headsets - do they NEED bearings?

[vqdriver]

considering how many parts on a bike use bearings, does a headset need to be one of them? i look down at my stem and realize this thing hardly ever goes beyond 10 or 15 degrees, and never in a repeatedly quick fashion. is the whole sealed bearings in a headset thing overkill? would it not do just as well with angled bushings with less weatherproofing and maintenance?

just a shower thought....

[merlinmurph]

OK, I'll bite - how else would you do it?

Remember:
- it should be as friction-free as possible
- even though it normally moves very little, it still has to have the capability of full motion

I'm open to ideas

[vqdriver]

i thought i had read about a frame mfg that was already doing this with the bushing in the op. fork was molded that way as well so it mated with the bottom of the ht.

[Big Dan]

Riders of today are spoiled by the great quality headset available today.
Back in the day we would take the bike in every 3-6 months for BB and headset service.
Yeah Campagnolo stuff.
Nothing to ruin your ride like a rough headset.
Don't get me going about hubs and cones and stuff.

[cmbicycles]

I think it was Cane Creek, maybe fsa... can't remember. Anyway, they used a "space-age material," or plastic for short, as a bushing in the top of one model headset "aer?" and a bearing in the bottom to save weight. No idea if it's still around.

[Cicli]

Yeah, they work better that way.

[saab2000]

What advantage would not having bearings bring?

[echelon_john]

WAY lighter, duh.

What advantage would not having bearings bring?

[MRB]

is the whole sealed bearings in a headset thing overkill?


^ You don't need sealed bearings so much as tight / close tolerances. If you had the pleasure of riding with loose-ball headsets, especially with Aluminum cups, they would easily turn into "indexed steering" if you rode them when they were out of adjustment (loose especially).

[vqdriver]

Well, itd be replaced by something else, so id think whatever savings would be negligible. But would simplify maintenance and installation.

[Frankwurst]

Riders of today are spoiled by the great quality headset available today.
Back in the day we would take the bike in every 3-6 months for BB and headset service.
Yeah Campagnolo stuff.
Nothing to ruin your ride like a rough headset.
Don't get me going about hubs and cones and stuff.

Been down this road. Never took mine in just tore them down and rebuilt them.
But to answer the Op's question, bearings are good and if you learn to understand the purpose they serve you'd probabaly say "yup, headsets need bearings":beer:

[jds108]

https://www.canecreek.com/products/headsets/aer

Scroll down to the section about "norglide" - this is the headset without a bearing. They've been doing it a while. I have no idea how long they hold up, but it can't be long.

[dustyrider]

So I always figured we used bearings because they were replaceable. In fact I'm even fairly certain that a tiny little ball of steel is much cheaper to replace than headset cups or bike frames for that matter...though I've been known to over think things before.;)

[bicycletricycle]

Yes, a lot of little micro inputs help you go straight and stay upright, any friction in the headset will prevent this from working causing the need for more exaggerated inputs to keep your balance and line.

The book bicycle,science talks about this some I think. I have ridden a bike with simple bushings for a headset, it sucked (Sample of one not exactly conclusive).

If you ever try to ride a bicycle with a badly worn headset (when they have a sort of notch it wants to settle in in the middle) no handed you will notice that it is much harder to do. The little bit of extra pressure required to change directioreally makes a difference (obviously not a perfect experiment)

[nate2351]

considering how many parts on a bike use bearings, does a headset need to be one of them? i look down at my stem and realize this thing hardly ever goes beyond 10 or 15 degrees, and never in a repeatedly quick fashion. is the whole sealed bearings in a headset thing overkill? would it not do just as well with angled bushings with less weatherproofing and maintenance?

just a shower thought....

Try a headset with a bushing (like the Cane Creek AER, which as a mechanic I loath) and you'd find that even though you aren't using full range, a bearing works much, much better.

I speak from experience.

[vqdriver]

never mind, apparently i am not the only bathroom thinker out there. this very question was posed about a decade ago and with some good counterpoint.

note, i guess look was the mfg who made something akin to a bushing based headset, but it was on their hinged front end for track bikes.

bonus - the late great sheldon brown provided some input to that thread.

thread here
http://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/279763-why-headset-bearings.html

[Black Dog]

never mind, apparently i am not the only bathroom thinker out there. this very question was posed about a decade ago and with some good counterpoint.

note, i guess look was the mfg who made something akin to a bushing based headset, but it was on their hinged front end for track bikes.

bonus - the late great sheldon brown provided some input to that thread.

thread here
http://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/279763-why-headset-bearings.html

It is a good question and the snarky and pseudo-condesending replies are not justified. I think that any bushing system would suffer from excess friction that would have to be overcome with frequent lubrication that would negate the low maintenance goal. Modern head sets like Chris King and Cane Creek will last more or less forever with little to no maintenance if installed properly on a frame that is prepped well.

[Ralph]

My 50th Anniversary Schwinn Paramount came with a Stronglite roller bearing headset. It didn't turn as smoothly as a round bearing headset....but didn't seem to wear out either......as compared to most of the caged or loose ball bearing systems of it's time.

[saab2000]

Riders of today are spoiled by the great quality headset available today.
Back in the day we would take the bike in every 3-6 months for BB and headset service.
Yeah Campagnolo stuff.
Nothing to ruin your ride like a rough headset.



I agree with your first point - headsets today are mindless, perfect components. They sucked in years past. As in ride ruiningly bad.

That said, Campagnolo headsets are great, when installed on good frames. I own three bikes with Record threadless headsets and they are, simply put, perfect.

They are Serotta, Pacenti and Zanconato and require zero maintenance and are smoother and even more fine than Kings and other premium brands. So Campagnolo does do bearings right, sometimes. :beer:

[Peter P.]

This thread seems to be tangentially concerned with headset life.

Other than proper adjustment, I can think of no other aspect of headset maintenance that is as important as the following.

Jobst Brandt claimed (http://yarchive.net/bike/head_bearing.html) that headset failure was not due to poor adjustment but from lack of lubrication. That lack of lubrication was caused by the minimal movement of headset bearings, and impact forces essentially "squirting" out lubrication from around the bearings.

While I couldn't find the exact post from Jobst, he also claimed the solution to headset indexing was to rotate the fork from extreme left to right before every ride, ensuring distribution of grease around the bearings. I religiously do this on my bikes as it only takes a second or two, and haven't had to replace a headset in years. It's stupidly simple but it seems to be working.

[Buzz Killington]

Thomson Nyliner bushings have been used on full custom track bikes, primarily to keep the front end surface area as small as possible. The primary disadvantage of bushings is stiction as compared to a ball bearing. Obviously in a headset you want to be able to turn the handlebars with as little input as necessary.

A ball bearing wants to do full revolutions. Not oscillate back and forth. You can overcome the problems of oscillating motion by using a full complement bearing that has no retainer between the balls.

In reality, the loading on a headset bearing is rather light in the whole scheme of things. A well made bearing, either ball or roller, should last a long time. There are some advantages of using a roller bearing due to the load paths, but overkill in my opinion.

[saab2000]

It is a good question and the snarky and pseudo-condesending replies are not justified. I think that any bushing system would suffer from excess friction that would have to be overcome with frequent lubrication that would negate the low maintenance goal. Modern head sets like Chris King and Cane Creek will last more or less forever with little to no maintenance if installed properly on a frame that is prepped well.

My response wasn't intended as snarky. I've also thought bearings on something that only rotates a few degrees as something odd. But I can't thing of a better solution.

[Black Dog]

My response wasn't intended as snarky. I've also thought bearings on something that only rotates a few degrees as something odd. But I can't thing of a better solution.

Sorry if you thought I was calling you out. I was not. I agree with you that a hammer is still the best solution for even a very small nail.

[zap]

Try a headset with a bushing (like the Cane Creek AER, which as a mechanic I loath) and you'd find that even though you aren't using full range, a bearing works much, much better.

I speak from experience.

Have one. CC AER2.

Constant fiddle to keep the norglide bearing adjusted just right. It was also not as smooth as bearings. I eventually removed the norglide related bits and put in the appropriate bearing.

[Gummee]

Have one. CC AER2.

Constant fiddle to keep the norglide bearing adjusted just right. It was also not as smooth as bearings. I eventually removed the norglide related bits and put in the appropriate bearing.

I'm pretty sure you can retrofit an AL bearing in the place of that bushing. Contact CC or your LBS to make certain

M

[John H.]

Yes you can.
Anyone who has actually ridden the headset with a bushing on top has wised up and replaced the bushing with an actual bearing.

I'm pretty sure you can retrofit an AL bearing in the place of that bushing. Contact CC or your LBS to make certain

M

[vertr]

Yes you can.
Anyone who has actually ridden the headset with a bushing on top has wised up and replaced the bushing with an actual bearing.

I didn't realize bushings in headsets were a thing?

[bfd]

This is an interesting thread. I thought the "upgrade" for headsets was to get one with angular cartridge bearings like those found in Cane Creek, Chris King, Shimano and many others.

In the old days, headsets required like 22 5/32" ball bearings. If you didn't adjust right and/or lube them sufficiently, you ended up with "index steering" and needed a new headset.

Now, it's all basically plug and play. The angular cartridge bearings are basically dropped in and with threadless steerer tubes, tighten down. Done. No fuss!

Now, that doesn't mean something new will come along in the future that is lighter and easier to use, but I haven't seen anything like that, at least not yet!

Btw, someone mentioned the late Jobst Brandt? Here's his take:

Shimano, Chris King, Cane Creek and others, offer angular contact, full ball complement, spherically aligned cartridge bearings. The Shimano cartridge bearings have contact seals, not exposed to weather, to retain grease for life of the bearing. The races are sufficiently reentrant that they snap permanently together with sufficient preload to prevent rocking (fretting) motion perpendicular to the rotational axis. Spherical steel rings which move as plain bearings against an aluminum housing support the cartridge bearing to absorb otherwise damaging, out-of-plane, motion while the cartridge bearing does the steering.

What's not to like?!

Good Luck!