On some level, we're all renters..

[Clean39T]

And I'm okay with that.

Do you consider yourself but a caretaker of whatever bike is currently in your stable? Or how do you square the ebb and flow of greater and lesser steeds?

My thought to post this came from an excerpt I browsed at the bookstore this weekend...

Edit: I can see how it reads like a bit of a scam...and misrepresenting condition at re-sale is not in my concept of renting as a caretaker...

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170425/2dc62bc4d4e9bdf037e6e075b83d2d91.jpg


Forum Quote du Jour:

"It's just a bike. If you want another and can afford it, buy it. It will be fast, if you pedal it fast." -- Jr59

[cinco]

That kind of reads like a scam. Does this person's friend ultimately misrepresent the clothes as NWT in order to get the highest $ in sale?

To your point, generally I keep my bikes in the best shape I can but they are a tool to be used as fully as I am capable. Sometimes, that means they get beaten up pretty good. If they are still rideable and I am done with them, I'll pass them on, but with full disclosure.

Andy in Houston

[54ny77]

Yes I do consider myself a caretaker. Someday, they'll move onto someone else who will use & appreciate it/them.

Problem is, I'm bike & bike parts hoarder and won't be letting go anytime soon. On 1 bike, I'm currently trying to convince myself that the Ultegra 6600 group on it, which looks and performs just splendid, is due for an upgrade. At this time, I'm not winning the argument with myself....

If I suddenly and unexpectedly croak, please assist my wife in getting the collection sorted & sold and/or donated. Those of you who know me know how to get a hold of her.

Paceline Estate Planning, at your service.

:banana:

[MattTuck]

I am just not sure that this makes any sense.

The whole argument behind owning vs. renting is that owners have an incentive to take better care of their possessions because they reap any rewards from selling them in the future.

In the case of the guy that 'rents' the clothes, he keeps them in good condition so that he can sell them for the highest price in the future. This is the definition of being an owner. If he rented them, he'd pay the store for the use of the garments, and then they'd be obligated to take them back at the end of the year. None of the downside risk in a renting arrangement is with the renter of the good. Think of renting an apartment. If all of a sudden that street becomes dangerous and the property value declines, the renter can just move and the landlord is the one whose value is impaired.

In the case of the clothes renter, if the value declines, HE is on the hook. Because, in fact, he is the owner. If he were renting, he would not care about whether the tags were available.

[Clean39T]

I am just not sure that this makes any sense.



The whole argument behind owning vs. renting is that owners have an incentive to take better care of their possessions because they reap any rewards from selling them in the future.



In the case of the guy that 'rents' the clothes, he keeps them in good condition so that he can sell them for the highest price in the future. This is the definition of being an owner. If he rented them, he'd pay the store for the use of the garments, and then they'd be obligated to take them back at the end of the year. None of the downside risk in a renting arrangement is with the renter of the good. Think of renting an apartment. If all of a sudden that street becomes dangerous and the property value declines, the renter can just move and the landlord is the one whose value is impaired.



In the case of the clothes renter, if the value declines, HE is on the hook. Because, in fact, he is the owner. If he were renting, he would not care about whether the tags were available.


Bit of a semantics issue here - I'm talking "renting" in more existential terms - things come and go, and one day return to the earth or sea - in the meantime, we are their caretakers - and our attachment to them, or willingness to let them come and go from our stables, may be informed by that mindset - I personally feel a duty to treat my bikes with reverence, especially the handmade, knowing they deserve a long life, and that such a life will likely not be confined to my garage - there's financial practicality to this, but also a sense of respect... And the non-attachment makes it easier to try new ones, and let old ones go, when the spirit moves.

Interestingly, I feel the same respect/reverence even when renting in the normative sense - the bike I rented on vacation got a bit of a tune-up while in my hands, and when I stay in an Air BnB, I leave it in as good of condition, or better, than when I walk in the door.


Forum Quote du Jour:

"It's just a bike. If you want another and can afford it, buy it. It will be fast, if you pedal it fast." -- Jr59

[cinco]

Clean39T, of course I did not think that the unfavorable interpretation is the one that you were relating to or condoning.

Especially since becoming a parent, I find that I care for of all kinds resources in a much less self-centric manner. I used to be all about me. Not so much anymore. There will be people coming up after me. Do I really want to leave them my mess to deal with? When I was younger, didn't really care. Now, I want to leave things so that I wasn't a burden.

[nash]

Sounds like the idea you're getting at is the larger transitory nature of all things... bikes, clothes, etc. And the respect each deserve as something of value. This view can also be extended to the land, our bodies, cultural things, other more intangible things...

I don't resell my clothes, sounds a bit much. I like to take care of my bikes though. I like to take care of all my things. You don't have to thing of resell value to take care of something though. And you don't have to sell something for it be returned to from where it came.

[fuzzalow]

The chap who views clothes as rental property must be a clothes horse and a dandy. Men's wear doesn't change quite that much from year to year but if he feels good flippin' his garb, more power to him.

IMO, used clothes are in the same league as used bikes - they're not worth much and almost never as much as the current owner wants to sell them for. Lotsa bikes, lotsa clothes, all different sizes and tastes and every seller thinks he's got what amounts to the Birkin bag that everybody's gotta have! Dream on.

The only used market I've experienced that has an overriding obsession with the goods being in perfect condition is the high-end audiophile gear market. So if some guy schmushes a corner on a Wilson speaker that cuts out 2/3rds of his buyers.

It is all part of the cost of livin' and lifestyle. Which means if somebody is obsessed about squeezing every dime from selling goods after they have used them, they are either very frugal, which is a good thing, or living beyond their means, which is its own problem.

Long ago, a coworker and me were talking about house hunting. We were both starting families and scouting towns in the NYC Metro area to buy into. We both laughed when someone chimed in about looking in Greenwich CT and we both simultaneously said "I can afford the house. I can't afford the lifestyle". Man's got to know his limitations.

[jlwdm]

My bikes do not come and go. I buy them, keep them and ride them. Getting ready to head out for a couple of hours now.

I might pay more for most things, but I buy things I like, take care of them and keep them for a long time. I hate buying something I don't end up liking no matter how low the price. Compromising on quality is the biggest mistake, and one I hopefully don't make too often.

Jeff

[54ny77]

maybe lloyd's of london can title insurance to bikes, so as to establish provenance. brilliant!

:bike:

[FlashUNC]

Wut?

This seems like the kind of approach that leads to keeping your couch in one of those plastic wrap things that grandma had.

Life's too short man. Enjoy what you got. Not like you can take it with you. If you're buying things with the eye towards what the next guy down the line is going to do with it, you're not really owning it and appreciating it. That kind of caretaker mentality for most goods just doesn't compute. Use it, let it get a patina and some scars and some stories man. And if it gets ruined at the end, well, it fulfilled its purpose.

Who wants that ugly yellow couch anyways?

http://www.cultureify.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/vinyl-covered-davenport.jpg

[gemship]

A friend of mine now acquaintance used to tell me I don't buy beer I rent it. I guess for him it made sense, it sounds cute. However there's nothing really cute about being an alcoholic.

[Clean39T]

Wut?



This seems like the kind of approach that leads to keeping your couch in one of those plastic wrap things that grandma had.



Life's too short man. Enjoy what you got. Not like you can take it with you. If you're buying things with the eye towards what the next guy down the line is going to do with it, you're not really owning it and appreciating it. That kind of caretaker mentality for most goods just doesn't compute. Use it, let it get a patina and some scars and some stories man. And if it gets ruined at the end, well, it fulfilled its purpose.



Who wants that ugly yellow couch anyways?



http://www.cultureify.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/vinyl-covered-davenport.jpg


Hilarious - and flashback inducing to my Floridian grandparents house of my youth..

Of course, one can both ride their bike hard AND show it respect - with the side bonus of that care/respect preserving value and usefulness for a future owner, which is a good thing even if that future owner is still you.


Forum Quote du Jour:

"It's just a bike. If you want another and can afford it, buy it. It will be fast, if you pedal it fast." -- Jr59

[Clean39T]

However there's nothing really cute about being an alcoholic.


Took me 23 years to learn this - but I'm happy I finally did..

The "Clean" part of "Clean39T" is about where the chain travels, a riff on a line in Krabbe's book, but I guess it applies to how I live now too :)


Forum Quote du Jour:

"It's just a bike. If you want another and can afford it, buy it. It will be fast, if you pedal it fast." -- Jr59

[MattTuck]

I do agree more with the care taker part. taking care of your stuff is a good habit to have.

As a counter-point, here's Hunter Thompson:
“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”

[MagicHour]

Haha, laugh it up. My aunt and uncle plasticized their sofa in the 70s, unwrapped it and then handed it "brand new" down to my grandmother who got like another 20 years out of it. :banana::)


Wut?

This seems like the kind of approach that leads to keeping your couch in one of those plastic wrap things that grandma had.

Life's too short man. Enjoy what you got. Not like you can take it with you. If you're buying things with the eye towards what the next guy down the line is going to do with it, you're not really owning it and appreciating it. That kind of caretaker mentality for most goods just doesn't compute. Use it, let it get a patina and some scars and some stories man. And if it gets ruined at the end, well, it fulfilled its purpose.

Who wants that ugly yellow couch anyways?

http://www.cultureify.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/vinyl-covered-davenport.jpg

[jlwdm]

Haha, laugh it up. My aunt and uncle plasticized their sofa in the 70s, unwrapped it and then handed it "brand new" down to my grandmother who got like another 20 years out of it. :banana::)

Too bad they did not keep it wrapped. It would be yours soon.

Jeff

[alterergo]

Too bad they did not keep it wrapped. It would be yours soon.
Jeff

Or boxed, you could pass it on to kids or grand kids.

[54ny77]

No self-respecting plastic slipcover-filled house was complete without a clear plastic runner from the front door to the kitchen. :banana:

[Vientomas]

Well, if you want to get completely existential...the elements which make up our bodies are not ours to keep. They are from the earth and return to the earth after we pass on...we use them for but a short period of time. All of us are renting on borrowed time. :eek:

[Clean39T]

Well, if you want to get completely existential...the elements which make up our bodies are not ours to keep. They are from the earth and return to the earth after we pass on...we use them for but a short period of time. All of us are renting on borrowed time. :eek:


All things are impermanent - except the memory of a forgotten anniversary.. [emoji12]


Forum Quote du Jour:

"It's just a bike. If you want another and can afford it, buy it. It will be fast, if you pedal it fast." -- Jr59

[batman1425]

Life's too short man. Enjoy what you got. Not like you can take it with you. If you're buying things with the eye towards what the next guy down the line is going to do with it, you're not really owning it and appreciating it. That kind of caretaker mentality for most goods just doesn't compute. Use it, let it get a patina and some scars and some stories man. And if it gets ruined at the end, well, it fulfilled its purpose.


I'm in this camp too. I don't take care of things to preserve resale for someone else, I take care of them to help make them last longer for me/get more use out of them. Use (but not abuse) "responsibly" to get maximal return.

Things will ultimately pick up signs of use along the way - that's part of every object's story, and reflective of ownership. Personally, I think it's cool to look at something I've owned for a long time and can recite what I was doing when that scratch or stain or whatever happened. It's all part of of the story.

[MagicHour]

I know...generations could've enjoyed that thing. Style police be damned. :)


Too bad they did not keep it wrapped. It would be yours soon.

Jeff

Or boxed, you could pass it on to kids or grand kids.

[Cloozoe]

Renting works for me --forgetting the issues of scams and not being able to enjoy it while you got it.

I'm a really curious kind of person and harbor a healthy skepticism. If I want to know how a bike rides or a classic fly rod fishes, only one way to find out: buy the damn thing and use it for a while. Problem with that approach is, you could quickly find yourself with $100k or more tied up in fly rods and bikes. Some people can afford that; I can't. But I can afford to own $100k worth of stuff sequentially. So I buy carefully, have fun, things come and things go and I find out what's what to my own satisfaction.

PS - As much fun as connoisseurship and the quest for something just a little bit better can be, you ultimately discover that it's just a bike or just a fly rod, albeit nice ones, and you wind up spending more time and energy riding and fishing than acquiring.

[Frankwurst]

Anybody that knows me can tell you straight out that I won't get any security deposit back on my clothes. :beer:

[makoti]

Renters take better care of stuff than owners? Buy a rental car. Be a landlord. This idea will make even less sense.

[daker13]

Sounds like the idea you're getting at is the larger transitory nature of all things... bikes, clothes, etc. And the respect each deserve as something of value. This view can also be extended to the land, our bodies, cultural things, other more intangible things...

I actually see it as the opposite: many of the things we own are surprisingly resilient, and hardly age at all while our skin goes loose, hair falls out, kids grow up, etc. In this sense, many of the things we own are going to outlast us and we indeed 'rent' them. Many of them will fall apart, many end up in the landfill, but some of them will pass on to someone else's hands.

I have a decent record collection at this point. When I die (or maybe when my kid goes to college, ha ha), my heirs are probably going to sell it some record store owner or antiques dealer. He's going to sell it piece by piece, and my collection's going to be parted out to a few hundred different people. Same things with my bikes, other people owned some of them at one time, now I own them, someone else will probably own them later.

[happycampyer]

This thread made me think of this ad campaign:

http://www.thefutureofluxury.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Screenshot_42.png

[livingminimal]

Jesus christ who has time to do any of that

[Clean39T]

This thread made me think of this ad campaign:



http://www.thefutureofluxury.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Screenshot_42.png


And from there to Pulp Fiction..

[choke]

"You only truly own what you can carry at a dead run." - Unknown

[gemship]

Took me 23 years to learn this - but I'm happy I finally did..

The "Clean" part of "Clean39T" is about where the chain travels, a riff on a line in Krabbe's book, but I guess it applies to how I live now too :)


Forum Quote du Jour:

"It's just a bike. If you want another and can afford it, buy it. It will be fast, if you pedal it fast." -- Jr59

Congrats and one day at a time as they say. I like your handle, meaningful.

[gemship]

I will say I tend to equate vehicle ownership, specifically cars and trucks much like renting. Whether or not one buys a car outright or leases it or makes payments toward ownership. I always buy mine used and outright meaning no payments. So I divide the total cost of purchase price, repairs and maintenance plus title fee and sales tax by months owned. All my vehicles tend to be sheet boxes so I usually get around fives years of ownership at a cost of about two hundred bucks a month renting that is.

[93KgBike]

All of these things of matter, all the energies they implore all as old as the universe. What is owning? Or using? Or care taking? Or not ing.

[Black Dog]

Renters take better care of stuff than owners? Buy a rental car. Be a landlord. This idea will make even less sense.

LOL...so very true. The concept of vested interest matters...a lot.

[froze]

Renting? nah, I have a bike I bought new in 1984, have no desire to sell to someone else, so that bike is way beyond renting, with over 150,000 miles it I own that sucker, just as I own all my other bikes.

[KJMUNC]

LOL...so very true. The concept of vested interest matters...a lot.

Amen. There's a big shift towards the rental vs owning construct....it's a generational thing, but that's all great if you a.) plan ahead and save or b.) are completely ok with an unplanned, unknown future with zero expectations of maintaining your lifestyle. Most people don't do a.) and are ok with b.) until they're not, then all of a sudden it's someone else's fault.

On a deeper plane I agree that we're all renters of everything.....we only own the things we have as much as our societal rules allow it. It's all just matter in different forms.....fancy clothes money, people....we're all just subatomic matter arranged in different forms. In a cosmic sense, if we're renting.....from whom are we renting?

I just prefer to subscribe to the mantra of: do what you love, do no harm.

If that means renting, buying, or neither then so be it.

[Clean39T]

On a deeper plane I agree that we're all renters of everything.....we only own the things we have as much as our societal rules allow it. It's all just matter in different forms.....fancy clothes money, people....we're all just subatomic matter arranged in different forms. In a cosmic sense, if we're renting.....from whom are we renting?



I just prefer to subscribe to the mantra of: do what you love, do no harm.



If that means renting, buying, or neither then so be it.


Cheers to that - just threw out some food for thought to see how folks related to their "things" - has been fun to see the responses :)

[froze]

I relate things that if I don't owe on it it's owned then. I own my cars and my house and a few rentals, the only "rent" thing with the house and rentals is the taxes due on it every 6 months. I do have another rental property that is financed, so I guess one could say I'm renting from the bank, but unlike renting where you never own it, I will eventually own it except for the taxes, I can't own the taxes.

I guess philosophically one could say everything we own is rented from God since we can't take what we own to heaven after we die.

[fuzzalow]

Whatever happen to the saying "he who dies with the most toys, wins"?

Kind of a repugnant philosophy to espouse, utterly devoid of taste and nuance. Reminds me of somebody... Well, there's always somebody richer. The point here is that, the saying isn't "he who rents the most stuff, wins".

The other side of this is owning too much stuff is a PITA too. Mick Jagger, in ruminating on the trappings of rock star materialism, once described owning all kinds of stuff as "Rings around your neck".

Do what makes you happy, there is a price to be paid for everything.

[numbskull]

I like to wear stuff out. Makes me feel good about having bought it.

By the way, wasn't Krabbe's line about a clean as a whistle 21 cog rather than a chain ring?