CIOCC/PELIZOLLI frame value

[luglust]

This is pretty windy, forgive me. Purchase via internet from Italy through a selling agent in Milan. History...before the sale, after many ?'s the selling agent took the frame to Pelizolli and he identified the frame by the lugs and said it was part of a big production run. He hand signed the frame with red pen low on ink. Is a real signature no doubt. On 'flicker' under Pelizolli there is a pic of a of white frame of the seat lug area and top tube were he signed. Same pic is all over the net. Its got Pelizolli decals. The frame pic was from sellers phone thus fuzzy. After purchase I emailed Allesandro of Pelizolli. He said it was from late 70's, they had just started using micro fusion lug sets and probably a CL or CLX as cataloged. Its a CL, no rifling of SLX tubes to be felt. Pinned construction too. He also said at that time about 6 people made up the shop . I have no reason to doubt any of this. Also the person who originally purchased in Italy had the frame stripped and repainted from blue to the white with Pelizolli deacals applied not CIOCC. The lugs are not the older CIOCC lugs with the ' club ' cut out. This would explain the newer look of micro fusion lugs. The BB shell has the CIOCC cut out. I printed copies of all pics and emails with dates and conversations with seller, Allesandro and Pelizolli comments. There a lot of gray area about Ciocc built frames concerning time lines, sale of the name etc. I have more details but this is already long winded post , forgive me. Again I have no reason to doubt. Its no Mockba or San Cristobal etc. But probably a CL offered by Ten Speed Drive, it fits the time line maybe ? The frame has a lot of paint worn off on chain stays , along with usual cosmetic wear. But solid. I would like to hear what you have to say and maybe its value. Its not an outstanding frame but i have history and real signature. Thanks.

[ultraman6970]

Just to start you have to post a picture, at the time of numbers the condition of the frame is everything, secondly the brand and year... old stuff is old stuff and no matter who made it because as pelizolli said, they made a few hundreds of those if not thousands of them so uniqueness is not something you have to account in the price aswell.

W/o looking at it if the condition is ok to the point of not needing a new paint job you could be talking of 350 bucks, now if you need a new paint job and everything then probably doenst even worth your time to even get into it because a new paint job can go for 500 bucks and at that point if you want to sell it later there is no way somebody will pay you the investment to restore the frame unless you got it for almost nothing.

Example, there's a paletti at ebay, seller wants like 650 bucks for it but the chrome is gone and need new paint job, big no no unless you get that one for 100 bucks. Old bike is old bike sadly.

[luglust]

Well, its wishful thinking on my part I'm afraid. Your comments are well taken and fully understood.

[rccardr]

Pictures of actual frame and current condition would certainly help determine value. Late 70's without cutouts could mean it's a post-name-sale frame. But remember that Sr. Pelizzoli continued to make Ciocc frames for the new owners for a while after the sale, so it could still be a Pelizzoli built frame.

At the end of the day, you just bought it and had it shipped to you from Italy, so to you it's worth what you paid for it, yes?

[cachagua]

Does it ride nice.

[ultraman6970]

It is so hard to tell sometimes because many people get the bikes to restore them and put them in their collection, but if the intention is to restore it, use it a few years and sell it is always good to have in mind that is hard to see the money back in restoration projects.

My rule... chrome is bad then just wait for the next one because here there is no way to get a chrome job done for cheap, love chrome but back in the 40s and 60s chrome jobs were thousands of times better than back in the 80s and 90s. Triple plated vs platina bath.

Btw Im not a collector and my list of restoration projects is not larger than two and from those 2, I did not get my money back at all. One thing is for sure, the guys that are riding those bikes are super happy :D

[luglust]

Well heres the skinny thats been in my head...since the frame was presented to Pelizolli and he hand singed it, identified the time period by the lugs hope it had some value. Then the history of the frame was know to Allesasndro etc. I don't think he made it up. It had early Pelizolli decals which is why i bought it. Pelizolli commented he didn't know if he made it but probably supervised it in his shop of 6. The frame needs painted but that detracts from his hand signature, so less value. Ive never ridden it. Im not a restorer or collect em, just an enthusiast that was once in the bike biz for short time in late 80's.
Im to lame to send pics, opinions would point out paint needed etc. Just gonna have to swallow what i paid for it. I know a lot of frame builders practiced making frames under different names or farmed them out to somebody. There are some many spins on Ciocc's its wacky. My favorite is he had a bunch of small shops and he went around to them and supervised the building. It could fe true.

Fishing for some confirmation from the culture , its not the kind i want but its what i expected. I will probably leave as is built it up single speed and be my town rider.
I do have a Yoshi Kono built Allez purchased from original owner i used to ride with. That feels better....ah.

[luglust]

rccardr, i got hosed. wha wha. not bad but still.

[rccardr]

Well, not necessarily...hosed. I don't know what you paid for the frame, but that's beside the point. As you pointed out, Sr. Pelizzoli confirmed it is a frame built out of his shop. If you like the frame and ride it & appreciate that it came out of one of the storied racing frame establlishments of its time, then that is what's important. Nothing else.

Finally, Pelizzoli frames have never really been that sought after or expensive. He was a pretty prolific guy, built under several names (including a variation on his first name, about 130 frames), plus contract work for others. Sure, a San Cristobal with racing provenance could bring some money, so could one of the gold plated ones. But even today, a new Pelizzoli built lugged steel frame shipped to the US costs about the same as a Della Santa.

[oldpotatoe]

rccardr, i got hosed. wha wha. not bad but still.

I have a 1985 Ciocc SL and it's one of the 3 best riding frames I have ever had..:)

[Joachim]

Maybe $200-$500

[tctyres]

Maybe $200-$500

^Tops. Shipped.

OP needs to post pics.

[luglust]

I have 2 other Ciocc slx frames. One with steep crit. angles that accelerates and climbs easily. The other is one of those granite black chrome frames with more relaxed angles, more comfy. The 1st mentioned i rode for years. Was younger and slimmer the rude ride was fine after i found my form for the season.

accardr, the 1st name variation is GION yes ? I like Ciocc's , the Pelizolli built ones mostly not so much after he sold the name in 1980. Although i think he was still building a few after 1980. I like the way they ride, the odd name, the graphics and the fact he is not the biggest deal in town, but a good deal. He still makes em too. the artisan at work. Thats in my blood .
the orignal frame in ? definitely needs paint, its nothing unusual. The history , correspondence gets me drunk. Pics are N.A.

If anyone has a World 77 out there 57.5 to 59 cm. seat, drop me a line.

[luglust]

Della Santa still makes frames ?

[rccardr]

Heck, yeah.

Pelizzoli does, too, although in limited quantities. Visited his shop in October 2015 with some ideas, mostly to make an Eroica style frame like he did back in the 60's but with modern tubing and lugs. Took him almost a year, but I eventually got it. He builds maybe 12-15 frames a year, now in his mid 70's.

[luglust]

Are referring to a visit with Pelizolli or Della Santa about the Eroica ideas ?

[rccardr]

Pelizzoli.

He has a small shop in Curno, outside of Bergamo, not too far from Milan. As of October 2015, he was doing all of the metal frame building and repair in a section of the shop in the rear, while the carbon work and painting was done on the other side.

My understanding at the time was that the majority of their sales were carbon frames. Since the web site has changed twice (and is now 'curtained') and the corporate name has changed, my guess is that Sr. Pelizzoli sold the company, perhaps to a son or nephew, and they will be changing their lineup of products.

[luglust]

I think the new company is Cicili Corsa. Yeah the website is frozen.

The selling agent for said frame is based in Milan. She said she would be near Curno in a day and could take the frame to Pelizolli. Sure I said, can he sign it too? That started the transaction rolling.
Must have been a kick to visit the shop. Sounds like PaPa is taking things at his own pace in his small space, while the rest of the shop transforms and moves on.

[homagesilkhope]

I've been visiting Pelizzoli's workshop in Curno once or twice a year since May of 2000. The shop built several alu cross frames for me during the first five or six years of those visits. Pelizolli was always easy about "brand," insisting that he'd put whatever name on the downtube I liked (eg, Coppi, Guerciotti, Concorde) seeing as how he acts/has acted as terzista for each of those brands as well as numerous others over the years, I assume. Those cross bikes rode great, and for all of the man's bravado and occasional bluster and delays and - yes - sometimes goofs, he does seem to have a good sense of "where to put the wheels." In all of my visits, I've never seen Pelizzoli handle a torch. Son Samuel and daughter-in-law have been working at the shop for most of the years I've been visiting and at least one member of the staff has been there throughout. As far as I can tell, Pelizzoli put himself in a management role long ago, and then for the last ten years (after beating cancer) his role has been mostly "owner." He still takes measurements for custom builds and likes to lend the workshop local color.

Cicli Corsa is a different business just a kilometer or two away, back towards the center of Bergamo. The first time I went to Bergamo was to visit FIR, but they are sadly gone these last 10 - 12 years. (Actually, Gist finally bought the mark a few years ago, but they're over near Castelfranco Veneto where there's a whole nother industry crowd close by.) Still, PMP, WR Compositi, Legend, Ciocc, Santini, Kask, Deda, both Vittoria and Veloflex and others I'm not thinking of right now survive and are all within a few K's of one another there in Bergamo. Plus, Colnago's just on the other side of the A4 and, if you triangulate, you'll come to Bianchi, both roughly 20 kilometers from Pelizzoli.

[giordana93]

Maybe $200-$500

This. Unless you find a nut job collector. I love old steel frames but they are usually about as collectible as old beer cans. Find a nice one, treat it right and ride it. That's the only reason to own these old bikes, not to collect signatures like they are Picasso's. Rant over.

[luglust]

homagesilkhope...You got the dope on that. Pretty interesting. Visits since 2005, thats getting out of town.

[Duende]

I have 2 other Ciocc slx frames. One with steep crit. angles that accelerates and climbs easily. The other is one of those granite black chrome frames with more relaxed angles, more comfy. The 1st mentioned i rode for years. Was younger and slimmer the rude ride was fine after i found my form for the season.

accardr, the 1st name variation is GION yes ? I like Ciocc's , the Pelizolli built ones mostly not so much after he sold the name in 1980. Although i think he was still building a few after 1980. I like the way they ride, the odd name, the graphics and the fact he is not the biggest deal in town, but a good deal. He still makes em too. the artisan at work. Thats in my blood .
the orignal frame in ? definitely needs paint, its nothing unusual. The history , correspondence gets me drunk. Pics are N.A.

If anyone has a World 77 out there 57.5 to 59 cm. seat, drop me a line.

You sure it was 1980? I thought it was a few years later when you stopped seeing his name on the top tube. Like 85 or 86.

I too am looking for a world 77. Have a very clean 70's san cristobal that is trade for it. Need a 56 though!

[cachagua]

I've got a 56 that'll be on the block soon, but it's more recent -- a Designer '84.

[rccardr]

Pelizzoli ordered directly at the shop October 2015, delivered August 2016, with Campagnolo SR Pat 81:

http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/Jan%202017%20Occoquan%20Pel_zpsa3jqfs9h.jpg (http://s797.photobucket.com/user/rccardr/media/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/Jan%202017%20Occoquan%20Pel_zpsa3jqfs9h.jpg.html)

With Deore 6 speed, 50-/34 compact crank, 700 X 32 Gravel Kings for Cino Heroica:

http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/Pel%20with%2032%20GK_zpsabiritzu.jpg (http://s797.photobucket.com/user/rccardr/media/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/Pel%20with%2032%20GK_zpsabiritzu.jpg.html)

With 650B setup for Tour of Tucson:

http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/Pel%20650B%20NDS_zpsgkcn3tc1.jpg (http://s797.photobucket.com/user/rccardr/media/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/Pel%20650B%20NDS_zpsgkcn3tc1.jpg.html)

[luglust]

its got brake cable clamps,thats old. And there's no rust on the lugs, eh? Bella! You seem to have good access to Italian cycling culture.

[rccardr]

Yep, it was made just about a year ago & that's how I wanted it built- Sr. Pelizzoli referred to it as the 'Eroica' bike.

I told him I wanted a frame like he used to build back in the 60's and 70's- top tube cable clamps, over the BB cable routing, pantographing, classic Campagnolo dropouts- but with modern touches like Spirit tubing, two sets of cage mounts, the ability to take up to a 700 x 32 tire, and lotsa chrome.

[luglust]

rccardr i PM you. Spirit tubes ??

[papalok]

Damn that Eroica bike is nice.
Guess we might as well make this the share your Ciocc thread. Here's my daily rider. 82-ish mockba.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1499/26411917910_a29510650c_c.jpg
and speaking of signed Picasso's... ;D
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4039/4184414790_e3ac72bc85.jpg

[gemship]

This. Unless you find a nut job collector. I love old steel frames but they are usually about as collectible as old beer cans. Find a nice one, treat it right and ride it. That's the only reason to own these old bikes, not to collect signatures like they are Picasso's. Rant over.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I'm so not a collector but I do have some commonsense...I think. Well one thing that kinda gets me though is that wicked devotion/love for the old Mercxk steel on here. Pretty sure they fetch a better price as frame sets than the 200/500$ value mentioned in previous postings. I'm not really sure why though, especially after reading the last post before yours, there is some interesting living history there. I personally find a CIOCC every bit as aesthetically good as a Mercxk, a difference in the ride I have no idea.

[choke]

Damn that Eroica bike is nice.
Guess we might as well make this the share your Ciocc thread. Here's my daily rider. 82-ish mockba.I've seen Doc's bike in person and it is gorgeous.

And I'll play....how about one of each?

http://www.cycle.ciocctoo.com/cousins.jpg

[tctyres]

I've seen Doc's bike in person and it is gorgeous.

And I'll play....how about one of each?

http://www.cycle.ciocctoo.com/cousins.jpg

Tell me about the drive train on the Ciocc? Is that 8 speed Campy?

[choke]

Tell me about the drive train on the Ciocc? Is that 8 speed Campy?Your guess is correct except for the freewheel....it's a Sachs Aris 7sp mounted on Bullseye hubs. The big chainring is a long out of production QBP branded 50T (on a C-Record crank).

[luglust]

More Ciocc /Pelizolli pics!!

[e-RICHIE]

More Ciocc /Pelizolli pics!!

The guy that put the brand on the map.

http://www.cyclemagazine.eu/cycle/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/corti1.jpg

[rccardr]

http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/1%20DM%20and%20GP%20in%20his%20shop_zpsnc0hfwyt.jp g (http://s797.photobucket.com/user/rccardr/media/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/1%20DM%20and%20GP%20in%20his%20shop_zpsnc0hfwyt.jp g.html)
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/2%20Pelizzoli%20shop%20B_zpsko3mgul2.jpg (http://s797.photobucket.com/user/rccardr/media/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/2%20Pelizzoli%20shop%20B_zpsko3mgul2.jpg.html)
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/3%20Pelizzoli%20shop%20C%20San%20Cris_zpslsw9wzbw. jpg (http://s797.photobucket.com/user/rccardr/media/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/3%20Pelizzoli%20shop%20C%20San%20Cris_zpslsw9wzbw. jpg.html)
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/12%20Pel%20build%201%20seat%20lugs%20B_zpsz6szqh7d .jpg (http://s797.photobucket.com/user/rccardr/media/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/12%20Pel%20build%201%20seat%20lugs%20B_zpsz6szqh7d .jpg.html)
http://i797.photobucket.com/albums/yy254/rccardr/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/16%20Pel%20fork%20crown_zpsl0doeohq.jpg (http://s797.photobucket.com/user/rccardr/media/Pelizzoli%20Eroica/16%20Pel%20fork%20crown_zpsl0doeohq.jpg.html)

[papalok]

that fork crown and seat cluster.
also my pic; not my bike. taken some years back on Mt. Diablo.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4080/4894844193_2a75bf8f07_b.jpg

[giordana93]

I've seen Doc's bike in person and it is gorgeous.

And I'll play....how about one of each?

http://www.cycle.ciocctoo.com/cousins.jpg

Those are beautiful.

[luglust]

chrome,paint,craft, the old guy in his shop,history. If theres more to add,lets see