Landis Redux Atmo

[atmo]

another very good article appears here (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/08/16/opinion/edeustice.php) atmo.


this parts sounds familiar atmo -
<<<The real trick on the day was the 55 bottles of cold water in the team car.
Landis, alone in front as planned for easy access to them, continuously poured
them over his head and body, keeping him in a "thermoneutral" state.
Behind, the chasers, with less access to liquids, raced with core body
temperatures reflecting the day's scorching heat.>>>

[Bill Bove]

Eustice argues Landis' case well and I really hope that he is proved innocent but I just don't see how it can be done. It does seem that D!ck Pound has made up his mind...

[Grant McLean]

The real redux of the situation is this:

Stage 17 doesn't matter,
The other 10 Phonak doping cases don't matter,
What Lance thinks doesn't matter,
The history of doping doesn't matter,
How genuine Floyd's parents are don't matter,
The press leaks don't matter,
The JD excuse doesn't matter.


IF Floyd & Co. manipulated his testosterone he's guilty.

All the other stuff is neither proof nor evidence of what he did or didn't do,
and it shouldn't be talked about in the same breath.

Floyd should take the lie detector test, it's a good idea, give the money to
a charity if he passes.

g

[Gothard]

Follow me on this:
The racer provides a sample (blood, urine) in an anonymous vial, that carries ID numbers, codes, whatever, that are known to an authority, which is *not involved* in the testing itself, to avoid any bias.
The samples (as many as there have been taken that particular day) are sent by a carrier to the lab. The carrier does not know which sample belongs to whom.
The lab recieves the coded samples and analyses them, and in case of any abnormal testing, they notify the authority that sample number that and that is abnormal, for this and this product.

How could the lab know that the sample belonged to Landis? Are they not supposed to ignore which sample belongs to whom, to ensure unbiased analisis? How could they leak that info out??

To go one step further, how could the Tour society trust a lab that has already leaked info (Armstrong data), that was clearly confidential??

Add to that the anti-US bias of l'equipe, and the fact that for a reason the leak would have gone to them, and well, yes there is matter for doubt.

[SoCalSteve]

The real redux of the situation is this:

Stage 17 doesn't matter,
The other 10 Phonak doping cases don't matter,
What Lance thinks doesn't matter,
The history of doping doesn't matter,
How genuine Floyd's parents are don't matter,
The press leaks don't matter,

IF Floyd & Co. manipulated his testosterone he's guilty.

All the other stuff is neither proof nor evidence of what he did or didn't do,
and it shouldn't be talked about in the same breath.

Floyd should take the lie detector test, it's a good idea, give the money to
a charity if he passes.
g

With all due respect....

If a lie detector test doesnt hold up in a court of law, why would it hold up in a court of WADA (or whatever other court system he will try his case in)?

If in fact he is proven innocent, and he is allowed to hold the title and reap the rewards (financial), why would he give it to charity? If he gets exonerated then he will have won, fair and square, right? If so, he is entitled to reap all the financial rewards.

Just another opinion,

Steve

PS: I do lots of volunteer work for charity. I just dont see the reasoning or logic as to why he would need to give up his just financial rewards.

[swoop]

this is where i am now.. for whatever reason floyd tested positive for a banned substance. however it got there, it did not enhance his performance. i resent the eruos hystrionic reaction and self righteousness.

floyd has the burden of proving his innocence. wada should have the burden of proving that the meds were performane enhancing.

and whatever grandstanding the euros are doing.. let's start by taking back riis's yellow jersey, virenques polka dots, museew's brick mantlepieces, etc.
i resent the grandstanding more than any doping.

[72gmc]

by the time this is all over, d**k pound will be stomping around with his hand stuffed into his shirt, calling for josephine. and then the young men in their clean white coats will take him away ha ha.

it's the only positive outcome that seems likely.

[Grant McLean]

Follow me on this:
The racer provides a sample (blood, urine) in an anonymous vial, that carries ID numbers, codes, whatever, that are known to an authority, which is *not involved* in the testing itself, to avoid any bias.
The samples (as many as there have been taken that particular day) are sent by a carrier to the lab. The carrier does not know which sample belongs to whom.
The lab recieves the coded samples and analyses them, and in case of any abnormal testing, they notify the authority that sample number that and that is abnormal, for this and this product.

How could the lab know that the sample belonged to Landis? Are they not supposed to ignore which sample belongs to whom, to ensure unbiased analisis? How could they leak that info out??


I suppose it depends on what you mean in general by "the lab"?

I'm sure the guy doing the test has no idea who the samples belong to,
there's just supposed to be numbers on the sample tube.

If the test is for real, and the results are a realistic result of what was actually
in the his pee, then what happens next? The results are handed to someone
else who works in a different dept of the company to contact the riders team.
It would take quite a conspiracy to cook up this whole thing.

It's easy for people to say "the lab", what does that mean?? The guy that
runs the show has it in for Floyd??

g

[Grant McLean]

this is where i am now.. for whatever reason floyd tested positive for a banned substance. however it got there, it did not enhance his performance. i resent the eruos hystrionic reaction and self righteousness.

floyd has the burden of proving his innocence. wada should have the burden of proving that the meds were performane enhancing.

and whatever grandstanding the euros are doing.. let's start by taking back riis's yellow jersey, virenques polka dots, museew's brick mantlepieces, etc.
i resent the grandstanding more than any doping.

I was right there with you until the last part.

Assuming the test did catch something on Floyd, the other dudes never got caught.

g

[bfd]

another very good article appears here (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/08/16/opinion/edeustice.php) atmo.


this parts sounds familiar atmo -
<<<The real trick on the day was the 55 bottles of cold water in the team car.
Landis, alone in front as planned for easy access to them, continuously poured
them over his head and body, keeping him in a "thermoneutral" state.
Behind, the chasers, with less access to liquids, raced with core body
temperatures reflecting the day's scorching heat.>>>

This is interesting. Here it says Floyd used "55 bottles of cold water." Yet, one of Floyd's coaches, Allen Lim, has stated that Floyd used 70 bottles of water:

http://tinyurl.com/sxfwa

Maybe the extra 15 bottles of water was hot?

In any event, 55 or 70, it sure makes you wonder why Floyd's lawyers are arguing "dehydration?" Wouldn't Floyd have drank some of the water? Or was all 55/70 bottles dumped on his head?

Floyd's coaches, Allen Lim and Robbie Ventura, have both been very, very silent. Who in their right mind would hire these guys now?!

[Bill Bove]

I was right there with you until the last part.

Assuming the test did catch something on Floyd, the other dudes never got caught.

g
Didn't Virinque later admit to doing something?

[catulle]

This is interesting. Here it says Floyd used "55 bottles of cold water." Yet, one of Floyd's coaches, Allen Lim, has stated that Floyd used 70 bottles of water:

http://tinyurl.com/sxfwa

Maybe the extra 15 bottles of water was hot?

In any event, 55 or 70, it sure makes you wonder why Floyd's lawyers are arguing "dehydration?" Wouldn't Floyd have drank some of the water? Or was all 55/70 bottles dumped on his head?

Floyd's coaches, Allen Lim and Robbie Ventura, have both been very, very silent. Who in their right mind would hire these guys now?!


How do you think that Floyd handled his business? Pulling his bibs down or lifting the cuff? His must have been a very efficient method, atmo. :eek:

[swoop]

this landis affair just took a tragic turn. floyd's wife's father was found dead in a car from a gunshot wound near sand diego. they were close friends. no word on if it's suicide.....

when you scale this all down to the level of an individual coping with an incredible circumstance and scrutiny... its all seems so wrong.

[Grant McLean]

With all due respect....

If a lie detector test doesnt hold up in a court of law, why would it hold up in a court of WADA (or whatever other court system he will try his case in)?

If in fact he is proven innocent, and he is allowed to hold the title and reap the rewards (financial), why would he give it to charity? If he gets exonerated then he will have won, fair and square, right? If so, he is entitled to reap all the financial rewards.

Just another opinion,

Steve

PS: I do lots of volunteer work for charity. I just dont see the reasoning or logic as to why he would need to give up his just financial rewards.

It's not about court, it's about belief.

He's never going to be able to prove he's innocent,
but some people might believe what he's saying if he passed
a lie detector test. that's all.

g

[Grant McLean]

this landis affair just took a tragic turn. floyd's wife's father was found dead in a car from a gunshot wound near sand diego. they were close friends. no word on if it's suicide.....

when you scale this all down to the level of an individual coping with an incredible circumstance and scrutiny... its all seems so wrong.

WOW.


By Debbi Farr Baker
UNION-TRIBUNE BREAKING NEWS TEAM

1:46 p.m. August 16, 2006

SAN DIEGO – David Witt, the 57-year-old father-in-law of embattled Tour de France winner Floyd Landis has died, authorities said Wednesday.
Witt was found dead in his car Tuesday afternoon in a North Park parking garage, according to his friends.


An investigator with the San Diego County Medical Examiner's office confirmed Witt's death but said the cause was still under investigation.
San Diego police reported that a man had committed suicide Tuesday afternoon in a parking garage in North Park. The man was found at 3:14 p.m. and was taken to Mercy Hospital where he was pronounced dead, said San Diego police Detective Gary Hassen.

Witt and his wife Rose own Hawthorn's restaurant in North Park on 29th Street and University Avenue, where Landis memorabilia, including two of his jerseys and several magazine covers, adorn the walls.

Andres Banuelos, a chef for Witt for more than 18 years, confirmed Witt's death.

“He was very nice, a very happy man,” Banuelos said. “I really don't know what happened. It surprised me. I'm shocked.”

Witt and Landis first became friends when they used the same cycling coach and became roommates in 1998 shortly after Landis moved to San Diego.

The two later became related after Witt introduced Landis to his girlfriend Rose's daughter from a previous marriage, Amber Basile. The two couples married, and the former roommates were best men in each other's weddings.

In July, Witt and his wife went to France to watch Landis' victory at the ceremonial finish of the Tour de France on the Champs-Elysees.

Landis, who lives in Murrieta, has since tested positive for testosterone and his Tour victory is in jeopardy.

[fstrthnu]

I was looking through some old stuff while visiting my parents house this morning and found a nice, small, handcarved wooden box. Curious, I opened it up and found a Credit Lyonnais medal from the 1999 Tour de L'Avenir (U-25 Tour de France). On the back is engraved "1999 Tour de L'Avenir 1er Classement General par Equipe Saint Prouant-Montbron". Translation: 1st in Team General Classification, Saint Prouant-Montbron.
I (we) won this medal riding for Team Mercury as a stagiere in 1999. Floyd Landis and David Clinger were our Team captains and I slotted in nicely as the 19 year old kid who rode his balls of for the Team and still finished high enough to get the team a good GC time (I remember I finished one rider behing the then current Yellow Jersey on that stage). Anyways... I am drifting.
My point is... Wow. *** is going on?
What seperates Floyd from David from Me from the other guys that were on that Mercury squad? Is it talent? Is it Guts? Is it wreckless abandon?
I wish I had Floyds number because I would love to talk with him. I would like to tell him he was def my hero when I was on Mercury. I probably wouldn't tell him that now he is just becoming another loser by lying to the world. I probably wouldn't tell him about the look in my Moms eyes when I tell her that he is "probably lying". She was so happy when Floyd won. Now what. Now my parents ask Me if he was doping and I have to think about lying to my parents just because I don't want to see that look in their eyes.
What is all this "suppose this and suppose that" bull*****. Why can't people just accept the fact that he failed 2 doping tests? Why? Because it hurts. Thats why.

Fstrthnu

[swoop]

I was looking through some old stuff while visiting my parents house this morning and found a nice, small, handcarved wooden box. Curious, I opened it up and found a Credit Lyonnais medal from the 1999 Tour de L'Avenir (U-25 Tour de France). On the back is engraved "1999 Tour de L'Avenir 1er Classement General par Equipe Saint Prouant-Montbron". Translation: 1st in Team General Classification, Saint Prouant-Montbron.
I (we) won this medal riding for Team Mercury as a stagiere in 1999. Floyd Landis and David Clinger were our Team captains and I slotted in nicely as the 19 year old kid who rode his balls of for the Team and still finished high enough to get the team a good GC time (I remember I finished one rider behing the then current Yellow Jersey on that stage). Anyways... I am drifting.
My point is... Wow. *** is going on?
What seperates Floyd from David from Me from the other guys that were on that Mercury squad? Is it talent? Is it Guts? Is it wreckless abandon?
I wish I had Floyds number because I would love to talk with him. I would like to tell him he was def my hero when I was on Mercury. I probably wouldn't tell him that now he is just becoming another loser by lying to the world. I probably wouldn't tell him about the look in my Moms eyes when I tell her that he is "probably lying". She was so happy when Floyd won. Now what. Now my parents ask Me if he was doping and I have to think about lying to my parents just because I don't want to see that look in their eyes.
What is all this "suppose this and suppose that" bull*****. Why can't people just accept the fact that he failed 2 doping tests? Why? Because it hurts. Thats why.

Fstrthnu
+1

[catulle]

WOW.


By Debbi Farr Baker
UNION-TRIBUNE BREAKING NEWS TEAM

1:46 p.m. August 16, 2006

SAN DIEGO – David Witt, the 57-year-old father-in-law of embattled Tour de France winner Floyd Landis has died, authorities said Wednesday.
Witt was found dead in his car Tuesday afternoon in a North Park parking garage, according to his friends.


An investigator with the San Diego County Medical Examiner's office confirmed Witt's death but said the cause was still under investigation.
San Diego police reported that a man had committed suicide Tuesday afternoon in a parking garage in North Park. The man was found at 3:14 p.m. and was taken to Mercy Hospital where he was pronounced dead, said San Diego police Detective Gary Hassen.

Witt and his wife Rose own Hawthorn's restaurant in North Park on 29th Street and University Avenue, where Landis memorabilia, including two of his jerseys and several magazine covers, adorn the walls.

Andres Banuelos, a chef for Witt for more than 18 years, confirmed Witt's death.

“He was very nice, a very happy man,” Banuelos said. “I really don't know what happened. It surprised me. I'm shocked.”

Witt and Landis first became friends when they used the same cycling coach and became roommates in 1998 shortly after Landis moved to San Diego.

The two later became related after Witt introduced Landis to his girlfriend Rose's daughter from a previous marriage, Amber Basile. The two couples married, and the former roommates were best men in each other's weddings.

In July, Witt and his wife went to France to watch Landis' victory at the ceremonial finish of the Tour de France on the Champs-Elysees.

Landis, who lives in Murrieta, has since tested positive for testosterone and his Tour victory is in jeopardy.

So sad. God bless them.

[fstrthnu]

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 1 characters.

[GoJavs]

I was looking through some old stuff while visiting my parents house this morning and found a nice, small, handcarved wooden box. Curious, I opened it up and found a Credit Lyonnais medal from the 1999 Tour de L'Avenir (U-25 Tour de France). On the back is engraved "1999 Tour de L'Avenir 1er Classement General par Equipe Saint Prouant-Montbron". Translation: 1st in Team General Classification, Saint Prouant-Montbron.
I (we) won this medal riding for Team Mercury as a stagiere in 1999. Floyd Landis and David Clinger were our Team captains and I slotted in nicely as the 19 year old kid who rode his balls of for the Team and still finished high enough to get the team a good GC time (I remember I finished one rider behing the then current Yellow Jersey on that stage). Anyways... I am drifting.
My point is... Wow. *** is going on?
What seperates Floyd from David from Me from the other guys that were on that Mercury squad? Is it talent? Is it Guts? Is it wreckless abandon?
I wish I had Floyds number because I would love to talk with him. I would like to tell him he was def my hero when I was on Mercury. I probably wouldn't tell him that now he is just becoming another loser by lying to the world. I probably wouldn't tell him about the look in my Moms eyes when I tell her that he is "probably lying". She was so happy when Floyd won. Now what. Now my parents ask Me if he was doping and I have to think about lying to my parents just because I don't want to see that look in their eyes.
What is all this "suppose this and suppose that" bull*****. Why can't people just accept the fact that he failed 2 doping tests? Why? Because it hurts. Thats why.

Fstrthnu

POST OF THE YEAR. THANK YOU, FSTRTHNU!

[Big Dan]

Reality Bites.............people can't deal with it........... :(

[rob137]

Snipped

What seperates Floyd from David from Me from the other guys that were on that Mercury squad? Is it talent? Is it Guts? Is it wreckless abandon?


Why can't people just accept the fact that he failed 2 doping tests? Why? Because it hurts. Thats why.

Fstrthnu

Yes, Yes, Probably.

It doesn't hurt, I just don't buy it. I don't trust the science and I don't trust the methodology. I also just can't accept that 1 dose of anything raises you to that level of performance overnight. It just doesn't compute.

I don't think he did it. I couldn't have picked Floyd out of a lineup before this years tour and I could care less about bike racing as a sport. I do think he put in one of the more historic, courageous efforts in any sporting contest and I applaud the guy. Anything else is sour grapes.

You may be faster than me, but you are slower than Floyd and it ain't because he is doping.

[Grant McLean]

It doesn't hurt, I just don't buy it. I don't trust the science and I don't trust the methodology. I also just can't accept that 1 dose of anything raises you to that level of performance overnight. It just doesn't compute.


rob,

respectfully, what does one have to do with the other?

how do you know he took 1 dose?
how do you know his performace was "raised" or "not raised"?
how do you know anything happened overnight?

all we know is the result of 1 test, the science may very well be wrong.
but people are linking two concepts together -- performance enhancement
or not, the ONLY question is what is an accurate explaination for the
testosterone levels from the test??

Screw the stage 17 results. it's got nothing to do with the hot water he's in.
Stop putting the two together. It's like 9/11 + Iraq. It's not linked!

g

[manet]

.
Stop putting the two together. It's like 9/11 + Iraq. It's not linked!

g

and they all moved over on the group W bench

[atmo]

father rapers atmo

[Big Dan]

Sour grapes???????
Always the same excuse...............
Some people have no idea what others would do for money and fame...... :no:

[gasman]

I tend to believe the test and that he is lying even though I wish he wasn't. One way I heard of that he could have had a postive test would to have been using testosterone earlier in the year when training. If he donated a unit of his blood at that time then had it frozen.If he was tranfused after stage 16 he could have then had just enough synthetic testoserone to test positive after stage 17 but not the next day. He probably didn't use it just one day, it doesn't work that way. It also doesn't matter whether or not you think it helps his performance or not. It was banned and that is all that counts.
Sad, I wish him well.

[GoJavs]

The bottom line is that what's hapenned so far has been significant enough for:

1. Phonak to fire Landis.
2. Phonak to cease to exist (i.e. i-shares dropping out)
3. Skoda saying thanks but no thanks to continuing their sponsorship of the Tour.

God knows what else.

If it's credible enough for those things mentioned above to happen, then I buy it completely.

[Archibald]

Sour grapes???????
Always the same excuse...............
Some people have no idea what others would do for money and fame...... :no:
You're projecting again.

To use you own argument against you, you have no idea what Floyd would or wouldn't do for money or fame.

[spiderlake]

What would you do for fame and money? Would you declare your love for Lance (Armstrong but Bass is an acceptable substitute)? Give up steel for carbon? C'mon, everyone has a price, right? What's yours?

Sour grapes???????
Always the same excuse...............
Some people have no idea what others would do for money and fame...... :no:

[mosca]

The bottom line is that what's hapenned so far has been significant enough for:

1. Phonak to fire Landis.
2. Phonak to cease to exist (i.e. i-shares dropping out)
3. Skoda saying thanks but no thanks to continuing their sponsorship of the Tour.

God knows what else.

If it's credible enough for those things mentioned above to happen, then I buy it completely.

These are all political/financial decisions and have little or no basis in Floyd's actual guilt or innocence.

[spiderlake]

Great post. Thanks!

I was looking through some old stuff while visiting my parents house this morning and found a nice, small, handcarved wooden box. Curious, I opened it up and found a Credit Lyonnais medal from the 1999 Tour de L'Avenir (U-25 Tour de France). On the back is engraved "1999 Tour de L'Avenir 1er Classement General par Equipe Saint Prouant-Montbron". Translation: 1st in Team General Classification, Saint Prouant-Montbron.
I (we) won this medal riding for Team Mercury as a stagiere in 1999. Floyd Landis and David Clinger were our Team captains and I slotted in nicely as the 19 year old kid who rode his balls of for the Team and still finished high enough to get the team a good GC time (I remember I finished one rider behing the then current Yellow Jersey on that stage). Anyways... I am drifting.
My point is... Wow. *** is going on?
What seperates Floyd from David from Me from the other guys that were on that Mercury squad? Is it talent? Is it Guts? Is it wreckless abandon?
I wish I had Floyds number because I would love to talk with him. I would like to tell him he was def my hero when I was on Mercury. I probably wouldn't tell him that now he is just becoming another loser by lying to the world. I probably wouldn't tell him about the look in my Moms eyes when I tell her that he is "probably lying". She was so happy when Floyd won. Now what. Now my parents ask Me if he was doping and I have to think about lying to my parents just because I don't want to see that look in their eyes.
What is all this "suppose this and suppose that" bull*****. Why can't people just accept the fact that he failed 2 doping tests? Why? Because it hurts. Thats why.

Fstrthnu

[GoJavs]

These are all political/financial decisions and have little or no basis in Floyd's actual guilt or innocence.

Whatever, dude.

Is this political: He failed the A & B test. That's enough for me. :)

[Big Dan]

What would you do for fame and money? Would you declare your love for Lance (Armstrong but Bass is an acceptable substitute)? Give up steel for carbon? C'mon, everyone has a price, right? What's yours?


Sorry , but I made those decisions a long time ago.
I don't care about money , I didn't cheat to win the Tour de France, so it's not about me.
It's more about you guys that are part of the cult.
Yes, the cult of Livestrong....... :p

[Grant McLean]

The bottom line is that what's hapenned so far has been significant enough for:

1. Phonak to fire Landis.
2. Phonak to cease to exist (i.e. i-shares dropping out)
3. Skoda saying thanks but no thanks to continuing their sponsorship of the Tour.

God knows what else.

If it's credible enough for those things mentioned above to happen, then I buy it completely.

Are you suggesting any of that makes him guilty?

to your point #1, it's in the pro tour rules: test positive = you get fired.
there's no debate. you're out the door.

If I-shares drops out 100% because they don't want to be associated with a
this scandal, what difference does it make to I-shares whether or not Floyd
is guilty? The damage is done.

g

[harlond]

rob,

respectfully, what does one have to do with the other?

how do you know he took 1 dose?
how do you know his performace was "raised" or "not raised"?
how do you know anything happened overnight?

all we know is the result of 1 test, the science may very well be wrong.
but people are linking two concepts together -- performance enhancement
or not, the ONLY question is what is an accurate explaination for the
testosterone levels from the test??

Screw the stage 17 results. it's got nothing to do with the hot water he's in.
Stop putting the two together. It's like 9/11 + Iraq. It's not linked!

gGrant, I have read many of your posts and found you to be an informed and intelligent poster, but I regret to say that I do not agree. IMO performance enhancement is the essence of the argument that FL "cheated." If he didn't obtain PE on stage 17, then IMO FL is still the deserving winner. Sure, he may have violated the UCI's rules, but that's not the same thing as cheating at all (here I should say ATMO, because I know not everyone agrees) and therefore it's not the "ONLY question" or even the most important one. Now in the rules of WADA and the UCI, these things are not linked, but that is one reason so many of us view those organizations with, well, let's say, not respect. That's why your "real" redux doesn't work for me.

[GoJavs]

Are you suggesting any of that makes him guilty?

to your point #1, it's in the pro tour rules: test positive = you get fired.
there's no debate. you're out the door.

If I-shares drops out 100% because they don't want to be associated with a
this scandal, what difference does it make to I-shares whether or not Floyd
is guilty? The damage is done.

g

You know what makes him guilt? The A & B Test. You know how that's associated with anything?

WELL, given that so many people are trying to discredit the lab (and the test), I would expect that Phonak (and other potential sponsors) would give Landis the benefit of the doubt - UNLESS they DONT believe the argument against the test and the lab. :)

[spiderlake]

What's that quote about assume?? Seems fitting. Have a great night!

Sorry , but I made those decisions a long time ago.
I don't care about money , I didn't cheat to win the Tour de France, so it's not about me.
It's more about you guys that are part of the cult.
Yes, the cult of Livestrong....... :p

[GoJavs]

...Sure, he may have violated the UCI's rules, but that's not the same thing as cheating at all...

You lost me there. Have a nice night everyone! :)

[Archibald]

These are all political/financial decisions and have little or no basis in Floyd's actual guilt or innocence.
Exactly.

We know that Floyd failed two urinalysis tests conducted by a lab that has a history of not following their own procedures and leaking sensitive and confidential information to the press. Someone is obviously in someone else's pocket. That hardly makes them the paragon of reliability that I'd use to prematurely judge anyone's guilt or innocence.

That's all we know. Everything else is conjecture at this point. Failing a urinalysis is not in itself proof of doping since the testing itself has a margin of error, it's merely a branch on the governing body's decision tree. Unfortunately for all involved, it's going to be a long, drawn out process to arrive at the final judgement and when that comes, we'll know whether Floyd is guilty or not just like we did with Tyler.

[manet]

father rapers atmo

And creating a nuisance

[Big Dan]

What's that quote about assume?? Seems fitting. Have a great night!


Livestrong buddy.......... :p

[GoJavs]

...Someone is obviously in someone else's pocket...

How exactly do you know that, Archie? Or are you just projecting your own personal insecurities? :D

[spiderlake]

Yawn..... what livestrong has to do with Floyd is beyond me but at least you are consistent with your schtick! Props for that!

Livestrong buddy.......... :p

[Fixed]

fstnthnu you got soul bro .... imho
cheers

[Archibald]

How exactly do you know that, Archie? Or are you just projecting your personal insecurities? :D
I think it's well known at this point that the lab in question is very closely tied to Lequipe since that's who they're leaking their info to. Why do you suppose the lab does that?

[Grant McLean]

Grant, I have read many of your posts and found you to be an informed and intelligent poster, but I regret to say that I do not agree. IMO performance enhancement is the essence of the argument that FL "cheated." If he didn't obtain PE on stage 17, then IMO FL is still the deserving winner. Sure, he may have violated the UCI's rules, but that's not the same thing as cheating at all (here I should say ATMO, because I know not everyone agrees) and therefore it's not the "ONLY question" or even the most important one. Now in the rules of WADA and the UCI, these things are not linked, but that is one reason so many of us view those organizations with, well, let's say, not respect. That's why your "real" redux doesn't work for me.

thanks for reading... help me, I don't really undertand your post.

Floyd is not accused of cheating, he's accused of failing a test.
We're never going to REALLY know if Floyd took performace enhancement unless
he admits it.
We only know what the test says. It's the interpretation of the test says he doped,
but that doesn't really matter in this case... the failed test is enough to get
you kicked out.

Ok, that's good enough for me, and until the day someone explains to me why
the test is bunk, i'll take for certain that Floyd doesn't get to be the winner.
It means nothing to me that he "cheated" or rode well on stage 17, or if
they all do it, or not. The way the rules work, the test is king. If the test
is wrong, then someone with no horse in this race needs to tell us why.



g

[Big Dan]

Yawn..... what livestrong has to do with Floyd is beyond me but at least you are consistent with your schtick! Props for that!


Livestrong dude....... :p

[GoJavs]

Yawn..... what livestrong has to do with Floyd is beyond me but at least you are consistent with your schtick! Props for that!

Let me see......Livestrong....Lance Armstrong....former teammate of Floyd Landis...Lance, who's favorite technique to fend-off doping allegations was DENY DENY DENY....Now, Landis, the new hero, who's favorite excuse to fend-off FAILED DOPING TESTS is DENY DENY DENY.....Get it Darrin?

Oh, I almost forgot. Both former teammates of the man with the Chimeric Twin, who continues to DENY DENY DENY.

[CNY rider]

I don't think it matters if the drugs (taken or not) did anything to enhance performance. The rules, and penalties for infractions, were made clear to the cyclists long before Stage 17. If you can't abide by the rules, then don't participate. My employer comes up with all kinds of policies, and there are times where I don't like them. I work to try and change them when I can but ultimately if I can't abide by them, I will have to leave and find another job. Once Floyd agreed to abide by the rules at the beginning of the season, it didn't matter what the actual effect of his illegitimate actions was. It's the rulebreaking that's penalized.

[GoJavs]

I think it's well known at this point that the lab in question is very closely tied to Lequipe since that's who they're leaking their info to. Why do you suppose the lab does that?

I really don't know, Archie. I've tried to keep my personal feelings about things in check in all this, you know.

Leaks? No, they don't happen elsewhere! :rolleyes:

Grand jury testimony involving the Andreu's? Leaked. Grand jury testimony of Barry Bonds admitting to using the cream and the clear? Leaked.

Leaks......we make & take them every day.

Good night, Arch-man.

[Grant McLean]

Exactly.

We know that Floyd failed two urinalysis tests conducted by a lab that has a history of not following their own procedures and leaking sensitive and confidential information to the press.


So leaking the results = they test wasn't done correctly?
You're really Oliver Stone right?

g

[GoJavs]

Let me add, Archie, that the terrible, evil lab you speak of is one of ONLY about 30 in the world that's certified to carry out these tests. Yet, that's not good enough for anyone....especially Armstrong's & Landis' attorneys.

C'mon. :confused:

[JohnS]

And creating a nuisanceAnother case of American blind justice.

[Grant McLean]

Using the same logic that links and associations together the "evil lab" with newspaper conspiracies
could be used to paint Lance with doping guilt... but it holds no credibility
either way you try to work it.

Tyler + Roberto + Floyd + Ferrari = Lance?? it sounds great, but you need
more than innuendo, just like discrediting the lab results becuse someone
got a scoop. try again. It's laughable that the pro Lancer's blame a french
lab conspiracy, and the anti Lancer's blame the Postal conspiracy...

g

[BBB]

I really don't know, Archie. I've tried to keep my personal feelings about things in check in all this, you know.

Leaks? No, they don't happen elsewhere! :rolleyes:

Grand jury testimony involving the Andreu's? Leaked. Grand jury testimony of Barry Bonds admitting to using the cream and the clear? Leaked.

Leaks......we make & take them every day.

Good night, Arch-man.

Hey don't forget the UCI report about the leak being leaked!!

[Archibald]

Let me see......Livestrong....Lance Armstrong....former teammate of Floyd Landis...Lance, who's favorite technique to fend-off doping allegations was DENY DENY DENY....Now, Landis, the new hero, who's favorite excuse to fend-off FAILED DOPING TESTS is DENY DENY DENY.....Get it Darrin?

Oh, I almost forgot. Both former teammates of the man with the Chimeric Twin, who continues to DENY DENY DENY.
GoJavs, just so I can better understand where you're coming from...if you were wrongly accused of something, you would automatically plead guilty, because to be accused confirms your guilt, right?

Tyler went through the whole process and the evidence he presented in his defense was not found compelling. He was found guilty of cheating and suspended accordingly.

[Grant McLean]

GoJavs, just so I can better understand where you're coming from...if you were wrongly accused of something, you would automatically plead guilty, because to be accused confirms your guilt, right?

Tyler went through the whole process and the evidence he presented in his defense was not found compelling. He was found guilty of cheating and suspended accordingly.

I'm not sure I follow...
There's a BIG difference between being "wrongly accused" and FAILING a test
that the science is accepted.

Show me that the test is bunk, and i'll have more sympathy for them.

g

[harlond]

Floyd is not accused of cheating, he's accused of failing a test. . . . the failed test is enough to get you kicked out.

Ok, that's good enough for me, and until the day someone explains to me why
the test is bunk, i'll take for certain that Floyd doesn't get to be the winner.
It means nothing to me that he "cheated" or rode well on stage 17, or if
they all do it, or not. The way the rules work, the test is king. If the test
is wrong, then someone with no horse in this race needs to tell us why.It's not enough for me that the test is right. It's not enough to know that FL is rightly found to have failed the test (at least not without reason to believe it's a pretty clean peleton). Handing the victory to Pereiro because he administered his medical program better, that's not good enough either. I want to know that FL's violation of the rules affected the outcome of the race, before they give the victory to someone else. You point out, correctly, that under the UCI's rules, whether he obtained performance enhancement on stage 17 is not linked to whether he will be kicked out. But it should be. The race is not a lottery and the UCI's rules shouldn't make it one, but they have.

[Archibald]

So leaking the results = they test wasn't done correctly?
You're really Oliver Stone right?

g
I never said that and you seem to be missing the greater point. Labs get results by adhering to processes and procedures to minimize the chance of faulty results. If they can't or won't control the distribution of the results of those tests as they're supposed to, how can we be confident that they're controlling their other processes? We can't, it makes them suspect, just like Floyd is suspect.

[GoJavs]

GoJavs, just so I can better understand where you're coming from...if you were wrongly accused of something, you would automatically plead guilty, because to be accused confirms your guilt, right?

Tyler went through the whole process and the evidence he presented in his defense was not found compelling. He was found guilty of cheating and suspended accordingly.

Let me see? If I were wrongly accused of something? Is that your personal belief? That Landis was wrongfully accused? Again, Archie, I'm not sure if your personal feelings (that may be seeded in deeper issues) have anything to do with this discussion. But, I'll indulge you....

Sure, I would DENY DENY DENY. Hey! It worked for OJ! But, wait Tyler couldn't compel authorities to believe, yet he still DENIES DENIES DENIES....How does that work? What evidence exactly did Tyler present really? If I recall he presented theories....

[GoJavs]

I never said that and you seem to be missing the greater point. Labs get results by adhering to processes and procedures to minimize the chance of faulty results. If they can't or won't control the distribution of the results of those tests as they're supposed to, how can we be confident that they're controlling their other processes? We can't, it makes them suspect, just like Floyd is suspect.

Archie - again, the lab has proven that their processes are good enough to earn a very prestigious and exclusive certification. I've actually heard doctors say that the French lab is actually quite good. Who leaked what? How do you know that the leak came from the lab and not from the UCI?

[harlond]

I don't think it matters if the drugs (taken or not) did anything to enhance performance. The rules, and penalties for infractions, were made clear to the cyclists long before Stage 17. If you can't abide by the rules, then don't participate. . . . It's the rulebreaking that's penalized.If that were true, we'd have a perfectly clean peleton. We don't have that, which leaves us to struggle with the question whether the victory should be taken from the guy who got caught and given to the guy who didn't.

[Grant McLean]

It's not enough for me that the test is right. It's not enough to know that FL is rightly found to have failed the test (at least not without reason to believe it's a pretty clean peleton). Handing the victory to Pereiro because he administered his medical program better, that's not good enough either. I want to know that FL's violation of the rules affected the outcome of the race, before they give the victory to someone else. You point out, correctly, that under the UCI's rules, whether he obtained performance enhancement on stage 17 is not linked to whether he will be kicked out. But it should be. The race is not a lottery and the UCI's rules shouldn't make it one, but they have.

hey, i'm right there with you, but it's all we have.


g

[ada@prorider.or]

my deepest condolance to
landis who lost his father in law

[stevep]

sad story took a much worse turn.
good luck to floyd and his family.
hope they survive the sadness.
the other thing is just a bike race.

[harlond]

hey, i'm right there with you, but it's all we have.Yeah, that's why I hate the UCI and WADA and believe that they, not the riders, are the problem.

[Grant McLean]

Yeah, that's why I hate the UCI and WADA and believe that they, not the riders, are the problem.

ya, plenty-o-blame to go around.


g

[Archibald]

I'm not sure I follow...
There's a BIG difference between being "wrongly accused" and FAILING a test
that the science is accepted.

Show me that the test is bunk, and i'll have more sympathy for them.

g
You're missing the point again. Javs was complaining that those accused "deny, deny, deny." If you're innocent, what else are you supposed to do?

[Grant McLean]

You're missing the point again. Javs was complaining that those accused "deny, deny, deny." If you're innocent, what else are you supposed to do?


I'm not missing any of the points, so you can stop saying that everytime I post.

I choose to frame my response to the point I wish to make, not for your
pleasure.

To answer your question, if you fail a test that you don't think is correct,
show how the test is faulty. In your earlier post, you suggested the lab's
credibility is suspect. How about some cases of how they got results wrong?
They have performed thousands of tests, give us an example of a case
where it was proved they got it wrong?

g

[Ginger]

I think it odd the lab only found one irregular result for the entire race. That it just so happened to be the winner? Makes me think that there is some complicity somewhere.

[manet]

I think it odd the lab only found one irregular result for the entire race. That it just so happened to be the winner? Makes me think that there is some complicity somewhere. I don't think they've proven anything yet.

now jessica...

[manet]

.

[Grant McLean]

I think it odd the lab only found one irregular result for the entire race. That it just so happened to be the winner? Makes me think that there is some complicity somewhere.

Just to be more precise, there was 1 irregular result of the "tests taken",
not of the entire race. Not everyone is tested every day, only the stage
winner get tested, and a couple of others. If you come in 150th, you may
get a random test, but it's a lot less likely. Out of the sample size, it's far
more likely that the winner would be tested much more often.

g

[GoJavs]

Prove it, Ginger, please. ;)

[Serpico]

I think it odd the lab only found one irregular result for the entire race. That it just so happened to be the winner? Makes me think that there is some complicity somewhere.

Châtenay-Malabry killed JFK
.
.

[Needs Help]

John Eustice:
statement #1:
I've lived this sport for 35 years and know the European professional cycling circuit intimately

statment #2:
Testosterone has limited effect, and in any case must be used in a cumulative manner; it is not a one-day wonder, like taking a shot of amphetamines.

statement #3:
Landis had an ironclad reputation in the racing world as a clean rider.

Statement #2 and #3 belie statement #1, therefore, in my opinion, John Eustice has no credibility.

[Ginger]

Prove it, Ginger, please. ;)
Not my job. Actually...
As far as I know, unless we have some interesting lurkers here on the forum; it isn't the job of any one of us to prove or disprove that Floyd (or any one else) did or did not take performance enhancing drugs, or that the lab is or is not guilty of some sort of complicity in the situation.

Sample size or no, considering how many people believe that all pro cyclists dope, you'd think that they would come up with more than one non-typical sample.

[GoJavs]

Then I guess we best keep our opinions to ourselves then.

You can keep your complicity theory to yourself and I'll keep my "I'm tired of hearing Lance, Floyd and Tyler deny everything" rants to myself....

There, now we can bring back the joy to the board. :beer:

[Grant McLean]

Sample size or no, considering how many people believe that all pro cyclists dope, you'd think that they would come up with more than one non-typical sample.

Have we already forgotten about all the guys that didn't get to start the race?

:)

g

[Ginger]

Grant,

Those riders were pulled by their teams. They weren't tested into not starting.


I'll keep my "I'm tired of hearing Lance, Floyd and Tyler deny everything" rants to myself....


Um...why would you do that?


Does anyone have a euro amount on how much it costs to run these tests?

[GoJavs]

Grant,

Those riders were pulled by their teams. They weren't tested into not starting.

Um...why would you do that?

Does anyone have a euro amount on how much it costs to run these tests?

------
Whatever :cool:

[Grant McLean]

Grant,

Those riders were pulled by their teams. They weren't tested into not starting.



Back up a second, I feel like i'm missing something, Ginger.
What point are you making? The tests aren't catching everyone who dopes?
I'm down with that notion.

Nobody tested positive at last years tour, yet there are serious allegations that
about 10 of the top riders are dopers. I'm not understanding what
"not" testing positive says about anything, other than it's super-likely that
it's possible to dope and not get caught.

BTW, The riders had to be pulled by their teams in accordance with the ProTour rules, they had no choice.

g

[Ginger]

Nobody tested positive at last years tour, yet there are serious allegations that
about 10 of the top riders are dopers. I'm not understanding what
"not" testing positive says about anything, other than it's super-likely that
it's possible to dope and not get caught.




I'm saying the system is flawed and that allows the lab to loose some credibility. Unless they're sampling every single racer at least once in the tour and testing the samples from each one at least once during the race, all they're doing is providing a panecea to the masses: "look, we tested a few of these guys and every one of the dopers passed so it's a clean race."
If they tested more rigorusly, and more anonomously (if the lab gets five samples to test on a particular day, rather than 150, they know that one of those samples is from the winner of the stage, yes? And I admit I don't know the numbers. I'm just being devils advocate here) and *then* came up with non-compliant results that happened to come from the winner of the stage; it would have more credible value in my view. That's all.


GoJavs, you should have left the "sweetheart" in. It was cute.

[swoop]

i'm sad to report that his father in law's death is being reported as a suicide. floyd may have a public persona to be accountable towards.. but in the end... he's just regular folk like you and me. no matter what the circumstances, this is gut wrenchingly sad. i'm going to try and not make any more know it all comments about the man... and just focus on sending out empathy and condolences. i can't imagine any single person having so much ****e crash into them at one time.

[Archibald]

I'm not missing any of the points, so you can stop saying that everytime I post. I choose to frame my response to the point I wish to make, not for your pleasure.If that is the case, then apply a little intellectual honesty and quit misstating my comments to infer I'm saying something I'm not.

To answer your question, if you fail a test that you don't think is correct, show how the test is faulty. Exactly and again you missed my earlier point or you're intentionally disregarding it, to whit: "Failing a urinalysis is not in itself proof of doping since the testing itself has a margin of error, it's merely a branch on the governing body's decision tree. Unfortunately for all involved, it's going to be a long, drawn out process to arrive at the final judgement and when that comes, we'll know whether Floyd is guilty or not just like we did with Tyler."


In your earlier post, you suggested the lab's credibility is suspect. How about some cases of how they got results wrong? They have performed thousands of tests, give us an example of a case where it was proved they got it wrong?

g
I have no idea how many tests they've performed or results they've gotten wrong. If the process works like it should, we'd never hear about a false positive, don't you agree? Regardless, there have been athletes exonerated from positive lab results due to handling or procedural errors.

Here is a paper (http://www.amstat.org/publications/chance/172.berry.pdf) from 2004 on problems with testosterone testing in athletes. Draw from it what you will.

To spell it out for you, here is my position: Laboratories are not infallible. Until Landis has had an opportunity to present his defense and his case judged based on its merit by those in a position to do so, I will refrain from assuming he's guilty.

[gasman]

.

Here is a paper (http://www.amstat.org/publications/chance/172.berry.pdf) from 2004 on problems with testosterone testing in athletes. Draw from it what you will.

To spell it out for you, here is my position: Laboratories are not infallible. Until Landis has had an opportunity to present his defense and his case judged based on its merit by those in a position to do so, I will refrain from assuming he's guilty.[/QUOTE]

I know Mary somewhat and have taken care of her during some of her surgeries. She probably was wrongly accused but the article does not address what I feel is the crux of the Landis case-he had synthetic testosterone detected by a reliable test at a reliable lab-twice. This in my mind looks very damning.
Again, I think he was using earlier in the season or off season-he gave a unit of blood, got it back after stage 16 and was postive after 17.

Many athletes make statements such as "I have never tested positive." They rarely say,"I have never used performance enhancing drugs. " Big difference between these statements. In the first they don't have to lie, in the second they may have to lie.

[my2cents]

She probably was wrongly accused but the article does not address what I feel is the crux of the Landis case-he had synthetic testosterone detected by a reliable test at a reliable lab-twice. This in my mind looks very damning. [/QUOTE]

I will try to look for the quote regarding what i am about to say (I think it was cyclingnews, but I'm not sure) but It is my understanding that the synthetic test CAN be very accurate but that the test is VERY hard to do properly and according to the guy who invented the test, there is a VERY high false-positive rate due to miscalibration of equipment and such, and that is why only 1 or 2 drug testing labs (out or approx. 30) still use the test. I believe the inventor said that he would withhold judgement until he saw the actual test results, that there is another test that can check for the same thing and that if he tested positive on both tests then you would have something but just using this one test isn't NOT reliable by itself.

[BBB]

Just to be more precise, there was 1 irregular result of the "tests taken",
not of the entire race. Not everyone is tested every day, only the stage
winner get tested, and a couple of others. If you come in 150th, you may
get a random test, but it's a lot less likely. Out of the sample size, it's far
more likely that the winner would be tested much more often.

g

There's about 300 tests for the entire race.

But you're right, far more likely that race leader or the stage winner would get tested.

Hey, does anyone remember Delgado?

[gasman]

[

I will try to look for the quote regarding what i am about to say (I think it was cyclingnews, but I'm not sure) but It is my understanding that the synthetic test CAN be very accurate but that the test is VERY hard to do properly and according to the guy who invented the test, there is a VERY high false-positive rate due to miscalibration of equipment and such, and that is why only 1 or 2 drug testing labs (out or approx. 30) still use the test. I believe the inventor said that he would withhold judgement until he saw the actual test results, that there is another test that can check for the same thing and that if he tested positive on both tests then you would have something but just using this one test isn't NOT reliable by itself.[/QUOTE]

Interesting-It would be nice to know the false-positive rate and how hard the test is to perform accurately.

[catulle]

One thing is clear, though. L. Armstrong is a great businessman. He knows who to pay and how to invest his money, atmo.

[spiderlake]

deleted

Let me see......Livestrong....Lance Armstrong....former teammate of Floyd Landis...Lance, who's favorite technique to fend-off doping allegations was DENY DENY DENY....Now, Landis, the new hero, who's favorite excuse to fend-off FAILED DOPING TESTS is DENY DENY DENY.....Get it Darrin?

Oh, I almost forgot. Both former teammates of the man with the Chimeric Twin, who continues to DENY DENY DENY.

[GoJavs]

Aha, I get it now. The guilty by association thing. Kinda like the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon euro-style, right? As I've stated numerous times (feel free to look it up since you and your bro seem to have that kind of time), I am a fan of ALL pro riders to include the guy doing his best to stay ahead of the broom wagon. My opinion of doping, on the other hand, changes on a daily basis. On the one hand, these guys are professionals and why shouldn't they have every competetive advantage afforded them? I am a professional in a particular industry and I do everything possible to be the best I can possibly be. Yes, on occassion, that includes breaking the <gasp> rules. Well, I guess I don't see another hand right now.

See, Darrin, that's too bad. I agreed with all your post except the part where you took a shot at me. That's not nice! Why do you feel the need to make it personal?

So, tell me, since you are a professional, how do you cheat? ;)

[spiderlake]

I agree - no need to get personal so I deleted my post. "cheating" in my line of work involves staying one step ahead (often a futile effort) of "hackers"... There is often a very grey area in the field of information security.

See, Darrin, that's too bad. I agreed with all your post except the part where you took a shot at me. That's not nice! Why do you feel the need to make it personal?

So, tell me, since you are a professional, how do you cheat? ;)

[GoJavs]

Sounds like a cool line of work. :)

[yeehawfactor]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/aug06/aug17news :(

[Elefantino]

Spent the last fortnight touring France and Britain. Wonderful time. Even went into a couple of French bike shops. No one asked me about Landis and, because I speak passable French, no one assumed I was an American. Or if they did, they didn't let on. And there were no Phonak kits for sale.

Anyway, returning I see that not much is different. Landis is still guilty in point of fact and still innocent to who want to believe.

Too bad about Phonak.

What are Danielson's Vuelta podium chances? That is certainly more interesting than rehashing Dopergate, isn't it?

[palincss]

father rapers atmo

And I, I walked over to the, to the bench there, and there is, Group W's
where they put you if you may not be moral enough to join the army after
committing your special crime, and there was all kinds of mean nasty ugly
looking people on the bench there. Mother rapers. Father stabbers. Father
rapers! Father rapers sitting right there on the bench next to me! And
they was mean and nasty and ugly and horrible crime-type guys sitting on the
bench next to me. And the meanest, ugliest, nastiest one, the meanest
father raper of them all, was coming over to me and he was mean 'n' ugly
'n' nasty 'n' horrible and all kind of things and he sat down next to me
and said, "Kid, whad'ya get?" I said, "I didn't get nothing, I had to pay
$50 and pick up the garbage." He said, "What were you arrested for, kid?"
And I said, "Littering." And they all moved away from me on the bench
there, and the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean nasty things, till I
said, "And creating a nuisance." And they all came back, shook my hand,
and we had a great time on the bench, talkin about crime, mother stabbing,
father raping, all kinds of groovy things that we was talking about on the
bench.

-- http://www.arlo.net/resources/lyrics/alices.shtml