Custom Shimano 11-Speed Cassette?

[GregL]

Has anyone put together a custom 11-speed Shimano cassette? I'm contemplating a mix of a 12-25 and an 11-28 to make a 12-28. Stock 12-28 cassettes are currently offered only in Dura Ace. I would make the custom cassette out of Ultegra parts. Curious as to how well this would shift before purchasing a 12-25. I already have an 11-28.

Thanks,
Greg

[MagicHour]

Ive turned over doing the same but never did. One thing you might run into is that there may be differing ramp profiles for some of the cogs on certain cassettes. If you want to have a transition from say a 16-17-18, you might not have the same ramping as a factory cassette would, or maybe you need a third cassette or spare cog to get that. Whether that effects shifting or not -not sure. I'd guess it wouldn't be a problem.... or cause massive chain suck that totals your frame :D jk.

Otherwise should work fine. If you google Shimano Ultegra Dealer Manual, you can find a parts diagram (I think it's the EV .pdf) for those cassettes and show which cogs are shared between models.

[steelbikerider]

I've done it. It works fine. Use the 12-17 from from the 12-25 and the 19-28 from the 11-28.

[GregL]

I've done it. It works fine. Use the 12-17 from from the 12-25 and the 19-28 from the 11-28.
Excellent! That's exactly what I plan to do. I need an 11 tooth once or twice a year. The 28 get used regularly... Thanks!

Greg

[weiwentg]

I found this thread when I was thinking of buying a Dura Ace 12-28 cassette, then just substituting the steel cogs from a 105/Ultegra 11-28 or 11-30 cassette in.

The dealer's manual for the current generation Ultegra and DA cassettes is here (https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-RACS001-01-ENG.pdf). Cogs are suffixed with A, B, or C depending on what I suppose is the cogs they're supposed to work with. On the DA 12-28, the sequence is:

12B 13B 14A 15A 16A 17C 19C 21C 23C 25B 28B (bolded top 5 are ti cogs; top 3 are pinned, next 2 are pinned)

Both Ultegra and DA 11-28 cassettes have this sequence:

11A 12A 13A 14A 15A 17B 19C 21C 23C 25B 28A (top 3 pinned, next 2 pinned)

So, it seems to me like 17B and 17C cogs should have their ramps aligned with a 19C cog. So, if you want to grow a 12-28 Ultegra cassette from a 11-28 Ultegra and a 12-28 DA, you can do that. If I want to take the 12-17 cogs and graft on the top 5 cogs from an 11-30, it appears that the ramps should also be correctly lined up.

On the Ultegra 12-25 cassette, you have a 17C cog, then 18B 19D etc. So, it appears that this would end up with a properly shifting 12-28 cassette as well. Anyway, this thread did point out to me that the Ultegra 12-25 is an option, and it will be cheaper, and I could use the original 12-25 for the indoor trainer.

With 52/36 chainrings, I haven't ever had occasion to use the 11 in the Midwest. I might not be here forever, but from experience, I think I'd be OK on a 52/12 big gear, even chasing down a mountain. I do find that I miss the 16t cog a lot, even when riding solo.

So, I hope that when Shimano goes 12s, they put the 16t cogs back in. I thought I remembered that one of Campy's 11s cassettes was something like 12-30 or 12-32, but it seems like they currently only offer a 12-27. It's good to see that both Campy and SRAM have more than one 12s cassette with a 16t cog.

[dddd]

Thanks to this thread, I suddenly have 12-25t and 11-28t cassettes waiting to be married.:banana:

[chrisroph]

I've done it. You can also combine a 12-25 with an 11-30 for a 12-30. That's what i've mostly been riding.

[Upcountry]

I need to round up all of my cassettes and see what I can combine to make my ideal "daily" cassette. I've been running the 11-32 R8000 and the 11-34 HG700 most of the time as I live about halfway up a pretty steep category 2 climb(w/ 1 mile of over 12% average). I want to figure out something similar to the 3T Bailout cassette... With tight gears down the lower half of the block, and increasing gaps up high. The possibilities look pretty limited due to the pinning of the cogs, and the lack of a shimano 11-36(of which the upper/mid cogs would be helpful). It seems that something like 12,13,14,15,17,19,23,27,30,34 would be do-able, but not perfect. I guess 12 or 13 speed cassettes will be the ticket... :confused:

[Upcountry]

I stumbled across this, and love the gaps of the 11-32 but no way can I justify paying $300 for a cassette!!!

https://rotoramerica.com/products/11-speed-cassette

[SoSmellyAir]

My Cannondale Synapse came with FSA 50/34 subcompact chain rings and an 11-speed Shimano 105 (CS-5800) 11-32 cassette. Like many, I do not recall ever using the 11T or the 12T cogs. The 32T cog sometimes allows me to avoid shifting onto the small chain ring, but is hardly mandatory for my local terrain.

An Ultegra 14-28 cassette offers closer ratios in the middle, but is limited to a top speed of 28.5 mph at a cadence of 100 rpm. According to Strava, I have exceeded 30 mph occasionally (during GPS glitches when going downhill with a tailwind). A 12-25 cassette likewise offers closer ratios in the middle, but might make it a bit difficult to start uphill from a standstill in the big chain ring.

So a 12-28 cassette may be the Goldilocks setup but Shimano only offers a Dura-Ace version. It seems a little wasteful to buy one for a bike with a 105 groupset. There are also numerous online customer reviews complaining about the creaking when on the two biggest cogs in Dura-Ace cassettes. So I began looking into building a 12-28 cassette from other Shimano cassettes, and stumbled upon this thread.

The information in Shimano Dealer’s Manual (https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-RACS001-01-ENG.pdf) suggests that its Ultegra 12-25 cassette and its Ultegra 11-28 cassette can be combined into a 12-28 cassette.

Dura-Ace CS-R9100 12T-28T

12B 13B 14A 15A 16A 17C (19C 21C 23C) (25B 28A)

Ultegra CS-R8000 11T-28T

11A 12A 13A 14A 15A 17B (19C 21C) (23C 25B 28A)

Ultegra CS-R8000 12T-25T

12A 13A 14A 15A 16A 17C (18B 19D) (21B 23B 25A)

The concerns about Hyperglide shift ramp alignment (for smoother shifting) can be addressed by combining the six smallest cogs from the 12-25 cassette with the five biggest cogs (on two spider rings) from the 11-28 cassette, thereby maintaining the 16A to 17C to 19C sequence in the Dura-Ace version.

While the 17B cog from the 11-28 cassette may also work, there is no cassette in the dealer manual with a 16A to 17B sequence; the 16A cog is only followed by the 17A cog or the 17C cog, while the 17B cog is always preceded by the 15A cog.

But the combined cost of two Ultegra cassettes is still pretty expensive, so I looked at the 105 versions of the same two cassettes:

105 CS-R7000 11T-28T

11A 12A 13A 14A 15A 17B 19E 21D (23C 25B 28A)

But this cassette does not have the 19C cog to match the setup in the Dura-Ace 12-28 cassette. So the Ultegra version of the 11-28 cassette is a safer bet.

105 CS-R7000 12T-25T

12A 13A 14A 15A 16A 17C 18D 19F (21B 23B 25A)

This cassette has the same six smallest cogs as the Ultegra version. So is the nicer and slightly lighter anodized aluminum lock ring on the Ultegra version worth the extra cost? Probably not on a bike with a CS-5800 groupset.

[SoSmellyAir]

The Ultegra 12-25 cassette I bought has the 12B and 13B cogs (instead of the 12A and 13A cogs identified in the Shimano Dealer Manual) so the 12-28 cassette I assembled has the same cog markings as the Dura-Ace version:

Ultegra CS-R8000 12T-25T

12B 13B 14A 15A 16A 17C (18B 19D) (21B 23B 25A)

Ultegra CS-R8000 11T-28T

11A 12A 13A 14A 15A 17B (19C 21C) (23C 25B 28A)

Dura-Ace CS-R9100 12T-28T

12B 13B 14A 15A 16A 17C (19C 21C 23C) (25B 28A)

Shifting is very smooth even without shortening the chain. A double down shift (i.e., to a cog two sizes bigger) near the big end of the cassette with a full stroke of the STI shift lever is easier compared to my old 105 11-32 cassette, maybe because the gear ratios are closer?

I ended up returning the 105 version of the 12-25 cassette because its cogs are silver and do not match the gray cogs of the Ultegra 11-28 cassette.

[SoSmellyAir]

Unfortunately the above works better in theory than practice. The 17C to 19C shift occasionally misses and leaves the chain rattling on the 17C cog. Another push on the STI lever moves the chain onto the 21C cog, skipping the 19C cog altogether. No issues with the 19C to 17C shift.

Using the 17B cog (from the 11-28 cassette) eliminates the above but leads to an occasionally missed 16A to 17B shift with the same symptoms as -- but less frequently than -- the above missed 17C to 19C shift. Again, no issues with the 17B to 16A shift.

So it seems better to have only a single tooth difference at the shift from one donor cassette to the other.

I really like having the 16T cog so I suppose I just have to either live with the above or use the 12-25 cassette by itself, which would require me to start off from a standstill on the small chain ring.

I really wish Shimano would make an Ultegra (or 105) 11 speed 12-28 cassette. Half the Shimano 10 speed cassettes have a 12T smallest cog.

[weiwentg]

Unfortunately the above works better in theory than practice. The 17C to 19C shift occasionally misses and leaves the chain rattling on the 17C cog. Another push on the STI lever moves the chain onto the 21C cog, skipping the 19C cog altogether. No issues with the 19C to 17C shift.

Using the 17B cog (from the 11-28 cassette) eliminates the above but leads to an occasionally missed 16A to 17B shift with the same symptoms as -- but less frequently than -- the above missed 17C to 19C shift. Again, no issues with the 17B to 16A shift.

So it seems better to have only a single tooth difference at the shift from one donor cassette to the other.

I really like having the 16T cog so I suppose I just have to either live with the above or use the 12-25 cassette by itself, which would require me to start off from a standstill on the small chain ring.

I really wish Shimano would make an Ultegra (or 105) 11 speed 12-28 cassette. Half the Shimano 10 speed cassettes have a 12T smallest cog.

If you're on here, can I get you to check something: can you make sure what cog marking you have on your 19t cog?

I bought a 12-25 Ultegra cassette and I took the 12-17 cogs to join to the 19+ cogs from what I thought was an R7000 11-30 cassette. In the dealer manual, that cassette should have come with 19C, 21C, 24A, 27A, 30A.

I was experiencing the same symptoms when shifting from the 17 to the 19 cog. I thought I'd try a different 19 cog, but when I checked the cog markings, it appears that I have a 19E cog.

If you search the dealer manual I linked, there is no 19E cog. It does exist on the previous generation of cassettes (https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-CS0004-04-ENG.pdf). I have a 21D cog on this cassette, whereas the manual says it's supposed to have a 21C cog.

Now, I do have an 11-28 5800 cassette in my house, and 5800 does not have a 11-30 cassette. At first, I thought maybe I mixed my cassettes up. However, I went to check the 11-28 cassette, and that one also has a 19E cog.

My 12-25 cassette also came with 12B and 13B cogs, whereas the manual said the Ultegra version was supposed to have 12A and 13A. That change presumably isn't material. However, I don't know what happened, but they could have made a running but undocumented change to the 17t and higher cogs on the 11-30 cassette, and that change is messing up the 17 to 19 shift.

[SoSmellyAir]

If you're on here, can I get you to check something: can you make sure what cog marking you have on your 19t cog?

I am mostly in Bike Forums. In my Ultegra (CS-R8000) 11-28 cassette, the actual 19T cog is marked 19C, in agreement with the Shimano Dealer Manual.

[bobswire]

Unfortunately the above works better in theory than practice. The 17C to 19C shift occasionally misses and leaves the chain rattling on the 17C cog. Another push on the STI lever moves the chain onto the 21C cog, skipping the 19C cog altogether. No issues with the 19C to 17C shift.

Using the 17B cog (from the 11-28 cassette) eliminates the above but leads to an occasionally missed 16A to 17B shift with the same symptoms as -- but less frequently than -- the above missed 17C to 19C shift. Again, no issues with the 17B to 16A shift.

So it seems better to have only a single tooth difference at the shift from one donor cassette to the other.

I really like having the 16T cog so I suppose I just have to either live with the above or use the 12-25 cassette by itself, which would require me to start off from a standstill on the small chain ring.

I really wish Shimano would make an Ultegra (or 105) 11 speed 12-28 cassette. Half the Shimano 10 speed cassettes have a 12T smallest cog.

[SoSmellyAir]

Unfortunately the above works better in theory than practice. The 17C to 19C shift occasionally misses and leaves the chain rattling on the 17C cog. Another push on the STI lever moves the chain onto the 21C cog, skipping the 19C cog altogether. No issues with the 19C to 17C shift.

Using the 17B cog (from the 11-28 cassette) eliminates the above but leads to an occasionally missed 16A to 17B shift with the same symptoms as -- but less frequently than -- the above missed 17C to 19C shift. Again, no issues with the 17B to 16A shift.

So it seems better to have only a single tooth difference at the shift from one donor cassette to the other.

I really like having the 16T cog so I suppose I just have to either live with the above or use the 12-25 cassette by itself, which would require me to start off from a standstill on the small chain ring.

I really wish Shimano would make an Ultegra (or 105) 11 speed 12-28 cassette. Half the Shimano 10 speed cassettes have a 12T smallest cog.

Huh?

[Dead Man]

Huh?

bob got hacked yesterday

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=267051

not to diminish this discussion any - but ive made custom cassettes pulling apart mostly tiagra cassettes cuz they cheep ... granted i was only building 4-speed cassettes, but they always shifted clean for me - 4 cog jumps, too

[bfd]

Huh?

I don't know if Bobwire got hacked or not, but I agree with his post that a 12t first cog is much more useful than the current trend of 9t/10t/11t!

One reason I like Campy 11 cassettes is they offer two cassettes with a 12t first cog - Chorus 12-29 and a Centaur 12-32. At my age, the 16t cog that you get in these cassettes are much more useful than an 11t or smaller cog. And that you can get the Centaur 11 12-32 cassette at about the same price as an Ultegra 11 11-32 cassette makes it the one to get!

Of course, if you all are happy with an 11t cog instead of a 16t, then more power to you!

Good Luck!

[chrisroph]

I've done a bunch of 12-28 and 12-30 and never had a problem getting them to shift just fine.

[SoSmellyAir]

I've done a bunch of 12-28 and 12-30 and never had a problem getting them to shift just fine.

11 speed cassettes?

[Wettek69]

Gidday guys, new user, and apologies for resurrecting an old thread. Did anyone ever have any luck making a fully functional 12-28 out of 2 Ultegra cassettes? I was intending to do exactly what was described here, but sounds like it doesn't work that well? Looking at the manual, the only difference I can see is that the Dura-Ace carrier has a slightly different profile than the Ultegra, but as long as the spacing and sprocket code stayed the same (17C-19C as per the Dura-Ace), I thought it would work fine.

Thanks and regards to all.

[carlucci1106]

Gidday guys, new user, and apologies for resurrecting an old thread. Did anyone ever have any luck making a fully functional 12-28 out of 2 Ultegra cassettes?

Welcome, Mate! I think posts #3 and #5 (on pg 1 of this thread) thoroughly indicate that it is possible, and works. :banana:

[Wettek69]

Thanks mate. Just got the impression from SoSmellyAir's posts that although it "should" have worked well, it didn't. Hence my question about maybe the carrier profile messing it up.

[chrisroph]

As I said above, I've made a bunch of 11 speed 12-28 and 12-30 cassettes by marrying ultegra and/or 105 12-25 and 11-28 0r 11-30 cassettes. They work just fine. I've had no shifting issues.

[Wettek69]

Champion, thanks mate, I will give it a crack. :beer:

[Wettek69]

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread. Finally got around to making a 12-28 out of a brand new Ultegra 11-28 and 12-25. Unfortunately, as others have experienced, despite having the correct tooth profiles (as per the Shimano 12-28 Dura Ace cassette), it doesn't work well, hesitating at the 17-19 transition.
Ended up just spending the money and getting a Dura Ace 12-28. Seems strange though, unless the Dura Ace 17C & 19C sprockets are different to the Ultegra versions.

[Wunder]

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread. Finally got around to making a 12-28 out of a brand new Ultegra 11-28 and 12-25. Unfortunately, as others have experienced, despite having the correct tooth profiles (as per the Shimano 12-28 Dura Ace cassette), it doesn't work well, hesitating at the 17-19 transition.
Ended up just spending the money and getting a Dura Ace 12-28. Seems strange though, unless the Dura Ace 17C & 19C sprockets are different to the Ultegra versions.

Where are you taking the split in the two cassettes? As the early posts note there are A, B, and C stampings on some of the cogs and they have different tooth profile. I run a 12-28 made from a 11-28 105 and 12-25 Ultegra and it works well.

I think I use the 12-16 from the 12-25 and the 17-28 from the 11-28. When I used the 17 from the 12-25 it had poor shifting between the 17 and 19. The gating on the 16-17 matters less. So it definitely can be done, as I have several thousand miles on that setup but choosing the correct split matters. I think I settled on th setup below after trying both myself:

Unfortunately the above works better in theory than practice. The 17C to 19C shift occasionally misses and leaves the chain rattling on the 17C cog. Another push on the STI lever moves the chain onto the 21C cog, skipping the 19C cog altogether. No issues with the 19C to 17C shift.

Using the 17B cog (from the 11-28 cassette) eliminates the above but leads to an occasionally missed 16A to 17B shift with the same symptoms as -- but less frequently than -- the above missed 17C to 19C shift. Again, no issues with the 17B to 16A shift.

[aliasfox]

I hated the gaps in my OEM Ultegra 11-34 cassette, and never used the 34T (and almost never used the 30T). When I moved to carbon wheels, I looked high and low for a solution, and arrived at Miche being a solution. They don't rely on pinned cogs or carriers, but instead have individual gears and spacers - allowing for a large variety, and (theoretically) the ability to mix and match as needed.

I installed the Miche Light Primato 12-29, and while I can't say it shifts perfectly, it's 99% as good, 97% of the time. Most shifts are quick and precise, though occasionally with a bit more 'thunking'. I occasionally get some hesitancy going from the 29T down to the 26T that I haven't been able to solve with limit screws, B-screw, or cable tension - but it's infrequent and minor enough that I live with it.

IIRC, my current gears (mated to a 50-34 crank) are:
12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-26-29

Since moving to CA (where long, 7%+ hills are common, and 10% hills lasting more than a few pedal strokes aren't hard to find, either), I've considered swapping out the big end of the range:
12-13-14-15-16-17-19-22-25-28-32

Just haven't gotten around to pulling the trigger (and subsequently, finding my chain whips...). Maybe I'll renew my efforts next time I'm grinding up a mile of 15% in 34x29...

[mhespenheide]

Honestly, this discussion makes me wonder why we're still using 50t chainrings. Way back in the dark ages when I started cycling, a non-racing enthusiast rider likely had a 52-13 as his biggest gear -- a 4x ratio. If Shimano is going to force us to use 11 tooth cassettes (not literally, but almost all cassettes start at 11t these days if you're on a 2x chainring system), it seems like we should mostly be running 44-tooth chainrings for the same 4x ratio.

[hypnos]

Honestly, this discussion makes me wonder why we're still using 50t chainrings. Way back in the dark ages when I started cycling, a non-racing enthusiast rider likely had a 52-13 as his biggest gear -- a 4x ratio. If Shimano is going to force us to use 11 tooth cassettes (not literally, but almost all cassettes start at 11t these days if you're on a 2x chainring system), it seems like we should mostly be running 44-tooth chainrings for the same 4x ratio.

That is what I hope to do with my upcoming 12-speed Ultegra build. https://specialites-ta.com/recherche?controller=search&s=PL49110

[rice rocket]

Honestly, this discussion makes me wonder why we're still using 50t chainrings. Way back in the dark ages when I started cycling, a non-racing enthusiast rider likely had a 52-13 as his biggest gear -- a 4x ratio. If Shimano is going to force us to use 11 tooth cassettes (not literally, but almost all cassettes start at 11t these days if you're on a 2x chainring system), it seems like we should mostly be running 44-tooth chainrings for the same 4x ratio.

Horses for courses

[Turkle]

That is what I hope to do with my upcoming 12-speed Ultegra build. https://specialites-ta.com/recherche?controller=search&s=PL49110

I would LOVE to learn more about these chainrings. Can you share some details? If I'm understanding the TA site correctly, these are much smaller chainrings than one normally sees for Shimano cranks. Would love these on my travel bike if I could make it work???

[hypnos]

I would LOVE to learn more about these chainrings. Can you share some details? If I'm understanding the TA site correctly, these are much smaller chainrings than one normally sees for Shimano cranks. Would love these on my travel bike if I could make it work???

TA makes top notch after market chainrings. I emailed to inquire about shifting a 44/33 combination with the current Ultegra FD-R8150 front derailleur. Their reply, translated from French: "These chainrings were designed for Shimano 12V transmission. They will fit perfectly with the R8100 transmission." Brad Bingham will be starting on my frame in February, so it will probably be Spring before I would swap out these chainrings for the stock 50/34. If you would be interested in an update, please send a PM so I remember who was interested.

[Wettek69]

Where are you taking the split in the two cassettes? As the early posts note there are A, B, and C stampings on some of the cogs and they have different tooth profile. I run a 12-28 made from a 11-28 105 and 12-25 Ultegra and it works well.

I think I use the 12-16 from the 12-25 and the 17-28 from the 11-28. When I used the 17 from the 12-25 it had poor shifting between the 17 and 19. The gating on the 16-17 matters less. So it definitely can be done, as I have several thousand miles on that setup but choosing the correct split matters. I think I settled on th setup below after trying both myself:

Used the 12-17 from the 12-25, and the 19-28 from the 11-28.
I am aware of the different (A,B,C) tooth profiles, and what I ended up with is the same tooth profiles as the DuraAce 12-28. Hence my wonderings if the Ultegra and DuraAce A,B,C are different. In theory, as the tooth profiles are the same, the Ultegra 12-28 I built, should be identical to the Dura Ace 12-28, but as it hesitates at 17-19, obviously there is some difference there.

[NHAero]

TA makes top notch after market chainrings. I emailed to inquire about shifting a 44/33 combination with the current Ultegra FD-R8150 front derailleur. Their reply, translated from French: "These chainrings were designed for Shimano 12V transmission. They will fit perfectly with the R8100 transmission." Brad Bingham will be starting on my frame in February, so it will probably be Spring before I would swap out these chainrings for the stock 50/34. If you would be interested in an update, please send a PM so I remember who was interested.

For me, a 4:1 top gear is plenty.

I run 44-28 on my Bingham and Habanero with an 11-34 cassette. On my old Litespeed MTB “errands via the trails” bike I'm running 44-33 with an 11-40 cassette. All are TA rings. And I've ordered a DM 44T ring to set my Supersix up as a 1x. My Bob Jackson is TA 48-36-24 with a 10s 12-30 cassette.

The highest gear I rode when I was young and strong was 48-13. My first Peugeot in '69 was 52-14. Both about 100 gear-inches. 44-11 with 650Bx38 is about 105 gear-inches, plenty for me.