PF30 to Campy Ultra Torque Woes - Advice Needed: Praxis Works vs. Wishbone vs. ???

[maximus]

A while back I purchased a beautiful Tomii from eBaumann. The frame is, in nearly every way, perfect for me. The problem is I am a Campy guy and the frame has a PF30 BB shell. Enter the issue...

I currently have Campagnolo's PF30 adapters (https://www.competitivecyclist.com/campagnolo-ultra-torque-pf30-adapter) installed. No matter how much prep I do, or amount of appropriate Loctite (641) I apply, the creaking inevitably starts and the drive side cup "walks out".

I have a very tight budget these days and at the risk of sounding cheap, it's hard to justify another hundred bucks on a build I am already feeling a tinge of guilt about. I want to make sure I nail this solution the first time.

Are there others alternatives I should consider (outside of switching to SRAM) or does anyone recommend one over the other?

Praxis Works (http://www.ebay.com/itm/WISHBONE-CERAMIC-BB-BPF3025C-Bottom-Bracket-BBright-PF30-to-Campagnolo-Campy-/332181772155?hash=item4d5793977b:g:RtYAAOSwDNdVuJw d)

Wishbone (http://www.ebay.com/itm/WISHBONE-CERAMIC-BB-BPF3025C-Bottom-Bracket-BBright-PF30-to-Campagnolo-Campy-/332181772155?hash=item4d5793977b:g:RtYAAOSwDNdVuJw d)

[echelon_john]

Following closely as I just built up a Niner BSB9 with PF30 & UT crankset...surprised by how easily the cups went in.

PS If you want a relatively low cost option, I have a set of 177.5mm SRAM S900 38/46 cranks & PF 30 BB, both new, that I have advertised for sale here.

[tuscanyswe]

Considering how cheap the Over torque crankset are right now id consider buying one of those if i had this problem.

I have a set installed with campy over torque pf30 cups and haven't had the slightest problem.

The one problem is the tool required to install / remove tho but if you can swing that you would almost be able to swap your used UT cranks for a New OT money wise. Not a bad deal imo. If you can find the tool that is..

[teleguy57]

Not familiar with the Wishbone, but my Praxis has been install and forget. I'd do it again vs anything else.

[R3awak3n]

first grab those campy cups and throw them in the trash. Absolutely fail of campy to put those out. GARBAGE.

I would go for the praxis but I have heard the parlee cups are dencent (they don't screw in but are longer than the campy cups so they stay in and no creaking). As a third option, wheels manufacturing makes an adapter as well that works great but it would require a PF30 BB and then you would be running 2 sets of bearings (on the BB and on the crankset which is kind of useless.

[maximus]

Considering how cheap the Over torque crankset are right now id consider buying one of those if i had this problem.


Jeez, I must be living under a rock because this is the first time I have heard about the Over Torque crank! I suppose it's logistically a more complicated solution, but I will do a bit more research.

first grab those campy cups and throw them in the trash. Absolutely fail of campy to put those out. GARBAGE.

I would go for the praxis but I have heard the parlee cups are dencent (they don't screw in but are longer than the campy cups so they stay in and no creaking).

Thanks @R3awak3n, I had'nt seen these before. That said, I think the Praxis is probably the ticket. I am hoping that some threading is the key here.

[Tony T]

I use the Parlee:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0167/0372/products/CampyBB_large.jpg?v=1465396541

Got these before Paraxis came out with their Campy conversion:

https://www.praxiscycles.com/wp-content/uploads/PRAXIS_CAMPY_CONVBB_PRODUCT.jpg

If I were looking for one today, I'd go with Praxis.

[wasfast]

Have the Praxis in my Cannondale. Install and forget. Awesome product.

[lhuerta]

No matter how much prep I do, or amount of appropriate Loctite (641) I apply, the creaking inevitably starts and the drive side cup "walks out".


Before trying the more expensive and heavy aftermarket products do the install correctly….ditch the Loctite 641 and use Loctite 609 or stronger (per Campagnolo spec … see attached) and make sure u r using the primer too. Remember that Loctite is a gap filler AND bonding agent. The 641 has lower bonding strength and smaller gap filling capacity, compared to the increased bonding strength and larger gap filling capacity of 609 (see Loctite tech specs on their website). Also, get the newest Campagnolo cups…. Campy has added a bit of length to the sleeve of the newer press fit cups (the 2015 and newer cups that have an “A” stamped on them) and they have also ditched the o-ring that some included, presumably to increase the amount of contact surface. I have installed dozens of press fit cups using 609 and primer and none have creaked or failed. Lastly, not sure what technique u r using when u install the cups….but make sure you clean out all residual Loctite before a new install, and also press in both cups at same time and leave the press on for at least 24 hours for a full and secure cure.

[maximus]

Before trying the more expensive and heavy aftermarket products do the install correctly….ditch the Loctite 641 and use Loctite 609...

Thank you! I never did read the campy install specs :crap: having read 641 everywhere else, but maybe that's what is spec'd for SRAM's cups, which are not machined alloy. I may give this a shot before jumping for the Praxis solution.

That said, I have no appreciation for the PF30 "standard", but I guess that's why Chris Kind and Argonaut said "throw some threads on it" (http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/previews/first-look-new-t47-bottom-bracket-standard)

[R3awak3n]

Thank you! I never did read the campy install specs :crap: having read 641 everywhere else, but maybe that's what is spec'd for SRAM's cups, which are not machined alloy. I may give this a shot before jumping for the Praxis solution.

That said, I have no appreciation for the PF30 "standard", but I guess that's why Chris Kind and Argonaut said "throw some threads on it" (http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/previews/first-look-new-t47-bottom-bracket-standard)

PF30 is not that bad, lets say you tried the praxis thing right away, you would not have this problem. Or say you used a BB30 crankset (like a hollowgram), you probably would not have this problem. The problem in this case, is not PF30 but those aweful campy cups.

I was ready to throw that frame in the trash when I installed mine, took it to multiple bike shops too, no one could figure out how to make it stop creaking/ have the cups not start coming out. Then I decided to just try the wheels manufacturing adaptor and was a happy camper. Later I just put some BB30 crankset on and was even happier.

I would skip trying to fix the campy cups and just do the praxis BB

[Tony T]

The instructions for Ultra Torque are here (https://www.campagnolo.com/media/files/035_40_Technical%20manual%20-%20Ultra%20Torque%20Power%20Torque%20bottom%20brac ket%20cup%20-%20Campagnolo__Rev02_06_16.pdf)

Basically the same as Overtorque, but note it says to glue the cups if the bb shell is not within tolerances (or if in doubt) "In the event that the bottom bracket shell does not comply with the foreseen tolerances, or in case of doubts, we recommend glueing the bottom bracket cups to the bottom bracket cup shell"

I'd rather use Parxis or Parlee cups than gluing in Campy cups.

[tuscanyswe]

PF30 is not that bad, lets say you tried the praxis thing right away, you would not have this problem. Or say you used a BB30 crankset (like a hollowgram), you probably would not have this problem. The problem in this case, is not PF30 but those aweful campy cups.

I was ready to throw that frame in the trash when I installed mine, took it to multiple bike shops too, no one could figure out how to make it stop creaking/ have the cups not start coming out. Then I decided to just try the wheels manufacturing adaptor and was a happy camper. Later I just put some BB30 crankset on and was even happier.

I would skip trying to fix the campy cups and just do the praxis BB

There are however lots of bikes with creaky bbs that are not campy even tho they probably are the worst offenders %wise. Threaded cranks really dont have this very annoying problem..

[maximus]

There are however lots of bikes with creaky bbs that are not campy even tho they probably are the worst offenders %wise. Threaded cranks really dont have this very annoying problem..

My thoughts exactly...

[ultraman6970]

I dont have any bike with this bb but if i had to pick I would go praxis... great solution because pretty much is a threaded BB....

[R3awak3n]

My thoughts exactly...

and mine too. I forgot to add at the end of the post. I will take BSA over any other standard

[lhuerta]

Basically the same as Overtorque, but note it says to glue the cups if the bb shell is not within tolerances (or if in doubt) "In the event that the bottom bracket shell does not comply with the foreseen tolerances, or in case of doubts, we recommend glueing the bottom bracket cups to the bottom bracket cup shell"

I'd rather use Parxis or Parlee cups than gluing in Campy cups.

...there is no such thing, anymore, as "press" fit without Loctite retaining compound, unless you are seeking to experience the dreaded creak (almost every manufacturer now recommends Loctite retaining compound).

Also, using a Praxis or BBInfinite workaround will still require Loctite retaining compound...also a well known issue. See detailed discussion here: http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=135742&start=60

There is nothing wrong with adding Locitite to a part in order to install to your frame. Many are concerned that you won't be able to remove cups after using the retaining compound, but that is incorrect too. In most cases the cups will pop out with a mallet and cup remover (as easy as popping out headset cups) and when the bond is stubborn, simply adding a bit of heat with a heatgun is all that is needed.

[DRZRM]

Pretty good deal.

https://www.merlincycles.com/campagnolo-comp-ultra-over-torque-road-chainset-11-speed-92904.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-US&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=Road+Bike+Chainsets&ucpo=33637&gclid=CjwKEAjwlpbIBRCx4eT8l9W26igSJAAuQ_HGITYgiJ5p fb7DpxwU2UYONoORxI-vyqmZrA7KcEBXqxoCMFXw_wcB

[R3awak3n]

Pretty good deal.

https://www.merlincycles.com/campagnolo-comp-ultra-over-torque-road-chainset-11-speed-92904.html?utm_campaign=googlebase-US&utm_source=googlebase&utm_medium=shopping&utm_term=Road+Bike+Chainsets&ucpo=33637&gclid=CjwKEAjwlpbIBRCx4eT8l9W26igSJAAuQ_HGITYgiJ5p fb7DpxwU2UYONoORxI-vyqmZrA7KcEBXqxoCMFXw_wcB

the problem will be to find the installation tool. If you can indeed find it (almost impossible) it will cost the same as the crankset.


also on the PF30 needing loctite. Maybe I got lucky, never put any on my PF30 bike, never had a creak.

[Blown Reek]

If you're running Campagnolo on a PF30 bike, the Parlee adapters are all that you need. No locktite needed. Grease the cups, press them in and you're all set.

They fit deeper in the bottom bracket, and there's much more surface area than the Campagnolo part. You won't get any creaking at all. I haven't tried the Praxis, but I've run the Parlee part for years on multiple bikes and have never had a problem.

[nicrump]

True PF30(46mm bore) in an aluminum frame? Get a local builder with T47 taps to thread it and forget it.

edit, i miss-read the maker. but threading might still be an option.

[tv_vt]

True PF30(46mm bore) in an aluminum frame? Get a local builder with T47 taps to thread it and forget it.

...threading might still be an option.

Could you tap a BB30 ti shell to T47, or is that only an option for PF30 shells, Nick?

[DRZRM]

Yeah, I have a set of the tools, I got when I got my Firefly with PF-30.
I'm thinking about upgrading the crank as I have it all.

the problem will be to find the installation tool. If you can indeed find it (almost impossible) it will cost the same as the crankset.


also on the PF30 needing loctite. Maybe I got lucky, never put any on my PF30 bike, never had a creak.

[dgoodwin]

+1 on the Praxis. Mine is for BB30 (not Campy), but it's the same concept and it's install and forget!

[wgp]

[QUOTE=Tony T;2165313]I use the Parlee:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0167/0372/products/CampyBB_large.jpg?v=1465396541

I use the Parlee on my Moots RSL and it has been flawless - not a peep and a straightforward process of installing it.

[Blown Reek]

[QUOTE=Tony T;2165313]I use the Parlee:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0167/0372/products/CampyBB_large.jpg?v=1465396541

I use the Parlee on my Moots RSL and it has been flawless - not a peep and a straightforward process of installing it.

And definitely cheaper than cutting threads in a bottom bracket shell, and won't void your frame warranty, too.

[maximus]

Appreciate all the advice and input here.

I am going to go with Lou's advice and try Loctite 609 before jumping for the Praxis adapter. Sounds like I'll need the compound around if the Campy creak/walk-out again, so it's a reasonable first step (and a cheaper one!).

Edit - the Parlee adapters look good. The few extra mm's of mounting surface likely make all the difference, but at roughly the same cost, the Praxis solution looks like a better bet. Just my two cents.

:beer:

[Tony T]

[QUOTE=wgp;2165789]

And definitely cheaper than cutting threads in a bottom bracket shell, and won't void your frame warranty, too.

No need to cut threads with the Praxis.
The Praxis looks like a better system. I have the Parlee because Praxis didn't have the Campy ready when I needed them.
However, the Parlee cups are great. Not a peep in the 4 years they've been in my Ti frame (the Campy cups kept 'walking' out of the frame — and I checked and the bb was within the spec's Campy published)

[R3awak3n]

[QUOTE=Blown Reek;2165911]

No need to cut threads with the Praxis.
The Praxis looks like a better system. I have the Parlee because Praxis didn't have the Campy ready when I needed them.
However, the Parlee cups are great. Not a peep in the 4 years they've been in my Ti frame (the Campy cups kept 'walking' out of the frame — and I checked and the bb was within the spec's Campy published)

they both will work probably fine but I agree that the praxis is a better system. Really no way for the cups to come out.

[rst72]

another yes to parlee cups...never an issue.

[Joachim]

the problem will be to find the installation tool. If you can indeed find it (almost impossible) it will cost the same as the crankset.


also on the PF30 needing loctite. Maybe I got lucky, never put any on my PF30 bike, never had a creak.

1000x this. I just bought the Overtorque crankset and I think I have found the last tool available world wide with the help of Graeme from Velotech UK. No tool left in the USA and only a few shops have it. Conrads in NY can install it for you for $45

[nicrump]

Could you tap a BB30 ti shell to T47, or is that only an option for PF30 shells, Nick?

most likely not. most bb30 shells are not thick enough(not enough wall or O.D.)