Outstanding Packing job

[Bentley]

So I do a bit of trading on EBay, you can find some good deals and generally no problems. Unfortunately my last bicycle related purchase is turning into a bit of a cluster thing. I bought the frame and paid for the frame plus shipping ($75 for shipping a frame, no fork, headset, bb). The seller informed me after the purchase that given the Easter weekend it would be delayed till Monday (actually left a couple of days later) any way, it arrived yesterday, it was not boxed, it was "wrapped" loosely in like two light layers of bubble wrap, a small cardboard "vanity cover" over the triangle. Most of the rear triangle was "exposed" I sent the guy a note asking for a refund. I have not disturbed the packaging because then its on me. He says just have it checked out at my LBS all will be fine. My concern is doing anything puts me in the position of having to defend my self and the fact that this all starts with a poor packing job. Honestly, never, ever gotten a frame that was not in a box.

Happy to take the abuse about the 'Bay, but am I just anal thinking it should have come in a box. Should I really just take the frame and the risk, or am I somewhat right to feel kind of "taken advantage of".

Best

Ray

[ColonelJLloyd]

You can call eBay and ask what course of action to take to make sure you're covered. Certainly take photos. If it's damaged they'll cover you, but you have to know if it's damaged. A human on the phone will let you know.

[jtakeda]

Take photos of the pack job before.

As you open it, take more photos step by step, take your time.

If there is damage, photograph it and ask for a refund.

You need proof it's damaged. The photos serve as proof that it was packed poorly.

[dlui]

maybe have a video cam on too

[biker72]

Take photos of the pack job before.

As you open it, take more photos step by step, take your time.

If there is damage, photograph it and ask for a refund.

You need proof it's damaged. The photos serve as proof that it was packed poorly.

+1
You can't take too many photos in this case.

I had a similar case and paid $140 for professional packing and shipping.
Parts of the bike were protruding through the box.
No damage but a few unnecessary scratches.

[R3awak3n]

interesting as the last 2 bikes I got from ebay had some of the best packing jobs I have ever seen. 1st bike I bought from ebay had the worst and so there was a dent on the bike. Definitely message ebay, they will be on ur side.

[93KgBike]

it arrived yesterday, it was not boxed, it was "wrapped" loosely in like two light layers of bubble wrap, a small cardboard "vanity cover" over the triangle. Most of the rear triangle was "exposed"

Was there at least a bridge in the drop-outs? If not, I think that is case closed on the guy; eBay should probably refund you.

I have only ever had positive experiences with their conflict resolution system. They did most of the legwork, which was nice.

[Keith A]

I like the video idea.

BTW, I once received a frameset that was packed and shipped from a bike shop. The frameset arrived in a bike box with nothing else covering it at all. It was free to move around inside of the box. Fortunately there was no damage to the frameset.

[Bentley]

Was there at least a bridge in the drop-outs? If not, I think that is case closed on the guy; eBay should probably refund you.

I have only ever had positive experiences with their conflict resolution system. They did most of the legwork, which was nice.

Nope. And the "bubble wrap" was undone over the rear dropouts. I opened a return, the guy sent a few emails but he went Radio silent yesterday so I plan to elevate the issue today.

[Johnny Alien]

I would think that if there is no return policy with the seller then not liking the packing job is not an adequate reason for a refund through the paypal or ebay process. It was shipped to you and received. You will need to prove that it was actually damaged or not what you ordered to be able to get the money back. Not opening the packaging makes some sense but I think the only way to go will be to open it and document any damage.

[Ken Robb]

I agree with the suggestions that you document the package as it arrived and as you open it. Then check the frame for damage. If there is none you got the bike you wanted at a good price and you should be happy. OTOH hand if you have buyer's remorse and want to bail out MAYBE you can successfully pursue your present course.

[oldpotatoe]

I would think that if there is no return policy with the seller then not liking the packing job is not an adequate reason for a refund through the paypal or ebay process. It was shipped to you and received. You will need to prove that it was actually damaged or not what you ordered to be able to get the money back. Not opening the packaging makes some sense but I think the only way to go will be to open it and document any damage.

Agree. Poor pack job isn't grounds for a refund. Damage is. Document pack job along with damage if there is any.

[chiasticon]

I really want to see some pics of this packing job.

I've never had to return anything on eBay before, until last year. and I've gotten at least a few frames from there, a bunch of wheelsets, and several thousands worth of music gear. in this instance, I had purchased a carbon tubular wheelset. I cleaned the glue off of them so I could start fresh and know exactly what I was dealing with. glad that I did, because I uncovered a minor crack in the carbon. I contacted the seller and, luckily, they had a comprehensive return policy. I had a return label emailed to me that night, it was shipped the next day, and I had a full refund a few days later. now I look for return policies when I buy big ticket items.

[weisan]

We may not like to hear it but it's the truth.

[Bentley]

Agree. Poor pack job isn't grounds for a refund. Damage is. Document pack job along with damage if there is any.

If I knew how to post a pic I would.

Think of this, you take 2 18x20 pieces of single ply cardboard (cut from a box) tape that over the frame triangle (part of the TT, ST,DT) then maybe two layers of small bubble wrap and some tape. That's the extent of it.

I disagree I have to prove damage, would you expect as a former LBS to do a thorough frame inspection for nothing? The assume there is a problem, who is to say it did not happen after receipt.

I think packing a bike frame in a box is a minimum expectation. Some newspaper or bubble wrap, that's a plus. This case the frame (rear dropouts) are clapping in the wind (bubble wrap came loose).

I got charged 75 for shipping, bikeflights likely would have done the whole deal for 50

This is not buyers remorse, just feel like this person did not do the right thing

[ColonelJLloyd]

Nothing matters except for what eBay says. Have you contacted them yet? It's as simple as a phone call.

[Bentley]

So as everyone knows its a process with EBay, first attempt to work it out with the seller, he has stopped responding so now I will elevate the issue

Soon will know

[marciero]

I'm guessing the ad did not mentioned something about packing? If so then packing would be viable basis - "item differs from advertised" would apply.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Ken Robb]

I disagree I have to prove damage, would you expect as a former LBS to do a thorough frame inspection for nothing? The assume there is a problem, who is to say it did not happen after receipt.


This is not buyers remorse, just feel like this person did not do the right thing

So, if you liked the looks of the packing you would feel fine riding the bike without carefully checking the frame for damage? Once you ride it and THEN find some damage could you prove that YOU didn't cause it? A poor packing job might be alarming to me but I wouldn't assume that there was or wasn't some damage without inspecting the frame/fork. There have been plenty of instances of faulty goods being shipped in great-looking packages and vice/versa.

[chiasticon]

A poor packing job might be alarming to me but I wouldn't assume that there was or wasn't some damage without inspecting the frame/fork.a fair point. the bike *might* be fine. but he does have every right to be concerned that it was put into a situation where it was more likely to be damaged; especially after he paid decently to have it be packed/shipped properly.

worst thing I ever had shipped to me: a cymbal for a drum kit. seller took two pieces of cardboard and taped them together, flat, with the cymbal in-between. luckily, it wasn't cracked along any of the edges. but it was turned inside-out. :crap:

[Bentley]

So, if you liked the looks of the packing you would feel fine riding the bike without carefully checking the frame for damage? Once you ride it and THEN find some damage could you prove that YOU didn't cause it? A poor packing job might be alarming to me but I wouldn't assume that there was or wasn't some damage without inspecting the frame/fork. There have been plenty of instances of faulty goods being shipped in great-looking packages and vice/versa.

I think you are off on a tangent. If the packing looked fine and then I was building it up then it would be a "hidden defect" and given that you dont always jump on building something up, its on me. But if you get defective (ineffective) packing then I see it as incumbent to notify the seller and try and resolve it. He could offer to pay for any frame alignment check (about an hour from my house) and about $50 labor, but he has not offered anything. He could also "bond up" using an escrow 3rd party, but no, he just wants me to take my chances. Not right. I have taken items back for much less. I sold a used MocaMaster coffee maker, the carafe was coffee stained (go figure it is used) the guy said his wife had a hissy fit, I took it back and we split the shipping cost. Charge me $75 for packing and shipping, and loosely wrap it in bubble wrap that comes loose, that is not meeting any reasonable expectation of care.

Someone asked if he mentioned packing, no, but generally the most I have read is "will be professionally packed ..." but in most cases nothing. I have gotten parts in bubble wrap envelops, but not a bike flying in the wind with two small pieces of cardboard.

Think about it for a minute, you buy a frame from someone, pay $75 to ship a frame (aluminum) and it does not come in a box, my guess is it is a Win The Future moment.

[Johnny Alien]

I am just saying what the policy from ebay and paypal is. They have an obligation to get it to you in the advertised condition. At this point all that can be proven is that it HAS indeed been shipped to you. You have zero idea if there is any damage and paypal will 100% need that. Preferably with photos to prove it. Telling paypal or ebay that you think the packaging is sketchy is not a reason for them to refund you. Once you open a dispute if it is not found in your favor you can never open another one. I am not saying you have no reason to be concerned I am saying that you need to file a "damaged" or "not as described" claim because they don't care about the packing. If you do it this way they will rule in the seller's favor and you will not be able to open a claim if you find out it's damaged after inspecting it. Opening the package will not hurt your claim it will help it.

[ptourkin]

Absent evidence of damage, you don't have a claim unless a specific claim was made about how it would be packed. :bike:

[Bentley]

so maybe you missed it, the fantastic bubble wrap of the rear triangle is flapping in the wind, if it were a box its the equivalent of a hole in the box, a damaged box, all of which is grounds for a claim.

I do not recall that the buyers protection requires one to spend funds to verify that there is no damage, I could measure the dropouts and they like just about every frame could be a little out, that proves little verifying the alignment without spending the money to have it checked would mean building up the bike and then finding a problem with how it handles which would then mean taking it to a frame alignment shop, likely weeks from now, which also opens me up for "how can I be sure you did not damage the frame in the build up". I have actually seen frames fall from a bike stand or have dropped a frame and bent a derailluer hanger, none of which would be that unusual, so what is the recourse then.

My point, its always best when you charge "good money" to perform in a responsible manner, the buyer protection is based on that. If there is a problem, resolve it early, even Ebay says that, dont wait just get it done.

Ray

[GregL]

My $0.02 (and it's worth exactly that...): I have yet to read in this thread that the frame was damaged. If it was damaged, then get a full refund through eBay/PayPal. If it was not damaged, request that the seller reimburse you for half of the shipping cost since the frame was clearly NOT properly, professionally packed. Over the years, I have had frames very poorly packed that arrived in great shape (one was just loose in a box to rattle around) as well as well-packed bikes that were still damaged in shipping (looked like UPS crushed the box...). In all cases, I was able to work with the seller to get to a mutually satisfactory outcome. Good luck!

Greg

[Bentley]

My $0.02 (and it's worth exactly that...): I have yet to read in this thread that the frame was damaged. If it was damaged, then get a full refund through eBay/PayPal. If it was not damaged, request that the seller reimburse you for half of the shipping cost since the frame was clearly NOT properly, professionally packed. Over the years, I have had frames very poorly packed that arrived in great shape (one was just loose in a box to rattle around) as well as well-packed bikes that were still damaged in shipping (looked like UPS crushed the box...). In all cases, I was able to work with the seller to get to a mutually satisfactory outcome. Good luck!

Greg

Right, that works for me. It might be fine, but I am pretty sure given the condition of the bubble wrap, (torn, bursted bubbles) that there may be damage. It could be fine, but it will take time and effort and maybe a little money to confirm, that is not what I bought. I thought I bought a used frame that would be packed so that I could safely assume (stress assume) that all was good and I would be good to go. I have gotten the loose frame in the box too, but the box was undamaged so I assumed it was (and it was) good to go. If the frame would have arrived in an undamaged box I would not be wasting my time with this thread. I wish I knew how to post a pic

[batman1425]

I sucks to pay good money for a service and not have a seller follow through, but if it made it to you safely - which still hasn't been assessed - this is a moot point. Bad packing is bad packing whether it is in a box or not. A frame unsecured in a box with a bunch of loose bits rattling around smacking into things, or completely bare with UPS tag wrapped around the top tube it's all bad. To me, being in a box isn't any more piece of mind beyond major alignment concerns or impacts on thin wall metal or carbon tubing. It's presence within a box is no guarantee it will arrive safely.

Case in point: I had a well respected bike shop local to a training camp I was on ship my bike home to me after the camp wrapped up. It arrive home a few days after me, I unboxed and saw they removed both wheels and put the rear wheel next to the main triangle with the cassette facing in, and secured it only to the bike with a single loose zip tie to the top tube. When the box tilted up or down the wheel slid forward and back along the top tube and the cassette teeth slam into the seat tube - which it did during shipping. Nice teeth bite marks in my carbon seat tube. I had a fit. Called the shop and complained. They said take it to a local expert, assess the damage, and we will go from there. Damage ultimately was determined to not be structural, despite how gnarly it looked. Shop comped me for a respray of the area. The point being - boxes or not, damage happens and the seller can't do anything till you know what the problem is. A bad pack job isn't a problem. Damage from shipping because of a bad pack job or damage because the courier mishandled a well packed item is a problem, and that's what you need to assess. You need to assess condition before you will get anywhere with either the seller, the bay, or paypal.

Document its current state (which it sounds like you have) and describe/photograph with scale objects any problem areas that were not disclosed in the original add that could be due to improper packaging. Then get the seller/ebay/paypal involved if there is an issue.

You may think that you were owed more from a $75 shipping charge, and I agree with you. However, don't forget that flat rate shipping is just another way some people make money off sales on ebay. Make a stink if there is something to make a stink about. If it got to you safe packed like that, go buy a lottery ticket move on.

What carrier handled it? I have a hard time believing that either of the big 2 would even take possession of a item packed like you describe.

[batman1425]

Right, that works for me. It might be fine, but I am pretty sure given the condition of the bubble wrap, (torn, bursted bubbles) that there may be damage. It could be fine, but it will take time and effort and maybe a little money to confirm, that is not what I bought. I thought I bought a used frame that would be packed so that I could safely assume (stress assume) that all was good and I would be good to go. I have gotten the loose frame in the box too, but the box was undamaged so I assumed it was (and it was) good to go. If the frame would have arrived in an undamaged box I would not be wasting my time with this thread. I wish I knew how to post a pic

This is the risk of buying over the internet... To be clear - I agree with and understand your frustration that you don't feel like you got what you were promised and paid for. However, fundamentally, that doesn't really matter in the context of the sale unless damage occurred. The seller has an obligation to get it to you safely. Unless you can prove otherwise, box or no box, it's your frame. If it was damaged - then you can go after the seller/ebay/etc. who should refund your money and like Johnny says below - the seller can decide if they want to pursue a claim with the shipper if they feel their packing was sufficient/conformed to the couriers guidelines and they mishandled it. I feel for people that have to go that route - very few packages (even from commercial retailers) conform to the written packing standards at UPS or FedEx. There are lots of loopholes built in to protect them from paying out on claims.

[Johnny Alien]

The hole in the box is a good comparison. If I had a package delivered and the box was mistreated and there was a hole in the box that is NOT grounds for a claim. If I open the box and the item inside got damaged then it's grounds for a claim. At that point the seller can choose to take it up with the shipping company for reimbursement or not but you get a refund because the item arrived damaged. In your case you don't know if it's damaged. You need to verify that. It should not cost you money to see if the frame is in the condition described in the ad. If it's not then you open a claim and will likely get your money back. If you open a dispute and are honest then the most you can say is "it might be damaged, the packaging is bad" and you will lose the dispute You have up to 60 days to open a dispute so you will know if a problem pops up while building it (I would assume).

[-dustin]

i had this long ass response written up about actual packing jobs in the bike world, but then....


wait. i'm confused. the frame showed up and it wasn't actually boxed? like, it was sandwiched between 2 layers of ill-fitting cardboard and bubble wrapped?

[-dustin]

I unboxed and saw they removed both wheels and put the rear wheel next to the main triangle with the cassette facing in, and secured it only to the bike with a single loose zip tie to the top tube.
interesting. wonder if the zipties holding the rear wheel broke. that's how road bikes are boxed by pretty much everyone. except with tight zipties, and typically more than one. it's hard to even get the bike into a box without that wheel cinched down by the zipties.

[batman1425]

interesting. wonder if the zipties holding the rear wheel broke. that's how road bikes are boxed by pretty much everyone. except with tight zipties, and typically more than one. it's hard to even get the bike into a box without that wheel cinched down by the zipties.

I looked all through the box and there weren't any broken ties. I'm guessing the packer was in a hurry. Put one on loose to get things aligned, got distracted or was in a rush, and put it in the box thinking they had secured the other points and snugged everything up. I was super pissed at first, but they made it right after some work on my end to figure out the extent of the damage.

[tuscanyswe]

Why can't you just check the frame yourself for damage? I mean if its about weather or not the frame is out of alignment or such, why couldent a boxed frame be that as well? Seller could have shipped a damaged frame well packed in a sound box.. One would want to check those for the same type of damages regardless of shipping then i guess?


That said ppl who ship things poorly packed should be hmm told off! :)

Gl hope the frame is okay in the end.

[R3awak3n]

I bought some wheels on ebay a while ago and the seller got a hube cardboard box, flatten it and put both wheels inside of it and taped the edges. When I got it I for sure thought they were going to be damaged. Nope, they were totally fine and have been great. That said, that was really dumb but they got to me ok so nothing I can say about it.

So, take the frame to a shop to see if its aligned and if it is, all you can say is give him a crappy review for a crappy packing job.

[Bentley]

i had this long ass response written up about actual packing jobs in the bike world, but then....


wait. i'm confused. the frame showed up and it wasn't actually boxed? like, it was sandwiched between 2 layers of ill-fitting cardboard and bubble wrapped?

Exactly

[-dustin]

My opinion on this matter has drastically changed.

Who was the courier? Just curious.

I'd be pretty pissed and I'd dispute the shipping charge. Especially if the shipping was communicated to be professional. Then I'd take check the frame over real well. We could walk you through how to check alignment. All you'll need is a rear wheel and a piece of string long enough to wrap about the bike.

Then I'd leave pretty poor feedback. In no circumstance is that acceptable.

[pdmtong]

I bought some wheels on ebay a while ago and the seller got a hube cardboard box, flatten it and put both wheels inside of it and taped the edges. When I got it I for sure thought they were going to be damaged. Nope, they were totally fine and have been great. That said, that was really dumb but they got to me ok so nothing I can say about it.
I have had basic wheels shipped ot me this way. I too was shocked but there was no issue. Have I missed the part of the thread in which the type of frame and value were stated? Part of me thinks this must have been a low value frame (in the mind of the seller) and packed accordingly. Surely this was not a Pina F8...

[Bentley]

My opinion on this matter has drastically changed.

Who was the courier? Just curious.

I'd be pretty pissed and I'd dispute the shipping charge. Especially if the shipping was communicated to be professional. Then I'd take check the frame over real well. We could walk you through how to check alignment. All you'll need is a rear wheel and a piece of string long enough to wrap about the bike.

Then I'd leave pretty poor feedback. In no circumstance is that acceptable.

It was FEDEX, I can honestly say they have refused some packages in the past that I packed way better. They rejected a set of tires that was shrink wrapped together. Anyway this is likely not adding any value at this time

Ray

[Bentley]

I have had basic wheels shipped ot me this way. I too was shocked but there was no issue. Have I missed the part of the thread in which the type of frame and value were stated? Part of me thinks this must have been a low value frame (in the mind of the seller) and packed accordingly. Surely this was not a Pina F8...

So, think Colnago Dream ...., older frame, but for me its always been a good rider. I got a fair price for frame only, nothing that would be characterized a "amazing purchase", the shipping was a bit off but I agreed to the deal. I understand folks thinking that I should have it checked, but the more I do with this frame, the weaker my case will be.

[Johnny Alien]

the more I do with this frame, the weaker my case will be.

There is no case as far as packaging with ebay/paypal. If your only claim is that the packaging sucks but you have no idea if there is damage then they will rule in favor of the seller. Claims can only be made when you didn't get the item, the item was damaged or the item was not as described. None of those apply to the packaging.

[batman1425]

^^^ This. You may not like the pack job, but unless you both agreed to some specific packing/shipping criteria that spells out the details the default is only that it must get to you in the advertised condition. The expectation may be higher, but the policy as written in the add is what you are agreeing to at the time of sale.

I agree with what the others have said, you've got zero case without verifiable damage beyond that stated in the original add. Undoing the pack job is not going to work against you. Just do your due diligence. Photograph, document, time stamp, etc. and have a shop verify if you don't feel comfortable making the call on your own.

[chiasticon]

^^^ This. You may not like the pack job, but unless you both agreed to some specific packing/shipping criteria that spells out the details the default is only that it must get to you in the advertised condition. The expectation may be higher, but the policy as written in the add is what you are agreeing to at the time of sale.

I agree with what the others have said, you've got zero case without verifiable damage beyond that stated in the original add. Undoing the pack job is not going to work against you. Just do your due diligence. Photograph, document, time stamp, etc. and have a shop verify if you don't feel comfortable making the call on your own.this. you need to unpack the thing and assess damage. if it's not damaged, then go after the guy for bogus shipping fees. if it is, then process with the dispute as normal, noting in your dispute the terrible condition in which it was shipped to you. I highly doubt eBay will award you the dispute win based on the reply to "is it damaged?" being: "well, I don't know...but probably!"

I bought some wheels on ebay a while ago and the seller got a hube cardboard box, flatten it and put both wheels inside of it and taped the edges. When I got it I for sure thought they were going to be damaged. Nope, they were totally fine and have been great. That said, that was really dumb but they got to me ok so nothing I can say about it. I've had wheels shipped in Wheelbuilder.com that were more or less the same thing. a bit more sophisticated and individually packed, but the same principle.

[stien]

All this talk and no pics of the pack job?

[notsew]

All this talk and no pics of the pack job?

Seriously, I keep coming back for pictures...

[jtakeda]

You can only make 1 claim. Make it worth it. Agree with above, a poor packing job only matters if the frame is damaged.

[Bentley]

I did some checking and I found a fee things that did not seem right so I took the frame to my local bike shop. The fame alignment tool shows it out by 10mm. Appears one of the seat stays is bent.

My guess is the frame was good until FedEx got it, but the poor packing , with "normal" handling did not arrive in good shape

I think the seller will return my funds

Ray

[Johnny Alien]

The seller might not voluntarily refund the money but if you photograph the way it shipped and have a shop verifying issues then paypal should get you your money back no problem.

[Bentley]

The last email from the seller indicated he would
I have pics

Ray

[gemship]

I did some checking and I found a fee things that did not seem right so I took the frame to my local bike shop. The fame alignment tool shows it out by 10mm. Appears one of the seat stays is bent.

My guess is the frame was good until FedEx got it, but the poor packing , with "normal" handling did not arrive in good shape

I think the seller will return my funds

Ray

It just occurred to me after reading threads like this that people who sell and ship bike stuff sure can get complacent. I don't want to place all the blame/ responsibility on them even though they own it. I have to say though whether it be wheels, frames or complete bikes it's amazing how these things can take such abuse at what they are made to do thru intended use, if well made and not abused. However when not shipped right they can get very easily damaged and they are really kinda expensive.

Unrelated to this I just recently badly warped a Mavic Open pro wheel with minimal use over a four year period and I only weigh 170. The wheel has a 36 spoke count, nothing special but it was said to me that it was a very stout, bullet proof build that should've been able to handle me jumping off curbs. All it took was a two inch bunnyhop and some ****ty road to cripple it and now it's going to cost me a couple hundred bucks to replace. Ironic that bike parts are expensive and easy to break just say'in.

[Ken Robb]

It just occurred to me after reading threads like this that people who sell and ship bike stuff sure can get complacent. I don't want to place all the blame/ responsibility on them even though they own it. I have to say though whether it be wheels, frames or complete bikes it's amazing how these things can take such abuse at what they are made to do thru intended use, if well made and not abused. However when not shipped right they can get very easily damaged and they are really kinda expensive.

Unrelated to this I just recently badly warped a Mavic Open pro wheel with minimal use over a four year period and I only weigh 170. The wheel has a 36 spoke count, nothing special but it was said to me that it was a very stout, bullet proof build that should've been able to handle me jumping off curbs. All it took was a two inch bunnyhop and some ****ty road to cripple it and now it's going to cost me a couple hundred bucks to replace. Ironic that bike parts are expensive and easy to break just say'in.
I have weighed as much as 215 lbs. and ridden Open Pro 32 hole wheels on Campy and Shimano hubs on/off road and never had to true them after the original build so I would guess that your wheel might not have been properly built.

[gemship]

I have weighed as much as 215 lbs. and ridden Open Pro 32 hole wheels on Campy and Shimano hubs on/off road and never had to true them after the original build so I would guess that your wheel might not have been properly built.

Yeah man I'm totally with you. That wheel always had a slight out of trueness and this after I took it to a lbs, got a good deal on them built up with dt spokes and 105 hubs. However they were already built by god know who or what,lol. The kid at the lbs only charged me like 30$ to look them over, someone on this site said that was a good idea to do which I don't doubt. At the time I was happy to pay the price but I would have paid twice as much if it meant this not happening at all. I don't know really why it happened but it's a really nasty s pattern that has the wheel stopping short as it hits either side brake pads and this with brakes slackened for easy wheel removal. I'm disappointed but I can see how maybe if at the right position just the right force could throw it all out of whack. I mean I wasn't riding the bike in a bad way at all.

[Tony]

I think the seller set himself up in a bad way. Not saying you did, however because of this sellers poor packing job (sure you have pictures) it will be hard to prove that you didn't screw the frame up and had it verified by your LBS so as to win this case.

[Bentley]

I think the seller set himself up in a bad way. Not saying you did, however because of this sellers poor packing job (sure you have pictures) it will be hard to prove that you didn't screw the frame up and had it verified by your LBS so as to win this case.

I reported the "poor packing" upon receipt and engaged the seller. The seller insisted on me getting the frame checked (emails), I had it checked, took plenty of pics. Seller agreed to a refund, all good ☺☺

[Johnny Alien]

That's good news! You would have been in a good position for a dispute anyway BUT having the seller agree is just so much easier. Are they covering the shipping back?

[Bentley]

That's good news! You would have been in a good position for a dispute anyway BUT having the seller agree is just so much easier. Are they covering the shipping back?

Totally, way easier. I've never used a "shipper", I've had a few things packed but generally do that myself, that way I know how it was packed. Not sure how much was paid, but the packing was inadequate given how packages are handled, the likely hood of no damage give the pack job was,IMHO, Zero.

[pdmtong]

Glad that worked out economically but sorry you did not get the frame that you had wanted. being that close and then being sunk due to packing is really lousy.

my earlier comment about frame value was to possible correlate the sellers care in packing. for instance would he have shipped a C60 that way?

[Bentley]

Glad that worked out economically but sorry you did not get the frame that you had wanted. being that close and then being sunk due to packing is really lousy.

my earlier comment about frame value was to possible correlate the sellers care in packing. for instance would he have shipped a C60 that way?

So he said it was packed by a shipper so who the heck knows if a C60 would get packed that way. This Nago is a very nice Dream with Arte Decor and a bit unusual. Anyway not gonna be

[kppolich]

seriously, i keep coming back for pictures...

this^

Frames can almost be shipped in a double wheel box i've even shipped them in child carrier boxes with plenty of room to spare. File a claim.

[Bentley]

this^

Frames can almost be shipped in a double wheel box i've even shipped them in child carrier boxes with plenty of room to spare. File a claim.

I've got the. Don't know how to post them and I don't use hosting services. If you want ,PM me with your email and I will sent you one

Just to make sure you are clear, th frame had a small area, basically the triangle covered with cardboard. The headtube, BB, rear triangle was cover with one layer of small bubble wrap. I've gotten wheels that were wrapped with bubble wrap then encased in a large box that was tapped down, that at least covers the entire item. Anyway deal is done