, flexi calipers etc; the rest like cheap pads, flexi calipers, etc simply means more hand pressure is required to lock up the tires.

Tire adhesion is subject to quality of tires, road surface conditions, and load being exerted on tires. Once you've locked up the tires you've reached max stopping power and any type of brake is capable of doing that.

Really the only main differences between most single pivot brakes and all dual pivot brakes are several things, first dual pivots is ease to hand pressure to activate brakes or in other words they have more mechanical advantage which means you can reach full braking force with less effort, and ease of keeping the dual pivot brake calipers centered. But there is a disadvantages to dual pivot brakes vs single pivot brakes that no one really talks about, is the fact that dual pivots don't track imperfect rims as well as single pivots, and this causes dual pivots to have pulsating sensation; and single pivot brakes are actually lighter than dual pivots; and it's actually easier to modulate a single pivot brake vs dual pivot, in fact on my dual pivot brakes I had to adjust the calipers a bit further from the wheel (open the calipers a bit) so initial hand response wasn't so instant and I can modulate them better.

For a good read on this see this:
http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/2013/10/endangered-species-single-pivot.html

[kingpin75s]

Really the only main differences between most single pivot brakes and all dual pivot brakes are several things, first dual pivots is ease to hand pressure to activate brakes or in other words they have more mechanical advantage which means you can reach full braking force with less effort, and ease of keeping the dual pivot brake calipers centered. But there is a disadvantages to dual pivot brakes vs single pivot brakes that no one really talks about, is the fact that dual pivots don't track imperfect rims as well as single pivots, and this causes dual pivots to have pulsating sensation; and single pivot brakes are actually lighter than dual pivots; and it's actually easier to modulate a single pivot brake vs dual pivot, in fact on my dual pivot brakes I had to adjust the calipers a bit further from the wheel (open the calipers a bit) so initial hand response wasn't so instant and I can modulate them better.

For a good read on this see this:
http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.com/2013/10/endangered-species-single-pivot.html

This has been on my bookmark list for awhile and is a good read.

As a fan of center pull brakes and someone who still generally specs 9 speed on new custom bikes (occasionally 8 or 10), I am always willing to look past the current dogma and experiment for myself. I prefer modulation over raw power and am hoping a nicely setup single pivot system will work well for me.

Looking for the right frame and opportunity to test out my 7400 brakes with 7401 levers.

[kingpin75s]

I thought this was going to be another thread about caliper brakes.

Don't worry. We made it there ;)

[happycampyer]

Don't worry. We made it there ;)

“Eventually, all threads merge into one, and a discussion of caliper brakes runs through it."

(with apologies to Norman MacLean)

[pdmtong]

I was a Mavic SSC devotee, then I tried eeBrakes. Not even close. Superior in every way and don't weigh the equivalent of a mid-70s Cadillac.



Come to think of it, should probably offer up my two pairs for sale.



Uh-oh. Been curious about EE
I better sell more stuff to feed the addiction

[martl]

Disk brakes vs rim brakes. I actually tested this with a another rider who was on a 3 month old brand new bike with Ultegra disc brakes vs my 4 year old 105 rim brakes with KoolStop Salmon pads. We ran 6 tests, 3 at 20 mph and 3 at 30 mph, and it was draw, sometimes I stopped a wee bit shorter and sometimes he stopped a wee bit shorter, how much is a wee bit? no more than a foot of difference, why those stops varied between us? probably reaction time. He and I were close in weight, he had 25mm tires all around and I had 23 on the front and 25 on the rear, he was using Conti GP4000s and I was using Hutchinson Intensive (non tubeless). I'm pretty sure I would have lost all 6 times if I had the original Shimano pads as those always felt mushy to me which is why I replaced them).

In optimal conditions, a good "legacy" caliper brake is strong enough to stop the wheel to blocking. Which means regardless of disc or caliper, the limiting factor is tire friction and center-of-mass position (as the latter lies *above* the front wheel center and the short wheelbase, the "nosedive" can and will happen if one brakes too hard on the front wheel).
Neither is changed by the type of brake you use.

The quality of a bike brake is not so much determined by absolute stopping power, but by the range between "slows down a bit" and "maximum braking". I got a "gravel bike" with disks recently and i feel they are harder to modulate han calipers.

I was a Mavic SSC devotee, then I tried eeBrakes. Not even close. Superior in every way and don't weigh the equivalent of a mid-70s Cadillac.

I love my SSCs, my pair is always on the current "nicest bike in the garage". That is more for their looks than for anything else. I love them, but i would be able to find a replacement easily.


I don't miss single pivot brakes.


The single pivot has the distinct advantage to be floating, whereas dual pivot ones are fixed. This makes a difference if your rim is not entirely well trued; then a floating type of brake will still have constant brake power, but a fixed one will "oscillate". Less of an issue today due to improved wheel technology, i agree.
Also, double pivots provide much less "travel" that single pivots, which led to much thinner brake pads which are more agrressive to provide decent service life at the cost of rim wear, which wasn't all that much of an issue in the single pivot days.

The 74** series Dura Ace single pivots were brilliant brakes and i wouldn't mind using them on a modern bike for serious alpine riding.

[oldpotatoe]

Rim changes

DT465/415 begat DT440 which is being replaced by DT411....add in another 18mm ID rim, 511, and DT460..all good rims but really like the 440, hope the 411 isn't 'too light'...

[Bob Ross]

DT465/415 begat DT440 which is being replaced by DT411....add in another 18mm ID rim, 511, and DT460..all good rims but really like the 440, hope the 411 isn't 'too light'...

Yeah, ^^^this really pisses me off. I have several sets of DT hubs that show no signs of dying, so I keep getting them rebuilt into new wheelsets...but every time I need to get them built up I have to find a different DT Swiss rim because the last model I loved has been discontinued! Every. Single. Time.

[ColonelJLloyd]

Yeah, ^^^this really pisses me off. I have several sets of DT hubs that show no signs of dying, so I keep getting them rebuilt into new wheelsets...but every time I need to get them built up I have to find a different DT Swiss rim because the last model I loved has been discontinued! Every. Single. Time.

It doesn't make financial sense to simply make a new wheel and pay for the tooling unless there is real improvement in some way. So, it would make sense that the evolving rim models are superior to the preceding generation in most aspects. Incremental gains, but gains nonetheless.

[R3awak3n]

I keep on coming in this thread reading the title as "lamenting the discoloration of good parts" lol. Then I get in and I am like, oh its this thread.

[Black Dog]

It doesn't make financial sense to simply make a new wheel and pay for the tooling unless there is real improvement in some way. So, it would make sense that the evolving rim models are superior to the preceding generation in most aspects. Incremental gains, but gains nonetheless.

The marketing department may not agree with this logic. ;)

[hollowgram5]

I keep on coming in this thread reading the title as "lamenting the discoloration of good parts" lol. Then I get in and I am like, oh its this thread.
The bad paint and coloration thread is out there somewhere.. you might know the OP...

[R3awak3n]

The bad paint and coloration thread is out there somewhere.. you might know the OP...

I loled. and oh snap, dig it in deep, right where it hurts ahha

[cderalow]

Still have 1994 Campy Record w/couple of Chorus bits on a bike. Still works flawlessly and looks very nice. Have considered "upgrades" but just can't do it. And yes, there is an emotional attachment. "Objectively", have their ever been more beautiful wheels/hubs than the old 8sp silver aero Shamals?

your top tube appears to have melted sir.

[galgal]

your top tube appears to have melted sir.

As did the seat tube ;)